The God Who Wasn't There -- Something Funny's Up

[jpholding]

Hey all,

I'm going to check into this as best I can, but something odd is happening here. A reader had bought me a copy of this DVD, and he got some sort of bulk mail message from Flemming (the maker of the film) asking him to check out a site called "waroneaster.org". But it gets an error message. So, for the moment, does Flemming's weblog.

But a cached copy of that weblog reveals this 4/7 entry:

Something big is coming up in the next few days.

Beyond Belief Media and The God Who Wasn't There are going to make news.

And Christian leaders around the country are going to be howling.

And Easter will never be the same.

Do you want to be part of it? If you are an adventurous atheist willing to become a covert operative for Beyond Belief Media, email me with your phone number and I'll let you know what you can do. (Note: It actually involves leaving your house--this is not some little Web thing.) If you are selected for a mission, there's a signed copy of The God Who Wasn't There in it for you.

And the glory. Oh, the glory...


At the same time, sales of the DVD have jumped enormously. My reader noted:

I checked it out at Amazon, which reports that, IN ONE DAY, it jumped from #1763 in sales to #132. OF ALL DVDS SOLD AT AMAZON.

Speculation....

Flemming's little call was for his friends to buy copies of the DVD and then pass it out door to door or some other way.

Maybe he's now working out a new website -- or maybe he didn't get the support he wanted and his ego exploded.

Maybe it's time I hit him harder, eh? :ahem:

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

JP,

you might be interested in this too:
http://www.rusiriusradio.com/

(when the show is uploaded)

from JP (haha)

Edit: it's the mp3 in the first log entry - warning: contains offensive sexual ideas re Gospel of Judas & Catholicism. Flemming is a member of the ULC :lol:

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

the plan is to hide copies of the DVD in churches.

[jpholding]

These people sound like they have buckets over their heads. :glare:

I wonder if this is the best sort of show Flemming could get on.

Whoa! I was close to right about the door to door thing! :hehe: He's delivering copies to churches, but HIDING them, not presenting them outright.

What a coward! :lol:

More as I listen on....

[jpholding]

Now plugging his theories viz Doherty. If you choose to listen be aware that he and the hosts spend a few minutes making jokes about Catholics and pedophilia. Definitely the high end sort of people here who would be able to refute NT Wright. :hehe:

[jpholding]

Just mentioned Attis and Mithra! Dork rating: 1 million. :rofl:

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

weird, the beast movie website is down too. That's likely the message board he mentioned.

[jpholding]

Also says he's having people hide plastic Easter eggs with stupid arguments inside to the effect that Jesus is the same as Santa and the Easter bunny. :lmbo:

Maybe it's good the hosts are so stupid. They waste so much time on jokes he can barely talk at times. :hehe:

Yeesh, people PAY to subscribe to this stuff????

[jpholding]

Flemming (paraphrase): "We're all atheists. Christians are atheists when it comes to Zeus." :lmbo:

Dork rating: 10 billion.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Flemming wants to target Christian kids.

a) Good idea for Christians to evangelise children :teeth:

b) How cowardly is that to avoid dealing with intellectual, informed adults?!?

(Flemming just admitted he likes crackpot theories!)

[jpholding]

I'm at the part where he brags about he how has deconverted people with all this stuff they "didn't know". :lmbo:

Like that Beddru of Japan was a bona fide savior figure, eh? :hehe:

You're slightly ahead of me, Punkish. I just heard that bit about crackpots.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Flemming wants people to turn to religion and drugs. :lolo:

[Christy]

You should make a cartoon about him :teeth:

[jpholding]

You should make a cartoon about him :teeth:

I'm contemplating making a comic reply to his nonsense. A reply DVD would take too long.

They trashed Islam for a bit, then tried to get back to the project, but now they're talking about some Batboy movie. Now it's over. And the sites are still down.

I may make a little note of this on What's New.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

ah,

according to a thread of that skeptical radio site that asks for monetary donations (ahen), Flemming's sites are down because of a Denial of Service attack.

additional:

Our server (which hosts waroneaster.org, thegodmovie.com as well as
Brian's blog) is currently suffering a "denial of service" attack. A
DoS attack is an organized, criminal attempt to overload a server
with fake requests. (More information below.)

Our web host is working right now to fix the problem. After we get
the site back up, we will use any information available to
investigate the source and pursue law-enforcement remedies.

Unfortunately, we have no estimate on the return of site operations.

Thank you for your patience.

Sincerely,
Beyond Belief Media

Can you guess what I did? :eek:(actually this info was posted on Infidel Guy thread as well, but yes I emailed Flemming...lol)

[jpholding]

Our server (which hosts waroneaster.org, thegodmovie.com as well as
Brian's blog) is currently suffering a "denial of service" attack. A
DoS attack is an organized, criminal attempt to overload a server
with fake requests. (More information below.)

Oh. Like was done to me once?

I guess he would rather we trapise on his property and drop Chick tracts. That would only be a case of criminal trespassing. :hehe:

Unfortunately, we have no estimate on the return of site operations.

Smells fishy. I was able to get Tekton back up by asking for more bandwidth, immediately.

Can you guess what I did? :eek:(actually this info was posted on Infidel Guy thread as well, but yes I emailed Flemming...lol)

Did you tell him I'm thinking of toasting him? :lol:

[sc_q_jayce]

Man, I've always wanted a copy! I hope we get some gifts for the weekend! I've always wanted to see how my former professor (he's now dead) Alan Dundes makes a fool of himself... he kind of made a fool of himself in class, but le-sigh.

I just want a copy because it sounds fun. :(

[jpholding]

Man, I've always wanted a copy! I hope we get some gifts for the weekend! I've always wanted to see how my former professor (he's now dead) Alan Dundes makes a fool of himself... he kind of made a fool of himself in class, but le-sigh.

I just want a copy because it sounds fun. :(

As I recall Dundes wasn't all that bad. I doubt if he realized what he was being (ab)used for. He just gave the old Raglan reduction.

I loaned the DVD to someone and I hope to get it back within the week. A toon reply may be the way to go.

[Mark_S]

WOE site is back up. I see they used the downtime to update their site with all the strikes.

Wow! They planted a whopping 9 DVDs so far!

[jpholding]

WOE site is back up. I see they used the downtime to update their site with all the strikes.

Wow! They planted a whopping 9 DVDs so far!

A sister site (ideologically), rationalresponders.com, says the plan is to set out 666 of the DVDs.

Out of (wow) how many churches in the US? :hehe: Guess they won't hit the Mormon stakes or the Kingdom Halls.

OK. Little boy Brian wants a war, he's got one....and I got just the one here who will be glad to take him down....

Sheila gets to be the Easter bunny! :lol:

[Mark_S]

A sister site (ideologically), rationalresponders.com, says the plan is to set out 666 of the DVDs.

Out of (wow) how many churches in the US? :hehe: Guess they won't hit the Mormon stakes or the Kingdom Halls.

OK. Little boy Brian wants a war, he's got one....and I got just the one here who will be glad to take him down....

Sheila gets to be the Easter bunny! :lol:

Oh btw, The new address for this endevour is: www.a_minor_inconsequential_skirmish_on_easter.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot)

[RumTumTugger]

Oh btw, The new address for this endevour is: www.a_minor_inconsequential_skirmish_on_easter.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot)

:lmbo:

[jpholding]

I wonder, is there any place we can go to annoy Flemming? Is he on some forum somewhere? I think he bought ads to publicize his effort; maybe I can do that too in the same places?

Ideas?

I'll try to draw up a two page initial comic today.

[Darth Executor]

I wonder, is there any place we can go to annoy Flemming? Is he on some forum somewhere? I think he bought ads to publicize his effort; maybe I can do that too in the same places?

Ideas?

I'll try to draw up a two page initial comic today.

I think this forum is your best shot:

http://www.community.thebeastmovie.com/

Although I don't know if he actually interacts with his fans.

[jpholding]

Oooh....look, this was on that board:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseidon/God_Who_Wasnt_There_analysis.htm

This is GDon, who also posts here now and then. Good thrashing of Flemming. This may save me some trouble.

[Cynic Sage]

:popcorn:

[papabryant]

Awwww, go ahead J.P.. You know you want to thump this clown, we all want to see you thump this clown, and its a genuine pleasure in life to witness someone who deserves a comeupance actually get one... lol!

[jpholding]

Awwww, go ahead J.P.. You know you want to thump this clown, we all want to see you thump this clown, and its a genuine pleasure in life to witness someone who deserves a comeupance actually get one... lol!

I'll thump all right (like Thumper the Rabbit), but slower than I was going to. It's not as urgent as I thought, since Mike Licona AND GDon have their full scale replies up. Posting their links will lead to more finds for them until I fully gear up.

Funny quote from waroneaster.org here:

As the author Sam Harris points out in this interview, ridicule is a potent weapon.

Oh good. :hehe: I'm sure they won't mind what's sitting on my coffee table in ink riiiight nooowwww......

I'll load it up with Range Patrol #3 next week.

[papabryant]

Oh good. :hehe: I'm sure they won't mind what's sitting on my coffee table in ink riiiight nooowwww......

I'll load it up with Range Patrol #3 next week.


heheheh.... :pot:

[jpholding]

Geh! Sheila just can't seem to wait. She's already making a nuisance of herself. :hehe:

http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/04/i_have_a_few_things_to_say_abo.html

See April 12 comment (quick, mama may erase it).

[Darth Executor]

Geh! Sheila just can't seem to wait. She's already making a nuisance of herself. :hehe:

http://www.theatheistmama.com/2006/04/i_have_a_few_things_to_say_abo.html

See April 12 comment (quick, mama may erase it).

Meh. I posted something too.

[jpholding]

Meh. I posted something too.

:lmbo: :rofl:

Well, I know you're not "Trish".... :hehe:

Maybe this could be a model for our own side of the war, eh?

[Darth Executor]

:lmbo: :rofl:

Well, I know you're not "Trish".... :hehe:


Nope. Gave her a screwball nomination. She reminds me of this girl I saw at the mall who had a shirt that said "Gays are today's blacks".

Maybe this could be a model for our own side of the war, eh?

Covert ops? I like it already. :thumb: I figured we could make a Christ Myth DVD where we show how Jesus is a rip off of fantasy books and video games.

[Cynic Sage]

Covert ops? I like it already. :thumb: I figured we could make a Christ Myth DVD where we show how Jesus is a rip off of fantasy books and video games.

Of course. Everybody knows that Christian tradition is based off of old DBZ episodes and that Jesus is based of of the mythical Son Goku. Think about it.

Jesus: Miraculous catch of many fish.
Goku: Miraculous catch of one huge fish (half the size of the pond he caught it in).

Jesus: Comes down from heaven.
Goku: Comes down from the heavens (Planet Vegeta in space).

Moses: Parts the Red Sea.
Goku: Parts the sea (with the kamehameha wave).

Jesus: Brought Lazurus back to life.
Goku: Brought Piccolo back to life (with the Dragonballs).

Jesus: Came back to life in a Glorified body.
Goku: Came back to life in a more-powerful-than-before "Super-Saiyan" form (many times over).

And the list goes on...

[Cynic Sage]

Dude, they're comparing themselves to Martin Luther. :lol:

http://www.waroneaster.org/category/battle-reports/

[dizzle]

That one guy who seemed to have an issue spelling everything but the profanity was hilarious!

[Mark_S]

Site's back down again :rofl:

[Mark_S]

Press Release.

War on Easter Battle Front.

The war has temporarily stalled. It seems that our central command website has been overloaded by fundies coming over to peek at our covert operation. Since this website is run on a C64 and an 300 baud acoustic modem we feel this constitutes a denial of service attack. Before this minor setback we have sucessfully planted 11 DVDs! Kudos to KnightofReggie who risked life and limb sneaking the last two copies into a church shrubery at 7am on a Tuesday afternoon. Your bravery won't go unnoticed.

[DesertBerean]

the plan is to hide copies of the DVD in churches.
Oh really. If we should get one, I'll probably get it from whoever finds it, or my pastor. I got a BOM and the New World Translation that way, since they know I'm interested in that stuff.

....if this small but determined band could hack the big bad Mojave Desert that is. :ahem:

[Cynic Sage]

The EAC prepares for the war on Easter.

[attachment]
click thumbnail


(I just wanted to use that pic again :hehe:).

[jpholding]

Jesus: Brought Lazurus back to life.
Goku: Brought Piccolo back to life (with the Dragonballs).

Jesus: Came back to life in a Glorified body.
Goku: Came back to life in a more-powerful-than-before "Super-Saiyan" form (many times over).

And the list goes on...

Then please continue to make it. That's a quality article in the works. :thumb:

I'll have something ready by the end of the day for this crowd that I'll go ahead and upload. Sheila's going to be a little "out of character" but she doesn't mind at all. :hehe:

[jpholding]

Mua haaa haaa...

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere.html

Feel free to spread this around. I have some more ideas to pursue before the day is up. If you'd like to also have some fun, drop me a PM and I'll let you know what I have in mind.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Mua haaa haaa...

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere.html

Feel free to spread this around. I have some more ideas to pursue before the day is up. If you'd like to also have some fun, drop me a PM and I'll let you know what I have in mind.
:lmbo:

[jpholding]

I was thinking I'd post a "testimonial" on War on Easter about how I tried to hide a DVD at a church when this giant rabbit girl came out of the bushes and beat me up, but they screen the entries so that won't work. How about a parody of that testimonial page, then?

Please feel free to write some up for me. I'll add an appropriate toon.

[dizzle]

I added a mention to my blog

http://preteristsite.com/wordpress/?p=126

[jpholding]

I may be wrong, but it looks like Chicken Boy Flemming doesn't have a way for readers to post comments on his blog!

[Darth Executor]

I was thinking I'd post a "testimonial" on War on Easter about how I tried to hide a DVD at a church when this giant rabbit girl came out of the bushes and beat me up, but they screen the entries so that won't work. How about a parody of that testimonial page, then?

Please feel free to write some up for me. I'll add an appropriate toon.

Is this what you were gonna say in the PM? I want to know before I send one. Oh, and which testimonial page? This one?

http://www.waroneaster.org/category/battle-reports/

[jpholding]

Is this what you were gonna say in the PM?

No, something else....drop me one, I think you'll be very fond of my idea. :hehe:

Oh, and which testimonial page? This one?

http://www.waroneaster.org/category/battle-reports/

Yes. I love the latest one from Texas where they got a "bad vibe". :lmbo:

[Darth Executor]

Yes. I love the latest one from Texas where they got a "bad vibe". :lmbo:

Hmm, I got an excellent idea. Since I've been playing Oblivion so much lately maybe I can take a few screenshots from it, doctor them a little and make up a story where a fundy atheist tries to place the DVD in a Mythic Dawn lair. :hehe:

[dizzle]

I sent the tektoon link to American Vision

[jpholding]

I sent the tektoon link to American Vision

Does he have something on the film up?

[dizzle]

He is going to, I received an email announcement of an upcoming project - this kind of stuff, not on the apologetics end per se, but on the ground of defending America's Christian heritage, is right up his alley

[papabryant]

Mua haaa haaa...

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere.html

Feel free to spread this around. I have some more ideas to pursue before the day is up. If you'd like to also have some fun, drop me a PM and I'll let you know what I have in mind.

I've recently got a gig writing an online column for the Florida Times-Union. With your permission J.P. I'll run this by my editor, and see if we can't dig this boy Flemming a little deeper hole to crawl into.

How about this for a headline: "War on Easter WMD Blows Up in Filmmaker's Face" :blush:

[jpholding]

I've recently got a gig writing an online column for the Florida Times-Union. With your permission J.P. I'll run this by my editor, and see if we can't dig this boy Flemming a little deeper hole to crawl into.

I like. :teeth: He seems to make it a habit to run from his mistakes.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

oh yea,

Timothy Freke is the latest to jump on the bandwagon, even though he says he "wouldn't see eye to eye with everything", he "love[s] their audacity". Is that all that counts, huh? (timothyfreke.com, April blog entry)

[jpholding]

I'm drawing up another toon tonight. Hope to get it up tomorrow.

[Darth Executor]

Here's what Reginald Finley (he'll be the protagonist of my parody) ended up looking like in Oblivion:


[attachment=1][attachment=2]

I would have preferred shorter hair, lighter skin and a shiny forehead but that's the best I could do.

[jpholding]

Here's what Reginald Finley (he'll be the protagonist of my parody) ended up looking like in Oblivion:


Wow, he really CAN look like Steve Urkel. :hrm:

It looks like I'll get the DVD tomorrow. I still need two more volunteers for a special project.

[Darth Executor]

Done taking the shots. Kind of annoying since I had to use a program and couldn't get some nice poses. I wanted to end it with Finley riding an unicorn into the sunset. -___-

[lao tzu]

Greetings, JP,

Ironically enough, this is the first I'd heard of this "war on easter" which brings to mind the question as to whether a public spanking of Flemming isn't counterproductive for your position. I did a search over at infidels and found there was indeed a thread about this started on April 8th and apparently dead by the 11th. Majority opinion, almost unanimous in fact, was that the campaign was pretty lame bordering on bad PR for atheists in general.

It seems many of the infidels are aware of specific factual errors in the video, as well. It'll be interesting to see if Flemming goes to the trouble of re-releasing with some of the errors addressed.

As ever, Jesse

[jpholding]

That depends. Couple of things:

1) He's promoting this on radio shows. How much more publicity will he get from his own effort? I'm keeping an eye on it.
2) I expect there will be MORE attention after Easter itself when I assume most of the 666 DVDs will be placed.
3) Regardless, the film is still out there. I'd rather be prepared than caught flat-footed. Who would have thought Da Vinci Code would soar to the top of the best seller list?

I'm keeping an eye out on the level of attention. If it seems to slow, I'll slow; and vice versa. At the very least I'll do what Licona and GDon did and provide a guide on Tekton main (which would be expected of me anyway); the toons are an extra I can add to or stop adding to as needed. (Besides, it's always fun to draw Sheila. :teeth:) There'll be one more today...then I'll look over the DVD next week and plot what others I can do, while keeping an eye on the publicity.


I agree. That would be interesting if he answered critics in a new version. But I see him as someone who ignores or runs away from problems and expect he won't change a thing, just produce more rotgut like this Beast movie (which will of course itself bring more attention back to the first film).

Can you tell me where on IIDB to find that thread?

[lao tzu]

Thanks for your reply, JP,

I did a search using "waroneaster" there and just the one thread popped up. I'm not sure if IIDB links are verbotin here. Let's find out:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=161439&highlight=waroneaster

The best post, from my point of view, was one where it was suggested that letters be sent out to pastors asking for public screenings in the churches with some kind of discussion following.

As a former television research director, publicity value gets measured in GRPs, reach and frequency (http://www.srds.com/frontMatter/sup_serv/calculator/grp_trp/grps_trps.html) for me. Reach is the determining factor in this instance, I think. Ironically, the best promotion for his video is likely to come from major media outlets such as FOX who are most likely to be opposed.

I saw your link to GDon, but I haven't seen one to Licona. Care to share? I'm still agnostic on the existence of a historical (as in extra-biblical) Jesus, though I wouldn't mind reading more about the debate. My usual take on anything that's not peer reviewed is that it's probably not worthy of my own review either (unless it impacts directly on abstract mathematics).

To each their own, but proselytizing always strikes me as kinda ... I don't know, dirty.

As ever, Jesse

[jpholding]

Thanks for your reply, JP,

I did a search using "waroneaster" there and just the one thread popped up. I'm not sure if IIDB links are verbotin here.

Just if that's ALL you post as an argument. :smile: And since I asked for it from you, no problem anyway.

Thank you very much.

The best post, from my point of view, was one where it was suggested that letters be sent out to pastors asking for public screenings in the churches with some kind of discussion following.

I'd like that myself, but I can tell you from experience that that would hit a brick wall in most cases because most churches are too busy with aerobics classes and Rick Warren seminars. :thumbd:


I saw your link to GDon, but I haven't seen one to Licona. Care to share?

Sure: http://www.answeringinfidels.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=87

Doherty issued a reply (which Mike issued his own brief reply to, and which I think I'll go ahead and reply to in detail next week, re the parts I know enough about).


Meanwhile, the new toon is up:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere2.html

[GakuseiDon]

You know, this may be a good opportunity to bring sanity to the Jesus Myth once and for all. If we could somehow distribute the "God Who Wasn't There" DVD and point out all the misinformation in it, it would make the Jesus Myth devotees actually start checking their facts before posting. At the least, it might finally kill off Kersey Graves as a trusted source.

So, perhaps we should be pushing those DVDs ourselves? Once people start to question the misinformation it contains, they would make the best weapon against the Jesus Myth.

[GakuseiDon]

Meanwhile, the new toon is up:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere2.html
Heheh. Good ol' Beddru.

But the thing that gets me is, even if there were a "Beddru of Japan", does Flemming HONESTLY think that a myth originating in Japan more than 2000 years ago somehow influenced people in the Middle East? I suppose it's vaguely possible, but it sounds extremely unlikely. What on earth was he thinking?

[jpholding]

I suppose it's vaguely possible, but it sounds extremely unlikely. What on earth was he thinking?

He wasn't...most likely. As I say, the transition he made was from a Christian who didn't think to an atheist who didn't think.

I'd be all for using the DVD as an object lesson in churches; certainly it would be excellent for raising doubts in the minds of Christians about the credibility of Christ mythers (and other critics, perhaps). Unfortunately they're mostly too busy with Rick Warren seminars.

I hope to work up an intro page for the project, by tomorrow, and send the link to Flemming from Sheila's address with the subject title, "War on Easter 2: The Bunny Bites Back".

[jpholding]

Got that intro page up

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere1.html

and sent Flemming an email with the URL to the first page. :hehe:

[Darth Executor]

Got that intro page up

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere1.html

and sent Flemming an email with the URL to the first page. :hehe:

You know, it's mean to update your site and say you were hacked when I check the updates at 2-3 in the middle of the night. I actually believed it for a second. :glare:

Then I decided it's time to go to sleep. :tongue:

[jpholding]

You know, it's mean to update your site and say you were hacked when I check the updates at 2-3 in the middle of the night. I actually believed it for a second. :glare:

That's the idea. :tongue: It fooled a lot of people the last two times we did it too.

[jpholding]

Waroneaster.org has posted a "reply" to Sheila. Check this, Brian's backside is on fire:
********
from the WaronEaster.org blog:
title: Threatened much?

Check out this cartoon criticism of the War on Easter
over at a Christian site called Tektoonics. I guess
we're getting to them.

The lessons Christ's followers taught us today:

1) Mislead your readers.

2) If your case is weak, back it up with violence.

(:rofl: "Violence"!)

If you've seen The God Who Wasn't There and you wonder
what the heck the cartoon is talking about, don't
worry, you haven't lost your memory. The author of the
cartoon, Sheila Rangslinger, is dishonest in her
representation of the film.

(*Sheila is the author of the piece! Nyuk nyuk)

The Orpheus icon that the
cartoon focuses on is never actually discussed in The
God Who Wasn't There. The icon appears for about five
seconds as an illustration (along with representations
of other ancient gods). No claims are made about the
illustration in the movie, with regard to its date or
anything else (by "forgery," apologetics mean the icon
was created after Christianity began and not before).
The Orpheus icon is not anything close to a building
block of the argument made in The God Who Wasn't
There.

(*But he fails to answer the question: Why did he use it? And he ignores that the judgment of forgery came from non-apologists.)

You wouldn't know that from reading the cartoon, would
you? And, of course, the Tektoonics readers who
haven't seen the movie (i.e., most Tektoonics readers)
will be misled about the movie's contents. Which is
the point.

(*And you wouldn't know from the movie that the icon is forged, that it is worthless as evidence. What a maroon! :lmbo:)

The overall strategy of Christian apologists with
regard The God Who Wasn't There is to discourage
Christians from watching it at all. Just trust us, the
apologists say-we've watched it, and it's a horribly
made movie filled with lies. Nothing to see here.

(*Oh, don't worry. It'll get a piece by piece review.)

The bright side for us to this strategy: When
Christians actually do see the movie, they will
quickly realize they've been lied to by its critics.

So let's get these Christians some free DVDs! Crank up
those DVD-Rs and start spreading the news.





I smell burning phlegm. :hehe:

[Spheniscine]

Violence?!

Stop your 'war on easter', or my henchman here, Bimf, will make you wish you were never born. Kapeesh?
:lmbo:

He must have taken your introduction page a little too literally.

[Darth Executor]

Waroneaster.org has posted a "reply" to Sheila. Check this, Brian's backside is on fire:
********
from the WaronEaster.org blog:
title: Threatened much?

Check out this cartoon criticism of the War on Easter
over at a Christian site called Tektoonics. I guess
we're getting to them.

The lessons Christ's followers taught us today:

1) Mislead your readers.

2) If your case is weak, back it up with violence.

(:rofl: "Violence"!)

If you've seen The God Who Wasn't There and you wonder
what the heck the cartoon is talking about, don't
worry, you haven't lost your memory. The author of the
cartoon, Sheila Rangslinger, is dishonest in her
representation of the film.

(*Sheila is the author of the piece! Nyuk nyuk)

The Orpheus icon that the
cartoon focuses on is never actually discussed in The
God Who Wasn't There. The icon appears for about five
seconds as an illustration (along with representations
of other ancient gods). No claims are made about the
illustration in the movie, with regard to its date or
anything else (by "forgery," apologetics mean the icon
was created after Christianity began and not before).
The Orpheus icon is not anything close to a building
block of the argument made in The God Who Wasn't
There.

(*But he fails to answer the question: Why did he use it? And he ignores that the judgment of forgery came from non-apologists.)

You wouldn't know that from reading the cartoon, would
you? And, of course, the Tektoonics readers who
haven't seen the movie (i.e., most Tektoonics readers)
will be misled about the movie's contents. Which is
the point.

(*And you wouldn't know from the movie that the icon is forged, that it is worthless as evidence. What a maroon! :lmbo:)

The overall strategy of Christian apologists with
regard The God Who Wasn't There is to discourage
Christians from watching it at all. Just trust us, the
apologists say-we've watched it, and it's a horribly
made movie filled with lies. Nothing to see here.

(*Oh, don't worry. It'll get a piece by piece review.)

The bright side for us to this strategy: When
Christians actually do see the movie, they will
quickly realize they've been lied to by its critics.

So let's get these Christians some free DVDs! Crank up
those DVD-Rs and start spreading the news.





I smell burning phlegm. :hehe:

Nothing about Beddru?

[Anthem]

Waroneaster.org has posted a "reply" to Sheila. Check this, Brian's backside is on fire:
********
from the WaronEaster.org blog:
title: Threatened much?

Check out this cartoon criticism of the War on Easter
over at a Christian site called Tektoonics. I guess
we're getting to them.

The lessons Christ's followers taught us today:

1) Mislead your readers.

2) If your case is weak, back it up with violence.

(:rofl: "Violence"!)

If you've seen The God Who Wasn't There and you wonder
what the heck the cartoon is talking about, don't
worry, you haven't lost your memory. The author of the
cartoon, Sheila Rangslinger, is dishonest in her
representation of the film.

(*Sheila is the author of the piece! Nyuk nyuk)

The Orpheus icon that the
cartoon focuses on is never actually discussed in The
God Who Wasn't There. The icon appears for about five
seconds as an illustration (along with representations
of other ancient gods). No claims are made about the
illustration in the movie, with regard to its date or
anything else (by "forgery," apologetics mean the icon
was created after Christianity began and not before).
The Orpheus icon is not anything close to a building
block of the argument made in The God Who Wasn't
There.

(*But he fails to answer the question: Why did he use it? And he ignores that the judgment of forgery came from non-apologists.)

You wouldn't know that from reading the cartoon, would
you? And, of course, the Tektoonics readers who
haven't seen the movie (i.e., most Tektoonics readers)
will be misled about the movie's contents. Which is
the point.

(*And you wouldn't know from the movie that the icon is forged, that it is worthless as evidence. What a maroon! :lmbo:)

The overall strategy of Christian apologists with
regard The God Who Wasn't There is to discourage
Christians from watching it at all. Just trust us, the
apologists say-we've watched it, and it's a horribly
made movie filled with lies. Nothing to see here.

(*Oh, don't worry. It'll get a piece by piece review.)

The bright side for us to this strategy: When
Christians actually do see the movie, they will
quickly realize they've been lied to by its critics.

So let's get these Christians some free DVDs! Crank up
those DVD-Rs and start spreading the news.





I smell burning phlegm. :hehe:so he his promoting illegal (maybe) copying of his own work? :huh:
flemming must not like money.

[Darth Executor]

Hey JP, when I reinstalled XP all my graphics programs went down the toilet along with my DVD burner, so I have to give up on the testimony since I can't doctor the pics well enough. Instead, I wrote up another retarded Jesus was *insert idiocy here* parody. If you haven't played Oblivion you probably won't get a few of them.

Is Jesus Mehrunes Dagon?

Imus Keptic, PhD.

I was playing a new game, "The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion" when I realised that I had

stumbled upon another mythical figure Jesus was ripped off! How anyone else managed to miss

it is beyond my comprehension. The following may contain information from the game that you

might want to find out on your own, so if you plan on playing it, don't read this.


Jesus claims the world is his and plans on ruling it
Mehrunes Dagon claims the world is his and plans on ruling it

Jesus fights a dragon at the end of the Bible
Mehrunes Dagon fights a dragon at the end of Oblivion

Jesus's followers wore robes
Mehrunes Dagon's followers wear robes

Mehrunes Dagon has four arms
Jesus and the Father have four arms in total

Mehrunes Dagon's cult is called the Mythic Dawn
Jesus's tomb was found empty at dawn

Paul promises Jesus's followers eternal life in paradise
Mankar Camoran promises Mehrunes Dagon's followers eternal life in paradise

Mehrunes Dagon wants to destroy the world and rebuild it.
Jesus wants to destroy the world and rebuild it.

Jesus was dead for three days.
I finished Oblivion in thee days.

There you have it ladies and gentlemen, "Jesus" is actually a carbon copy of Mehrunes Dagon.
Even the physical similarities are striking. Can you tell which one of these is Jesus?

[attachment=1][attachment=2]

There you have it ladies and gentlemen!

[dizzle]

Violence?!

Stop your 'war on easter', or my henchman here, Bimf, will make you wish you were never born. Kapeesh?
:lmbo:

He must have taken your introduction page a little too literally.

It would have been even more amusing if he had fired up the colourful language I have seen on some of those pages and hurled the misogyny at Sheila.

[flipper]

Bleagh. This appears to be a sophomoric, thoughtless and misguided campaign. Silly boys.

I am amused that they can apparently be induced to argue with a cartoon character though. Flipper's First Law of Argumentation reads "never argue with a cartoon character. You will always, always lose. The more you think you're winning, the more pathetic you appear. A good example of this is George Bush Senior VS Homer Simpson."

[jpholding]

Violence?!


Yeah, and this from a guy who has a (cough) WAR on Easter going and uses ads for it that show a bunny in rifle crosshairs. Hey, maybe he thinks Wile E. Coyote did instructional videos on roadrunner hunting! :lol:



Nothing about Beddru?

Not as far as I can find. They seem not to be able to see links to more pages.

I'll go ahead and use that Oblivion thing on Tekton, then?



I'm prepping a reply to the Orpheus thing now. Will be up at http://www.tektonics.org/notthere/nottherea.html within an hour, I think.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

ahem, JP you mean tektoonics.com, I think :smile:

[jpholding]

ahem, JP you mean tektoonics.com, I think :smile:

:blush: Yeah.

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/nottherea.html and it is up now.

[Darth Executor]

I'll go ahead and use that Oblivion thing on Tekton, then?

Yup.

I'm prepping a reply to the Orpheus thing now. Will be up at http://www.tektonics.org/notthere/nottherea.html within an hour, I think.

:lol:

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

:blush: Yeah.

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/nottherea.html and it is up now.
JP,

It's good. Having seen a couple of clips on the 'Net I see some of the 'message' is unsaid or involves viewer conclusions who would be unaware of contrary scholarship (examples: whether Mark is the first gospel, oral tradition means a 40 year gap from event to writing is/is not a problem) - these things are just left dangling in front of the viewer.

What this creates is wider ignorance under the guise of being informed. Actually I think Flemming misuses the term "information" in this way.

[Mark_S]

I'm disappointed. I checked our church from top to bottom today..... Nothing.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Mark, it is a minor skirmish really. They really think this will have a major impact? It's also clear only a few things are posted at each location, so you might have been pipped - or maybe they don't know about your church?

[DesertBerean]

Mark, it is a minor skirmish really. They really think this will have a major impact? It's also clear only a few things are posted at each location, so you might have been pipped - or maybe they don't know about your church?
Well, I'm disappointed too. But since we had to be in two locations today, maybe they got lost. :teeth:

[Mark_S]

Mark, it is a minor skirmish really. They really think this will have a major impact? It's also clear only a few things are posted at each location, so you might have been pipped - or maybe they don't know about your church?

Don't worry. I'm a very sarcastic individual. Sometimes I forget that this doesn't come across clearly on the web.

[Cynic Sage]

Waroneaster.org has posted a "reply" to Sheila. Check this, Brian's backside is on fire:
********
from the WaronEaster.org blog:
title: Threatened much?

Check out this cartoon criticism of the War on Easter
over at a Christian site called Tektoonics. I guess
we're getting to them.

The lessons Christ's followers taught us today:

1) Mislead your readers.

2) If your case is weak, back it up with violence.

(:rofl: "Violence"!)

Dude, He thinks it's an actual threat of violence. Does he actually expect "elmo-on-steriods" to show up on his doorstep? :lmbo:

What's next? Donald Duck slashing his tires. :lol:

[Cynic Sage]

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere2.html

Hey JP, that page is missing a "next page" link.

[Cynic Sage]

Mua haaa haaa...

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere.html

Feel free to spread this around. I have some more ideas to pursue before the day is up. If you'd like to also have some fun, drop me a PM and I'll let you know what I have in mind.
I just noticed something.

You make weird choices when it comes to onomonopeia, JP. :hrm:

[sc_q_jayce]

As I recall Dundes wasn't all that bad. I doubt if he realized what he was being (ab)used for. He just gave the old Raglan reduction.

I loaned the DVD to someone and I hope to get it back within the week. A toon reply may be the way to go.

One of the reasons why I felt he went overboard over several sections in class was his insistence of applying folkloristic principles to the interpretation of the Bible as male-dominated, paralleled-with-all-sorts-of-other-things-that-makes-the-Bible-just-folklore-without-truth folklore. I wish I took notes when he went over it. Heh. Now it's too late to ask him about it again.

[jpholding]

It's good. Having seen a couple of clips on the 'Net I see some of the 'message' is unsaid or involves viewer conclusions who would be unaware of contrary scholarship (examples: whether Mark is the first gospel, oral tradition means a 40 year gap from event to writing is/is not a problem) - these things are just left dangling in front of the viewer.

Supposedly the depth interviews with Doherty, et al, have more. We shall see; I now have the DVD back and I hope to deal in 1-2 parts today. First I need to tackle Doherty's response to Licona (I'm almost through with it now). No surprise, Earl just hauls up all his canards he knows darned well I have answered. I reviewed my old material against him and was amazed by just how little he actually replied to. He completely ignored the detailed arguments about such things as the authenticity of 1 Thess. 2:14-16 and just made some snide comment about how there were scholars who still thought it was an interpolation. Years of experience past, I can see now that Doherty is nothing but a hack who knows how to write doggerel.

Darth, I will be using your Oblivion comparison in my reply to Doherty. It's a good opportunity to use it.


I'm disappointed. I checked our church from top to bottom today..... Nothing.

Nothing at my place either. But after all, with so many churches and so few fundy atheists (and what about all the stakes and Kingdom Halls, too?) the odds of being visited were already vanishingly small). I suspect the flyers will simply get thrown away. The DVDs might get watched but I expect will be turned off by 99% of those who see it once it gets to the "Koresh was a Christian" part (which is very early in the film -- bad move by Flemming).



Hey JP, that page is missing a "next page" link.


Don't have a next page there yet. :smile: As for the sound effect, if you mean what I think, the idea is that you complete Flemming's sentence with the sound effect made by the rang hitting him. :wink:

So, today, want to ream Doherty, plus at least 1 part of the film; may or may not be anything toonworthy, we shall see. All this and Range Patrol #3 sometime this week!

[papabryant]

For those interested:

http://www.jacksonville.com/community/cc/bryant/stories/041706/041706082659.shtml

I wonder if Flemming will claim success with his little project? Has anyone seen anything about the actual number of videos hidden? Or if he put money in one of them, like a prize egg?

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

I have a question about the War on Easter:

I notice that the rationalresponders site is publishing pictures of the planted DVDs. Not so covert now, is it?

[jpholding]

I wonder if Flemming will claim success with his little project?

Ya mean the same guy who says that no one has ever rebutted Earl Doherty? :lol:


I notice that the rationalresponders site is publishing pictures of the planted DVDs. Not so covert now, is it?

They'd say the planting of them is. I'd like to thrash that Sapient guy from RR pretty soon too.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Ya mean the same guy who says that no one has ever rebutted Earl Doherty? :lol:




They'd say the planting of them is. I'd like to thrash that Sapient guy from RR pretty soon too.
Sure the planting the DVDs is covert. But the CIA don't publish their covert operations, do they?

[Cynic Sage]

I have a question about the War on Easter:

I notice that the rationalresponders site is publishing pictures of the planted DVDs. Not so covert now, is it?

Well, the thing you have to realize with Athiests on the internet is that when it comes to stealth and secrecy, they really, really suck.

[jpholding]

New toon:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere3.html

Also did comments on the first 3 of 22 parts of the DVD at http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godthere.html -- not a whole lot needed.

[jpholding]

One of the reasons why I felt he went overboard over several sections in class was his insistence of applying folkloristic principles to the interpretation of the Bible as male-dominated, paralleled-with-all-sorts-of-other-things-that-makes-the-Bible-just-folklore-without-truth folklore. I wish I took notes when he went over it. Heh. Now it's too late to ask him about it again.

Jayce, did Dundes believe or did he ever argue that Jesus did not exist as a person?

[jpholding]

New toon up:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere4.html

and up to part 6 looked at over on http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godthere.html

Looks like I have time to watch at least 3 more segments today.

[sc_q_jayce]

New toon up:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere4.html

and up to part 6 looked at over on http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godthere.html

Looks like I have time to watch at least 3 more segments today.

Do you have any quotes on how Dundes uses the words "folklore?" Does he define it? And is his way of using "folklore" with the Bible just a broadbrush "The Bible is filled with folklore!" exclamation?

Just looking through your post. I figure since I've read at least five academic books on folklore, and passing his class with flying colors, I should try my hand at assisting with what little information I know. Dundes, as far as I know, did not deviate too much from academic scholarship's consensus of folklore, and advocated many books in the field. I will use what books I have to try to shed some light.

Perhaps the reason why Flemming interviewed him is because people have no understanding of the term "folklore" and will misunderstand what Dundes is talking about unless they have actually done the research.

This is a problem and highly misrepresentative Dundes' words UNLESS folklore is approached academically.

Some definitions of Folklore:

Folklorists generally associate five qualities with true folklore: (1) its content is oral (usually verbal), or custom-related, or material; (2) it is traditional in form and transmission; (3) it exists in different versions; (4) it is usually anonymous; and (5) it tends to become formularized. Each of these terms is used in a broad sense, and the first three qualities are the primary ones to be considered in arriving at a clear definition of folklore.

Does Jesus fit into folklore? You have better sources than me about how things worked in their day, you can answer that. What's clear is that when Dundes uses the word "folklore," it does not mean "myth," and it does not mean that there is no bearing on truth. (AND myth is a very special term in folklore academics, I'll PM/e-mail you a more thorough description of folklore since I might get modded if I say more on this book).

I'll keep looking into Dundes' view on Jesus. I'll try to get a hold of one of his former graduate students... but I can't remember her name!

Full Citation:

Brunvand, Jan Harold, The Study of American Folklore: An Introduction, 4ed, 1998, W.W. Norton & Company, Inc., New York.

---

P.S. I'll have to send you the references a little later as I need to go run some errands now. Hope you can wait. :)

[jpholding]

Do you have any quotes on how Dundes uses the words "folklore?" Does he define it? And is his way of using "folklore" with the Bible just a broadbrush "The Bible is filled with folklore!" exclamation?

Basically, yes. Though I'm more than ready to assume that he said more that Flemming clipped, or that Flemming only let him say as much as Flemming wanted to hear. There is no definition in the film given for "folklore".

Perhaps the reason why Flemming interviewed him is because people have no understanding of the term "folklore" and will misunderstand what Dundes is talking about unless they have actually done the research.

Since Flemming plays the dishonest game of interviewing on the street Christians and asking them eg if they've heard of Mithra, counterpointed by interviews with academics like Dundes and Price, I wouldn't be surprised.

Does Jesus fit into folklore?

Of the 5 criteria given I would dispute only 4 as applicable to any extent. I notice that there is nothing that says that it is associated with that which is epistemically true or false, as you say.

truth. (AND myth is a very special term in folklore academics, I'll PM/e-mail you a more thorough description of folklore since I might get modded if I say more on this book).

Please do. I would appreciate something I could use as an appendix, authored by a former student of Dundes.


P.S. I'll have to send you the references a little later as I need to go run some errands now. Hope you can wait. :)

Sure can. I need to finish the film and the accessory portions and that will take at least 2 weeks. I just finished up to part 10 of 22 (and many of the next few address the "left behind" thesis, which I don't adhere to anyway).

Thank you.

[sc_q_jayce]

Okay, I've sent an E-Mail to a graduate student who I've become friends with who's worked much closer with Dundes than I have, her being a PhD student in folklore studies.

I'm working on some definitions for you now. I'm also close to the University of California, Riverside (It's too bad I graduated from Berkeley already, because now I don't have access to their direct folklore archives :bawl:), which has some copies of Dundes books:

"Holy Writ as Oral Lit: The Bible as Folklore" (1999)
and
"The Hero Pattern and the Life of Jesus: Protocol of the Twentyfifth Colloquy, 12 December 1976"

My friend (who is a UCR student) is currently checking them out for me, bless his soul :wink:!

I'll peruse through the books and see what I can gather about Dundes' position about Jesus.

I would look at this link, though, as to how his folkloristic views color his Bible eyes.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/3-9-1999.html

That's all for now! Hopefully I'll get some cool books tonight.

[sc_q_jayce]

Some preliminary findings from my readings.

1. Alan Dundes was heavily misrepresented. There is no way that Dundes would try to show that Jesus was purely fabricated (I am intentionally avoiding the term "myth"). As a folklorist, his philosophy goes completely against the idea that folklore can be separated from history and thus he does not aim nor care whether Jesus was real or not. For Flemming to place Dundes in this position in the DVD to try to credit Jesus as a fabrication is outright scandalous and he should apologize to Dundes immediately... er... his family immedieately.

2. Dundes should not have tried to apply the Bible in a folklore motif because of his lack of scholarship in the Biblical records and Biblical studies. Reading over some of his comments showed large bits of ignorance of scripture. For the record, Dundes was a Secular Jew, and in one of his other papers, he believes that the Jewish people were completely obsessed with feces and that anal-feces-fetish was a sign of their legalism. David Biale of UC Davis, in the journal American Jewish History, completely blasts him:

...After some hesitations about whether one can speak of a "Jewish national character," Dundes - following Freud and Ferenczi - ventures the following: ". . . can a case be made . . . that the Jews do exhibit the personality characteristics that . . . could conceivably be called anal erotic in nature?" (100). The answer, of course, is yes, and Dundes proceeds to assemble every example of excrement in the Bible and Talmud. Feces is his thesis. The alleged Jewish preoccupation with cleanliness and purity "which borders on obsession, would seem to suggest an anal erotic origin. . ." (115). The strange passage in Exodus 33:22-23, where God shows Moses his backside, "is not merely an example of divine 'mooning,' but it is rather an image totally consonant with an anal erotic pattern of behavior and thought" (125)

Needless to say, sometimes Dundes is a hoot and sometimes is hard to take seriously. If you want the whole paper, let me know. I think you'll enjoy this review of his paper as much as I did. Now I really want to find the actual paper itself! :lol:

3. His choice of using the 22 traits to describe a hero is laughable on first sight and I will write you a detailed account of why this is so incredulous to me that it should be reasonably disregarded as anything worthwhile. This is my first impression, at least, and I will definitely take some careful notes for you.

4. From Miss Graduate Student: "I can tell you that AD was not concerned with whether Jesus was a real person or not -- I think we can safely say that we all agree he was an historical figure. As folklorists we are concerned with narrative development (among other things). Dundes was drawing on "hero of tradition" scholarship and applying it to Jesus as it had been applied to Oedipus, Jason, Moses, Apollo, King Arthur etc. The hypothesis is that there are structural formulations that underlie heroic makeovers." She said she would write more on Sunday, so I'll wait until then for more information from her. She'd also snail mail a copy of his paper! How exciting. :)

I am currently reading "The Hero Pattern and the Life of Jesus" and it is fascinating; there are a bunch of reviews by New Testament Scholars in the end of the article, so I'm looking forward to reading the full treatment.

I'll hopefully compose a short paper on it for you if I'm not too lazy.

Edit: Ugh. I am sooo tired. I'll have to do this tomorrow instead of today. I hope you don't mind. Am I giving myself too much pressure? :P

[jpholding]

If you don't mind, I'll use some of this in an appendix and mark it as investigation in process.

[jpholding]

New toon:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere5.html

Can't have Flemming having all the abuse. :hehe:

Notes on the film up to part 18 will go up today plus one more toon.

[Darth Executor]

New toon:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere5.html

Can't have Flemming having all the abuse. :hehe:


That Santa Claus bit was a nice touch. :lol:

[jpholding]

That Santa Claus bit was a nice touch. :lol:

I've always thought of Price as a demented Santa Claus. :hehe:



Now here's some interesting news. I chatted with a radio talk show host out in LA yesterday about doing something on The Da Vinci Code. While I had them on the line I asked if they had heard about this War on Easter. They had not. And this is in Flemming's own back yard (Hollywood)!

Between this and the fact that the waroneaster blog is slower than a turtle race, it looks for now like their campaign is dying a rapid death.

Any thoughts one way or the other? Has anyone out there found anything in their churches, or know of someone who has?

[Darth Executor]

I've always thought of Price as a demented Santa Claus. :hehe:



Now here's some interesting news. I chatted with a radio talk show host out in LA yesterday about doing something on The Da Vinci Code. While I had them on the line I asked if they had heard about this War on Easter. They had not. And this is in Flemming's own back yard (Hollywood)!

Between this and the fact that the waroneaster blog is slower than a turtle race, it looks for now like their campaign is dying a rapid death.

Any thoughts one way or the other? Has anyone out there found anything in their churches, or know of someone who has?

My church is full of irritated construction workers wielding dangerous machines during the week. If his campaign gets up here I have a feeling that the poor sucker who sticks his hand in holding a copy of "the god who wasn't there" will pull out a stump. :teeth:

[sc_q_jayce]

If you don't mind, I'll use some of this in an appendix and mark it as investigation in process.
Sure. Do whatever you wish.

[jpholding]

Thanks! This now up:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere6.html

I'll post the updated serious stuff later this afternoon.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Thanks! This now up:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere6.html

I'll post the updated serious stuff later this afternoon.
:lmbo: Go, Sheila!

[jpholding]

Oh my goodness,

I watched the "Power Point" feature on the DVD and this is going to be a real hoot. I'll finish the update and then get back with some of these screamers.

[Darth Executor]

Ha ha, I went online to see if I can download it and it's the first torrent I've seen in a while that has more seeds than leeches (for those who have no idea what the heck that means, it means nobody wants it).

[jpholding]

OK, here we go, now that I have it up:

# One slide says of arguments for the resurrection: "Bizarre reasoning, low standards, and outright lying" are often needed to do them. Unfortunately no examples are given, much less refutatations. And, the "same flaws are present in arguments for the historical view of Jesus."
# The Christians on the street all came from attendees of a Billy Graham crusade. It is claimed that they were not cherry-picked (ha!) and that they "found none who had any better handle on the subject then those presented" in the film. Maybe Flemming should try here and not be such a roaring hypocrite.
# A tip of the hat to Maccoby and Crossan, for the point that the name "Judas" means "Jew". Surely that implies anti-Semitism, huh? Sure must have been a load of anti-Semites back then, since "Judas" (a variant of "Judah", one of the original 12 sons of Jacob) was one of the five top names given to Jewish boys of that day. It was also the same of one of Jesus' other 12 Apostles who didn't betray him. Next thing you know, Flemming will uncover a conspiracy to name boys "Bob" and discover that Robert Price has a vendetta against him.
# The canard appears, "There are no Roman records of Pontius Pilate ordering the execution of Jesus." Um hm. There are no Roman records of Pontius Pilate or ANY Roman provincial governor ordering ANYTHING, not even lunch, thank you very much. All such records have completely disappeared. It is therefore dishonest to use this point.
# Vague complaint about differences in the Gospels; see the series here.
# Butt coverage central here, as a disclaimer is issued that the use of the list from Graves "should not be considered an endorsement of some of the wilder claims about previous savior figures." Uh, well, which "wilder claims"? And then why is the list even used? So media presentation is again what it is all about; deceiving by appearance.
# The closing pics counterposing NAE's logo with the WTC burning is a cute touch. Let's see -- I'll try this:
Some people argue against Christianity.
[attachment=1][attachment=2]
Yeah, that's the ticket.....
# Finally, the list of atheist groups at the end is kind of funny, given that the first (American Atheists) wants to take tax exemption from churches, while the last (Secular Web) is a 501(c)(3) with tax-exempt status, as is FFRF. We can have it, but you can't?

[Darth Executor]

And no, contrary to Flemming, "Satan did it" is not "the explanation to this day". See our series on each "pagan savior" here (http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycat.html). Flemming also plays his dishonest game of interviewing everyday Christians again -- why not scholars instead? Why not indeed, we at this site? Flemming lists characteristics of "savior gods" in the foreground and shows Graves' list in the background, but does not connect any names and deeds together. We'd like to see him try. Toon version. (http://www.tektoonics.com/nottthere/notthere6.html)

The Toon Version link is wrong, you added an extra t at "nottthere".

http://www.tektoonics.com/nottthere/notthere6.html

Should be this:

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere6.html

[jpholding]

Yak spit! :rant:

I'll fix it tomorrow. Gotta leave for the day now.

[sc_q_jayce]

I finished reading the discourse of "The Hero pattern and the Life of Jesus" and want to give you this gem:

At the end of the booklet is the minutes of the colloquy, and Dundes states the following:

Some things in the responses I did not take account of, and I did not want to. One is the question of historicity, raised by Smith and Talbert. I have no position on historicity; structural analysis is irrelevent to history. Raglan had a different bias; he was interested in disproving the historicity of the lives of the heroes. The truth/falsehood issue concerned Murgia, among others. But to distinguish "true" heroes from "folk" heroes confirms my original point, that "folk" is always throught to be error. There is no way of knowing a priori whether a given individual is historical; that is a separate issue. Some people were concerned that I did not discuss the religiosity of the life of Jesus. Obviously, that is a very important issue, but again, here I take no position. Structural analysis per se says nothing about it, nor does psychoanalytic criticism.

Edit: Oh man. Reading the minutes is horrifying. Dundes is getting blasted back and forth by theologians, classicists, historians, etc. One person even remarks, "Despite the literary, factual, historical oppositions presented, Professor Dundes still finds the Freudian model for interpretation convincing... Yet I find no impelling rationale moving me to accept his interpretation. Many of your comments seem like flotsam and jetsam, as if you were amok in a china shop!" :rofl:

[jpholding]

I finished reading the discourse of "The Hero pattern and the Life of Jesus" and want to give you this gem:

Good, I'll use that too.


Edit: Oh man. Reading the minutes is horrifying. Dundes is getting blasted back and forth by theologians, classicists, historians, etc.

I get the idea that the man was not exactly considered stable by his peers. In the GWWT extra interview he said he got death threats for some idea that football was a homosexual ritual. Huh? Can you tell us any more on that? It might be a nice juicy add-on for the sort of people Flemming finds credible as interview subjects.

I'll have an update done within an hour or so. No new toons but I did finish the main film again and watch the Dundes and Harris interviews (not much in the latter).


Added: Didn't take that long. Update done.

[sc_q_jayce]

Good, I'll use that too.



I get the idea that the man was not exactly considered stable by his peers. In the GWWT extra interview he said he got death threats for some idea that football was a homosexual ritual. Huh? Can you tell us any more on that? It might be a nice juicy add-on for the sort of people Flemming finds credible as interview subjects.

I'll have an update done within an hour or so. No new toons but I did finish the main film again and watch the Dundes and Harris interviews (not much in the latter).


Added: Didn't take that long. Update done.
I don't have an answer off the top of my head, but it makes sense he would say that, being a scholar who was more Freudian than Freud himself. :lol:

I think this was his major weakness in his scholarship; when he avoided Freudian psychoanalysis, he does a great job in his work. His detailing of other lore is fascinating and interesting, even! However, his insistence on Freud, sex, phallic imagery, Electra and Oedipal complexes and such makes a lot of his arguments a very LOOOOOONG stretch that many people have difficulty buying into.

I'll see if I can find something that could resemble that. No guarantees, though!

[dizzle]

I invited Brian to the site for a one on one debate with JP

[Cynic Sage]

I invited Brian to the site for a one on one debate with JP
Sounds interesting. :popcorn:

[sc_q_jayce]

Hi JP,

I just did a quick search, and I think I found what you were looking for.

http://www.afsnet.org/aboutfolklore/DundesObituaries.cfm

Read the LA Times Obituary "Alan Dundes, 70; Folklorist Drew Laughs and Hostility." Towards the end of all his works the football thing is mentioned.

"Into the Endzone for a Touchdown: A Psychoanalytic Consideration of American Football."

Hope that gives you a place to start. :)

If I have time and friends, then I'll try to get a copy of it.

[jpholding]

Just finished watching the last of the DVD. A lot of the extra stuff is political (you'd think Bush was eating babies raw or something) and of no interest to me so there won't be much more added.

No response from Flemming on a debate. He's right now "debating" some guy called The Calvinist:

http://q-and-a-blog.blogspot.com/

I put "debating" in quotes because I frankly find the format too stultifying to what I'd call debate. I'm not so sure I think much of the questions and answers being given by "The Calvinst" either, but...

[jpholding]

First of all, is anyone having problems getting on Tekton right now?


Once I'm sure there aren't any problems, I'll load up the last update (for now) on the DVD. Wanted to note a few points here meanwhile:

On the Earl Doherty commentary track -- There was nothing here not addressed in my Tekton series on Doherty, and what was offered was usually highly summarized (eg, the "brother of Jesus" reference to James in Josephus is merely waved off as having unspecific "problems"). I do find it rather hypocritical and curious that when Doherty fumbles about trying to remember what the Council of Nicea was about (he gets it wrong, mixing its purpose with that of canonical councils and the later Council of Chalcedon!), Flemming rushes for a save by pointing out that the matter of church councils is outside Doherty's expertise. This is the same Flemming that made an issue of the ignorance of Christians he picked off the street, but apparently on-the-street Christians are supposed to be well informed about things like Mithra. while it is perfectly fine for Doherty to not know diddly-squat about what happened at church councils. It is also interesting that when Flemming says there have been NO rebuttals to Doherty, Doherty slyly modifies the question and replies that there have been none by scholars. Are these guys afraid of something?

On the second commentary track, this was a real howler: Carrier offered a series of paranoid ravings to the effect that atheists would become the next "Jews" to be treated to a Holocaust, while Sam Harris indicated that people who held what he called "irrational" beliefs should be shut out of public discourse.

Last, checking waroneaster.org, the number of stories seems to be pretty darned low. And this is the kind of person Flemming has doing his dirty work:


We got an odd look from a police officer when we were sitting across the street from a playground in an old brown Chevy Celebrity with a bunch of easter eggs, flyers, and a lot of liquor in the back seat.

:hehe: It's a good sign when you can get the drunk and rowdy crowd behind you.

[Darth Executor]

I can get on just fine.

[Darth Executor]

Carrier offered a series of paranoid ravings to the effect that atheists would become the next "Jews" to be treated to a Holocaust

:lmbo:

I gotta get my hands on one of these.

[jpholding]

I can get on just fine.

I did too 10 minutes later. :glare:

When all this is over you can borrow my copy by mail if you want to.

[Darth Executor]

I did too 10 minutes later. :glare:

When all this is over you can borrow my copy by mail if you want to.

What's the shipping cost? And I'm not sure I can for now, I'm moving this summer. The odds of our postal service getting it right are 0.

[jpholding]

What's the shipping cost? And I'm not sure I can for now, I'm moving this summer. The odds of our postal service getting it right are 0.

After summer would be fine then. I don't imagine it'll be more than 3-4 dollars for just a DVD by parcel post.

[Cynic Sage]

What's the shipping cost? And I'm not sure I can for now, I'm moving this summer. The odds of our postal service getting it right are 0.

Why don't you just ask fleming for some free ones, keep one and use the others for either skete-shooting or making those clocks that people make out of CDs and DVDs?

[jpholding]

Why don't you just ask fleming for some free ones, keep one and use the others for either skete-shooting or making those clocks that people make out of CDs and DVDs?

Or make ninja stars out of 'em.

Just got this nice email indicating an award for Tekton:


http://5slicesofbaloney.blogspot.com/

It is with great pleasure that I announce this week's Baloney Buster of the Week award. This week's award goes to James Patrick Holding for his Tektonics site. Special note goes to his sister site "Tektoonics" and "The Apostate Who Wasn't All There." If you'd like to see a curvaceous Easter bunny dropping two ton weights on an atheist's head then this is the place.

:hehe: I'll send a thank you after lunch.

[Darth Executor]

Why don't you just ask fleming for some free ones, keep one and use the others for either skete-shooting or making those clocks that people make out of CDs and DVDs?

I think he makes you buy the ones for his campaign.

And my parents are paranoid. If they saw an atheist video addressed to me they'd think I deconverted or something. :lolo: Plus, I'm not a woman so I avoid drama like I avoid dipping my nipples in gasoline and setting them on fire.

[JSDileo]

I think he makes you buy the ones for his campaign.

And my parents are paranoid. If they saw an atheist video addressed to me they'd think I deconverted or something. :lolo: Plus, I'm not a woman so I avoid drama like I avoid dipping my nipples in gasoline and setting them on fire.

Where the heck did you get that analogy from?:hrm:

[Darth Executor]

I got the style from Maddox. His was a bit more straightforward but Dee Dee would have my head if I posted it. :teeth:

[jpholding]

It's been a week and I assume there's been to reply to Dee Dee from Flemming. Meanwhile on Flemming's blog he's highlighting that Jack Van Impe's site received a question that asked if people like Flemming and Dan Brown would be judged by God.

Chicken Brian doesn't seem to want to mention his Tekton/Tektoon grilling or come here to face me.

[jpholding]

Sheila just posted a comment at http://www.waroneaster.org/category/around-the-web/ under the May 1 entry asking when Chicken Brian was going to come over here.

If he doesn't, I might just tear apart his latest entry to "The Calvinist" instead.

[dizzle]

I can't find that entry

[jpholding]

Maybe try a refresh? But here's what it says:



The debate was billed as The Calvinist vs. Brian Flemming.

But it has really turned into The Calvinist vs. The Calvinist.

The Calvinist:

If Jesus is the result of conflation of pre-existing religious stories, please produce any of those sources, without regard to genre or date – with the minor qualification that the sources predate the authorship of Mark as you have agreed to it in 70 AD. I’d be willing to give you a blank check in word count to cut-and-paste those stories here in translation, side-by-side with the passages of the NT you think use them for source material.

Vs. The Calvinist:

I found Brian’s essay here instructive in several ways, but the most interesting was his claim that I am demanding that he prove the Gospels were plagerized. In fact, I was demanding nothing of the sort.

Of course, we should expect this sort of cognitive dissonance in CalvinWorld. In CalvinWorld, a god who suffers so that you can have salvation is nothing like a god who suffers so that you can have salvation. Totally dissimilar creatures, really.

Is The Calvinist merely exhibiting the toxic effects of sincere blind faith, or is he aware of the emptiness of his arguments? Post your guess in the comments. (But be gentle–he’ll be reading your comments.)

Oh, and if you are unfamiliar with the Christ Myth argument, Brian’s latest response spells out the case. At length. And by “at length,” we mean grab refreshments. Bat Boy appears in the final act, so be ready for that.

[Christy]

I had to see Batboy for my tap class about a year and a half ago. It was really campy, but the actors and everything were good, and the props and everything. However, the play wasn't that good, and most other people didn't like it either. In other words, it sucked butt.

[jpholding]

More delusiuons of grandeur from Flemming, on his own blog:

One thing about debating Christians--eventually, it becomes evident that the root of the problem lies not in any disagreements over facts or interpretations, but instead in the warped logic of blind faith. When two scientists argue, for example, they generally agree at least on the method one should use to evaluate evidence. That's how their argument can potentially be productive. And one thing they agree on in terms of method is that they will both honestly endeavor to understand what the other side is trying to communicate.

But when a nonbeliever and a believer argue, the believer has a trump card. Blind faith gives the believer a free pass to refuse to see what the other side is saying. Denial of the obvious is a key component of religious belief, and the believer will bring this denial with him even when he ventures out into the real world. There is little question in my mind that this is what is happening with centuri0n. The interesting question is the nature of the refusal--whether he can't see it or won't see it, or somewhere between the two.

And I wonder if centuri0n considers his ability to deny the obvious a feat of faith--perhaps the better I make my case, the more faithful and closer to God centuri0n feels when he refuses to see.

And amusingly, he then quotes a comment from a similarly befuddled atehist reader from the waroneaster blog, which was made AFTER Sheila's repeat of the challenge to debate me.

Where'z that blown up irony meter....

[jpholding]

I'm going to start tearing up his response to Calvinist for a Friday post.

[Darth Executor]

I'd comment but I don't have full motor control of my arms yet.

[Cynic Sage]

More delusiuons of grandeur from Flemming, on his own blog:



And amusingly, he then quotes a comment from a similarly befuddled atehist reader from the waroneaster blog, which was made AFTER Sheila's repeat of the challenge to debate me.

Where'z that blown up irony meter....

What was the comment and who said it?

[jpholding]

What was the comment and who said it?

http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ has it under the May 2 entry. By Joel. I can't copy and paste from the waroneaster thing and it's too long to retype.

[jpholding]

http://www.tektonics.org/af/flemmingflushing.html

Meanwhile someone on the waroneaster blog under the name Luken is reading Flemming the riot act. :hehe:

[GakuseiDon]

The "Rational Response Squad", a group of Jesus Mythers, have interviewed Brian Flemming a few times on their internet radio program, and earlier asked for questions. I gave them a list of 20 questions, and they actually asked him the first one, which is about Beddru! I think Flemming is embarrassed and trying to clear the air on Beddru. Apparently it was a cut and paste error...

This is a clip of Flemming's reply, which can be found here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/media/FlemmingAnswersAGdonQuestion.mp3

Here is the transcription, pretty much complete, minus a couple of comments from the RRS interviewers. I put the actual questions I asked below the transcription:
-----------------------
RRS Interviewer:

Brian, on the message board we had a question... we figured we'd sneak one question in from GDon who put together a list of questions that hopefully we'll have some historians answer in there. But the question was: "Beddru of Japan seems to have been created by Kersey Graves in the 19th C. How did that name end up in The God Who Wasn't There movie? "

Brian Flemming:

You know, one thing that I regret, is that the word Beddru -- B-e-d-d-r-u -- I never mention anything about that figure in the movie but unfortunately it's in a background graphic where you can really see it and that's a mistake -- that shouldn't be in there. What I did was I cut and pasted from a list of gods that I was researching to find out "were these true or were they not" and I should not have put that one on the list.

Kersey Graves appears to have made that up. And so people who say, you know, that Kersey Graves is full of crap and this Beddru thing -- he only knows about it [so] its probably false -- they're actually right, and I'm going to change that in the second edition of the DVD.

I do have to clear up this whole, you know, I wish that I hadn't used a word that's associated with Kersey Graves anywhere in the movie, because there aren't any ideas associated with Kersey Graves anywhere in the movie. And Richard Carrier early on in my research actually steered me away and said "don't", you know, "he cheated, he's not anybody to rely on".

So unfortunately what they are doing in this movie that's over an hour long, they take one background graphic that appears for like one second and they blow it up to represent the whole movie.

RRS Interviewer:

Right. It's good that at least you admit that, cause there are people who wouldn't even... they cling to their fundamentalist idea...

Flemming:

Yeah, I think that I need to come out with a second edition of the DVD and correct mistakes as well as just remove stuff that people are clinging to that isn't terribly -- it's sort of tangiental -- but basically rip -- The kind of good thing is that I can tell right now what all the arguments people are using against the movie are and I can create a second edition of the DVD that says absolutely the same thing in every way but doesn't include any of these sideline issues of these people, and I hope to do that actually soon enough that I can send that DVD to the people who are making the movie "The God Who Was There" -- do you know these fundamentalists are making an answer movie to "The God Who Wasn't There"...

I hope to get a corrected edition out there so that basically all the stuff that these people are doing to try to attack the movie becomes moot, because of the second edition with corrections and I've admitted mistakes that I've made. Which will probably stun them that you know someone can actually admit that they made made a mistake. They won't understand -- they come from a religious standpoint where they can never admit that anything is wrong at all that's in the Bible or anything they've said is ever wrong, whereas I'm rational, I can say "oh I made a mistake here and here and I'm going to correct them".
-----------------------

All that's interesting. I like how he says that "they take one frame and make it represent the whole movie". Lots of problems have been pointed out, which he seems to admit when he talks about removing "mistakes". I wonder if we can get a list of the mistakes according to Flemming? Apparently he can admit them, since he is rational!

And here are my 20 questions for Flemming (plus a couple of more general questions):

1. Beddru of Japan seems to have been created by Kersey Graves in the 19th C. How did that name end up in TGWWT movie?

2. How could a god myth in Japan affect the pre-Christian world of the middle east?

3. What similarities does Beddru have with Christ?

4. Who is 'Deva Tat of Siam'?

5. In TGWWT, some Christians are asked about Mithras, Dionysus and Osiris. What does Brian know about them and their similarities to Christ? Can Brian recount their stories?

6. What gods were born of a virgin on December 25? Can Brian name a few? And where did he get the information from? Was it the same source that talked about Beddru of Japan?

7. What gods were visited by Magi from the East? Where did he get the information from?

8. What gods turned water into wine? Is it only Dionysus? Can Brian recount the story? Does Dionysus actually turn water into wine himself?

9. Which gods were transfigured before followers? Can Brian recount the stories?

10. Which god myths contained a story of being betrayed by 30 pieces of silver? Can Brian recount the stories?

11. Which religions celebrated a Communal Meal which represented the Savior’s Flesh and Blood?

12. Of the 17 gods listed in TGWWT having similar attributes to Jesus, has Brian actually researched those gods for their stories? Can he explain how, say, Baal and Thor share attributes with Jesus?

13. In Luke 19:27, Jesus said in a parable, "Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me." Why wasn't it pointed out that this was a parable, and not a command that Jesus was giving to his disciples?

14. Where did Brian get the "crucified Orpheus" amulet image from? Is he aware that it has been identified as a forgery?

15. Does Brian really believe that Justin Martyr tried to downplay pagan similarities to Christ by claiming that Satan looked into the future to perform "plagiarism in advance"?

16. When Brian says that "diabolical mimicry" is the explanation "to this day", who is actually using it as an explanation?

17. Richard Carrier has stated that "we have no reason to expect any historical record of a HJ [historical Jesus]. We are lucky to have any sources at all from that time and place, and those sources do not record every movement or its founder". Does Brian agree?

18. Has Brian looked at Paul in context of the literature of the day? If it were traditional to write using a timeless rather than a contemporary feel by leaving out distinctly historical events, should that be considered when evaluating Paul?

19. Later apologists who believed in a HJ also wrote apologies without any historical details about Jesus. Is that surprising to Brian?

20. Paul says that Christ was an Israelite from the tribe of Judah who "came out of Jerusalem", was crucified, possibly at Passover, and died sometime after Moses and probably in Paul's recent past. How does the fit the Jesus Myth?

Other general questions:

21. In an interview, Brian says that there was no Nazareth during the time of Christ, but Richard Carrier says that there almost certainly was. Has Brian checked this with Richard Carrier?

22. Brian apparently is a fan of Doherty's Jesus Puzzle. I know quite a lot about Doherty's views, and I've found that few Doherty supporters can coherently discuss where Doherty places the crucifixion of Christ. Can Brian summarize Doherty's view here?

[jpholding]

All that's interesting. I like how he says that "they take one frame and make it represent the whole movie". Lots of problems have been pointed out, which he seems to admit when he talks about removing "mistakes". I wonder if we can get a list of the mistakes according to Flemming? Apparently he can admit them, since he is rational!

You're more charitable than I am. :teeth: I think he's backed into a corner and not being rational because he wants to here, but because he has no other choice.

In any event it still speaks volumes for the depths of his carelessness, and I'll make sure no one forgets he made use of it and all the other stuff.

[Cynic Sage]

And here are my 20 questions for Flemming (plus a couple of more general questions):

1. Beddru of Japan seems to have been created by Kersey Graves in the 19th C. How did that name end up in TGWWT movie?

2. How could a god myth in Japan affect the pre-Christian world of the middle east?

3. What similarities does Beddru have with Christ?

4. Who is 'Deva Tat of Siam'?

5. In TGWWT, some Christians are asked about Mithras, Dionysus and Osiris. What does Brian know about them and their similarities to Christ? Can Brian recount their stories?

6. What gods were born of a virgin on December 25? Can Brian name a few? And where did he get the information from? Was it the same source that talked about Beddru of Japan?

7. What gods were visited by Magi from the East? Where did he get the information from?

8. What gods turned water into wine? Is it only Dionysus? Can Brian recount the story? Does Dionysus actually turn water into wine himself?

9. Which gods were transfigured before followers? Can Brian recount the stories?

10. Which god myths contained a story of being betrayed by 30 pieces of silver? Can Brian recount the stories?

11. Which religions celebrated a Communal Meal which represented the Savior’s Flesh and Blood?

12. Of the 17 gods listed in TGWWT having similar attributes to Jesus, has Brian actually researched those gods for their stories? Can he explain how, say, Baal and Thor share attributes with Jesus?

13. In Luke 19:27, Jesus said in a parable, "Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me." Why wasn't it pointed out that this was a parable, and not a command that Jesus was giving to his disciples?

14. Where did Brian get the "crucified Orpheus" amulet image from? Is he aware that it has been identified as a forgery?

15. Does Brian really believe that Justin Martyr tried to downplay pagan similarities to Christ by claiming that Satan looked into the future to perform "plagiarism in advance"?

16. When Brian says that "diabolical mimicry" is the explanation "to this day", who is actually using it as an explanation?

17. Richard Carrier has stated that "we have no reason to expect any historical record of a HJ [historical Jesus]. We are lucky to have any sources at all from that time and place, and those sources do not record every movement or its founder". Does Brian agree?

18. Has Brian looked at Paul in context of the literature of the day? If it were traditional to write using a timeless rather than a contemporary feel by leaving out distinctly historical events, should that be considered when evaluating Paul?

19. Later apologists who believed in a HJ also wrote apologies without any historical details about Jesus. Is that surprising to Brian?

20. Paul says that Christ was an Israelite from the tribe of Judah who "came out of Jerusalem", was crucified, possibly at Passover, and died sometime after Moses and probably in Paul's recent past. How does the fit the Jesus Myth?

Other general questions:

21. In an interview, Brian says that there was no Nazareth during the time of Christ, but Richard Carrier says that there almost certainly was. Has Brian checked this with Richard Carrier?

22. Brian apparently is a fan of Doherty's Jesus Puzzle. I know quite a lot about Doherty's views, and I've found that few Doherty supporters can coherently discuss where Doherty places the crucifixion of Christ. Can Brian summarize Doherty's view here?

WHy don't you email your questions to Fleming or maybe post them as comments at his blog to see how he responds.

[jpholding]

He already has his response:


" ".

[jpholding]

Got a nice thank you note from the fellow Flemming was debating.

Meanwhile, would anyone care to go over to The Beast community forums with me and cause some havoc? I'd like to have at least a half dozen of us.

[Cynic Sage]

Got a nice thank you note from the fellow Flemming was debating.

Meanwhile, would anyone care to go over to The Beast community forums with me and cause some havoc? I'd like to have at least a half dozen of us.
Hey JP, I thought you had a policy of staying on Tweb?

[jpholding]

Hey JP, I thought you had a policy of staying on Tweb?

I make an exception for special irritants. :hehe: You know of one from last year. And even then it's always for a limited time and with a group.

[GakuseiDon]

WHy don't you email your questions to Fleming or maybe post them as comments at his blog to see how he responds.
Well, I went to do just that, and found this latest entry in his blog:
http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/archives/002144.html
____________________________________

So you want to debate me...

So you would like to challenge me about the claims I make in The God Who Wasn't There?

No problem. But please understand that I get a lot of these requests, and I can't waste my time arguing with people who are not open to changing their minds or who haven't developed enough familiarity with the material.

So just download and sign this "Statement of Belief" PDF, have it notarized, then mail it to Beyond Belief Media. Then we can talk.

If you are unable to sign the Statement, we cannot talk any further, for one or both of the following reasons:

1) You are not familiar enough with the facts to be ready for a meaningful discussion at this time.

2) Your capacity to understand the facts is so compromised by your religious ideology that a conversation with you would be pointless.
____________________________________

This is the "Statement of Belief" that he wants people to sign before debating them:
____________________________________

STATEMENT OF BELIEF

I believe it is possible that Jesus did not exist.

I believe there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ that dates to the time of his alleged life.

I believe there are no written eyewitness accounts of the existence of Jesus Christ.

I believe the names of the Gospels were added well after their composition, and there is no good reason to believe that these names correspond to the original writers.

I believe there is no good reason to believe that any of the Gospels were written by disciples of Jesus Christ, or that any eyewitnesses to Jesus were involved in their composition.

I believe the Bible is not infallible.

I believe it is common for religious cults to make things up.

I believe it is common for religions to influence each other, and for young religions to be derived from older religions.

I believe that any claim can be part of Christian tradition and also be false.

I believe that no figures such as "God" or "The Holy Spirit" or "Satan" performed any supernatural actions that had any significant effect upon the formation of early Christianity.

I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the foregoing is true and correct.

SIGNATURE OF BELIEVER
____________________________________

I think Brian has lost the plot. Has he not met any atheists who know that the "copycat claims" are rubbish?

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Isn't Brian making his own statements in the "statement of belief" so that there's nothing to actually debate?

[GakuseiDon]

Isn't Brian making his own statements in the "statement of belief" so that there's nothing to actually debate?
I think he wants to have grounds to refuse debates with knowledgeable Christians. Perhaps we should have a "statement of belief" ourselves for Flemming to sign, and include items like "I believe that Kersey Graves is not a reliable source". :)

Anyway, I'm a liberal Christian, and most of these I wouldn't object to. I not sure whether he would debate me, though.

My answers:

I believe it is possible that Jesus did not exist.
-- I suppose it is possible.

I believe there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ that dates to the time of his alleged life.
-- True.

I believe there are no written eyewitness accounts of the existence of Jesus Christ.
-- True.

I believe the names of the Gospels were added well after their composition, and there is no good reason to believe that these names correspond to the original writers.
-- I disagree. There are good reasons to think that a Luke wrote GLuke, at the least. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/luke.html

I believe there is no good reason to believe that any of the Gospels were written by disciples of Jesus Christ, or that any eyewitnesses to Jesus were involved in their composition.
-- Luke states that eyewitnesses delivered the story "to us". I suppose that Flemming can decide that this isn't a "good reason", though I'd like to hear a "good reason" for him to reject this.

I believe the Bible is not infallible.
-- I agree.

I believe it is common for religious cults to make things up.
-- I agree. In the same way as it is common for 19th C hacks to make things up (and people to repeat them as well). :)

I believe it is common for religions to influence each other, and for young religions to be derived from older religions.
-- I agree. For example, Christianity was derived from Judaism.

I believe that any claim can be part of Christian tradition and also be false.
-- I agree. For example, "Jesus was born on Christmas Day".

I believe that no figures such as "God" or "The Holy Spirit" or "Satan" performed any supernatural actions that had any significant effect upon the formation of early Christianity.
-- Hmmm... Is he talking about belief or evidence? For myself, I'm not sure that there is enough hard evidence around today to convince either way, though I have no bias against the supernatural. I have to wonder what evidence Flemming himself has in order to make such a positive claim. Or is his just a belief?

So, I wonder if I would pass? It's tempting to try. I suppose the last point is the sticking one.

[jpholding]

No problem. But please understand that I get a lot of these requests, and I can't waste my time arguing with people who are not open to changing their minds or who haven't developed enough familiarity with the material.

What incredible cowardice!

He decides what your arguments can and will be before you can debate him, with NO qualifications!

I'm going to have a field day with THIS! :hehe:

I'll post some comments on Tekton today.


Anyway, I'm a liberal Christian, and most of these I wouldn't object to. I not sure whether he would debate me, though.

The thing is that you have qualified some in a way he doesn't want to hear. His obvious point about religions influencing each other is that he wants you to agree with him that PAGAN religions influenced Christianity, not that Judaism did (which is something only KJV Only fundies would utterly deny). And so on. This is obviously meant to keep him out of debate with knowledgeable Christians, as you say, and also obviously a way for him to avoid debating the issues in depth as they need to be.

[Christy]

Brian Flemming said in his blog: No problem. But please understand that I get a lot of these requests, and I can't waste my time arguing with people who are not open to changing their minds or who haven't developed enough familiarity with the material.


It seems like he's talking about himself, with that not changing their' minds bit.

[jpholding]

Yes, that is just one his usual "that can be turned back on you too" statements. More and more it is clear that he just opts for quick fixes and avoidance when he runs into problems.

My comments on it are now up as an appendix to the article I posted last week.

[Darth Executor]

Hey JP, can you make a Sir Flemming the Chickenheart drawing? I think it would fit right in.

[jpholding]

Hey JP, can you make a Sir Flemming the Chickenheart drawing? I think it would fit right in.

I'm thinking about a new Sheila toon that will get that message across.... :hehe:

[Cynic Sage]

This is a clip of Flemming's reply, which can be found here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/media/FlemmingAnswersAGdonQuestion.mp3

Here is the transcription, pretty much complete, minus a couple of comments from the RRS interviewers. I put the actual questions I asked below the transcription:
-----------------------
RRS Interviewer:

Brian, on the message board we had a question... we figured we'd sneak one question in from GDon who put together a list of questions that hopefully we'll have some historians answer in there. But the question was: "Beddru of Japan seems to have been created by Kersey Graves in the 19th C. How did that name end up in The God Who Wasn't There movie? "

Brian Flemming:

You know, one thing that I regret, is that the word Beddru -- B-e-d-d-r-u -- I never mention anything about that figure in the movie but unfortunately it's in a background graphic where you can really see it and that's a mistake -- that shouldn't be in there. What I did was I cut and pasted from a list of gods that I was researching to find out "were these true or were they not" and I should not have put that one on the list.

Kersey Graves appears to have made that up. And so people who say, you know, that Kersey Graves is full of crap and this Beddru thing -- he only knows about it [so] its probably false -- they're actually right, and I'm going to change that in the second edition of the DVD.

I do have to clear up this whole, you know, I wish that I hadn't used a word that's associated with Kersey Graves anywhere in the movie, because there aren't any ideas associated with Kersey Graves anywhere in the movie. And Richard Carrier early on in my research actually steered me away and said "don't", you know, "he cheated, he's not anybody to rely on".

So unfortunately what they are doing in this movie that's over an hour long, they take one background graphic that appears for like one second and they blow it up to represent the whole movie.

RRS Interviewer:

Right. It's good that at least you admit that, cause there are people who wouldn't even... they cling to their fundamentalist idea...

Flemming:

Yeah, I think that I need to come out with a second edition of the DVD and correct mistakes as well as just remove stuff that people are clinging to that isn't terribly -- it's sort of tangiental -- but basically rip -- The kind of good thing is that I can tell right now what all the arguments people are using against the movie are and I can create a second edition of the DVD that says absolutely the same thing in every way but doesn't include any of these sideline issues of these people, and I hope to do that actually soon enough that I can send that DVD to the people who are making the movie "The God Who Was There" -- do you know these fundamentalists are making an answer movie to "The God Who Wasn't There"...

I hope to get a corrected edition out there so that basically all the stuff that these people are doing to try to attack the movie becomes moot, because of the second edition with corrections and I've admitted mistakes that I've made. Which will probably stun them that you know someone can actually admit that they made made a mistake. They won't understand -- they come from a religious standpoint where they can never admit that anything is wrong at all that's in the Bible or anything they've said is ever wrong, whereas I'm rational, I can say "oh I made a mistake here and here and I'm going to correct them".
-----------------------


[attachment]
click thumbnail

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

[attachment]
click thumbnail



:lmbo: that's so funny, Johnny EC.

[jpholding]

http://www.community.thebeastmovie.com/viewforum.php?f=26&sid=547474f6520e3be0ae00d46089e643c2

This link leads to a forum for Flemming's "Beast' movie, a subsection devoted to TGWWT.

The question: Is it worth an effort for me to spend some time hammering at these deluded souls, or not?

GDon's there as "A Christian" and has a lot of tolerance, I suppose, for rampant stupidity :wink: of the sort we see here. Though I think I detect some gentle sarcasm, do I, there, GDon? :hehe:

Just looking at the one he started titled, "Brian Flemming says that there are errors in his movie".

*"Andrew Merritt" responded to GDon's bit about the Beddru error with a mere link to my reply to Dan Schneider. He says things like:

Did you read it?Personally I find that the best sources to debunk the bible and the reality of a flesh and blood Jesus who walked the earth are the bible itself and the desprate if not at times humourose attempts of believers defending there faith.In fact it was the christian apolagetics that led me to believe the bible was indeed a artificle religion created in the image of mans culture.Really look at the arguements closely.This one is my fave.Plus I like the Duke boys

Wow. He can't even spell "apologetics" and "arguements" and that convinced him it was a bum deal. And he doesn't even list an argument, much less explain why it is wrong.

* "Goth_slut" (who is a common poster) seems to admit that the error was made and says:

But it's also important to note, that the entire movie shouldn't be ignored over a relatively trivial problem such as the whole beddru thing.

EVERY scholar makes such mistakes from time to time, and I think that the beddru thing is relatively minor in scale.

(I like Graceman's reply to her. :hehe:)

* Then we have "The Intrepid Traveller" who is apparently convinced of a conspiracy going on in more than one place:

Why do you think "the church" playing down the Dead Sea Scrolls? Why not try a little digging and find the answer for yourself, not because someone else told you. No one is either right or wrong, it's what works for you. The Christ is real, he's just not Jewish

My point is, who has the absolute truth in this? Just like I'm sure that there are some grains of truth in the 9/11 conspiracy theories.




It would perhaps be amusing to toy with some of these people, but I'm not clear on whether it would be worthwhile. My instinct says no. These are certified screwballs, not serious opponents.


I have one idea....


GDon, would you be willing to post a debate challenge for me there? Start a new thread noting that JPH is seeking challengers for a debate on the film and its claims, since Flemming won't do it?

Or should I show up and issue the challenge myself?

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

I joined the Beast forums last December and posted a couple of times, but having come across the same certified nutcases I decided it wasn't worth my time - the best moment there remains having Acharya apologise to me. :hehe:

[Darth Executor]

:hrm:

My main concern is that their stupidity is contagious. If you're asking for a vote, I'm saying :thumbd: to wasting time, but if you're gonna go I won't back out.

[jpholding]

Wow. You two are like night and day personality-wise, but you voted the same. That's telling, isn't it! :glare:

Any more arguments pro or con?

[Darth Executor]

I'm guessing I'm night. :hehe:

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Wow. You two are like night and day personality-wise, but you voted the same. That's telling, isn't it! :glare:

Any more arguments pro or con?
Honestly, JP if I started doing serious posting over there I'd be like (theoretically) you posting at IIDB. Spending an hour correcting a single post!

EDIT: I'll support you if you go JP, but I'll probably post as often as John Meier addressed GA Wells in his books...

[jpholding]

I'm guessing I'm night. :hehe:

Uhhh... :teeth: I didn't mean it quite that way. If I had to identify you guys, it would be more like good cop and bad cop, with you as bad cop.


Honestly, JP if I started doing serious posting over there I'd be like (theoretically) you posting at IIDB. Spending an hour correcting a single post!

Well...with copy and paste, maybe I'd spend 15 minutes correcting each one. :hehe: I think I'll see what I can do about getting one of them to debate me first.

[jpholding]

Got his attention for sure. Just noted this on Flemming's blog:


Christian apologist J.P. Holding admits that Jesus never existed

This is a stunner. Talk about strange bedfellows.

A notorious Christian apologist named J.P. Holding has admitted that the case made in The God Who Wasn't There is so solid that he could not refute it in a debate. He has backed out of a former debate challenge by stating:

I believe that Brian Flemming is right and that he will win any debate.

Wow.

Of course, as you probably suspect, that's not the whole story. Mr. Holding is being sarcastic in the above statement. He says that if he signed the required Statement of Belief, that would be the same thing as saying, "I believe that Brian Flemming is right."

But that tells us a lot right there, doesn't it?

He's essentially said this:

If the propositions in the Statement of Belief are true, Jesus did not exist.

I don't see how it could be read any other way. J.P. Holding is essentially admitting that without the supernatural trump card, his position loses.

No rational person familiar with the facts could disagree with the Statement of Belief. Every one of those assertions is as obvious as "Brian Flemming takes enormous glee in manipulating Christian lunatics." The only way not to believe them is to use the magic of faith.

So, rational people rejoice. A Christian apologist has freed you to believe that Jesus didn't exist.

And he's admitted that if it weren't for the crazy part of his brain, he'd believe that, too.

To read Mr. Holding's statement, scroll all the way down at this page.

(Oh, and here's a window, possibly, into why J.P. Holding has a fixation on my movie. Imagine that you thought your eternal happiness was dependent on the whim of a notably temperamental sky god. And now imagine this sky god Googled you. Would He understand the meaning of "Sponsored Links"?)

Wow. :hehe: He's off his meds fer sure.

I'll put this on the mat tomorrow. Got to leave for now.

[Cynic Sage]

Got his attention for sure. Just noted this on Flemming's blog:



Wow. :hehe: He's off his meds fer sure.

I'll put this on the mat tomorrow. Got to leave for now.

You forgot the link.

http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/archives/002146.html (http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/archives/002146.html)

Man that guy is stupid. :lolo:

[jpholding]

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere7.html

New toon. And I'll have an updated article up shortly.

[RumTumTugger]

http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere7.html

New toon. And I'll have an updated article up shortly.

he really has that as terms before you can debate him?

[jpholding]

he really has that as terms before you can debate him?

The first two, yes:

I believe it is possible that Jesus did not exist.

I believe there are no written eyewitness accounts of the existence of Jesus Christ.

I believe the names of the Gospels were added well after their composition, and there is no good reason to believe that these names correspond to the original writers.

While the third is obviously hyperbole to make a point. :teeth: Flemming would certainly ask us to stand on hot coals to debate him, not ask us to upset the Pyramid of Giza.

[GakuseiDon]

GDon, would you be willing to post a debate challenge for me there? Start a new thread noting that JPH is seeking challengers for a debate on the film and its claims, since Flemming won't do it?
More than happy to, JP. I've create the thread here:
http://www.thebeastmovie.com/forums/showthread.php?p=26362#post26362

I've made it specific to Flemming though. I don't doubt that people there will accept your challenge, but there is only one person there who makes any sense -- a guy called martini. Most of the rest all think that Acharya S is the epitome of academic research -- seriously! But I'd love to see Flemming debate a knowledgeable Christian.

Hopefully, under the old adage that "any publicity is good publicity", Flemming will be motivated to accept it, but I predict that it won't happen until interest in the movie has died out, or perhaps as a promotional activity for the second edition of the DVD. I don't want to appear cynical, but I suspect that Flemming is more interested in promoting the movie than in promoting the facts.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

I've started posting again at the Beast forum :hehe:

[jpholding]

More than happy to, JP. I've create the thread here:
http://www.thebeastmovie.com/forums/showthread.php?p=26362#post26362


And I see Beastmaster has already hidden behind a security blanket. :lol:

Perhaps I will come over and kick some rear next week.

[jpholding]

Sheila's on the Beast forum now wreaking havoc...

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

:thumb:

[sc_q_jayce]

Is it just me or did the forum 404?

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Is it just me or did the forum 404?
Yep I got that too. Oh well...

Edit: Brian's blog & waroneaster.org are still up. :huh:

Edit #2: the rationalresponders site is down, too.

[Higon]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa! :bawl: I was having a good time reading The Beast forum and now it goes all 404 on me! Not fair!

[jpholding]

Is it just me or did the forum 404?

Glad it's not just me.

Maybe that joke someone made here about it being based on some low baud modem isn't as far off from the truth as it seems.

Uh oh. Soon the FBI will be calling me about initiating a TOS attack. :lolo:

[sc_q_jayce]

Yep I got that too. Oh well...

Edit: Brian's blog & waroneaster.org are still up. :huh:

Edit #2: the rationalresponders site is down, too.
Correction. waroneaster.org is down as well.

Blog still up. Why do I care. :rasberry:

[jpholding]

The forum is back up now.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

One of the mods at the Beast is crying over Sheila's presence at the forum:

http://www.thebeastmovie.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26785&postcount=10

[sc_q_jayce]

One of the mods at the Beast is crying over Sheila's presence at the forum:

http://www.thebeastmovie.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26785&postcount=10
http://www.thebeastmovie.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26817&postcount=1

as a follow up.

The man's intelligence is so low that I don't even really know how to start this. How in the world does he believe that Shelia is a sock puppet? The only thing I can see is that the person has no indication of reading Holding's material.

With words like "my leige" in referring to "himself" and things like that, one would think they would have the intelligence of figuring it out rather quickly.

Oh well.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

It amounts to them screaming and seeking the fastest way out of a burning building.

[Spheniscine]

"Sheila" is a rather nasty character, given to insults and condescension
:lmbo:

[{Tim}]

http://www.thebeastmovie.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26817&postcount=1

as a follow up.

The man's intelligence is so low that I don't even really know how to start this. How in the world does he believe that Shelia is a sock puppet? The only thing I can see is that the person has no indication of reading Holding's material.

With words like "my leige" in referring to "himself" and things like that, one would think they would have the intelligence of figuring it out rather quickly.

Oh well.
I think he's misapplying the term "sock puppet" to mean that JP is using a false identity, unless he actually thinks JP is already a member (possible!). You certainly seem to be right about him not having read tektoonics, though. :doh:

[jpholding]

Sheila hasn't checked in for the day yet, but she's having a lot of fun with this. :hehe: The place seems to be pretty barren of both members and intelligent opposition (Ms. Goth I'd rate an exception). If a bunch of informed Christians showed up they could literally take over the place. :wink:

[jpholding]

One of the mods at the Beast is crying over Sheila's presence at the forum:

http://www.thebeastmovie.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26785&postcount=10

There's nothing like a big shout over the color of the carpet when your house is burning down, eh? :hehe:

It's funny how they think Sheila is "promoting" me. What? Because she cites my articles? What, she has to go find someone else who didn't do as thorough a job? (Next she'll be Glenn Miller, too, if she cites enough of HIS work....or maybe you will be Glenn, Punkish. We're all the same person, after all.) :hehe:

If they follow through on the plan to change the username, or ban, Sheila will just hand me the reins and we'll just use TWeb and/or Tekton and/or Tektoonics as places to embarrass Flemming's Coterie of Flemmthrowers. :thumb:

[P-Dunn]

JP, you should do the same thing on WWGHA's forums. That would be hilarious to watch...

[jpholding]

What's that an acronym for, again? :huh:

[P-Dunn]

Why Won't God Heal Amputees? Could have also been Why Does God Hate Amputees? They're here. (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum)

If you choose to, happy skeptic stuffing.

[Marko]

I notice Shelia has now been banned from the Beast forum........

[jpholding]

Why Won't God Heal Amputees? Could have also been Why Does God Hate Amputees? They're here. (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum)

If you choose to, happy skeptic stuffing.

Oh, THAT foolishness. :hehe: It did used to be the other name.


I had it out with one of those sorts here already (Underlings).


I notice Shelia has now been banned from the Beast forum........

As I expected. :teeth: Eddie is clearly a mere child incapable of answering actual arguments and started the thread as a pretense at democracy, with the decision already made (by Flemming himself, I'm sure). If it were anything else, her final challenge would have received a direct reaction...and his admission to have not read any of her arguments speaks for itself.

I'll work up something for tektoonics on those folks.



Punkish, I do have one idea for you on the "no cross" thread. Show them:

http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/alex_graffito.htm

I guess the pagans must have not read Dan Barker's brilliant arguments. :hehe: That sure looks like a cross to me. Eh?

Be careful. Using this proves you are a "sock puppet" of Rodney Decker. :lol:

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Excellent, I did want to use that but I'd forgotten the graffiti line, so I couldn't search for it. Yes, I'll use that.

[P-Dunn]

Oh, THAT foolishness. It did used to be the other name.


I had it out with one of those sorts here already (Underlings).
Gotcha. Do you remember which one of them it was?

[jpholding]

Gotcha. Do you remember which one of them it was?

He signed on here as "Underlings" (I mean that as his login name :smile: ) and made a fool of himself in one of the past Screwball threads, as I recall.

[jpholding]

I think my server is doing some maintenance, so I can't load this right now, but here's a toon that will go up as soon as I can get it up...

[attachment=1]

...with a quote from Flemming: ""...providing ready-made interpretations and steering the flock away from source material is a common strategy." :hehe:

EDIT: Maybe it's that the server address hasn't propogated yet. If you can see this up at http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere8.html let me know.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Yep, toon's up. :thumb:

[Philosophickle]

Uhh, Sheila? I believe your "Goth" friend has joined TWeb. Just a heads up...

[Darth Executor]

I think my server is doing some maintenance, so I can't load this right now, but here's a toon that will go up as soon as I can get it up...

[attachment=1]

...with a quote from Flemming: ""...providing ready-made interpretations and steering the flock away from source material is a common strategy." :hehe:

EDIT: Maybe it's that the server address hasn't propogated yet. If you can see this up at http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere8.html let me know.

Works for me.

[Cynic Sage]

EDIT: Maybe it's that the server address hasn't propogated yet. If you can see this up at http://www.tektoonics.com/notthere/notthere8.html let me know.

[attachment]
click to enlarge

[Cynic Sage]

Oops, accidentally asked alread-answered question, my bad. :blush:

[Darth Executor]

[attachment]
click to enlarge


You should make a compilation thread with all the pwned pictures you can find.

[Ishmael]

You should make a compilation thread with all the pwned pictures you can find.
Quit stealing my ideas, n00b.

[Darth Executor]

Shut your trap fool.

[Ishmael]

Shut your trap fool.
Hasn't JP fired you yet? I do know that he is taking applications for "annoying, know-nothing, self-appointed defender and side-kick," so the writing is on the wall if he hasn't.

[Darth Executor]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm the tekton area bouncer, and I'll give your face a tour of the bottom of a flushing toiled if you don't behave.

[Ishmael]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm the tekton area bouncer, and I'll give your face a tour of the bottom of a flushing toiled if you don't behave.
I don't know what a "toiled" is, but I am guessing it has something to do with you being a retard. Kthx.

[Darth Executor]

I don't know what a "toiled" is, but I am guessing it has something to do with you being a retard. Kthx.

Oh wow, I made a spelling mistake. I guess making a spelling mistake makes me a retard. Which means I just joined your club:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1495071#post1495071

I love Pat Robertson, he is a perfect representation of what the leadership in every small, puney church of his theological viewpoint are saying everytime they stand to speak.

Took me 15 seconds to find. Would you like me to find more? Retard. :lol:

[Ishmael]

Oh wow, I made a spelling mistake. I guess making a spelling mistake makes me a retard.

Nah, there is not really a correlation, you're just a retard.

[Darth Executor]

Nah, there is no t real ly a correlation, you're just a retard.

This is fun. I think I'll ignore you and just make fun of your spelling and grammar instead. Retard.

[Ishmael]

This is fun. I think I'll ignore you and just make fun of your spelling and grammar instead. Retard.
Your new construction is no more right than mine, but you are still retarded-- this chart proves it:

[Darth Executor]

I prefer this scale myself.

[attachment=1]

[Ishmael]

I prefer this scale myself.

[attachment=1]
Your research methods seem suspicious. :shifty:

[Darth Executor]

Your research methods seem suspicious. :shifty:

I assure you good sir, my research is impeccable. [attachment=1]

[jpholding]

Uhh, Sheila? I believe your "Goth" friend has joined TWeb. Just a heads up...

Yes...I invited her. She's very nice. I want everyone to show her the utmost hospitality, and I mean that. :smile:

If you don't, I'll turn you into a Sk'lan in ST #6 or #7.

[Goth_S]

Thanks for the warm welcome. :)
I look forward to future discourse!






Love,
Goth_S

[Darth Executor]

Yes...I invited her. She's very nice. I want everyone to show her the utmost hospitality, and I mean that. :smile:


Have we ever done otherwise? :innocent:

[dizzle]

I said hi in the shoutbox but she didn't see it

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

I said hi in the shoutbox but she didn't see it
Surely you shout in the shoutbox? :huh:

[Cynic Sage]

Thanks for the warm welcome. :)
I look forward to future discourse!






Love,
Goth_S

H'lo. :hi:

[{Tim}]

Thanks for the warm welcome. :)
I look forward to future discourse!






Love,
Goth_S
:hi:

[Goth_S]

I said hi in the shoutbox but she didn't see it


I must not have seen it. :(

But thanks!



Love,
Goth_S

[RumTumTugger]

I must not have seen it. :(

But thanks!



Love,
Goth_S

:hi: Goth_S welcome to the nuthouse er forum. :wink:

[Spheniscine]

Dr. Imus J. Keptic: Christian apologists getting you down? Do you need to pull a pagan god name from your rear, claim the Gospels copied various aspects of Christ from that god, and waste hours of their time trying to track down that god? Or do you need fresh material for your latest Christianity-debunking DVD? Are you out of ideas? Use the Pagan God Name Generator! (http://www.freewebs.com/penguino/pagangodgen/pagangodgen.html)

Wait till Brian Flemming sees this. He'd include the list in his next DVD for sure. :lmbo:

Oh, and no, I will not be making a 'Pagan God Crucifixion Amulet Generator'. It's just a joke.

[jpholding]

Dr. Imus J. Keptic: Christian apologists getting you down? Do you need to pull a pagan god name from your rear, claim the Gospels copied various aspects of Christ from that god, and waste hours of their time trying to track down that god? Or do you need fresh material for your latest Christianity-debunking DVD? Are you out of ideas? Use the Pagan God Name Generator! (http://www.freewebs.com/penguino/pagangodgen/pagangodgen.html)

OK, THAT goes in my parody too. :hehe:


Oh, and no, I will not be making a 'Pagan God Crucifixion Amulet Generator'. It's just a joke.

That's a shame. I was gonna open a shop on eBay....

[Spheniscine]

Well, don't lose hope just yet. We have the next best thing; a 'sample' article of a generated god, complete with amulet photo (courtesy of my sister)!

[papabryant]

Love,
Goth_S :hi:
Welcome!

[GakuseiDon]

I've added a new page to my God Movie review, that looks at Flemming's comments about Beddru, Richard Carrier's comments about the movie, and Flemming's FAQ.

It can be found here: http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseidon/God_Who_Wasnt_There_analysis_update.htm

Let me know if you have any comments, or suggestions for improvement.

Thanks!

[Goth_S]

Would you mind if I placed a link to this, on the Beast forums, if you have not allready done so?


I can't recall if I've seen any update posted on the beast forums.






Love,
Goth_S

[GakuseiDon]

Would you mind if I placed a link to this, on the Beast forums, if you have not allready done so?


I can't recall if I've seen any update posted on the beast forums.
Hi Goth. Sure, no problem. I was considering about putting it on the Beast forum, but then thought that BeastMaster would just start up another round of "Liar liar pants on fire!" posts again, which tends to kill rational debate, so I thought better of it. I don't want to go back there for a while I'm afraid.

I also updated to my comments about Acharya on my website, to indicate that the review was more to do with her website than her book. BM was right that I should have made that clearer.

Regards,
Don

[Goth_S]

Yeah, BM is kinda intense.

And by intense, I mean totally extreeme, in yo' face!!!

He makes some good points though. I just wish his manner was more conducive to discussion.



Gracias, I'll post the link tonight.

On a more personal note, I dunno if I've told you this, but I like the fact that you bothered to take the time to not only watch the movie, but to comment on it. Most people that dissagree with things, don't bother to get that far.

I don't dissagree with quite a few of the conclusions you came to, but the fact that you took the time to rebute some of the things presented in the movie, says quite alot about you.


I hope you come back to the forums soon.




Love,
Goth_S

[GakuseiDon]

On a more personal note, I dunno if I've told you this, but I like the fact that you bothered to take the time to not only watch the movie, but to comment on it. Most people that dissagree with things, don't bother to get that far.

I don't dissagree with quite a few of the conclusions you came to, but the fact that you took the time to rebute some of the things presented in the movie, says quite alot about you.
Thanks GS! I appreciate that. :) I really enjoy the debating process.

I hope you come back to the forums soon.
There are a few more articles I'd like to write before I do, including one on fundamentalist theism and fundamentalist atheism, which should make everyone hate me! :) But thanks again. It's great to see you here.

[jpholding]

I've added a new page to my God Movie review, that looks at Flemming's comments about Beddru, Richard Carrier's comments about the movie, and Flemming's FAQ.

It can be found here: http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseidon/God_Who_Wasnt_There_analysis_update.htm

Let me know if you have any comments, or suggestions for improvement.

Thanks!

Good stuff -- I have nothing to add.

[jpholding]

A year later, something funny is still up.

If you try to go to the old waroneaster.org site, you get forwarded to a site for the Blasphemy Challenge.

There's no hint anywhere that the War on Easter will have a second round this year.

Maybe..,.it was a flop the first time? :ahem:

[woodyster]

Um, yeah. Kind of new to the forums and I always hated it when people respond to a claim with "no reply necesary". But Mr. Flemming seems to be an outlier of my pet peeve. In response to the "war on Easter", I think they are digging themselves deep enough already to make any response I could give completely unnecesary.

[Goth_S]

Um, yeah. Kind of new to the forums and I always hated it when people respond to a claim with "no reply necesary". But Mr. Flemming seems to be an outlier of my pet peeve. In response to the "war on Easter", I think they are digging themselves deep enough already to make any response I could give completely unnecesary.


Digging? To what location?

:wink:


Ultimately, it's a drop in the bucket, really. There have been a number of christian programs out there, aimed at crushing whatever hot-sin of the day that was "morally corrupting every plant animal and human" in whatever corner of the world, so at least it's equal footing at best.

Though I tend to feel that simply because someone else does something, doesn't inherrantly justify it's use by the opposition.


Ultimately though, I think it's the whole "pushing beleifs on others" thing is just a large group of people who take things far far too seriously.


I tend to preffer to give praise to the dark unholy demon of apathy, really.

[Truth be Told]

Um, yeah. Kind of new to the forums and I always hated it when people respond to a claim with "no reply necesary". But Mr. Flemming seems to be an outlier of my pet peeve. In response to the "war on Easter", I think they are digging themselves deep enough already to make any response I could give completely unnecesary.

Don't forget his ignorance of holidays and their origins, *sigh*.

Can you believe that Jesus-mythers still use December 25 as a parallel to pagan gods? Just shows how dead their arguments truly are.