What happened to Enoch and Elijah?

[onehope]

Hi all-

All I am lookin for is some understanding on what happened to Enoch in Hebrews 11:5.

The format in Genesis says Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. The scripture in Hebrews says Enoch was translated that he should not see death and was not found. But before his translation he had this testimony that he pleased God.

Some of the major problems I am having with this is that Jesus said No man has ascended up into heaven. Another one is that when the word 'was not' is used in Genesis (Enoch walked with God and 'was not' for God took him) it is also used in other scriptures to mean that someone died.

The common perception is that Enoch never died. Paul said that 'all these died in faith' which would include Enoch and Elijah both for that matter.

The other problem I am having is the phrase 'and was not found for God had translated him'. If Enoch died because God took him in what sense was 'he not found?'

If he 'was not found' because he was translated to heaven how could Jesus say no man has ascended up into heaven?

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hi all-

All I am lookin for is some understanding on what happened to Enoch in Hebrews 11:5.

The format in Genesis says Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. The scripture in Hebrews says Enoch was translated that he should not see death and was not found. But before his translation he had this testimony that he pleased God.

Some of the major problems I am having with this is that Jesus said No man has ascended up into heaven. Another one is that when the word 'was not' is used in Genesis (Enoch walked with God and 'was not' for God took him) it is also used in other scriptures to mean that someone died.

The common perception is that Enoch never died. Paul said that 'all these died in faith' which would include Enoch and Elijah both for that matter.

The other problem I am having is the phrase 'and was not found for God had translated him'. If Enoch died because God took him in what sense was 'he not found?'

If he 'was not found' because he was translated to heaven how could Jesus say no man has ascended up into heaven?

Hi OneHope. Let's look at your question.

To begin with, in the Hebrew mindset, Heaven would not be mainly the dwelling place of God entirely. It could also refer to the upper realms. This would fit in with a belief in an intermediate state that is not in the direct presence of God meaning that that would be where someone like Elijah would go. I do not believe we go to the final Heaven when we die but are rather in an intermediate state. A good work on this is J.P. Moreland and Gary Habermas's work: Immortality, The Other Side of Death.

The text as I see it states that Enoch did not die and that God took him and the same happened with Elijah. I believe Paul's statement is a more general statement. After all, if we believe in the second coming, there will be plenty in the faith who never die as well. (Even more if you're a pre-trib dispensationalist)

Ultimately then, no man has ascended to the direct dwelling of God. No man has come down either except for Christ. Where are Elijah and Enoch? We can't really say where the intermediate state is, but we can look at Scripture and say that it exists.

The was not in Genesis being so early is probably meant to refer to something different. The other persons in the genealogy are said to die and Enoch is the one who stands out. Fortunately, we have the divine commentary on that in Hebrews 11.

Anyhow, I hope this helps!

[onehope]

Hi OneHope. Let's look at your question.

To begin with, in the Hebrew mindset, Heaven would not be mainly the dwelling place of God entirely. It could also refer to the upper realms. This would fit in with a belief in an intermediate state that is not in the direct presence of God meaning that that would be where someone like Elijah would go. I do not believe we go to the final Heaven when we die but are rather in an intermediate state. A good work on this is J.P. Moreland and Gary Habermas's work: Immortality, The Other Side of Death.

The text as I see it states that Enoch did not die and that God took him and the same happened with Elijah. I believe Paul's statement is a more general statement. After all, if we believe in the second coming, there will be plenty in the faith who never die as well. (Even more if you're a pre-trib dispensationalist)

Ultimately then, no man has ascended to the direct dwelling of God. No man has come down either except for Christ. Where are Elijah and Enoch? We can't really say where the intermediate state is, but we can look at Scripture and say that it exists.

The was not in Genesis being so early is probably meant to refer to something different. The other persons in the genealogy are said to die and Enoch is the one who stands out. Fortunately, we have the divine commentary on that in Hebrews 11.

Anyhow, I hope this helps!
Hi Apologianick- Thanks for your reply

To begin with, in the Hebrew mindset, Heaven would not be mainly the dwelling place of God entirely. It could also refer to the upper realms.

I agree with what you say here in that heaven is not always described in scripture as being the throne of God. Some places it is where the birds fly, some places where the sun, moon and stars are, and then there would be what seems to be called the 'third heaven' where God dwells.

This would fit in with a belief in an intermediate state that is not in the direct presence of God meaning that that would be where someone like Elijah would go.

I don't see how any of these descriptions of heaven given in scripture would fit in with where Elijah would go. If he didn't go to where God's throne is, then the only other two choices we have concerning heaven would be where the birds fly or where the sun, moon and stars are.

I do not believe we go to the final Heaven when we die but are rather in an intermediate state.

If the 'intermediate state' is any of the things defined above then Elijah might be either floating up somewhere where the birds fly or he is in outer space without a space suit.

A good work on this is J.P. Moreland and Gary Habermas's work: Immortality, The Other Side of Death.

If they are saying that Enoch and Elijah have immortality right now, then what do we do with the scripture that states that Jesus is the only one who has immortality?

The text as I see it states that Enoch did not die and that God took him and the same happened with Elijah.

In that Enoch did not die do you believe he has already put on immortality?

It seems that what happened to Elijah is easier to see in scripture than what happened to Enoch. There are definately scriptures that show that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram around 7 years after he was taken up in a whirlwind into heaven. There are also other parts of that account that seem to imply that people knew that the Lord could take him from one place on the earth to another supernaturally.

I believe Paul's statement is a more general statement.

I understand what you are saying here and I could see Enoch as an exception because of how it is written but I am having a problem seeing any intermediate state.

After all, if we believe in the second coming, there will be plenty in the faith who never die as well.

I don't know how many people there will be but scripture does say that we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.

(Even more if you're a pre-trib dispensationalist)

I am not one of those but if I am alive at that time I pray God will give me grace to overcome and to stand before the Son of man.

Ultimately then, no man has ascended to the direct dwelling of God. No man has come down either except for Christ. Where are Elijah and Enoch? We can't really say where the intermediate state is, but we can look at Scripture and say that it exists

Please show me the scripture where it exists.

The was not in Genesis being so early is probably meant to refer to something different.

It seems like it could but I am not sure.

The other persons in the genealogy are said to die and Enoch is the one who stands out.

But there is one thing that it does say and that is ALL the days of Enoch were 365 years. It seems it could imply that 365 years was the sum total of all his days.

Fortunately, we have the divine commentary on that in Hebrews 11.

Amen. I have believed that Enoch was translated for a long time until I saw this scripture in John 3:13. That is the major thing I am having trouble with. It seems everyone doesn't really know how to legitimately deal with what Jesus said there. It seems to be an addition to scripture to say that an 'intermediate place' is the answer for it. Maybe I am all wet and there is a place such as that, but I havn't seen any thing in scripture to uphold it. The contradiction still seems to be there. I have read many people's comments on John 3:13 and none of them seem to be able to completely harmonize what Paul said with what Jesus said. I am not saying that you are wrong or right, I just don't know.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I don't see how any of these descriptions of heaven given in scripture would fit in with where Elijah would go. If he didn't go to where God's throne is, then the only other two choices we have concerning heaven would be where the birds fly or where the sun, moon and stars are.

First off, it was any of those places somewhere, I would not have a problem. I do not really think so. I doubt we could take the intermediate state and locate it on a map, though we have clues to its existence. Jesus said the thief would be with him in Paradise on that day and Paul said he desired to die and be with Christ. (Though he added that to go on living is more necessary.)



If the 'intermediate state' is any of the things defined above then Elijah might be either floating up somewhere where the birds fly or he is in outer space without a space suit.

I believe God is capable of providing in any though I would say the intermediate state could be in the presence of God, but it is not a full bodily presence yet but merely the soul alone.



If they are saying that Enoch and Elijah have immortality right now, then what do we do with the scripture that states that Jesus is the only one who has immortality?

Jesus is the only one who has immortality by nature. After all, in 1 Cor. 15 we're told that we shall put on immortality. That doesn't take away from Jesus does it?



In that Enoch did not die do you believe he has already put on immortality?

I see no reason to believe he has a glorified body, but I do believe he is alive now.

It seems that what happened to Elijah is easier to see in scripture than what happened to Enoch. There are definately scriptures that show that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram around 7 years after he was taken up in a whirlwind into heaven. There are also other parts of that account that seem to imply that people knew that the Lord could take him from one place on the earth to another supernaturally.

I'd like to see the argument for the position of Elijah writing a letter seven years later based on a biblical chronology.







I don't know how many people there will be but scripture does say that we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.

It does, and the relevancy of that is?







Please show me the scripture where it exists.

Other than what I said above, Jesus with the Sadducees. He is not the God of the dead but of the living.







But there is one thing that it does say and that is ALL the days of Enoch were 365 years. It seems it could imply that 365 years was the sum total of all his days.

On Earth. Yes.



Amen. I have believed that Enoch was translated for a long time until I saw this scripture in John 3:13. That is the major thing I am having trouble with. It seems everyone doesn't really know how to legitimately deal with what Jesus said there. It seems to be an addition to scripture to say that an 'intermediate place' is the answer for it. Maybe I am all wet and there is a place such as that, but I havn't seen any thing in scripture to uphold it. The contradiction still seems to be there. I have read many people's comments on John 3:13 and none of them seem to be able to completely harmonize what Paul said with what Jesus said. I am not saying that you are wrong or right, I just don't know.

For the intermediate state, I would still recommend the work of Habermas and Moreland. For the exegetical issues, JPHolding's website of tektonics has a good article on John 3:13.

Hope this helps!