===== Question for the Islamophobes =====

[Proud_Syrian]

Dear ISLAMOPHOBES: if Islam was bad why then all these western whites convert to Islam every year ???

A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousands, Drawn Before and After Attacks
By JODI WILGOREN
Source: The New York Times : October 22, 2001, Monday .

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/22/national/22CONV.html

From “Islam & America” to “Islam in America:

http://www.pakistanlink.com/communi.../Feb/08/07.html

Islam increases at 17,809 per day, 742 per hour, 12 per minute (three times as fast as Great Commission Christians and only slightly slower than all Christianity as a whole: ( christain resources)

http://www.usprayercenter.org/missionary.html

Understanding The Truth About America's Fastest Growing Religion:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Orchard/1256/is.html

And even the JEWS are converting to Islam:

http://www.jewstoislam.com

A matter of faith: Islam is fastest-growing religion in U.S:

http://classic.sacbee.com/news/news...1_20010701.html

Islam is currently the fasting growing religion in America whose adherents hail from every race and ethnicity.:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm...in_the_us/33392

Why are Westerners converting?

http://cbn.org/SpiritualLife/unders...sp?option=print

Even CHRISTIAN messionaries are converting to ISLAM:

http://www.geocities.com/ultimatetruth1/convetlists.htm

How Islam liberated Africa ?

http://www.culturalorientation.net/bantu/sbrelig.html

Islam is spreaidng in Latin America:

http://www.latinmuslims.com/history.html

http://wais.stanford.edu/latinamer_...xandla7102.html

THE NEW YORK TIMES
Ranks Of Latinos Turning To Islam Are Increasing
By DANIEL J. WAKIN

http://www.puertorico-herald.org/is...sIslam-en.shtml

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

"Already more than a billion-people strong, Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion." ABCNEWS, Abcnews.com

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country." NEWSDAY, March7,1989, p.4

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States..." NEW YORK TIMES, Feb 21, 1989, p.1

"Moslems are the world's fastest-growing group..." USA TODAY, The population referance bureau, Feb. 17, 1989, p.4A

"Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities." Encyclopedia Britannica

"There are more Muslims in North America then Jews Now." Dan Rathers, CBSNEWS

"Islam is the fastest growing religion in North America." TIMES MAGAZINE

"Islam continues to grow in America, and no one can doubt that!" CNN, December 15, 1995

"The religion of Islam is growing faster than any other religion in the world." MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES

"Five to 6 million strong, Muslims in America already outnumber Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Mormons, and they are more numerous than Quakers, Unitarians, Seventh-day Adventists, Mennonites, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Scientists, combined. Many demographers say Islam has overtaken Judaism as the country's second-most commonly practiced religion; others say it is in the passing lane." JOHAN BLANK, USNEWS (7/20/98)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/980720/20isla.htm

"In fact, religion experts say Islam is the second-largest religion in the United States... Islam has 5 million to 6 million members, followed by Judaism, with approximately 4.5 million..... And Islam is believed to be fastest-growing religion in the country, with half its expansion coming from new immigrants and the other half from conversions." By ELSA C. ARNETT, Knight-Ridder News Service


"The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he? "
Lamartine, Historie de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-2727

"How, for instance, can any other appeal stand against that of the Moslem who, in approaching the pagan, says to him, however obscure or degraded he may be 'Embrace the faith, and you are at once equal and a brother.' Islam knows no color line." (S. S. Leeder, VEILED MYSTERIES OF EGYPT)

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may
be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and
secular level." Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY,
New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.

"Everything made so much sense. This is the beauty of the Qur'an; it asks you to reflect and reason....When I read the Qur'an further, it talked about prayer, kindness and charity. I was not a Muslim yet, but I felt the only answer for me was the Qur'an and God had sent it to me." Cat Stevens (YusufIslam), former British pop star.

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated." De Lacy O'Leary, ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8.

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." George Bernard Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol. 1, No. 81936.

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." Bosworth Smith, MOHAMMAD AND MOHAMMADANISM, London, 1874, p. 92.

http://www.alhewar.com/nyt_islam_attracts.htm

Finally to all of those who say Islam spread by the sword, here is the facts:

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/isla...vert/sword1.htm

[Exmo-Robertson]

"if Islam was bad why then all these western whites convert to Islam every year ???"

Is this suppose to prove that Islam is the true religion of God? Mormons claim the same thing all the time. It only proves that people are joining, it makes no statement concerning truth.

[Solly]

I agree with Exmo.
Billions of people frequent McDonalds (not me). That doesn't make their products the best in the world, merely convenient (I prefer to use the independant; a longer wait, but better food).
Does the quantity of people using drugs mean drugs are good?
Does the amount of time people spend in front of the TV make TV good?
Does the success of the US attack on Iraq make the US good?
Islam, to my knowledge, does not pl;ace upon its followers the kind of restraints, and self awareness that Christianity does. Islam talks of submission; Christ spoke of taking up our cross and dying daily. Which do you think people will do, given the choice?

Secondly; cultural factors.

Christianity is numerically in the decline in the West (but not in Africa or Latin America, or China for instance), after two centuries of assault from intellectuals, philosophers, artists, writers, the media, and competing organisations like the Socialists. It has no street cred, because of a determined policy of distortion. Whereas Islam is in vogue, in the news - in the third world as a protest vote; in the west as an option in the way New Age used to be, since it is presenting itself as a "natural, eco and family friendly" religion. However, once Islam has subjected itself to the searching self- and external criticism of its truth claims that Christianity has, and is still found to be growing - as Christianity is still doing, then you can make claims based on numbers.

And as far as influence is concerned; the fact that you are speaking English is a testimony to the influence of Christ on the North Western peninsula and Islands of Europe, and the English Bible said people took with them around the globe.

slly5

[Dr T]

Today @ 08:38 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155081#post155081)
Proud_Syrian:


"Five to 6 million strong, Muslims in America already outnumber Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Mormons, and they are more numerous than Quakers, Unitarians, Seventh-day Adventists, Mennonites, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Christian Scientists, combined. Many demographers say Islam has overtaken Judaism as the country's second-most commonly practiced religion; others say it is in the passing lane." JOHAN BLANK, USNEWS (7/20/98)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/980720/20isla.htm

"The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he? "
Lamartine, Historie de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-2727

"How, for instance, can any other appeal stand against that of the Moslem who, in approaching the pagan, says to him, however obscure or degraded he may be 'Embrace the faith, and you are at once equal and a brother.' Islam knows no color line." (S. S. Leeder, VEILED MYSTERIES OF EGYPT)

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may
be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and
secular level." Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY,
New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.

"Everything made so much sense. This is the beauty of the Qur'an; it asks you to reflect and reason....When I read the Qur'an further, it talked about prayer, kindness and charity. I was not a Muslim yet, but I felt the only answer for me was the Qur'an and God had sent it to me." Cat Stevens (YusufIslam), former British pop star.

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated." De Lacy O'Leary, ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8.

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." George Bernard Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol. 1, No. 81936.

"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." Bosworth Smith, MOHAMMAD AND MOHAMMADANISM, London, 1874, p. 92.


I tried to follow most of the links, but very few worked. the few that did went to Muslim sites, with the exception of the NY times.

I do have a few points to make on the above.

1) Tha main reason Islam is growing so fast is the extreme population growth in the countries where Islam is dominant. For example 60% population in Iran is below the age of 30. These countries are becoming poorer as we speak and are way over populated already.

2) More Muslims than Jews in the USA, I can see two reasons for this, first and foremost Juadism doesn't seek converts. Secondly there aren't a vast number of them trying to escape to a better live in the west from the Islamic world.

3) Islam liberated Africa? Given that Mohammed was a slave owner and that the Koran santifies the owning of slaves, and that the open slave trade continued in the Islamic world well after it was stopped in the West, and there is a lot of evidence to say that it is coming back into the Islamic world (assuming it ever went completly) I don't understand this comment.

4) Islam not spread by the sword, go read your history books, it was being spread by the sword until it was stopped in the 1600s, and it is starting up again. Look at the world, where ever Islam is, war follows, regardless of who their neighbours are.

5)Mohammed acheived nothing until he gained an armed following at Medina, afer which he waged war on Mecca, and then on the other tribes. War was a way of life for him, he commanded raids and battles, he sent out assasins, had POWs mass executed. He was a man of war, as is his religion.

6) When I read the Koran it talked of killing people, and forcing people into a second class role (if they wished not to be killed).
There were some 'nice' things in there. It was like it had a nice outer wrapper, but buried deep inside it was a darkness. A nice outside to lure people in, but then a darkside to keep them trapped. Mohammed in the end had to say that anyone leaving Islam had to be killed, this despite saying there was freedom of choice in religion.

Just how weak is a religion if it has to kill people to stop them converting from it?

If you wish to see what Mohammed was really like, and what Islam would mean for the West I suggest that you go to the Answering Islam site. It is one of the featured ministries on this site at the moment.

[Solly]

Hello Green World

[Barron]

Today @ 12:38 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155081#post155081)
Proud_Syrian:

Dear ISLAMOPHOBES: if Islam was bad why then all these western whites convert to Islam every year ???

Because like all the great religions Islam offers people richly religious experience and deep personal meaning?

Barron

[The Laughing Man]

Uh... "Islamophobes?"

I bet you're not a "Christianophobe," though, right?

[seer]

Islam sounds like it just might be the false world religion of the Book of Revelation. And Mohammed it's false prophet. Either way it is a false religion that has doomed millions and millions. May Jesus Christ, the Divine Son of God, have mercy on their souls...

[FirstSunday33ad]

Of course it helps that in the West you are free to believe whatever you want but in the Middle East converting to Christianity will get you ostrasized, fired, evicted or even killed.

[seer]

Of course it helps that in the West you are free to believe whatever you want but in the Middle East converting to Christianity will get you ostrasized, fired, evicted or even killed.

Yeah, try preaching the Gospel in Iran.

[The Laughing Man]

Today @ 02:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=155480#post155480)
FirstSunday33ad:

Of course it helps that in the West you are free to believe whatever you want but in the Middle East converting to Christianity will get you ostrasized, fired, evicted or even killed.

And those are the better things that can happen to you! :eek:

[Exmo-Robertson]

Here is just one reason: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/18/freedom.report/index.html

Survey: Freedom gap between Muslim, non-Muslim world
December 18, 2001 Posted: 12:21 PM EST (1721 GMT)


NEW YORK (CNN) -- There is a "dramatic gap" in the level of freedom between Islamic nations, particularly in the Arab world, and other countries, according to an annual study of world freedom released Tuesday.

"Islamic terrorism and the popularity of extremist ideas among segments of the international Muslim community posed a serious threat to the spread of political freedom in the Islamic world," said The Freedom House, which rated 192 countries and 17 territories.

Freedom House was founded nearly 60 years ago by Eleanor Roosevelt, Wendell Willkie, and other Americans concerned about peace and democracy. It is nonprofit and nonpartisan.

Among countries where there is an Islamic majority, only one nation is ranked as free -- the African nation of Mali. Eighteen are rated partly free and 28 are not free. In contrast, among the non-Islamic countries, 85 are free, 40 are partly free and 20 are not free.

The gap between the non-Islamic and the Islamic world has widened, The Freedom House said.

"While the countries of Latin America, Africa, East-Central Europe, and South and East Asia experienced significant gains for democracy and freedom over the last 20 years, the countries of the Islamic world experienced an equally significant increase in repressive regimes," the report said.

Developing democracy
On the other hand, the report notes the existence of democratic movements in the non-Arabic Islamic world.

"Democratic politics are now found in Albania, Bangladesh, Djibouti, the Gambia, Indonesia, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone and Turkey. Notably, none of these Islamic democracies has a majority Arab population, and all are found in the Islamic periphery in South and East Asia, on the border of Europe and the Caucasus and in Northern and Central Africa," said the report. It also noted inroads, "though halting and inconsistent" toward democratic reform in several Arab nations.

The survey says factors contributing to the weakness of democracy and freedom in parts of the Muslim world include corruption, cronyism and "statist economies that have been unaffected by the market reforms that have swept the rest of the world."

Other factors leading to repression in the Muslim world include an interpretation of Islam that makes women second-class citizens, the Islamic tradition of merging religion and state, and the "corrosive power of oil and natural gas."

In all, the survey lists 86 free countries, 58 partly free countries and 48 not free countries around the globe.

The worst-rated countries are Afghanistan, Burma (Myanmar), Cuba, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria and Turkmenistan, seven of which are Muslim countries. The two worst-rated disputed territories are Chechnya in Russia and Tibet in China.

'Not free'
Countries with substantial setbacks in freedom are Argentina, Belize, Benin, the Central African Republic, Egypt, Eritrea, Haiti, Jamaica, Jordan, Liberia, Macedonia, Malawi, Morocco, Nigeria, Trinidad and Tobago, Yemen, and Zimbabwe, the survey said.

Israel is the only nation ranked free in the Middle East. However, Israeli-administered territories are ranked not free. The lands administered by the Palestinian Authority also are ranked not free.

Those countries making advances include Peru, which entered the ranks of free countries, and Mauritania, which improved from not free to partly free. Other improvements were found in Albania, Bahrain, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Cameroon, Republic of Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Croatia, East Timor, Equatorial Guinea, Fiji, Grenada, and Yugoslavia.

The survey examined a country's record in two areas: political rights and civil liberties.

"A country grants its citizens political rights when it permits them to form political parties that represent a significant range of voter choice and whose leaders can openly compete for and be elected to positions of power in government.

"A country upholds its citizens' civil liberties when it respects and protects their religious, ethnic, economic, linguistic, and other rights, including gender and family rights, personal freedoms, and freedoms of the press, belief, and association," Freedom House said.

Dana:
Islam hates competition and with not tolerate thought that is outside of the Quran. The more Islam invades American the more we'll see the loss of our freedoms. Islam is slavery, Islam is bondage. Islam is Nazism with a faith. Islam on one side, Mormonism on the other. God help us all.

Excuse me while I go read my copy of "Satanic Verses." I have to finish it while I still have the freedom to do so.

[Bill the Cat]

I heard today that the Koran is not available in any language except arabic in the Arab world... Anyone heard of this??

All Arabs do not speak arabic do they??

[Thomas2003]

Dear Sir,

In answer to your question, I beleive western people are converting to Islam because they generally hate God and love death, as the Scripture teaches.

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

At the beginning of the 20th Century Christianity as a whole embraced liberal theology, since then the results have been dramatic in an religious and societal apostasy, especially in America. I believe this has resulted in the present spiritual condition of many.

As a result Islam offers an absolute but premised in the hatred and love affair with death that they already hold because of their apostasy. They embrace Islam because it is a historic religion that represents their spiritual ideology - they find identity there.

It allows them and premises their hatred of Christ and all thing Christians and give religious license for them to embrace their murderous desires.

Cordially,


Thomas

[Dee Dee Warren]

Proud Syrian, if your disregard for the rules here is an example of proper Islamic behaviour, then I am not interested. Since you have violated the rules several times about arguing by weblink and not citing original sources, you are placed in moderation status. This means your posts will not see the board until approved by a moderator. If they contain the same violations they will be deleted.

[Jin-Roh]

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

"Already more than a billion-people strong, Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion." ABCNEWS, Abcnews.com

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country." NEWSDAY, March7,1989, p.4

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States..." NEW YORK TIMES, Feb 21, 1989, p.1

"Moslems are the world's fastest-growing group..." USA TODAY, The population referance bureau, Feb. 17, 1989, p.4A

"Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities." Encyclopedia Britannica

"There are more Muslims in North America then Jews Now." Dan Rathers, CBSNEWS

"Islam is the fastest growing religion in North America." TIMES MAGAZINE

"Islam continues to grow in America, and no one can doubt that!" CNN, December 15, 1995

"The religion of Islam is growing faster than any other religion in the world." MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES

It sounds as if you are attempting to "market" your religion as if someone was trying to sell me some kind of miracle product in an infomercail.

"Try Dr. Muslim's weight program! Millions of satisfied customers!"

The amount of adherents doesn't make their belief true.

Not that others here haven't brought up that same point though.
:highfive:

[Jezz]

Bill the Cat:
I heard today that the Koran is not available in any language except arabic in the Arab world... Anyone heard of this??

All Arabs do not speak arabic do they??
Actually, all Arabs do speak Arabic, pretty much. However, there are a few different spoken dialects - for example, Levantine and Gulf Arabic. Some of the dialects are as different as (for example) Spanish and Portuguese.

Note, however, that I said there are different spoken dialects. There is only one written dialect, and that's Modern Standard Arabic (MSA). Pretty much any two Arabs who know some spoken dialect of Arabic will be able to communicate with each other using MSA. TV and radio in the Arab world use this standard, as does all written material.

The Qu'ran is actually written in "Classical Arabic", which is basically archaic MSA (Arabic from the time of Mohammed). So for an Arab to read it is like us reading a book in Middle English - the grammar is mostly the same, but vocabulary is very different.

Have a look at http://www.ethnologue.com for futher info on which countries speak which languages. [/QUOTE]

[kiwimac]

Oh dear, What did Proud Syrian do? Disagree that Christianity is the neatest thing since sliced bread?

Kiwimac

[Bib Lit Major]

Today @ 02:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=157798#post157798)
kiwimac:

Oh dear, What did Proud Syrian do? Disagree that Christianity is the neatest thing since sliced bread?

Kiwimac

Are you referring to the moderator action (if so it should be put in the locker room), or to something else?

[BeHereNow]

I've only seen 2 posts by Angry Syrian so far, but I'm already starting to notice a trend--he doesn't reply. He must go around to different forums and just post the same stuff over and over agani to try to get converts. No use even responding to him.

[Solly]

Moderator input
You are right BeHereNow.

I saw all this stuff and the other material in other threads, plus much more, posted at at least two other sites just over 6 months ago. He was banned from those sites for using these tactics.
Proud syrian aka Green World is just a hit and run poster who thinks cut and paste theology will convince us. Sadly, he is the unacceptable face of Islamic apologetics - I hope we get some Muslims in the same breed as we have in Still Small voice, an Orthodox Jewish member

[ResidentRedneck]

I also find it amusing that while the Bible has been translated into literally hundreds of languages, the Q'uaran is only seen as inspired when read in it's original Arabic. So an English translation somehow "desacralizes" the book. And the Q'uaran is not one of those books that one could read with a minimal understanding of the Arabic language. One must completely know the intricacies of the language in order to understand the text. Now it seems to me, that if I were in charge of writing the "Book of God", I would write it in a language that was plain and simple. I would make it as easy to understand as possible. So why are people converting to Islam? Well...most of the reasons have been covered. Death for not converting, persecution and possibly death for leaving...gee...it would take a person of strong moral character and personal conviction to NOT take the easy way out.

On a side note...I just love how ProudSyrian keeps up on his threads? :troll:

Matt

[chsalvia]

When I read the Koran it talked of killing people, and forcing people into a second class role (if they wished not to be killed).
There were some 'nice' things in there. It was like it had a nice outer wrapper, but buried deep inside it was a darkness. A nice outside to lure people in, but then a darkside to keep them trapped. Mohammed in the end had to say that anyone leaving Islam had to be killed, this despite saying there was freedom of choice in religion.

To be fair, the same could be said of the Bible. Despite the general "love thy neighbor" message which is the overall theme of the Law, there is a "darkside" to the Old Testament. There was much bloodshed involved in the Hebrew conquest of Canaan. And Christianity certainly does not give one any real freedom of choice in religion, but insists that all who do not come to Christ will not have life, but rather will be tormented for eternity.


Just how weak is a religion if it has to kill people to stop them converting from it?

Again, the same could be said about the Old Testament. The Midianites were killed off for fear that the Israelites might adopt pagan practices.

Finally, the Koran does not promote the outright killing of unbelievers. It promotes holy war in defense of the faith.

Sura 2:190-191 - And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the unconditional extermination of certain populations, for fear that they might corrupt the Hebrew religion. In other words, holy war in defense of the faith.

You also say that Muhammed ordered that anyone apostasizing from Islam had to be killed. Perhaps you refer to this verse:

Surah 4:88-89 - "What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

This seems to be saying that any apostates who turn back to cause trouble for believers must be killed. This is certainly very harsh, but again, no harsher than the Deuteronomic regulations for holy war in the Old Testament. There, the Jews are instructed to exterminate the inhabitants of any city that does not willingly submit to slavery. Similarly, the penalty for apostasy in the Old Testament is death.

It seems as though all of your objections to Islam here, (like many Christian objections to Islam), can be paralleled in the Bible. And furthermore, they are mostly "arguments by outrage." As I have tried to demonstrate in this thread here, http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14468, this sort of thing is circular, since the same "outrage" could be directed towards the Bible.

[Dr T]

12-26-2003 @ 09:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=355422#post355422)
chsalvia:



To be fair, the same could be said of the Bible. Despite the general "love thy neighbor" message which is the overall theme of the Law, there is a "darkside" to the Old Testament. There was much bloodshed involved in the Hebrew conquest of Canaan. And Christianity certainly does not give one any real freedom of choice in religion, but insists that all who do not come to Christ will not have life, but rather will be tormented for eternity.



Again, the same could be said about the Old Testament. The Midianites were killed off for fear that the Israelites might adopt pagan practices.

Finally, the Koran does not promote the outright killing of unbelievers. It promotes holy war in defense of the faith.

Sura 2:190-191 - And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the unconditional extermination of certain populations, for fear that they might corrupt the Hebrew religion. In other words, holy war in defense of the faith.

You also say that Muhammed ordered that anyone apostasizing from Islam had to be killed. Perhaps you refer to this verse:

Surah 4:88-89 - "What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

This seems to be saying that any apostates who turn back to cause trouble for believers must be killed. This is certainly very harsh, but again, no harsher than the Deuteronomic regulations for holy war in the Old Testament. There, the Jews are instructed to exterminate the inhabitants of any city that does not willingly submit to slavery. Similarly, the penalty for apostasy in the Old Testament is death.

It seems as though all of your objections to Islam here, (like many Christian objections to Islam), can be paralleled in the Bible. And furthermore, they are mostly "arguments by outrage." As I have tried to demonstrate in this thread here, http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14468, this sort of thing is circular, since the same "outrage" could be directed towards the Bible.

The main difference is that today, not 3,000 years ago (and this is just one example) it is the law in Saudi Arabia to kill anyone who converts from Islam to anything else. Today, here and now. That is one major difference.

Secondly the verses in the Bible, whatever you think about them, applied to a particular situation, where as the verses from the Koran are very clear and apply at all times from now until the end of time. The Koran is very clear there can be no changes to it at all, Mohammed was the final prophet no further relavations can ever be given.

Added in an edit.

If I get time I will dig out how the verse on killing Apostates came about, my recollection is as follows:

As you may know there is a verse in the Koran saying that everyone is free to choose their religion.

There were many Christians and Jews, as well as Pagans living in the Arabian penisula at that time.

Some Christians decided that Mohammed was indeed a prophet and became Muslims, however after a time they realised that he was a false prophet so decided to stop being Muslims. It was when this happened that the verse on killing apostates was given by Mohammed, but he didn't restrict it to just that time and place, so it now applies to every place and all time, and is part of Islamic law.

Perhaps you also understand why we have a New Testament as well.

[chsalvia]

The main difference is that today, not 3,000 years ago (and this is just one example) it is the law in Saudi Arabia to kill anyone who converts from Islam to anything else. Today, here and now. That is one major difference.

That seems to be more of a complaint against the current Saudi regime than against Islam in general. Certainly, 8th century Baghdad was one of the most open and enlightened periods of history. And of course, in Medieval Spain, converts from orthodox Christianity would most likely to be sought out and killed, exiled, or forced to return to orthodoxy under pain of death or torture.

So, as you can see, both Islam and Christianity have their bad times and their good times.


Secondly the verses in the Bible, whatever you think about them, applied to a particular situation, where as the verses from the Koran are very clear and apply at all times from now until the end of time. The Koran is very clear there can be no changes to it at all, Mohammed was the final prophet no further relavations can ever be given.

So you're saying that the Old Testament is superior to the Q'ran in that mass killings carried out by order of Yahweh were only directed against the Canaanite/Amorite population of Palestine, whereas the Koranic instruction to defend the faith through holy war applies forever.

This doesn't really seem like that great of a difference. But anyway, the Old Testament commands, as a perpetual statute, the execution of anyone who tries to promote other religious beliefs.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 - "If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, whether near you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and never again do any such wickedness as this among you."

Of course, in a way, the whole thing is circular because if Islam is the true religion, then obviously holy war against unbelievers is just. And of course, if Christianity is the true religion, then the destruction of the Canaanites was just.

But there is nothing particularly "dark" about the Koran, over and above the Old Testament.

[Dr T]

Today @ 02:21 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=358941#post358941)
chsalvia:



That seems to be more of a complaint against the current Saudi regime than against Islam in general. Certainly, 8th century Baghdad was one of the most open and enlightened periods of history. And of course, in Medieval Spain, converts from orthodox Christianity would most likely to be sought out and killed, exiled, or forced to return to orthodoxy under pain of death or torture.

So, as you can see, both Islam and Christianity have their bad times and their good times.



So you're saying that the Old Testament is superior to the Q'ran in that mass killings carried out by order of Yahweh were only directed against the Canaanite/Amorite population of Palestine, whereas the Koranic instruction to defend the faith through holy war applies forever.

This doesn't really seem like that great of a difference. But anyway, the Old Testament commands, as a perpetual statute, the execution of anyone who tries to promote other religious beliefs.

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 - "If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, whether near you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and never again do any such wickedness as this among you."

Of course, in a way, the whole thing is circular because if Islam is the true religion, then obviously holy war against unbelievers is just. And of course, if Christianity is the true religion, then the destruction of the Canaanites was just.

But there is nothing particularly "dark" about the Koran, over and above the Old Testament.

It isn't a point against Saudi Arabia as it is part of the Sharia or Islamic law, I just used Saudi as an example of a state that has implemented Islamic law and kills people today on the basis of the verses in the Koran.

I clearly didn't make my point very well, I was trying to avoid discussing individual verses and how they were applied at the time. I was trying to make the general point that whatever you make of those verses no one is being killed today as a result of them.

I also don't believe that those verses have anything to do with Christainity, which is why Jesus gave us a new testament. I accept that there are many view points on this.

I would be interested in seeing some links backing up your statements on Baghdad, I'm not sure that it applies to the natives of the place or in general to non Muslims.

A better example would be the Catars, a group who believed in getting back to a very simple early church, exterminated in their millions by the Roman Catholic church.

As to the darkness of the Koran, I think it is show more clearly in the state of the world. Wherever Islam goes war follows.

Think of Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, Paksitan, Indonesia and Algeria as a starter.

Even in Malaysia there have been apartheid style laws in favour of muslims since the 1970s. As a result they are looking at bringing in new laws to ease racial tensions, and these are likely to make matters far worse.

Slavery is coming back (assuming it ever went away) in several countries, Sudan, Niger and Maurentania come to mind.

This can't all be a coincidence, particlularly as Islam doesn't allow for a separation between state and religion.

[IslamicGodzilla]

Nobody has addressed the question about why some convert from other religions to Islam.

I wold be interested to know if there are some general observations that can be made.

Not condescending crap, mind you - I mean serious inquiry. I realize the original poster is a hit and run serial poster. But I am curious about this...

[Andy Bannister]

Hi all,

I believe "Proud Syrian" in his fit of copying and pasting URLs failed to take into account the variegated nature of "Islam" worldwide. Some questions I would wish to ask him would include:

(a) Does he include in his "conversion" statistics those Westerners who "convert" to a very mystical-Sufi-esque form of Islam that has closer affinities in many places with Buddhism than with "mainstream" Islam? If so, you will end up watering down the term "Islam" to denote nothing meaningful whatsoever. For example, Dr. Tim Winter, a Western convert here in the UK and a lecturer at Cambridge University, has effectively argued that the hadith, sunna and shar'ia are entirely outmoded and need replacing.

(b) In his talk of the size of Islam worldwide, has he factored in the fact that many so-called "Muslim countries" have a large number of extremely nominal Muslims who are "Muslim" in name only. For example, it came out in a recent survey here in the UK that only 60% of the Muslim community (once children are discounted) actually attend mosque.

(c) There is the thorny issue of "Folk Islam". In short, one can almost draw a direct correllation between the distance from Mecca and the number of magical and animistic practices that are often imported into "Islam". Having visited Morocco several times, for example, I am always surprised by the prevalence of the "Evil Eye" and the "Hand of Fatima" --- semi-magical symbols that throw into question how "Islamic" a given region actually is. Does "Proud Syrian" include all these practices in his "Islam" count?

(d) Fourthly, "Proud Syrian" shoots himself in the foot. If he wishes to claim that Islam is a religion of peace then, presumably, Muslims who claim otherwise are in his eyes not real Muslims. Now surveys in the UK by the Muslim community itself (e.g. in the magazine "Q News") report that about 15% of the Muslim community would label themselves "radical". If these figures are repeated worldwide, then on "Proud Syrian"'s own criteria the size of the Muslim community needs to be reduced by some 15%.

Some final thoughts on the "fastest growing" claim:

* One needs to factor in birth-rate.

* One needs to account for conversion the other way (whether to Christianity or secular nominalism)

* One needs to deal with competing claims (e.g. one recent survey I believe showed that Jehovah's Witnesses were the fastest growing sect worldwide)

* As has been pointed out, speed of growth is not a test of veracity.

Warm regards,

Andy

[Captain Ochre]

"if Islam was bad why then all these western whites convert to Islam every year ???"

Is this suppose to prove that Islam is the true religion of God? Mormons claim the same thing all the time. It only proves that people are joining, it makes no statement concerning truth.

Exactly right.
The argument is the fallacy of the appeal to popularity, more or less.
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/f/fallacies.htm#Appeal%20to%20the%20Masses

It's a good question as to why people convert to Islam, but it may be no more illuminating concerning the goodness of Islam than discovering why it is that so many people steal (if stealing is so bad, then why do so many people steal?).

One immediate consideration is the fact that the majority of Islamic teaching--at least in the US (in my experience) is not of a militant or violent variety.
The question itself is interesting, but it doesn't say anything significant about whether Islam is good or bad.

[Anthony Wales]

1) What is so special about WHITES and WESTERNERS that the fact that some of them convert to Islam is used as an argument for the 'truth' and 'goodness' of Islam? I have heard this argument before, but I am yet to hear Muslims present the conversion of BLACKS and EASTERNERS as an argument for Islam?

2) Many white and western people have fallen into / become committed to things like pornography, atheism, abortion, sex outside of marriage, drugs, violence, Buddhism, the New Age, contraception, and euthanasia. Does this mean that these things are good? Of course not, so neither does the conversion of some white and western people to Islam prove that Islam is good.

3) I propose the following as a possible explanation for why numerous white and western people are converting to Islam. Modern western societies contain many bad things (some of which are listed above) and people are looking for answers and meaning. Christianity has been the traditional religion in the west, many people have had bad experiences with particular Christians, and Christianity is often misrepresented and attacked by segments of western society (notably the media). This turns many people away from Christianity and makes them look elsewhere for answers and purpose. Islam comes along as something new to many western people. It tells people what to think and do (right down to what to eat and wear) so they have the simplicity and ease of not having to use their minds and freedom (in the same way they would have to if they were Christians), and it has none of the more complex truths that exist in Christianity (like the Trinity and Incarnation). Muslims produce literature, websites and face to face discussions that present a false picture of Christianity (as something stupid and bad) and put this next to the best picture of Islam that they can develop (as something scientific, good and beneficial for women). All these converge and cause some white and western people to convert to Islam.

God bless,
Anthony.

[Anthony Wales]

Re the following statement:

"Christianity certainly does not give one any real freedom of choice in religion, but insists that all who do not come to Christ will not have life, but rather will be tormented for eternity."

Christianity gives everyone perfect freedom of choice in religion. Everyone is free to choose life with God or life without God, and God respects the chose each person makes. Life in the presence of God is heaven and life with the complete absence of God is hell. In fact, it is because people have real freedom of choice that hell is a possibility. If we were not created with free-will we could not truly love God and perfectly experience his love (heaven) and neither could we completely reject God and be cut off from his love (hell).

I think it is true to say that it is not possible for someone to choose to be completely without God forever and not experience hell. On the one hand, if God respects such a choice and lets people live it then they will experience hell because they have been cut off from everyone that human beings want. To be without God is to be totally without love, goodness, peace, happiness, truth, enjoyment etc.

On the other hand, if God makes such people choose him so that they will not suffer the experience of being without him, then they will likewise experience hell. God created human beings with freedom, which makes loving God and experiencing his love the greatest thing for us. But if God forces us to be with him, then he has destroyed our freedom and our ability to give and experience love. Having lost these essential parts of our nature we cease to be human beings and have been destroyed in some way, and I think this would also be hell. Also, this would involve God multilating/destroying some human beings for a good end, which is an unacceptable notion.

The existence of hell does influence some/many people to become and remain committed Christians. I don't think there is anything wrong if the notion of hell plays a part in bringing people to Christ and staying committed to Christ in times when their love may be weak. But the main reason why people are Christians is because they realise God loves them so much that he became Man, was crucified, died and rose again for them. Also, Christians should and do grow in their relationship with God in such a way that the fear of hell continually plays less of a role and the love of God continually becomes more important.

[apologetics]

Dear ISLAMOPHOBES: if Islam was bad why then all these western whites convert to Islam every year ???

Why is it that we are becoming a society that attaches a "phobia" to all things that differ in opinion from our own. This is ridiculous and obviously a poor debating tactic....

The logic behind the above is poor to say the least. It implies that behavior sets rights and wrongs. This is blatantly false. It is known that more and more people are experimenting with the "swinger" lifestyle each year. Does this make it "right?" More and more people get divorced each year, does this make divorce right? More people are incarcerated for violent crimes each year, does this make violent crime "right?"

The evidence does not point to the truth of Islam. Islam lacks the manuscript evidence enjoyed by Christianity. Islam lacks the voluminous archeological evidence enjoyed by Christianity. Islam lacks the predictive prophecy fulfillment enjoyed by Christianity. Islam lacks the evidence provided by the science of statistical probability enjoyed by Christianity.

Enough said.....

[geneticperfecti]

I agree with some posts here - just because masses of people flock to something does not make it the best out there.
Nonetheless, I think other suggestions made have been asnine.
Islam isnt any easier than christianity - I spent part of my life as a muslim, and part as a christian, and the muslim part was much harder, due to the multiple restrictions of so many aspects of life. It required more conviction than I had.
Mohamad could hardly be classified as a slave owner, since he was dirt poor until later on in life, and even then he freed slaves.
And it is very possible to convery to christianity in a muslim country without being hacked into a million pieces. I know I managed.
The only mentions of killing people in the Quran are almost entirely as acts of defence (read lines before and after before posting isolated lines to prove any point you may have).
Unfortunately, like many sites on the internet, answering islam has so much fictional information that its hardly credible for anyone with the slighest desire to hear anything but anti-islamic diatribe