The Effects of Undocumented Workers

[Rubia Warren]

Yeah this is about illegal immigration. But please, I don't wanna hear anything specifically about border security, speaking english, invasions, ripping the welfare system off or any links to www.fairus.org, and that type of stuff. There are plenty of threads about that. I also would appreciate from the other side, a little more than just a hand-wave. What I wanna talk about sorta goes along with some stuff I have learned about the economy (or am trying to learn) and am trying to figure all this stuff out. I am posting some random thoughts and questions in this OP so that maybe people who have more figured out than I can tell me if I am understanding correctly or set me in the right direction.

OKay, first is our labor standards. If we have labor laws and stuff, well, that affects the labor pool especially in terms of how much it will cost an employer to hire them, right? I mean, in terms of their pay, their work area safety, the equipment they use, if they get hurt on the job, etc. So even though the government regulates a lot of things, I see it as though it keeps everybody, for the most part, on the same page, keeping at least some sort of a standard-- even if the standard is bad, it's still a standard. Even though there are a lot of regulations, within that system, employers and employees can still be competitive, especially in terms of hiring and hirability. They just can't sink below a certain point, such as hiring an 8-year old instead of a grown man to run a big machine.

So we have a labor pool in this country. But with a flood of undocumented workers and a government that has been willing to look the other way regarding their entry and businesses who hire them, we have a large black market labor pool.

Incidently, I read an article, I can't remember where, the other day that commented on this, who made one point that, because of this black market labor pool, in those industries it has retarded invention and technological advancement. Because when labor becomes too expensive, the nature of capitalism causes capital owners to invest in and seek technological innovation to drive back down the costs of labor or production. Now when I say that it has been retarded, I don't think that means that they are light years behind, technologically (at least that is not what I gathered from the article), and I am not sure if that could be proven. But the point was that having such a large black market labor pool essentially causes a bit of laziness on the part of Business regarding invention. Maybe that is something that will not be crippling, but the point was that it has been retarded nonetheless.

It seems to me that 99% of all people whose lips say the words "illegal immigration" are not anti-immigration, many are simply anti-black-market-labor-pool. It seems that Business generally is pro-black-market-labor-pool. Perhaps we should change the words we use to reflect that. Perhaps people and businesses who defend the hiring of undocumented workers should just say, "America needs a big black market labor pool" instead of "America needs immigrants", because a regular immigrant is not necessarily included in the black market labor pool, only the undocumented are. America needing immigrants is a bit misleading.

Now, I don't really care if you give them amnesty, or guest worker programs, or whatever. That is not going to work for business, I think. If a large black market labor pool is what our economy needs, then it seems that all of those solutions undermine that. What will business do without the same black market labor pool? Isn't it their black-marketness what is so appealing? Isn't it their black-marketness why America needs them? If you remove or significantly reduce the black market, then they just move into the regular labor pool. So won't any type of program be hurtful to the overall economy?

Has having the black market labor pool to this degree caused Business to become a bit lazy in it's reliance on black market labor or could it?

Just wondering aloud.

[Ryokan]

Yeah this is about illegal immigration. But please, I don't wanna hear anything specifically about border security, speaking english, invasions, ripping the welfare system off or any links to www.fairus.org, and that type of stuff. There are plenty of threads about that. I also would appreciate from the other side, a little more than just a hand-wave. What I wanna talk about sorta goes along with some stuff I have learned about the economy (or am trying to learn) and am trying to figure all this stuff out. I am posting some random thoughts and questions in this OP so that maybe people who have more figured out than I can tell me if I am understanding correctly or set me in the right direction. I'll do my best. It is a big murky area, what you are asking. Economist don't always agree, and I don't even have my bachelor's yet. :eek:

OKay, first is our labor standards. If we have labor laws and stuff, well, that affects the labor pool especially in terms of how much it will cost an employer to hire them, right? I mean, in terms of their pay, their work area safety, the equipment they use, if they get hurt on the job, etc. So even though the government regulates a lot of things, I see it as though it keeps everybody, for the most part, on the same page, keeping at least some sort of a standard-- even if the standard is bad, it's still a standard. Even though there are a lot of regulations, within that system, employers and employees can still be competitive, especially in terms of hiring and hirability. They just can't sink below a certain point, such as hiring an 8-year old instead of a grown man to run a big machine. Okay.

So we have a labor pool in this country. But with a flood of undocumented workers and a government that has been willing to look the other way regarding their entry and businesses who hire them, we have a large black market labor pool. Kinda. There is a labor market. Part of that market is "black". But the market is pretty similiar for most industries.

Incidently, I read an article, I can't remember where, the other day that commented on this, who made one point that, because of this black market labor pool, in those industries it has retarded invention and technological advancement. Because when labor becomes too expensive, the nature of capitalism causes capital owners to invest in and seek technological innovation to drive back down the costs of labor or production. Now when I say that it has been retarded, I don't think that means that they are light years behind, technologically (at least that is not what I gathered from the article), and I am not sure if that could be proven. But the point was that having such a large black market labor pool essentially causes a bit of laziness on the part of Business regarding invention. Maybe that is something that will not be crippling, but the point was that it has been retarded nonetheless. This is a valid point. When cheap unskilled labor is available, in the US via immigration, their isn't the push of high wages to make companies replace people with machines. In Japan, robotics is much more prevelant for this reason. They are too xenophobic to import laborers, so they need to invest in more capital.

It seems to me that 99% of all people whose lips say the words "illegal immigration" are not anti-immigration, many are simply anti-black-market-labor-pool. It seems that Business generally is pro-black-market-labor-pool. Perhaps we should change the words we use to reflect that. Perhaps people and businesses who defend the hiring of undocumented workers should just say, "America needs a big black market labor pool" instead of "America needs immigrants", because a regular immigrant is not necessarily included in the black market labor pool, only the undocumented are. America needing immigrants is a bit misleading. Nah. I think you have it all wrong. America needs a larger, growing labor pool. Businss doesn't care if its legal or not. They just don't want to make risky and expensive capital investments. Small business especially, because it will push them out. Also, in the short run at the very least, consumers will pay higher prices. Average Americans either want to end immigration or have a lot more legal immigration. The people who favor black market immigration, in the vast majority, want it only vs. no expanded legal immigration.

Now, I don't really care if you give them amnesty, or guest worker programs, or whatever. That is not going to work for business, I think. If a large black market labor pool is what our economy needs, then it seems that all of those solutions undermine that. What will business do without the same black market labor pool? Isn't it their black-marketness what is so appealing? Isn't it their black-marketness why America needs them? If you remove or significantly reduce the black market, then they just move into the regular labor pool. So won't any type of program be hurtful to the overall economy?{/QUOTE] ITs not the black marketness, its Americas shortage of unskilled labor. Especially fluid unskilled labor. Their is plenty of it in west virginia, but if they won't move out of the mountains.....
[QUOTE]
Has having the black market labor pool to this degree caused Business to become a bit lazy in it's reliance on black market labor or could it?

Just wondering aloud.It defintiely reduces businesses drive to invest in capital. But so does any larger labor pool.

[Soundsurfr]

Yeah this is about illegal immigration. But please, I don't wanna hear anything specifically about border security, speaking english, invasions, ripping the welfare system off or any links to www.fairus.org (http://www.fairus.org/), and that type of stuff. There are plenty of threads about that. I also would appreciate from the other side, a little more than just a hand-wave. What I wanna talk about sorta goes along with some stuff I have learned about the economy (or am trying to learn) and am trying to figure all this stuff out. I am posting some random thoughts and questions in this OP so that maybe people who have more figured out than I can tell me if I am understanding correctly or set me in the right direction.

OKay, first is our labor standards. If we have labor laws and stuff, well, that affects the labor pool especially in terms of how much it will cost an employer to hire them, right? I mean, in terms of their pay, their work area safety, the equipment they use, if they get hurt on the job, etc. So even though the government regulates a lot of things, I see it as though it keeps everybody, for the most part, on the same page, keeping at least some sort of a standard-- even if the standard is bad, it's still a standard. Even though there are a lot of regulations, within that system, employers and employees can still be competitive, especially in terms of hiring and hirability. They just can't sink below a certain point, such as hiring an 8-year old instead of a grown man to run a big machine.

So we have a labor pool in this country. But with a flood of undocumented workers and a government that has been willing to look the other way regarding their entry and businesses who hire them, we have a large black market labor pool.

Incidently, I read an article, I can't remember where, the other day that commented on this, who made one point that, because of this black market labor pool, in those industries it has retarded invention and technological advancement. Because when labor becomes too expensive, the nature of capitalism causes capital owners to invest in and seek technological innovation to drive back down the costs of labor or production. Now when I say that it has been retarded, I don't think that means that they are light years behind, technologically (at least that is not what I gathered from the article), and I am not sure if that could be proven. But the point was that having such a large black market labor pool essentially causes a bit of laziness on the part of Business regarding invention. Maybe that is something that will not be crippling, but the point was that it has been retarded nonetheless.

It seems to me that 99% of all people whose lips say the words "illegal immigration" are not anti-immigration, many are simply anti-black-market-labor-pool. It seems that Business generally is pro-black-market-labor-pool. Perhaps we should change the words we use to reflect that. Perhaps people and businesses who defend the hiring of undocumented workers should just say, "America needs a big black market labor pool" instead of "America needs immigrants", because a regular immigrant is not necessarily included in the black market labor pool, only the undocumented are. America needing immigrants is a bit misleading.

Now, I don't really care if you give them amnesty, or guest worker programs, or whatever. That is not going to work for business, I think. If a large black market labor pool is what our economy needs, then it seems that all of those solutions undermine that. What will business do without the same black market labor pool? Isn't it their black-marketness what is so appealing? Isn't it their black-marketness why America needs them? If you remove or significantly reduce the black market, then they just move into the regular labor pool. So won't any type of program be hurtful to the overall economy?

Has having the black market labor pool to this degree caused Business to become a bit lazy in it's reliance on black market labor or could it?

Just wondering aloud.

I think you are correct in many respects here. I read Ryokan's comments and find them to be overgeneralized. There are many industries where the black market labor pool is not an option due either to union control or effective government regulation. However there are other industries (and the agriculture industry comes first to mind) where the black market labor pool you speak of is an integral part of the industry and the government is not policing it. (I suspect this is not by accident.)

In those areas where labor is tightly regulated, such as automotive and high-tech industrial, companies have been forced to either automate or move offshore for cheaper labor. Automation has its drawbacks - it's very capital intensive and not very flexible. Once you have an automation line for product A, and product A becomes obsolete or needs to be upgraded, it's not always so easy to adapt the automation line to produce product B. Or if product A is in low demand one week, and product B is in high demand, you can't easily redirect the automation to produce whatever needs to be produced that week. A human assembly line, on the other hand, can be manipulated at will to crank out whatever products need to be pushed at any given time, and new products are quickly and cheaply integrated into production.

In those areas where labor is not tightly regulated, we can bring the cheap labor in under the radar. This creates the situation we're in today with regard to illegal immigration, and this, in my opinion, is the source of the systemic problem. Go after the businesses that hire illegal immigrants and your illegal immigrant problem will control itself.

Nobody seems to want to address this side of the equation.

[Rubia Warren]

Nah. I think you have it all wrong. America needs a larger, growing labor pool. Businss doesn't care if its legal or not.
I dunno, Ryokan. I am not sure to the extent it has nationwide but there are some businesses and/or bosses who prefer hiring black market laborers specifically over regular ones, such as a Mexican having better favor than a Puerto Rican (with the latter it is clear that he is a citizen, with the former, it could fall either way).
I think it is probably specifically the black market aspect that is most appealing to businesses. An illegal alien is always guaranteed to be a black market laborer, a legal immigrant is not. A black market worker can be squeezed for more than a non, and for longer.
I don't think it is mostly a need for a growing larger labor pool (for what? I don't understand that part), but a utilization of a cheaper labor pool who is less-maintenance.
They just don't want to make risky and expensive capital investments.
But isn't that sort of the same thing as laziness? Isn't going with black market labor the easy way out?

I am paying black market labor to paint my house right now-- it's cheaper. In a sense, out of laziness. I think what I am calling laziness is natural for everybody.

Small business especially, because it will push them out. Also, in the short run at the very least, consumers will pay higher prices. Average Americans either want to end immigration or have a lot more legal immigration. The people who favor black market immigration, in the vast majority, want it only vs. no expanded legal immigration.
[QUOTE]
Who wants to end it all together, though?
It seems to me like Americans want to end the black market aspect of it (and all that other stuff I mentioned in the OP that I'm nauseated from hearing and talking about).
[quote] ITs not the black marketness, its Americas shortage of unskilled labor. Especially fluid unskilled labor. Their is plenty of it in west virginia, but if they won't move out of the mountains.....
Does America really have a shortage in unskilled labor?
Wouldn't more capital investment take care of that in the long run, since one worker running a machine can take the place of several workers?

It defintiely reduces businesses drive to invest in capital. But so does any larger labor pool.
Seriously though... the native (or legal resident) unskilled labor pool is really that small? I mean, Bill Gates and Oprah are on a kick about reducing high school dropout rates, they appear so alarmed about it.
Are you sure that it isn't necessarily that the labor pool is small, but that government has, over the decades, turned a blind eye to foreign black market labor-hiring and it was cheaper to utilize than the regular labor pool?

[Rubia Warren]

In those areas where labor is tightly regulated, such as automotive and high-tech industrial, companies have been forced to either automate or move offshore for cheaper labor. Automation has its drawbacks - it's very capital intensive and not very flexible. Once you have an automation line for product A, and product A becomes obsolete or needs to be upgraded, it's not always so easy to adapt the automation line to produce product B. Or if product A is in low demand one week, and product B is in high demand, you can't easily redirect the automation to produce whatever needs to be produced that week. A human assembly line, on the other hand, can be manipulated at will to crank out whatever products need to be pushed at any given time, and new products are quickly and cheaply integrated into production.
Okay that makes sense.
One of the things that the article I read focused on was agriculture. That the usage of black market laborers in agriculture has hindered more technological advancements/invention in that area. So, in the agricultural industry at least, do those same thing generally apply as in manufacturing, where a product is switched faster than crops?

In those areas where labor is not tightly regulated, we can bring the cheap labor in under the radar. This creates the situation we're in today with regard to illegal immigration, and this, in my opinion, is the source of the systemic problem. Go after the businesses that hire illegal immigrants and your illegal immigrant problem will control itself.
You do have a good point.
However, would some things have to change, regulation-wise, in order to keep manufacturers here? It seems like in local manufacturing areas, that tax abatements and special things are given by governments (including the blind-eye-turning to black market labor) in order to keep them from relocating. If the government goes after business for hiring foreign black market labor, doesn't it shoot itself in the foot because it chases away part of the taxpayer base?

Nobody seems to want to address this side of the equation.
Oh that is because politicians are only pandering for hispanic votes.

[Ryokan]

I think you are correct in many respects here. I read Ryokan's comments and find them to be overgeneralized. There are many industries where the black market labor pool is not an option due either to union control or effective government regulation. However there are other industries (and the agriculture industry comes first to mind) where the black market labor pool you speak of is an integral part of the industry and the government is not policing it. (I suspect this is not by accident.)

In those areas where labor is tightly regulated, such as automotive and high-tech industrial, companies have been forced to either automate or move offshore for cheaper labor. Automation has its drawbacks - it's very capital intensive and not very flexible. Once you have an automation line for product A, and product A becomes obsolete or needs to be upgraded, it's not always so easy to adapt the automation line to produce product B. Or if product A is in low demand one week, and product B is in high demand, you can't easily redirect the automation to produce whatever needs to be produced that week. A human assembly line, on the other hand, can be manipulated at will to crank out whatever products need to be pushed at any given time, and new products are quickly and cheaply integrated into production.

In those areas where labor is not tightly regulated, we can bring the cheap labor in under the radar. This creates the situation we're in today with regard to illegal immigration, and this, in my opinion, is the source of the systemic problem. Go after the businesses that hire illegal immigrants and your illegal immigrant problem will control itself.

Nobody seems to want to address this side of the equation.
What you are suggesting is true in a few select industries, Surfer, but in general, it is simply a desire for cheaper labor, not unregulated labor, that drives businesses support of immigration, legal or otherwise. I have no problem tightening the screws on crooked business, as long as we don't toss the baby with the bath water. Its not one or the other.

[Ryokan]

I'll respond later roobz.

[Soundsurfr]

Okay that makes sense.
One of the things that the article I read focused on was agriculture. That the usage of black market laborers in agriculture has hindered more technological advancements/invention in that area.

Probably true.

So, in the agricultural industry at least, do those same thing generally apply as in manufacturing, where a product is switched faster than crops?

Note sure. If I had to guess I'd say, yes but to a lesser extent. I don't think agriculturalists switch products as quickly or come out with new products as often as, say, appliance manufacturers.

You do have a good point.
However, would some things have to change, regulation-wise, in order to keep manufacturers here?

On a lot of items, much of the pressure to lower manufacturing costs seems to come from the big-box retailers - WalMart, Home Depot, Target, etc. If US manufacturers can't match their price requirement, they go offshore. That forces the US manufacturer to move operations offshore to compete. The only "regulation" I can think of to offset that would be for the US to impose tarriffs on imports, which is contrary to our stated "free trade" policy and which would likely cause some serious trade wars to ensue if we went that way.

It seems like in local manufacturing areas, that tax abatements and special things are given by governments (including the blind-eye-turning to black market labor) in order to keep them from relocating.

True, but in the case of agriculture, farms don't generally relocate.

If the government goes after business for hiring foreign black market labor, doesn't it shoot itself in the foot because it chases away part of the taxpayer base?

Not sure what you mean by that. The black market laborers are not paying taxes.

What I'm talking about here is what goes on down the road from where I live. Every morning, in front of the 7-11, 20-30 undocumented migrant workers (who live 20 to a house, by the way, in illegal rent conditions) line up and wait for any number of unmarked vans to pick them up and bring them out to the strawberry or grape or potato fields in the area where they pick produce all day for $20 a day. This is totally illegal and nobody does anything about it. In the meantime, the city is cracking down on the illegal housing people and throwing migrant worker families out in the street where they sleep under newspapers and defecate in parking lots. Somebody tell me why no attention is paid to the farm owners. Everyone knows who they are.