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Welcome to the Archeology forum. Were you out doing some gardening and dug up a relic from the distant past? would you like to know more about Ancient Egypt? Did you think Memphis was actually a city in Tennessee?
Well, for the answers to those and other burning questions you've found the right digs.
Our forum rules apply here too, if you haven't read them now is the time.
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Camels in Genesis
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Camels in Genesis
That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
I will say, however, that those crtitics who jump up and down and say "See, I told you the Bible is false" go too far.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
Even so AFAICT most scholars have for years considered the mention of camels as an anachronism so this hardly constitutes breaking news.
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Did they have pack saddles? If not, this is silly.
Saddlery develops rather late. There's a limit to what you can safely tie on an animal without a tree to help distribute it - and it's not necessarily a heavy load. Some scrawny nomad isn't going to weigh a camel down by much and they were moving, not trading. (Makes a big difference in how animals are laden - movers don't over burden animals as often because it's counter productive. Traders need to maximize loads.).
Also, Scripture refers to donkeys more than camels as pack animals (makes sense - cheaper to keep and easier to load) - so when Jacob sends his sons to Egypt it's with donkeys and they are going specifically to trade - the return trip should have been well laden. Camels used as light pack animals, riding animals or even draft animals wouldn't have the same skeletal signs as heavy pack animals.
Assuming the methodology is sound it only shows that camels might not have been heavy pack animals - doesn't tell us anything about whether or not they were domesticated at all."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostDid they have pack saddles? If not, this is silly.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostBetter to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
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Not silly. Even carrying small burdens will make a substantial difference in how the muscles and bones develop, just as even a mild relatively mild exercise regimen, maintained over several years, would make an observable difference in human skeletons."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostIs silly - they specified heavy loads.
That requires a different level of tech.
Both pack saddles and riding saddles can be constructed from materials that are unlikely to survive in archaeological digs. Indeed, even today, provided you eschew plastic, that's still not just possible, but quite likely.
Now, one potentially huge problem with the article: while this is the earliest they have discovered, what happens if there are more skeletons out there that have not been discovered? This is the biggest pitfall of such claims.
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This is relevant. N.B.
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" This entire process, it has been argued, took place without the benefit of camel transport, the camels making their appearance only at a much later date from parts unknown. But it has been demonstrated that the camel was already in use during the period in question and that its probable homeland was southern Arabia. It is much more reasonable, therefore, to assume that the camel was the main carrier on the incense route from the very beginning, or nearly so, and that the Semitic tribes of the north came to know the camel in this way in very small numbers. In other words, the presence of camels in the Abraham story can be defended and the story treated as primary evidence of camel use without disputing Albright's contention that camel-breeding nomads did not exist in Syria and northern Arabia at that time."-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
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Didn't get past the 'it's silly' bit, did you?
It really does take a different level of tech to use heavy packs - a tree, preferably. Egyptians having said tech (evidenced, per you, by the presense of camels showing signs of heavy load) doesn't equal the Israelites (Hebrews/early Patriarchs/however we're refering to them today) having the same tech (Egyptians guarded the chariot tech pretty closely - packing tech is also a tactical advantage so they probably weren't sharing a lot). Hence you can have two groups with the same animals domesticated, but entirely different patterns of use. So no, it doesn't prove no domestic camels, just no camels found that were heavy pack animals."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostThis is relevant. N.B.
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" This entire process, it has been argued, took place without the benefit of camel transport, the camels making their appearance only at a much later date from parts unknown. But it has been demonstrated that the camel was already in use during the period in question and that its probable homeland was southern Arabia. It is much more reasonable, therefore, to assume that the camel was the main carrier on the incense route from the very beginning, or nearly so, and that the Semitic tribes of the north came to know the camel in this way in very small numbers. In other words, the presence of camels in the Abraham story can be defended and the story treated as primary evidence of camel use without disputing Albright's contention that camel-breeding nomads did not exist in Syria and northern Arabia at that time."
People can come up with arguments to justify anything. Whether those arguments are sensible, logical, or remotely realistic is another matter. But this is yet another case where faith is impervious to evidence. If you are comfortable with that, then all is well. If you ever become uncomfortable with that, it is still quite feasible to discard literalism and yet retain your faith. Plenty of others have done so.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostDidn't get past the 'it's silly' bit, did you?
It really does take a different level of tech to use heavy packs - a tree, preferably. Egyptians having said tech (evidenced, per you, by the presense of camels showing signs of heavy load) doesn't equal the Israelites (Hebrews/early Patriarchs/however we're refering to them today) having the same tech (Egyptians guarded the chariot tech pretty closely - packing tech is also a tactical advantage so they probably weren't sharing a lot). Hence you can have two groups with the same animals domesticated, but entirely different patterns of use. So no, it doesn't prove no domestic camels, just no camels found that were heavy pack animals.
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You do realize that you're now making no sense at all, right?
The study doesn't support the 'the Bible got it wrong' thing - a point you were in partial agreement with. So why the tangetial and insulting 'well, y'all just gonna believe whatever you want to no matter what' when QW merely cites something that solves the purported problem? Who's really clinging to belief in that case?
I know enough about horses and saddlery - and their history - to know that if you don't have pack saddles you don't have the heaviest packs (not possible - this doesn't change for camels). Looking specifically for heavy loads makes sense from the perspective of being able to distinguish the animals - but none from the historical perspective because saddlery develops at very different paces (heck, the stirrup is one of the last things to develop!). No pack saddle = lighter loads - quite possibly too light to easily distinguish in a couple bones from a long dead animal. So, yeah, it tells us something about heavy packing - but doesn't tells us diddly about light usage.
QW brings in a completely different point (I sorta danced around it myself but he hits it directly) - they didn't have to have the same number of camels as another area more used to camel usage to still have domestic camels present and in use. A tiny sample wouldn't leave much of a historic footprint even if they did have the saddlery. Bones, like saddles, don't usually survive thousands of years to lend themselves to being analyzed, so fewer camels makes finding the few domestic, heavy pack camels (presuming they existed) less likely."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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