Unlimited Atonement?

[seer]

"God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."


"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."


"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."


It is clear that Christ made atonement for all men. Could John, (1 John 2:2) make it any more clear? Or Peter who says that the false teachers were brought by the Lord? And which human has not gone astray per Isaiah? No where does scripture say that Christ ONLY died for the elect. And no argument from scripture can prove so. The Calvinist must resort to human logic to even attempt to make a case, yet that logic is felled by Holy Writ. So we have two choices - bow to human reasoning or bow to Divine Revelation...


What say you?

For Futher Consideration:

http://www.epm.org/articles/atone.html

[Shazard]

What say you?


Firs I am not calvinist, but will answer the question.

So imagine that there is contest. Requirements to win is to perform some task with limited resources. And there is promise, each one who will win will gain ethernal life, and those who will not, ethernal death.

Now. What did Christ do, he won the prise for each living soul on planet. The prise pool is sufficient for all the population of the planet for all times.

But you know and Jesus knows that not everybody will believe that they have this prize allready guaranteed there for them to take by faith. So there will be some limited number of those who will believe and the number obviously will be less then there are prises reserved.

So now... if you look from humans standpoint, then you see that there is prise for you for your neighbour, relatives and even chinese you never met. Everybody has this guarantee. But if you look from perspective of God who knows who will ACTUALLY gain the prize, then you see some limited number of people.

So it is true to say, that there is limited number of people who will gain ethernal salvation, but exact knowledge about who and number of them is known olny to God. For us it is revealed to proclaim Gospel to all nations. You are not allowed to make speculations about things which God knows only about. God can speak about elected, but we are not allowed to base our actions against people on our opinion about who exactly is and who is not elected.
From our point of view, the set of all elect is not complete. From God's point of view it is allready known. God knows that only limited part of population will be saved and even he knows who exactly, but we don't. But Gods will is to save everybody. Not everything God knows is what he wishes.

[seer]

Firs I am not calvinist, but will answer the question.

So imagine that there is contest. Requirements to win is to perform some task with limited resources. And there is promise, each one who will win will gain ethernal life, and those who will not, ethernal death.

Now. What did Christ do, he won the prise for each living soul on planet. The prise pool is sufficient for all the population of the planet for all times.

But you know and Jesus knows that not everybody will believe that they have this prize allready guaranteed there for them to take by faith. So there will be some limited number of those who will believe and the number obviously will be less then there are prises reserved.

So now... if you look from humans standpoint, then you see that there is prise for you for your neighbour, relatives and even chinese you never met. Everybody has this guarantee. But if you look from perspective of God who knows who will ACTUALLY gain the prize, then you see some limited number of people.

So it is true to say, that there is limited number of people who will gain ethernal salvation, but exact knowledge about who and number of them is known olny to God. For us it is revealed to proclaim Gospel to all nations. You are not allowed to make speculations about things which God knows only about. God can speak about elected, but we are not allowed to base our actions against people on our opinion about who exactly is and who is not elected.
From our point of view, the set of all elect is not complete. From God's point of view it is allready known. God knows that only limited part of population will be saved and even he knows who exactly, but we don't. But Gods will is to save everybody. Not everything God knows is what he wishes.

I agree with that, but most Calvinists won't.

[mickiel]

Firs I am not calvinist, but will answer the question.

So imagine that there is contest. Requirements to win is to perform some task with limited resources. And there is promise, each one who will win will gain ethernal life, and those who will not, ethernal death.

Now. What did Christ do, he won the prise for each living soul on planet. The prise pool is sufficient for all the population of the planet for all times.

But you know and Jesus knows that not everybody will believe that they have this prize allready guaranteed there for them to take by faith. So there will be some limited number of those who will believe and the number obviously will be less then there are prises reserved.

.


Greetings,

Your arguement then is based on Belief. If you look at one of the Scriptures Seer listed, 1 John 2:2, he is the Propitition for OUR sins, the our represents the Believers, then he continues and states " Not ours ONLY, but for the sins of the whole world, which INCLUDES all humanity that your view seeks to exclude." Efectively covering the Sins of unbelievers. Your view is baseing Salvation on the Believers Faith, a critical error in much of Christianity. In Rom.3:3;" What then if some do not Believe, their unbelief willnot nullify the Faith of God will it?" May it NEVER BE! Atonement is based on God's Faith, not the Human, Jesus is the Author and Finisher of Faith, not the other way around, as you are believing. Salvation is based on the Faithfulness of Christ doing what he was sent to do. 1John 4:14 shows he was sent to save the World, not just believers. If what you stated was the case, then he would have come to call just the Believers to repentance, but HE said he came to call sinners, or unbelievers, to repentance, as he did Paul. Paul was an unbeliever, who was called by the Faith of God, you just don't think God will do the rest of humanity this grace favor.

In 1 Tim. 2:6, he is the Ransom for ALL, this covers unbelievers. Rom. 5:18 is so clear on this. What one man did condemned us all, what Christ did saves us all. You see the real thing is, that most Christians lack the belief that Christ has done this. Christians, or the very people the world is lead to believe represent Christ, are the very ones who teach this limited atonement, they include themselves while excluding the entire historic world of unbelievers who have lived and died. And I think thats a Shame. Christians ought to be ashamed of themselves, instead they are proud of their teaching of this limited Salvation. And this has been taught a very long time, I don't blame Christians for this, I blame satan for it, this shutting off of atonement. Notice Jesus in Matt.23:13;" But woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, because you shut off the Kingdom of Heaven from Men". All doctrines of Limited Atonement, are the Roots of this " Shutting Off' belief. Your justifying ways to keep sinners from Salvation by hanging their eternity on their Belief.

Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the World, John 1:29, unbelief is a sin. Oh so what, is unbelief now a Sin that is not going to be taken away, Rom.3:3 is clear. The teaching of limited salvation is humanitys effort to bring the Sins back that Christ died for and took away. Such thinking searches the Scripture to find death for unbelievers, the Scriptures are meant to search and find Life. In John 12:32, Jesus PROMISED that if he be lifted up that he will Draw ALL men to him. Why should I pay any attention to a Gospel that Limits his Promise? But the World has been suckered into listening to that Limited Gospel. Jesus died for humanity while they were YET in their Sins, their unbelief, Col.2:13.

Rom.5:8 repeats this so very Clear. God DEMONSTRATES his OWN LOVE toward unbelieving humanity in that WHILE WE WERE YET , in our state of sin and unbelief, Christ Died for us. This is the true Gospel that is neither preached OR believed.

So we have Believers going around teaching that unbelievers cannot be saved. A horrible irony , to say the Least.

Peace, Mickiel.

[Bnonn]

So what, then, is the purpose of faith? The gospel writers make a big deal out of it; it must be there for a reason.

I don't think your view of the atonement meshes with the ANE understanding of sin, grace, punishment, and restitution.

[Shazard]

Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the World, John 1:29, unbelief is a sin. Oh so what, is unbelief now a Sin that is not going to be taken away, Rom.3:3 is clear.


Exactly. Unbelief is sin which is not being taken away. God does not do spiritual rape. If you through away the Gift which is given to you, if you reject life after you have become alive, even God can't save you and still be God. God can't go against himself. Ofcourse rejection is not act, but state. God does not believe in my place. He gives faith which makes me alive. I can't get this gift, He gives. But when it is given I become free agent.
This part is very hard for Calvinists to believe. 1 Tim 4:1 It shows that human can fall from faith after it is given. Dunno why, but it can. Spirit testifies.
Blasphemy against Spirit is not forgiven. And it is rejecting of forgiveness. You can't forgive if one rejects your forgiveness... In other words you forgive, but he does not recieves.
And when Scriptures says "for Your Sins" then Spirit wants you to believe that it is promise for you personally. It is not enough to believe that God saves people in general to be saved. You have to come to faith that the promisies of God are for you personally, only such faith saves. And ofcourse it is not your work, it is God's... to give you faith, to give you "tool" or "spiritual hand" by means of which you can recieve all the Gifts God gives.

[Archangel]

There are bible verses that talk about God knowing before the world was made who would be saved and him predestinating the saved. However there are verses, such as the few that Seer pointed out, that seem to contradict this. Here is how i look at it. God knew who would be saved because he set the criteria for it before the world was made. He didnt hand pick people, but instead said that the rightous would dwell with him but the unrightous would not. In this way he was picking the people who would be saved without doing it on an individual level. Its like if I said im only going to eat the hotdogs that get grilled, im picking (and foreknowing) the hotdogs that im going to eat, however its up to the chef to grill them. "And God knew, before the package was opened, wich of the hotdogs he would eat."

[Shazard]

Its like if I said im only going to eat the hotdogs that get grilled, im picking (and foreknowing) the hotdogs that im going to eat, however its up to the chef to grill them. "And God knew, before the package was opened, wich of the hotdogs he would eat."

Yes. But if you would be able to travel into future and see which hotdog exactly you are eating, then returing to present time you know certainly which hotdog individually will be eaten.
Difference is that God knows individual hotdogs, but we don't. We are send to pour ketchup on each hotdog in the world. But from God's perspective he knows exactly who will and who will not be saved. And it is true that he sometimes speaks about those individual hotdogs, he knows them and THEY knows HIM. That's da point!

[semmie]

:rofl:

you guys do realize you're talking about hot dogs and ketchup packets, right?

:lmbo:

oh, this is precious.

The Theology of Hot Dogs, by www.theologyweb.com .

absolutely brilliant.

:rofl:

okay, sorry. carry on.

[RanRan]

Exactly. Unbelief is sin which is not being taken away.Then God is no longer reconciled and propitiated. It's as though the cross never happened. Christ did not take away the sins of the world to have us load something back on. How big is a mustard seed? If faith is no longer belieivng that God is reconciled, then what is faith in light of the cross - unbelief?

[Archangel]

Yes. But if you would be able to travel into future and see which hotdog exactly you are eating, then returing to present time you know certainly which hotdog individually will be eaten.

Haha, what can i say. I must have been hungry when creating the example. Anyway, I couold be wrong, but the way i read that verse, when it says predestined, I read that God is making some kind of conscious choice and wasnt simply knowing something. Instead he was designating something.
As for the forknowing part I could see how he could go into the future to see something and then know about it. One reason, however, that I dont believe that there is a furtue for God to see is the fact that once he saw it, he could not deviate from what he saw and in a since he is bound by fate. Otherwise you get into that age old paradox where if you change what you saw, then you didnt see it in the first place and you wouldnt know to change it and so on. I can definitly see the argument comming that God can do anything including beating the paradox. I am of the opinion, however, that God can do anything, but absurdities, such as this paradox, are not things. If God is not able to do it, then it does not exist to do and is not a thing. And if he is outside of time, then to me, many bible verses dont make since. I dont say all this to try to undermine God's power, but instead to explain to my self how he could have more power and not be a servent to the future. lol i have to say im a little worried about sounding like an idiot when I make posts. You guys are extremely smart. But it makes sense to me so even if its not a dollar, here are my two cents.

[Shazard]

Haha, what can i say. I must have been hungry when creating the example. Anyway, I couold be wrong, but the way i read that verse, when it says predestined, I read that God is making some kind of conscious choice and wasnt simply knowing something. Instead he was designating something.
As for the forknowing part I could see how he could go into the future to see something and then know about it. One reason, however, that I dont believe that there is a furtue for God to see is the fact that once he saw it, he could not deviate from what he saw and in a since he is bound by fate. Otherwise you get into that age old paradox where if you change what you saw, then you didnt see it in the first place and you wouldnt know to change it and so on. I can definitly see the argument comming that God can do anything including beating the paradox. I am of the opinion, however, that God can do anything, but absurdities, such as this paradox, are not things. If God is not able to do it, then it does not exist to do and is not a thing. And if he is outside of time, then to me, many bible verses dont make since. I dont say all this to try to undermine God's power, but instead to explain to my self how he could have more power and not be a servent to the future. lol i have to say im a little worried about sounding like an idiot when I make posts. You guys are extremely smart. But it makes sense to me so even if its not a dollar, here are my two cents.

Thats why I told you this in this paradoxical format. And that's why it is not revieled to us who will be saved at the end. But God who knows the future knows today which hotdog will be eaten tomorrow so he can say today that some hotdogs are predestinated. Also we can say that some hotdogs are predestinated, but we don't know which one. God knows which one. The problem here is that we can't think outside time and that's why some things are paradoxical. God even revealed what will happen and still knowing it we can't change it. Prediction is good when it takes in ac[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color] the fact that prediction is known before it is fullfilled.
But there are some sensitive information which is for God only and not for us. And that is - final list of saved. Exact date of end. And may be some more. We just don't have base to speculate on. God has not given us this information. We know that end will be, but we don't know when. We know that there is limited list of people who will be saved but we don't know who exactly. What we CAN say is - if we believe - we WILL be saved. There is no contest to get onto the list. List is made in future not in past. But as God is over the time - the list transcends the time, we just don't have the access to it, so it is irrivalent to us to speculate about the content of the list.

[smaller]

Firs I am not calvinist, but will answer the question.

So imagine that there is contest. Requirements to win is to perform some task with limited resources. And there is promise, each one who will win will gain ethernal life, and those who will not, ethernal death.

Now. What did Christ do, he won the prise for each living soul on planet. The prise pool is sufficient for all the population of the planet for all times.

But you know and Jesus knows that not everybody will believe that they have this prize allready guaranteed there for them to take by faith. So there will be some limited number of those who will believe and the number obviously will be less then there are prises reserved.

So now... if you look from humans standpoint, then you see that there is prise for you for your neighbour, relatives and even chinese you never met. Everybody has this guarantee. But if you look from perspective of God who knows who will ACTUALLY gain the prize, then you see some limited number of people.

So it is true to say, that there is limited number of people who will gain ethernal salvation, but exact knowledge about who and number of them is known olny to God. For us it is revealed to proclaim Gospel to all nations. You are not allowed to make speculations about things which God knows only about. God can speak about elected, but we are not allowed to base our actions against people on our opinion about who exactly is and who is not elected.

From our point of view, the set of all elect is not complete. From God's point of view it is allready known. God knows that only limited part of population will be saved and even he knows who exactly, but we don't. But Gods will is to save everybody. Not everything God knows is what he wishes.

Newsflash! God does not "get" His Own Wishes!

I have not picked on this pathetic mindset for awhile here, and I will spare you my harsher words in this matter, but that kind of thinking is just plain ol' full of contradictions that "cannot stand" against His Words:

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, I will do all my pleasure."
Isaiah 46:10

enjoy!

smaller

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Shazard]

Exactly. Unbelief is sin which is not being taken away. God does not do spiritual rape. If you through away the Gift which is given to you, if you reject life after you have become alive, even God can't save you and still be God. God can't go against himself. /QUOTE]




Chrisdtians are always making a list of things that God cannot do. The statement that God cannot save someone , and still be God, just breaks my heart to read, that people can be led to believe such horrible things about God. Christianity is so full of limitations, that it even limits God himself. Teaching he can't do this or he can't do that, there is no such thing as something God cannot do, rather there are things he simply willnot do, not that he can't do them. He can do anything that he wants, and there is no power that could stop him from doing it.

But I am sure Christians can think of something that can stop even God.

I find then that conversations with Christians are very unfulfilling and unfruitful. Very Limiting. I have noticed this for some years now, and the world is starting to notice also.

Peace, Mickiel.

[Archangel]

Chrisdtians are always making a list of things that God cannot do. The statement that God cannot save someone , and still be God, just breaks my heart to read, that people can be led to believe such horrible things about God. Christianity is so full of limitations, that it even limits God himself. Teaching he can't do this or he can't do that, there is no such thing as something God cannot do, rather there are things he simply willnot do, not that he can't do them. He can do anything that he wants, and there is no power that could stop him from doing it.
Peace, Mickiel.

My thing is, at least, that just because our minds can come up with something contradictory and irrational doesnt mean that it exists to do. It is true that God can do all things, but if there is an absurdity that is rightly beyond Gods power to do the obviously nothing else in the universe can do it either and So it doesnt exist. For instance, God creating a world where people have the ability to love but dont have the ability to not love is contradictory. Its asking God to give people a choice without giving them a choice. It cancles itself out in a sense. Just like asking God to make a rock that he can never lift but I can and remain omnipitant at the same time. I came up with that in my head, but its rediculous to assume that the contradiction is possible. But just because God doesnt perform absurdaties doesnt limit his power any because its not like it exists to do anyway. So he can still do every THING. Its not like were saying that Being x can do a thing but God cant. That would be limiting his power. But thats not what we are saying. Hope this makes sense.

[mickiel]

My thing is, at least, that just because our minds can come up with something contradictory and irrational doesnt mean that it exists to do. It is true that God can do all things, but if there is an absurdity that is rightly beyond Gods power to do the obviously nothing else in the universe can do it either and So it doesnt exist. For instance, God creating a world where people have the ability to love but dont have the ability to not love is contradictory. Its asking God to give people a choice without giving them a choice. It cancles itself out in a sense. Just like asking God to make a rock that he can never lift but I can and remain omnipitant at the same time. I came up with that in my head, but its rediculous to assume that the contradiction is possible. But just because God doesnt perform absurdaties doesnt limit his power any because its not like it exists to do anyway. So he can still do every THING. Its not like were saying that Being x can do a thing but God cant. That would be limiting his power. But thats not what we are saying. Hope this makes sense.






Greetings,

It makes a little sense, I understand you somewhat. But I still disagree. What can be more absurd than allowing the creation of the Devil? What is more awful in your mind, than Evil itself, and God allowed the creation of that. Nothing is more absurd than the Devil and Evil, and God is responsible for them being in existance, they didnot generate themselves. What we must learn to accept about God is that there are two sides to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Although God is inherently Good, and ONLY Good, it is NOT beyound him to deal with Evil. Although I believe he , himself, personally NEVER does it, he designates others to do it. Whatever absurditys you can imagine that God will not do, Evil itself is far worse than any senerio you may offer in Absurdities that you think God willnot do.

God will kill humans when he decrees that their life is now forfeit. No one has taken more human life than God. But the Lives he has taken, I believe he will restore them anewed.

As far as God being able to know the future. Listen, predestination is God actually creating the Future. It is not him looking into some far distant future, its him CREATING that far distant future with his mind. He created the future that we have not yet even lived in, so he KNOWS what he has created. That is what predestination is.

Peace, Mickiel.

[Archangel]

Greetings,
It makes a little sense, I understand you somewhat. But I still disagree. What can be more absurd than allowing the creation of the Devil? What is more awful in your mind, than Evil itself, and God allowed the creation of that. Nothing is more absurd than the Devil and Evil, and God is responsible for them being in existance, they didnot generate themselves. What we must learn to accept about God is that there are two sides to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Although God is inherently Good, and ONLY Good, it is NOT beyound him to deal with Evil. Although I believe he , himself, personally NEVER does it, he designates others to do it. Whatever absurditys you can imagine that God will not do, Evil itself is far worse than any senerio you may offer in Absurdities that you think God willnot do.


I am still of the opinion that God did not create an evil devil. According to the bible, lucifer used to be good until he rebelled somehow of his own free will. As for evil, it was not that God had evil in mind when he created the world, he had love. The only way to get love was to create the possibility for evil as well. I posted about this in the Robot forum. Finally, when i was refering to absurdaties, i didnt mean things that one morally dissagrees with, i meant things that contradict themeselves and in essence are self canceling statements or ideas.

[mickiel]

I am still of the opinion that God did not create an evil devil. According to the bible, lucifer used to be good until he rebelled somehow of his own free will. As for evil, it was not that God had evil in mind when he created the world, he had love. The only way to get love was to create the possibility for evil as well. I posted about this in the Robot forum. Finally, when i was refering to absurdaties, i didnt mean things that one morally dissagrees with, i meant things that contradict themeselves and in essence are self canceling statements or ideas.



Greetings,

Perhaps in your study, you will look into John 1:3, where Jesus is the one who brought into being, every being, and he called satan a liar from his beginning, then explain to yourself how satan can evoulve into good, then back into evil, from his beginning. There is no evolution with evil. Nor with satan, he was brought into existance as an Evil being. There is no evolution with Good. Good has always been Good, so it is with Evil.

Peace, Mickiel.