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kkawohl
July 23rd 2003, 11:29 AM
Pascal Wager is based on the Judaism, Christian and Islamic monotheistic belief systems which originated from religious conditioning. When people first acquired reasoning abilities, the first fear of an unseen deity came about when lightning and thunder caused them to cringe and seek shelter. Lightning and thunder were eventually thought to be punishment for evil deeds from a higher power that controlled the natural forces. Worshiping this power, which mankind called God, through prayers and asking for forgiveness eventually as the storm passed was believed to appease the wrath of God or the Gods.

This conditioning was further reinforced when followers of these religions accepted claims that God had personally talked to his messengers who then relayed these “Words of God” to others. Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled this “God” for the past several millennia as one who interferes with the natural forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who disobey his bidding. The God of our ancestors was then partially humanized in order to have the masses adapt to the thought processes of that time period which was fraught with superstitions.

Pascal‘s Wager is that “If you do not believe in God and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief, if you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything." This is completely incorrect because these assumptions are again based on superstitions.

The greatest scams which include deceit, swindle, and fraud, for several millennia, that have ever been perpetrated on mankind have been in the name of God. Many will disagree because "It is written in the Holy Books"; to which I say, "by fallible men who let their imaginations run amuck". The "Holy Books" (Bible, Torah, Qur’an) were written during a time when superstitions prevailed. Superstitions are an irrational belief that someone or something causes an action or circumstance not logically related to a course of events that influences its outcome. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance. A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all claim that they live by the Word of God. They claim that God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to the common folk in the writings of the Torah, Bible and the Qur’an. The followers must unquestionably believe these Words of God or they will be condemned. If that is the case, apparently the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by and having heard the Word of God correctly. These so-called Holy Books could be inspirational and could help us in our journey through life if one discounts all the references to the writers vivid imaginations of physical sightings or conversations with God, Satan, snakes, devils or angels.

The Scenario

The souls of a Rabbi, a Christian minister, and a Islamic cleric appeared at the gates of heaven at the same time and they eye each other suspiciously. The gatekeeper asked if there is a problem.

The Rabbi tells St. Peter , "Ours is the true religion. We have the word of God that this is so and it is written in the Torah that God said that we are the chosen children of God, not the Christians or the Muslims."

The Christian minister says, "Jesus told us that he is the son of God and that the only way to God was by following his teachings and that unless one is born again, one would not get into heaven. What Jesus said is the word of God and it is written in the holy Bible".

The Muslim cleric says, "God has told Muhammad that he was the last true prophet and that everything that God told him was written in the Qur’an and that those who did not follow what was written there, would not get into heaven. Islam is the only true faith which had been promised to be free from being wiped away from its true path.”

Other souls appeared and some sided with and gathered around each of their leaders, while some other souls who sided with no one entered directly through the gates of heaven.

The gatekeeper told the souls who had gathered around the souls of their clerics, "In heaven there can be no disagreement and until you all are in agreement, you have to move to the Purgatory area".

No agreement was reached and eventually the souls died (Hell) because souls who were not with God could not exist.

The lesson is: Having tunnel-vision or being closed-minded, without compassion for the belief of others around you can be bad for the body and suicide to the soul. (end of scenario)

To assess Pascal’s Wager rationally, the questions then surface, “Is there a God and if so who/what is God? Where did God come from? What if we do not believe in a God? Most people will agree that if there is a God then God is spiritual; but does a spirit really exist? Was spiritual transcendence of the spirit into a “Dimensional Beyondness” achieved by many well known religious leaders like Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Krishna, Bahá'u'lláh, Zoroaster and others of various faiths? Had they achieved spiritual enlightenment by mastering the art of spiritual transcendence. As a result of my own spiritual experiences I herby affirm the existence of a spiritual reality called “God” by mankind, but it is of no importance during our physical life whether a Spiritual Existence or God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul. One's life can be enhanced by receiving solace and being comforted during life's trials and tribulations and by having our spirit rejoice by a belief or knowledge and hope of a spiritual continuance immediately prior to physical death. The alternative is despair of a complete and useless death forever.

Every person is born with a spirit, it is neither holy nor heaven sent. Unless one is completely emotionless, a spirit is present. One may say that emotions are psychological, (of the psyche) structuralism, psychobiological, but they are nevertheless of the spirit; which also subscribes to a form of natural selection. The spirit or soul exists in the collective mental processes of the subconscious. The subconscious part of the mind and is also where the mental processes of creativity originate. The conscience adds to and stores life experiences with the spirit/soul. If the conscience is anesthetized by other than righteous conduct the existence of the spirit gradually fades and is eventually extinguished.

Existence is reality. When physical existence ceases, conclusions are often surmised that all existence ceases and spirituality is sometimes perceived to be an illusion in the physical dimension. The Ultimate Reality is spiritual and is often an illusion to the physical reality. The "spiritual dimension” at some point interacts with the physical dimension ...that is where one can find evidence of the spiritual realm of God, although all of our scientific facts are applicable only in this physical dimension, not in the spiritual. The existence of spiritual souls or God, or God’s Spirit interacting with the spirits of physical beings can not and will never be proven by science.

Evidence is proof, something that shows what is true. Truth is established by testifying, bearing witness, attesting, declaring under oath that what is testified to, is actuality. In a court of law, as in civil action, evidence is presented and the validity of this evidence is assessed by a judge or jury who rule on it; their decision is accepted and it is determined that proof has been established by a preponderance of the evidence. Throughout several millennia evidence has been presented that the Spirit of God has interacted with our spirit; this interaction was interpreted accordingly and written in the Torah, Bible, Qur'an, etc. The Ultimate Truth is indecipherable by the human mind and can only be divulged to the spirit which also often misinterprets its meaning, hence we have various religions and beliefs.

A child’s spirit is a part of the mother's spirit which is passed down to the fetus and is then separated from its host at birth. It remains partially spiritually connected to the past host until it is capable of receiving its own data by the development of the child's reasoning capabilities at about 18 months from its birth. At that time the spirit separates from the mother and the child develops it's own spirit. Being with spirit, unless one is completely emotionless, a spirit is present. One may say that emotions are psychological, (of the psyche) structuralism, psychobiological, but they are nevertheless of the spirit; which also subscribes to a form of natural selection.

The mind is unable to consciously communicate with the spirit. The conscience is the only communicator with the spirit or soul. The conscience relays information to the spirit unless the conscience is anesthetized by immoral acts or evil deeds. The spirit can not exist without a host. If the host or a mother with reasoning capabilities is not available during that time, the child's spirit bonds temporarily with the spirit of its physical provider. At about age 1 1/2 the spirit separates from the mother and the child develops it's own spirit.

The conscience relays information to the spirit. Consciousness arises when contact has been made with a base; (sense or emotion) this is when spirit initiates its first recording. The spirit is the database of the senses and emotions. If the conscience is anesthetized by other than righteous conduct the existence of the spirit gradually fades and is eventually extinguished.

There are several levels of consciousness:
A. On a scale of 1 to 10 rating, with consciousness being level 1 where the spirit accumulates data and triggers emotions.
B. The upper level of subconsciousness is at level 2; involuntary subconscious reactions are sometimes manifested.
C. The dream level at 3; a series of thoughts and visions are introduced.
Level 4 is deep sleep.
D. Hibernation or very deep sleep is at level 5.
E. At level 6 unconsciousness sets in.
F. Spiritual data is stored between levels 6 and 9.
G. At 10 the subconscious is at a point of physical imminent death.
The "deserving" spirit that has established lines of communications with Spirit of God is transmitted to the spiritual realm, filtered and cleansed of all negative emotions; then it bonds with the Supreme Spirit and then enters the spiritual realm or dimension to be with the Supreme Spirit, (God, or whatever one desires to call him/it) which is a spiritual collective of souls or spirits, consisting of Spiritual Pure Intelligence, Pure Rationality and Logic, the Ultimate Supreme Spirit.

A “deserving” (clean) spirit consists of ethics, morality, good deeds, kindness, consideration for and helping others; being "righteous" insures the survival of the soul. When the body dies, any soul that is not transmitted, and has not bonded with God, dies; it simply ceases to exist. The conscience is guided by its capacity to disseminate between pure and improper acceptable social norms. A determination is made by the conscience to abide by either the pure and proper, or to stretch the norm. Deeds contrary to purity eventually anesthetizes the conscience and lines of communication with the spirit and God are severed. Evil is not adaptable to, or compatible with Pure Intelligence. The cultural norm deduces acceptable proper behavior. If one lives thereby, the conscience is clear and no deity in the spiritual realm will judge or condemn anyone.

When a personality disorder affects the data input process, data is filtered. Brain injury does not supersede the soul, at that point data input simply ceases. If one seems to have severely impaired reasoning capabilities it does not necessarily mean that reasoning capabilities are not, or never were present; Sometimes reasoning capabilities can not be displayed or communicated to another.

God does not change with the times but our perception of who God is should change as societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. God, the Ultimate Spirit consists of Supreme Purity, Pure Intelligence, Pure Logic, etc., is not encumbered by human attributes and has no needs, or a desire to be worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else that we have to offer. Human characteristics are to exercise upon others: power, control, dominance, destruction, punishment, revenge, judgment. Everyone is individually and personally totally responsible for his own soul's destiny. The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths are due to human frailties, stupidity or imperfections and are not God's doings. God, exists in a spiritual realm and never has and never will interfere with anything on earth or in the universe.

God is interested in and is involved in humanity, but does not interfere in any way in our physical lives. God guides the development of the universe and everything thereon like a Master Planner. Our relationship and interaction of our spirit with the Spirit of God is for our, not God's benefit. Truth and logic require a foundation, the foundation being our realization that our forefathers intentions for our soul's continuity was their conviction that God had personally spoken to his messengers and had instructed them in what God desired. What was considered the truth about God was whatever society adopted thereof during their time when presuppositions of the concept of God was compared to a required domination by a ruler who was capable of enforcing laws adaptable for the society of that time period.

The spirit and the spiritual dimension is eternal; the physical dimension may not be. The fact that everything exists as a result of everything else is the consequence of evolution, creation and progression. People have portrayed God as being mysterious when the concept of God is really quite simple. God is a loving, peaceful coexistence of spiritual souls including ours upon our physical demise. God's intelligence is ever expanding and grows with the addition of each soul. Every soul is like a separate cell or atom on earth which combines with other cells or atoms to make up the existence of every living person, plant, animal and even the air which sustains all life; so also do souls perform, either individually or in unison. Any soul or spirit that is not with God can not exist, and dies. Souls perform individually or cumulatively in the same way as entities in this dimension. Souls are a part of God as we are a part of this earth.

The bonding of the first two righteous souls, the first reasoning entities, God, originated somewhere in the universe, on our earth or on a planet in another solar system, possibly billions of years ago. The bonding of the first two souls created spiritual unity which expanded and progressed, created Cumulative Intelligence. Pure Intelligence requires addition thereto to be of pure intention. (righteousness) Spiritual righteousness establishes lines of communications with God; lack thereof (immorality) causes a soul's demise upon physical death. God, similarly to almost everything in the universe, is cumulative and progressive. Once the soul is born, it continues it's journey throughout our lives and upon our physical demise it continues with God in eternity or it dies.

God, existing in a spiritual dimension, is cumulative and progressive rather than constant. The survival of God or the expansion of God's intelligence is not dependent upon the addition of souls, it expands and survives with or without them in the same way as our intelligence expands through reasoning and needs no acknowledgment from any outside source.

Project yourself into a scenario whereupon, after your spirit has established a communication link with the Spirit of God, upon your physical demise, all of the data that your spirit has accumulated and stored in your soul is transmitted and received by God into a spiritual dimension which contains any and all of the knowledge and experiences of the universe. You are now a part of God.

I have personally experienced my spirit leaving my body and being united with the Ultimate Supreme Spirit (God?). In 1956 when I was 15 years old I had double pneumonia and I thought that I would surely die. My father took me to a doctor who gave me a penicillin injection and recommended immediate hospitalization. We had no medical insurance or money, so my father took me home to recuperate. I remember the drive home vividly. Every breath was extremely painful and my chest felt as though a great weight was upon it. I watched cars and trucks drive by and I wondered how people could make long term plans when life was so unpredictable.

Several nights later it felt as if my spirit left my body and it experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I felt the greatest peace, tranquility and ecstasy. I felt a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone; many of the prophets of the bible and historical people whom I had read about, some of my deceased acquaintances and relatives. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought was interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out before us like a vast expanse with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

When I told my father who was a preacher of the Lutheran Faith about my experience he dismissed it abruptly and told me that this Supreme Spirit, this God that my spirit had witnessed was not the God of the Bible and he told me to pray for my salvation. We never talked about it afterwards.

Since that time I never really gave it much thought until after the New York World Trade Center tragedy on 9-11-01. I went into deep meditation. I wanted to find an answer as to why/how some misguided individuals could believe that their actions would be rewarded with their soul's eternal life with God. I then had a couple of very similar experiences of my spirit communicating with the Ultimate Spirit. (God, Allah or whatever one desires to call him/it) On the night of 9-11-01 my spiritual experience was very similar to the one that I had 45 years ago at age 15.

About a week later I had another spiritual experience that was in a progression which seemed to last throughout the entire night. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and peoples varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film. By what I had experienced, I perceived that I had been given a task by The Spirit of God to make an attempt to bring common sense to a belief in God.

Some will say that my experience is nothing but a dream or a vivid imagination but if you discount everything else, there is still rationality, common sense and logic. Religions have originated from an apprehension of the unknown after physical death. We do not need to fear death; it is a new beginning. The Spirit of God has revealed to me that God is not that petty so as to condemn mankind for their varying beliefs. The messenger is of no significance, it is the message that needs to be taken into account and judged for its merits. I believe that I have personally experienced a oneness with The Spirit of God and as surely as I know that God exists, I know that my soul will be with God.

Much of what I have written here is what my spirit has experienced and can be accepted or totally rejected by anyone if they so desire. Let us hope that man will eventually progress intellectually and evolve to a point whereby he can socialize with totally eliminated tendencies for barbarianism and without a fear of punishment from God; this would true enlightenment. By pointing out a flaw and reason for terrorism and violence in the name of religion, my only intent is to make people aware of the futility and intellectual gullibility of societies which have not progressed their beliefs since the Middle Ages. The main purpose is to have open-minded people peruse my writings and offer feedback on how our religious beliefs can to be brought into the 21st Century.

Hope and inspiration rejoices our spirit and gives us a reason for continuing during hopeless times. There is a reason for our existence just like there is a reason for the existence of everything in the universe. Our life on earth is to prepare us and to give us examples of the hereafter. Everything is progressive and accumulative. We are here to accumulate experiences of feelings, the beauty of every organism that surrounds us, the landscape that adds to our perception; then we can begin our next journey.

We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now, almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people, wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time. We are the most important person responsible for whether our soul will live or die. God will not judge or condemn us for our imperfections. If our conscience is at peace from having lived a decent clean life to the best of our ability our soul at the point of physical death is further purified and filtered and then received and bonded with God. Here we have to learn how to intertwine with a community; there we can experience anything that the imagination can perceive.

Envision yourself as a spirit that is uninhibited by any resistance or external influences; you can travel to any star or planet instantly, explore the beauty of the universe, and still be in sync with God. As an example: Imagine the most advanced form of Virtual Reality that can access a super-computer and place you in whichever setting you desire; you can play with the animals, be with your loved ones, listen to the greatest opera, stage or musical performances, or simply relax next to a bubbling brook and enjoy the scenery. You feel no pain, despair, heartache, or negative emotions, you are a part of God.

Kurt Kawohl
“I Am A Transcendentalist”

Please peruse my book which can be accessed free at: http://www.transcendentalism.us/

(All profits from the book are donated to charities)
I have posted on numerous boards. The surprising results have been that many who practice logical reasoning have suggested as an answer to religious radicals, that they read my book.

Transcendentalism is the rationality and logic that should be applied to All religions. One needs to keep an open mind and allow the spirit to absorb the logic of who/what God is without being inhibited by what should be considered outdated religious dogma and conditioning that has been a major contributing factor to the causes of terrorism.

http://www.authorzone.com/view_authors.php?authorid=1426

Solly
July 23rd 2003, 11:38 AM
Well kkawohl, a lot there, and who knows where to start discussing it.

however, just to pick up on your opening gambit...
Pascal Wager is based on the Judaism, Christian and Islamic monotheistic belief systems which originated from religious conditioning. When people first acquired reasoning abilities, the first fear of an unseen deity came about when lightning and thunder caused them to cringe and seek shelter. Lightning and thunder were eventually thought to be punishment for evil deeds from a higher power that controlled the natural forces. Worshiping this power, which mankind called God, through prayers and asking for forgiveness eventually as the storm passed was believed to appease the wrath of God or the Gods.

This conditioning came was further reinforced when followers of these religions accepted claims that God had personally talked to his messengers who then relayed these “Words of God” to others. Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled this “God” for the past several millennia as one who interferes with the natural forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who disobey his bidding. The God of our ancestors was then partially humanized in order to have the masses adapt to the thought processes of that time period which was fraught with superstitions.

This is an assertion. There is no evidence for this. Though men might be afraid of natural evetns, there is nothing to explain why he would suddenly start addressing a sentient being whom he can't see; nor why he would connect it with wrong doing.
Why was this not universal? Men watched the skies and leanrt the signs of the times, so that they knew bad weather was coming, and those big dark clouds bring the lightning and thunder.
Since most people are not struck by lightning, why would they think it is punishment?

This allsounds very much like the caricature of religion and power that Ayn Rand promulgated under the name Witchdoctors and Attilas.

slly5

kkawohl
July 23rd 2003, 11:46 AM
Solly,

Ayn Rand attempts to promote atheism.

Did you thoroughly understand my posting?

My spirit has seen the face of God and if I'm lying I'm risking the survival of my soul...and I KNOW that my soul will be with God...God is spiritual and is the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe; an accumulation of all the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm. God does not and never has meddled in the tangible universe. It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul.

Kurt

seer
July 23rd 2003, 12:29 PM
God does not and never has meddled in the tangible universe. It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul.

Of course now I have a problem. I have the teachings of Christ (the single most influential spiritual leader in human history) and the teachings of our new friend Kurt. Now in who's hands should I put my immortal soul?

Then we have the apostle Paul. He had a similar experience as yours:2 Cor.12:1-4. And yet he came to a completely different conclusion. That having faith in Christ and love for God were the most important things. And that works in and of themselves can not save.

Then we have me. In 1988 my heart stopped because of a drug overdose. I traveled to the source of all knowledge. For some reason though,I came back - and that began my journey to Christ.

kkawohl
July 23rd 2003, 01:11 PM
Seer,

All roads which lead to God can bring the soul to its destination. The roads may be curved and circular at times, but if one chooses one's objective and abides thereby, the goal will be achieved. Jesus, whose spirit interacted with the Spirit of God, changed the preceding opinions that God would smite the pagans and destroy their cities and abodes unless they obeyed the commands of God and the prior messengers who were considered Prophets. Jesus portrayed God to a loving father who would not harm his children.

Until Jesus’ baptism by John at about the age of 30 he had been an obscure carpenter from Galilee. But the baptism marked the turning point in his life - he began to believe he could be the Messiah and he now had a mission.

Will they who believe that Jesus was a prophet rather than the only son of God be condemned ? Are we not, as according to the bible, children of God, therefore as children, we are also a son or a daughter of God.

Jesus has been appropriately called the "Son of God" and "Prince of Peace". We are often reminded of the teachings of Jesus whose words have survived two millennia. His disciples kept him alive in the memories of all who heard and believed his words. They, as well as other "Men of God" who contributed to the compilation of the scriptures of the Bible, were inspired by God to give us guidelines to live by.

Jesus died about 30 A.D.. Mark's Gospel presents Jesus as a perfectly normal man with brothers and sisters. Luke's Gospel suggests that Jesus and John The Baptist were actually related. Jesus' teachings stressed love, charity and peace. After his death Jesus' disciples believed that Jesus presented an image of God and began to pray to him. St. Paul believed that God's powers should be made accessible to the goyim (gentiles, non-Jews) and preached the Gospel of Jesus to them. Paul never called Jesus "God". He called him "the Son of God" in its Jewish sense; he did not preach that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself but that he possessed God's "powers" and "Spirit" which manifested God's activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.

Paul created Christianity by referring to Jesus as Christ which was a translation of the Hebrew "Messiach". This doctrine was scandalized by Jews and later the Muslims who found it blasphemous. The doctrine that Jesus was divine and that Jesus had been God in human form was not finalized until the fourth century.

In order to be in harmony with the Spirit of God, one's spirit has to be in synchronization. This requires understanding and tolerance of other beliefs regardless of our own. Understanding and tolerance of others does not require our approval. The unity of God is an intertwined intelligence. Pure, real intelligence can overcome all diversity and exist in unity. By condemning others who do not believe the same as one personally does about Jesus, such as the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, one is risking the survival of one's own soul.

Jesus, Abraham, Moses, etc. are alive as spirit and a part of God. They were messengers who interpreted their spirits interaction with the Spirit of God according to their own interpretation thereof. Jesus was a messenger of God. Messengers should not be deified; the message has merit but also is open to misinterpretation by the messenger, hence we have religious divergence.

Kurt

seer
July 23rd 2003, 06:23 PM
Hey Kurt, thank you for the response. May I ask you a question? Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

kkawohl
July 23rd 2003, 07:57 PM
Yesterday @ 11:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=156563#post156563)
seer:

Hey Kurt, thank you for the response. May I ask you a question? Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

A Lord is one who enslaves and rules over his servants. A Savior is one who saves, rescues, redeems; from what? Sins and the devil are man's creations, not God's. Jesus was a messenger of God and should not be deified.

Would you want to be enslaved and ruled over for all of eternity? I wouldn't!

God Will Not Condemn Anyone. It is the lifestyle of our choosing that will determine the continuity of our soul.

Our intelligence compared to God is like that of a 2 year old child. God will make allowances for our ignorance.

It doesn't matter to God whether we believe that God is/was:

1. Created by the spirit and soul and evolved to be the supreme intelligence.
2. The beginning, always was, came out of nowhere and created the heavens and earth.
3 The one supreme ruler who dominates the universe.
4. Called God, God Almighty, Jehovah, God of Abraham, Allah or whatever.

It doesn't matter to God whether we:
1. Think that Jesus is God or a prophet.
2. Believe that the Bible or the Qur'an is the word of God or man.
3. Eat pork, dress or pray a certain way.
4. Are straight, gay, white, black, or whatever.

It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul. One's life can be enhanced by receiving solace and being comforted during life's trials and tribulations by having our spirit inspired by the Spirit of God.

Kurt
http://transcendentalism.us

seer
July 23rd 2003, 09:46 PM
Hey Kurt, thank you for the response. May I ask you a question? Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior? ”



A Lord is one who enslaves and rules over his servants. A Savior is one who saves, rescues, redeems; from what? Sins and the devil are man's creations, not God's. Jesus was a messenger of God and should not be deified.

I take that as a no - thanks...

Bib Lit Major
July 24th 2003, 02:25 AM
Yesterday @ 06:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=156615#post156615)
kkawohl:



A Lord is one who enslaves and rules over his servants. A Savior is one who saves, rescues, redeems; from what? Sins and the devil are man's creations, not God's. Jesus was a messenger of God and should not be deified.

Would you want to be enslaved and ruled over for all of eternity? I wouldn't!

With Jesus as my Lord, yes, I want to be "enslaved" because He loves me so much. The only other option is being a slave to sin, which isn't a merciful lord. How can one have "righteous living" without recognizing and avoiding "sins"? What is righteous living if there is no moral wrong? This seems to me a logical contradiction in your belief system. I could just as easily say God is man's creation as well. What is to stop me (other than my own belief that God does exist, along with sin and the devil)?

kkawohl
July 24th 2003, 05:27 AM
Today @ 07:25 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=156852#post156852)
Bib Lit Major:



With Jesus as my Lord, yes, I want to be "enslaved" because He loves me so much. The only other option is being a slave to sin, which isn't a merciful lord. How can one have "righteous living" without recognizing and avoiding "sins"? What is righteous living if there is no moral wrong? This seems to me a logical contradiction in your belief system. I could just as easily say God is man's creation as well. What is to stop me (other than my own belief that God does exist, along with sin and the devil)?

You have been well conditioned and brain-washed into Christianity...but if that works for you, great...you will achieve your goal as long as you do not condemn others who believe differently.

A “deserving” (clean) spirit consists of ethics, morality, good deeds, kindness, consideration for and helping others; being "righteous" insures the survival of the soul. When the body dies, any soul that is not transmitted, and has not bonded with God, dies; it simply ceases to exist. The conscience is guided by its capacity to disseminate between pure and improper acceptable social norms. A determination is made by the conscience to abide by either the pure and proper, or to stretch the norm. Deeds contrary to purity eventually anesthetizes the conscience and lines of communication with the spirit and God are severed. Evil is not adaptable to, or compatible with Pure Intelligence. The cultural norm deduces acceptable proper behavior. If one lives thereby, the conscience is clear and no deity in the spiritual realm will judge or condemn anyone.

The Dead Sea Scrolls offer unprecedented information about Jewish religious and political life in Palestine during the turbulent late Second Temple Period (200 B.C. to A.D. 70), a time of great corruption and conflict under Roman rule in Palestine. Scholars estimate that the Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden in A.D. 68, when Roman legions reached the Dead Sea during the emperor Vespasian's campaign to Jericho.

The scrolls also shed light on the time when Jesus and John the Baptist lived and early Christians began to organize. Specifically, they offer evidence that early Christian beliefs and practices had precedents in the Jewish sects of the time. Sectarian scrolls tell of people who, like the early Christians, did not believe in the Temple worship of the Pharisees, people who had their own literature, their own rituals-including baptism-and their own beliefs, most significantly beliefs in a messiah, a divine judgment, and an apocalypse. Three different scrolls depict a sacred meal of bread and wine. These similarities as well as parallels between the literary style of certain scrolls and that of the New Testament have led some scholars to claim that Jesus and John the Baptist were either part of or strongly influenced by a sect at the Dead Sea.

Debate has furthered speculation about the historical Jesus, such as the claim that he was a Zealot rather than a pacifist, a theory that does not fit with New Testament tradition but does fit with the history of this period. And one of the most important discoveries in the scrolls has been the use of the name Son of God to refer to someone other than Jesus, implying a cultural use of the term that was not itself synonymous with God.

God can be considered nirvana, spiritual existence or whatever one constitutes it to be. Throughout several millennia evidence has been presented that The Spirit (which man called God) has interacted with our spirit; (not physically) this interaction was interpreted accordingly and written in the Torah, Bible, Qur'an, etc., but this interaction has often been misinterpreted as his messengers having physically heard, spoken to or having seen God. Also due to superstitions and conditioning, the mind interpreted the spiritual interaction accordingly. These interpretations sufficed in helping the societies of that time period to sometimes amend their wicked ways and live righteously. The mission of The Spirit was accomplished successfully. Today as mankind eventually eliminates superstitious beliefs, messages from The Spirit are interpreted along lines that are acceptable to today’s society.

In this 21st Century most religious beliefs are still based on superstitions and are as antiquated as in several millennia past. When peoples' concepts are flawed, corrections, truth, logic and common sense thereof must eventually prevail.

My spirit has seen the face of God and if I'm lying I'm risking the survival of my soul...and I KNOW that my soul will be with God...God is spiritual and is the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe; an accumulation of all the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm. God does not and never has meddled in the tangible universe. It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul.

Kurt
http://transcendentalism.us

Bib Lit Major
July 24th 2003, 05:56 AM
Today @ 04:27 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=156893#post156893)
kkawohl:



You have been well conditioned and brain-washed into Christianity...but if that works for you, great...you will achieve your goal as long as you do not condemn others who believe differently.

Believe what you will, but the only reason I believe what I do is because I made a choice to believe the Bible, not because I follow a church doctrine in Christianity. Also, who are you to tell me what I can and can't do to reach my goal, if there is no "sin"? Isn't that a little intolerant of you?

A ?deserving? (clean) spirit consists of ethics, morality, good deeds, kindness, consideration for and helping others; being "righteous" insures the survival of the soul. When the body dies, any soul that is not transmitted, and has not bonded with God, dies; it simply ceases to exist. The conscience is guided by its capacity to disseminate between pure and improper acceptable social norms. A determination is made by the conscience to abide by either the pure and proper, or to stretch the norm. Deeds contrary to purity eventually anesthetizes the conscience and lines of communication with the spirit and God are severed. Evil is not adaptable to, or compatible with Pure Intelligence. The cultural norm deduces acceptable proper behavior. If one lives thereby, the conscience is clear and no deity in the spiritual realm will judge or condemn anyone.

How can deeds contrary to purity not be "sins"? Also if the cultural norms are for bashing homosexuals, does that mean one's conscience isn't clear if they decide not to bash a homosexual? Culutral norms are relative, kkawohl. What is normative for you may not be normative for me, if I live in another cultural setting.

The Dead Sea Scrolls offer unprecedented information about Jewish religious and political life in Palestine during the turbulent late Second Temple Period (200 B.C. to A.D. 70), a time of great corruption and conflict under Roman rule in Palestine. Scholars estimate that the Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden in A.D. 68, when Roman legions reached the Dead Sea during the emperor Vespasian's campaign to Jericho.

The scrolls also shed light on the time when Jesus and John the Baptist lived and early Christians began to organize. Specifically, they offer evidence that early Christian beliefs and practices had precedents in the Jewish sects of the time. Sectarian scrolls tell of people who, like the early Christians, did not believe in the Temple worship of the Pharisees, people who had their own literature, their own rituals-including baptism-and their own beliefs, most significantly beliefs in a messiah, a divine judgment, and an apocalypse. Three different scrolls depict a sacred meal of bread and wine. These similarities as well as parallels between the literary style of certain scrolls and that of the New Testament have led some scholars to claim that Jesus and John the Baptist were either part of or strongly influenced by a sect at the Dead Sea.

Well, I don't know who these scholars are, but they fail to see the vast distinctions between the Qumranites and Jesus and John the Baptist. To be sure there is some similarity, but even in the closest match, John, the fact that John does not live in the "Community," but instead lives alone, as well as other practices shed doubt that there is much close relation.

Debate has furthered speculation about the historical Jesus, such as the claim that he was a Zealot rather than a pacifist, a theory that does not fit with New Testament tradition but does fit with the history of this period.

Actually the Zealots probably didn't form until right around the time of the Jewish Revolt in circa 66-70AD, long after Jesus.

And one of the most important discoveries in the scrolls has been the use of the name Son of God to refer to someone other than Jesus, implying a cultural use of the term that was not itself synonymous with God.

:huh: I think you're refering to "Son of Man," but being a "son of God" was used for persons other than Jesus (don't have to look past the Bible for that one). However, Jesus is the Son of God. He is uniquely the son of God (John 1:18, NRSV). He also makes claims such as originating from God (John 7:28-29).

Sincerely,
Kevin

Heathen Dawn
July 24th 2003, 05:35 PM
seer,

If the Bible didn't have the promise of eternal reward (for accepting Jesus) and eternal punishment (for not doing so), would you be a Christian? I highly doubt it.

Christianity is a religion of fire-insurance if there ever was one. Satan's very own religion.

Bib Lit Major
July 25th 2003, 02:05 AM
I know this wasn't directed at me but, I would be a Christian. I think you (as well as a lot of Christianity today) have a misperception of what being a disciple of Jesus is about. IT's not about get-out-of-Hell-free cards, its about a relationship, where He is God, and I am servant. Where Jesus goes, I go. What Jesus did, I will do (like be a living martyr, dying to my will). Why? because I love Him and He's worthy! Why? because he set me free from my own depravity (which, though results in my freedom of Hell, that is not the purpose of Christianity) and changed my whole life. I mean no offence to you, and you may not agree, but I disagree that Christianity is about Heaven and Hell. They are there, but the sole purpose of Jesus' life was not get people out of Hell (though that will happen) but acquire for Himself a people, who do His will. See for example, 2 Cor 5:15, 1 Peter 2:9-10; 3:18, and Titus 2:12-14.

kkawohl
July 25th 2003, 01:34 PM
Throughout several millennia evidence has been presented that The Spirit (let’s call him/it God) has interacted with our spirit; (not physically) this interaction was interpreted accordingly and written in the Torah, Bible, Qur'an, etc., but this interaction has often been misinterpreted as his messengers having physically heard, spoken to or having seen God. Also due to superstitions and conditioning, the mind interpreted the spiritual interaction accordingly. These interpretations sufficed in helping the societies of that time period to sometimes amend their wicked ways and live righteously. The mission of The Spirit of God was accomplished successfully.

Today as mankind eventually eliminates superstitious beliefs, messages from The Spirit are interpreted along lines that are acceptable to today’s society. We should not fault or condemn past or various religious beliefs because they ALL also served their purpose. The ultimate reality is, that whatever works for you, great, but it really makes no difference what your or anyone’s belief system is. Righteous living will determine the continuity of the spirit.

Bib Lit Major
July 25th 2003, 01:56 PM
Why do I get the feeling that I'm talking to someone's published articles and not to them? This is the second time you've stated this in this thread. You have no more basis to say that the Spirit's message has been misinterpreted than I have to say that you have misinterpreted the Spirit.

Until you actually start responding to me, instead of cutting and pasting, I will withdraw from this conversation. You need to adequately deal with how one can practice "righteous living" when "sin" is non-existent. How can one be truly righteous, if there is no unrighteousness? I mean no offense to you, but I am not here to debate someone's text, and then have that text put back as a rebuttal without any clarifications or showing where my logicor argument is flawed. What if I just decided to throw up Bible verses, and when you answered I threw up more Bible verses, or the same Bible verses without any kind of clarification or such? I think you'd be pretty frustrated at me. Please, understand how it feels when you do the same with your pre-written arguments.

seer
July 26th 2003, 06:43 AM
If the Bible didn't have the promise of eternal reward (for accepting Jesus) and eternal punishment (for not doing so), would you be a Christian? I highly doubt it.

First emotional, eternal punishment never came into consideration in my conversion experience. Second, yes I do look foward to spending eternity with my beloved Christ. So sue me.


Christianity is a religion of fire-insurance if there ever was one. Satan's very own religion.

The basis of Christianity is relationship. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.

SaintMorpheus
July 26th 2003, 07:55 PM
Second, yes I do look foward to spending eternity with my beloved Christ. So sue me.


That's the quote of the day right there, Seer! I'm lovin' it, man, lovin' it. The rest of the world can try to be so-called "noble" and do things for so-called "pure" reasons, but I don't have any problem with being in love with Christ and enjoying His presence and looking forward to more of it. Lovin' it, man, lovin' it.

seer
July 27th 2003, 08:31 AM
Today @ 12:55 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=159655#post159655)
SaintMorpheus:



That's the quote of the day right there, Seer! I'm lovin' it, man, lovin' it. The rest of the world can try to be so-called "noble" and do things for so-called "pure" reasons, but I don't have any problem with being in love with Christ and enjoying His presence and looking forward to more of it. Lovin' it, man, lovin' it.

Amen brother Morpheus! Call me selfish, call me mercenary, I gladly plead guilty...