The abomination that causes desolation

[themuzicman]

The final for exegesis in the gospels was a paper presentation on a passage in the New Testament. Mine was John 6.

However, I heard a presentation on Mark 13:14, which is part of the Markan olivet discourse, and I started thinking. (Which usually amounts to nothing, but...)

The phrase comes from Daniel, and the actual phrase is found in Daniel 11.

However, Daniel needed some context from which to draw, so I started looking for "desolation" elsewhere in scripture, and found this:

Lev 26:26:1 `You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a [sacred] pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God. 2 `You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the Lord. 3 `If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments so as to carry them out...

14 `But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, 15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, [and] so break My covenant ...


27 `Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, 28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29 `Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. 30 `I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. 31 `I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas.

32 `I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. 33 `You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. 34 `Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 `All the days of [its] desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.

36 `As for those of you who may be left, I will also bring weakness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies. And the sound of a driven leaf will chase them, and even when no one is pursuing they will flee as though from the sword, and they will fall. 37 `They will therefore stumble over each other as if [running] from the sword, although no one is pursuing; and you will have [no strength] to stand up before your enemies. 38 `But you will perish among the nations, and your enemies' land will consume you. 39 `So those of you who may be left will rot away because of their iniquity in the lands of your enemies; and also because of the iniquities of their forefathers they will rot away with them.


40 `If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me-- 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies--or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land. 43 `For the land will be abandoned by them, and will make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, will be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 `Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God. 45 `But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the Lord.' "

Interestingly, between 14 and 27, there is a progression of increasingly bad things which will happen to Israel, if they don't obey God's commands. I haven't looked into it, but I wonder if we could align these things with the ills that plagued Israel between this time and the time of Christ.

Anyway, the item I found interesting was that the command was to NOT make idols, and to keep the Sabbath, and then in verse 34, the LAND enjoys the Sabbaths, even in desolation, and it will enjoy them as the Sabbaths that it did not enjoy when the Israelites were living there.

Is the land in desolation from the time of the exile or the time of Daniel until AD 70? It would seem to be so.

Forward to verse 36: Those who may be left... a remnant? Those who return from the exile? Even these will perish.

Unless they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their Fathers... Sound somewhat familliar? God will remember and restore their land? But does this ever happen?

Fast foward to Daniel. Seventy Sevens (or Sabbaths) are decreed for Israel and the Holy City, and when the abomination that causes desolation comes... Which appears to happen in Daniel 11!

30 "For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Thus begins (or has already begun) the clock ticking on Daniel 9 and Leviticus 26, which ends with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the scattering of the nation of Israel.

And what do we see in Jesus day? The pharisees, in building altars to the prophets, acknowledge that their forefathers killed the prophets, but do NOT repent of the iniquity of their forefathers, and Jesus calls them on this! They also reject their Messiah, the Son of God, thus showing their unfaithfulness, as well.

So, are we to conclude that the end of Israel is Leviticus 26:14-39, or Leviticus 26:40-45?

Does it not seem to be the former?

Michael

[themuzicman]

The final for exegesis in the gospels was a paper presentation on a passage in the New Testament. Mine was John 6.

However, I heard a presentation on Mark 13:14, which is part of the Markan olivet discourse, and I started thinking. (Which usually amounts to nothing, but...)

The phrase comes from Daniel, and the actual phrase is found in Daniel 11.

However, Daniel needed some context from which to draw, so I started looking for "desolation" elsewhere in scripture, and found this:

Lev 26:26:1 `You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a [sacred] pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God. 2 `You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the Lord. 3 `If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments so as to carry them out...

14 `But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, 15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, [and] so break My covenant ...


27 `Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, 28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29 `Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. 30 `I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. 31 `I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas.

32 `I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. 33 `You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. 34 `Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 `All the days of [its] desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.

36 `As for those of you who may be left, I will also bring weakness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies. And the sound of a driven leaf will chase them, and even when no one is pursuing they will flee as though from the sword, and they will fall. 37 `They will therefore stumble over each other as if [running] from the sword, although no one is pursuing; and you will have [no strength] to stand up before your enemies. 38 `But you will perish among the nations, and your enemies' land will consume you. 39 `So those of you who may be left will rot away because of their iniquity in the lands of your enemies; and also because of the iniquities of their forefathers they will rot away with them.


40 `If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me-- 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies--or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land. 43 `For the land will be abandoned by them, and will make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, will be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 `Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God. 45 `But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the Lord.' "

Interestingly, between 14 and 27, there is a progression of increasingly bad things which will happen to Israel, if they don't obey God's commands. I haven't looked into it, but I wonder if we could align these things with the ills that plagued Israel between this time and the time of Christ.

Anyway, the item I found interesting was that the command was to NOT make idols, and to keep the Sabbath, and then in verse 34, the LAND enjoys the Sabbaths, even in desolation, and it will enjoy them as the Sabbaths that it did not enjoy when the Israelites were living there.

Is the land in desolation from the time of the exile or the time of Daniel until AD 70? It would seem to be so.

Forward to verse 36: Those who may be left... a remnant? Those who return from the exile? Even these will perish.

Unless they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their Fathers... Sound somewhat familliar? God will remember and restore their land? But does this ever happen?

Fast foward to Daniel. Seventy Sevens (or Sabbaths) are decreed for Israel and the Holy City, and when the abomination that causes desolation comes... Which appears to happen in Daniel 11!

30 "For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Thus begins (or has already begun) the clock ticking on Daniel 9 and Leviticus 26, which ends with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the scattering of the nation of Israel.

And what do we see in Jesus day? The pharisees, in building altars to the prophets, acknowledge that their forefathers killed the prophets, but do NOT repent of the iniquity of their forefathers, and Jesus calls them on this! They also reject their Messiah, the Son of God, thus showing their unfaithfulness, as well.

So, are we to conclude that the end of Israel is Leviticus 26:14-39, or Leviticus 26:40-45?

Does it not seem to be the former?

Michael
:bump:

[studyhound]

The final for exegesis in the gospels was a paper presentation on a passage in the New Testament. Mine was John 6.

However, I heard a presentation on Mark 13:14, which is part of the Markan olivet discourse, and I started thinking. (Which usually amounts to nothing, but...)

The phrase comes from Daniel, and the actual phrase is found in Daniel 11.

However, Daniel needed some context from which to draw, so I started looking for "desolation" elsewhere in scripture, and found this:

Lev 26:26:1 `You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a [sacred] pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God. 2 `You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the Lord. 3 `If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments so as to carry them out...

14 `But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, 15 if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, [and] so break My covenant ...


27 `Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, 28 then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. 29 `Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. 30 `I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. 31 `I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas.

32 `I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. 33 `You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. 34 `Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 `All the days of [its] desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.

36 `As for those of you who may be left, I will also bring weakness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies. And the sound of a driven leaf will chase them, and even when no one is pursuing they will flee as though from the sword, and they will fall. 37 `They will therefore stumble over each other as if [running] from the sword, although no one is pursuing; and you will have [no strength] to stand up before your enemies. 38 `But you will perish among the nations, and your enemies' land will consume you. 39 `So those of you who may be left will rot away because of their iniquity in the lands of your enemies; and also because of the iniquities of their forefathers they will rot away with them.


40 `If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me-- 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies--or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land. 43 `For the land will be abandoned by them, and will make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, will be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 `Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God. 45 `But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the Lord.' "

Interestingly, between 14 and 27, there is a progression of increasingly bad things which will happen to Israel, if they don't obey God's commands. I haven't looked into it, but I wonder if we could align these things with the ills that plagued Israel between this time and the time of Christ.

Anyway, the item I found interesting was that the command was to NOT make idols, and to keep the Sabbath, and then in verse 34, the LAND enjoys the Sabbaths, even in desolation, and it will enjoy them as the Sabbaths that it did not enjoy when the Israelites were living there.

Is the land in desolation from the time of the exile or the time of Daniel until AD 70? It would seem to be so.

Forward to verse 36: Those who may be left... a remnant? Those who return from the exile? Even these will perish.

Unless they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their Fathers... Sound somewhat familliar? God will remember and restore their land? But does this ever happen?

Fast foward to Daniel. Seventy Sevens (or Sabbaths) are decreed for Israel and the Holy City, and when the abomination that causes desolation comes... Which appears to happen in Daniel 11!

30 "For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Thus begins (or has already begun) the clock ticking on Daniel 9 and Leviticus 26, which ends with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the scattering of the nation of Israel.

And what do we see in Jesus day? The pharisees, in building altars to the prophets, acknowledge that their forefathers killed the prophets, but do NOT repent of the iniquity of their forefathers, and Jesus calls them on this! They also reject their Messiah, the Son of God, thus showing their unfaithfulness, as well.

So, are we to conclude that the end of Israel is Leviticus 26:14-39, or Leviticus 26:40-45?

Does it not seem to be the former?

Michael
:thumb:

[themuzicman]

Am I reinventing a wheel, here?

[spiritmech]

Am I reinventing a wheel, here?
I think this is good. I've never seen Daniel tied back to anything. It's always used as the source material for Matthew, Luke, Rev, etc.

Also, the presence of God was not in the temple in Jerusalem for quite a long time as well. "Ichabod." The presentation of Jesus at the temple (40 days after his birth) and His recognition by Simeon is quite a big deal as well.

Maybe the abomination of desolation is not so much a presence (idol, armies, etc) as it is an absence. (An absence of God.)
sm

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

I think this is good. I've never seen Daniel tied back to anything. It's always used as the source material for Matthew, Luke, Rev, etc.

Also, the presence of God was not in the temple in Jerusalem for quite a long time as well. "Ichabod." The presentation of Jesus at the temple (40 days after his birth) and His recognition by Simeon is quite a big deal as well.

Maybe the abomination of desolation is not so much a presence (idol, armies, etc) as it is an absence. (An absence of God.)
sm
Good thought SM. And it makes sense that the abomination dealing with the temple be tied back to Lev. (the foundational work of themple worship practice).

Which really makes more sense from a covenantal stand point. Why would an idol placed (or person or anything) else placed inside the temple by someone else (non-covenantal person) be the "abomination that brings desolation" on the temple in AD 70? When the post exilic (sp?) writers place the blame on the lack of faith of Israel for the desolation of the first temple.

We still have to deal with the "set up" and "standing" laguage used to reffer to the OoD, but I think this is good place to start thinking afresh about the OoD.

Now, I had heard that the 70 years exile traced back to this passage, but never the OoD. (In hind sight is blinging obvious though :doh: )

[Ted]

Good thought SM. And it makes sense that the abomination dealing with the temple be tied back to Lev. (the foundational work of themple worship practice).

Which really makes more sense from a covenantal stand point. Why would an idol placed (or person or anything) else placed inside the temple by someone else (non-covenantal person) be the "abomination that brings desolation" on the temple in AD 70? When the post exilic (sp?) writers place the blame on the lack of faith of Israel for the desolation of the first temple.

We still have to deal with the "set up" and "standing" laguage used to reffer to the OoD, but I think this is good place to start thinking afresh about the OoD.

Now, I had heard that the 70 years exile traced back to this passage, but never the OoD. (In hind sight is blinging obvious though :doh: )

Let's take this a little further. Daniel simply cannot be understood without Torah, specifically Leviticus. Daniel 8 uses sacrificial animals (goat and Ram) to point out that the prophecy is tied to covenant. The "four horns" (8:8-9) echoes the four horns of the altar of sacrifice, and 8:13 asks how long the little horn will be able trample on the sanctuary (the center of the covenant) with his pesha shamem (desolating sacrilege, a synonym for AoD). Of course, the second half of 11 is loaded with covenant language ("prince of the covenant," "sanctuary fortress," "god his fathers did not know," etc.)

9:24 declares 70 weeks. This comes straight from Lev 25 and the Jubilee cycle. The "7 weeks" and "62 weeks" in 9:25 is designed to focus our attention on the Jubilee (7 weeks).

If you go to the prayer in Dan 9, it's all about covenant breaking and covenant punishment.

Put simply, the primary subject of the book of Daniel is covenant. Everything else is secondary. Since the covenant comes from Torah, you have to know Torah well before you can understand Daniel. By extension, since Revelation depends so heavily on Daniel, and is absolutely loaded with sanctuary language, the primary interpretive tool for that book must be Torah.

Ted

[David_A_Reed]

Yes, of course the events Jesus spoke of relate to the events Daniel spoke of, which were the events Moses predicted. The best way to understand it all is to read just the Bible, from beginning to end, over and over again.

The immediate context is helpful, too. Just a few verses before 'the abomination that causes desolation,' Matthew records that Jesus said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, ...Look, your house is left to you desolate." (Matt. 23:38 NIV) That temple would be left desolate by something that causes desolation -- the abomination that causes desolation.

Then Jesus went on to describe how "not one stone here will be left on another; every on will be thrown down." (24: 2) In verse 3 the disciples ask, when will 'this' happen? And thirteen verses later Jesus explains that the desolation will be accomplished by 'the abomination that causes desolation.' (vs. 15) It is the same temple that is left 'desolate' and faces 'desolation.'

David

[HerodionRomulus]

The abomination of desolation refers to the defilement of the Temple by the Selucids when a pig was sacrificed on the altar. See I Mac.
Jesus is saying that the same thing will happen again, looking forward to the elimination of the Jerusalem temple by Titus.

Leviticus certainly can be pertinent. Michael, I would direct you to the exhaustive Anchor Bible translation and commentary on Revelation by Dr. J.M. Ford, which certainly ties Lev. into the Revelation--in great detail.

[eschaton]

The abomination of desolation refers to the defilement of the Temple by the Selucids when a pig was sacrificed on the altar. See I Mac.
Jesus is saying that the same thing will happen again, looking forward to the elimination of the Jerusalem temple by Titus.

Leviticus certainly can be pertinent. Michael, I would direct you to the exhaustive Anchor Bible translation and commentary on Revelation by Dr. J.M. Ford, which certainly ties Lev. into the Revelation--in great detail.

Why isn't that explained in the NT. Is that what the apostles taught the early church?

[HerodionRomulus]

Why isn't that explained in the NT. Is that what the apostles taught the early church?

As to what the apostle taught the early church, there is no record one way or another so it is hard to say. It certainly indicates that the frenzied misuse of Daniel so prominent today was not present.

Why must the NT explicitly state something before it is true? The people of the time had the experiences of the Maccabee/Hasmonean period very clear in their memory, it had only happened a short time ago. Just as if we were speaking, we would not explain every detail of the Civil War--some things are assumed to be so well known that they do not need stating.

To show this another way: where in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt marry." Does the lack of commandment to marry in the Law mean that marriage is not necessary or is not important?

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

The abomination of desolation refers to the defilement of the Temple by the Selucids when a pig was sacrificed on the altar. See I Mac.
Jesus is saying that the same thing will happen again, looking forward to the elimination of the Jerusalem temple by Titus.

Leviticus certainly can be pertinent. Michael, I would direct you to the exhaustive Anchor Bible translation and commentary on Revelation by Dr. J.M. Ford, which certainly ties Lev. into the Revelation--in great detail.


I think that it would be prudent to look at the Didache, probably post-destruction of Jerusalem, for an indicator of what the early Christians thought about the A of D.

For in the last days, the false prophets and the corruptors will be multiplied, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate. For when the lawlessness increases, they will hate one another, and they will persecute and deliver up, and then the deceiver of creation will appear as God's son, and he will do signs and wonders. And the land will be given up into his hands. And he will do lawless things which have never been done from the age.

[HerodionRomulus]

Nothing in the material you cite has any relevance to the abomination of desolation.
Read the whole Bible:

"Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering....On the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar that was on top of the altar of burnt offering."

I Mac 1:54ff

They built an altar over the altar of burnt offering, then offered a sacrifice(pig).

The events of this period were very vivid to the people of Judea and Jesus was not more specific because he knew that the audience would know what he meant without him being so specific.
It's only those who in later years did not understand the context who made it a confused issue.

[eschaton]

As to what the apostle taught the early church, there is no record one way or another so it is hard to say. It certainly indicates that the frenzied misuse of Daniel so prominent today was not present.

Why must the NT explicitly state something before it is true? The people of the time had the experiences of the Maccabee/Hasmonean period very clear in their memory, it had only happened a short time ago. Just as if we were speaking, we would not explain every detail of the Civil War--some things are assumed to be so well known that they do not need stating.

To show this another way: where in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt marry." Does the lack of commandment to marry in the Law mean that marriage is not necessary or is not important?

Actually, we have writings about the abomination of desolation from the church fathers. It's true that most who are considered church fathers wrote more than two hundred years later. We do have extra-biblical writings from several who are considered orthodox Christian from the late first and mid to early second century that mention the abomination of desolation.

The writings of the ECF aren't considered on the same level as the canonical writings of course. Somebody always brings up Irenaus' mention of Jesus' age for instance. But none the less some of them either knew the apostles personally, or were only an acquaintance away from them. As such, it seems likely that we might understand what the apostles taught about such things by reading what the earliest christians said.

It is also very true that there were clear teachings about these things in first century Judaism. You mentioned I Maccabees, and also Josephus defined these things. However, Jesus explicitly ignores these ideas when He mentions the abomination of desolation. We have to be careful not to read too much into what He said. If He was indeed indicating that the later destruction of Jerusalem would be like what happened in Maccabees, then I'm sure that's what the apostles would have taught, both before and after the destruction.

I just think it would be worthwhile to examine what the earliest saints and martyrs said.

[eschaton]

Actually, we have writings about the abomination of desolation from the church fathers. It's true that most who are considered church fathers wrote more than two hundred years later. We do have extra-biblical writings from several who are considered orthodox Christian from the late first and mid to early second century that mention the abomination of desolation.

The writings of the ECF aren't considered on the same level as the canonical writings of course. Somebody always brings up Irenaus' mention of Jesus' age for instance. But none the less some of them either knew the apostles personally, or were only an acquaintance away from them. As such, it seems likely that we might understand what the apostles taught about such things by reading what the earliest christians said.

It is also very true that there were clear teachings about these things in first century Judaism. You mentioned I Maccabees, and also Josephus defined these things. However, Jesus explicitly ignores these ideas when He mentions the abomination of desolation. We have to be careful not to read too much into what He said. If He was indeed indicating that the later destruction of Jerusalem would be like what happened in Maccabees, then I'm sure that's what the apostles would have taught, both before and after the destruction.

I just think it would be worthwhile to examine what the earliest saints and martyrs said.


The first teachings about the abomination of desolation that I would like to present are from Hippolytus [a.d. 170-236.] Although he might be considered a third century father he has close connections to his teacher Irenaeus [a.d. 120-202] and this can be seen in some of his writings. Although he disagreed with his teacher about Jesus' age when He was crucified, he echoed and expanded upon what Irenaeus taught about prophecy. He taught very clearly in Heads Against Caius that the 70 AD destruction was not the focus of Jesus' teaching.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/dionysius_syrus_revelation_01.htm#C6

These references also demonstrate his understanding.


39...
As also it was announced to Daniel: "And one week shall confirm a covenant with many; and in the midst of the week it shall be that the sacrifice and oblation shall be removed"-that the one week might be shown to be divided into two. The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during the test of the week, and desolate the world, that what is written may be fulfilled: "And they shall make the abomination of desolation for a thousand two hundred and ninety days."


43. By the stretching forth of His two hands He signified His passion; and by mentioning "a time, and times, and an half, when the dispersion is accomplished," He indicated the three years and a half of Antichrist. For by "a time" He means a year, and by "times" two years, and by an "half time" half a year. These are the thousand two hundred and ninety days of which Daniel prophesied for the finishing of the passion, and the accomplishment of the dispersion when Antichrist comes. In those days they shall know all these things. And from the time of the removal of the continuous sacrifice there are also reckoned one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Then) iniquity shall abound, as the Lord also says: "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

The interpretation by Hippolytus, (bishop) of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, taken in conjunction


11. "The abomination of desolation shall be given (set up)." Daniel speaks, therefore, of two abominations: the one of destruction, which Antiochus set up in its appointed time, and which bears a relation to that of desolation, and the other universal, when Antichrist shall come. For, as Daniel says, he too shall be set up for the destruction of many.

Scholia on Daniel, Chapter 12

62. The Lord also says, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains, and let him which is on the housetop not come down to take his clothes; neither let him which is in the field return back to take anything out of his house. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved." And Daniel says, "And they shall place the abomination of desolation a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand two hundred and ninety-five days."

63. And the blessed Apostle Paul, writing to the Thessalonians, says: "Now we beseech you, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together at it, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letters as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for (that day shall not come) except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth (will let), until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: (even him) whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." And Esaias says, "Let the wicked be cut off, that he behold not the glory of the Lord."

Treatise on Christ and Antichrist


Irenaeus testified about those who knew the apostle John face to face. It is easy to see the influence Irenaeus had on Hippolytus


1. And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God." The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped-that is, above every idol-for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.

2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be."

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXV


Still earlier we have the tesimony of Justin Martyr [a.d. 110-165.], who Irenaeus mentions also.


O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel...

Dialogue of Justin, Chapter CX


Then we have the Epistle of Barnabas. It is my understanding that this epistle almost made it into the NT. It was believed to be written by Barnabas of the Book of Acts.

The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, "For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance." And the prophet also speaks thus: "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings. In like manner Daniel says concerning the same, "And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and more savage than all the beasts of the earth, and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the great horns." Ye ought therefore to understand.

Chapter IV

[Secretary of Education - Colin the Cat]

The first teachings about the abomination of desolation that I would like to present are from Hippolytus [a.d. 170-236.] Although he might be considered a third century father he has close connections to his teacher Irenaeus [a.d. 120-202] and this can be seen in some of his writings. Although he disagreed with his teacher about Jesus' age when He was crucified, he echoed and expanded upon what Irenaeus taught about prophecy. He taught very clearly in Heads Against Caius that the 70 AD destruction was not the focus of Jesus' teaching.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/dionysius_syrus_revelation_01.htm#C6

These references also demonstrate his understanding.


39...
As also it was announced to Daniel: "And one week shall confirm a covenant with many; and in the midst of the week it shall be that the sacrifice and oblation shall be removed"-that the one week might be shown to be divided into two. The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during the test of the week, and desolate the world, that what is written may be fulfilled: "And they shall make the abomination of desolation for a thousand two hundred and ninety days."


43. By the stretching forth of His two hands He signified His passion; and by mentioning "a time, and times, and an half, when the dispersion is accomplished," He indicated the three years and a half of Antichrist. For by "a time" He means a year, and by "times" two years, and by an "half time" half a year. These are the thousand two hundred and ninety days of which Daniel prophesied for the finishing of the passion, and the accomplishment of the dispersion when Antichrist comes. In those days they shall know all these things. And from the time of the removal of the continuous sacrifice there are also reckoned one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Then) iniquity shall abound, as the Lord also says: "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

The interpretation by Hippolytus, (bishop) of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, taken in conjunction


11. "The abomination of desolation shall be given (set up)." Daniel speaks, therefore, of two abominations: the one of destruction, which Antiochus set up in its appointed time, and which bears a relation to that of desolation, and the other universal, when Antichrist shall come. For, as Daniel says, he too shall be set up for the destruction of many.

Scholia on Daniel, Chapter 12

62. The Lord also says, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand), then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains, and let him which is on the housetop not come down to take his clothes; neither let him which is in the field return back to take anything out of his house. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved." And Daniel says, "And they shall place the abomination of desolation a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand two hundred and ninety-five days."

63. And the blessed Apostle Paul, writing to the Thessalonians, says: "Now we beseech you, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together at it, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letters as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means; for (that day shall not come) except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth (will let), until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: (even him) whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." And Esaias says, "Let the wicked be cut off, that he behold not the glory of the Lord."

Treatise on Christ and Antichrist


Irenaeus testified about those who knew the apostle John face to face. It is easy to see the influence Irenaeus had on Hippolytus


1. And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: "Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God." The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped-that is, above every idol-for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.

2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be."

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXV


Still earlier we have the tesimony of Justin Martyr [a.d. 110-165.], who Irenaeus mentions also.


O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel...

Dialogue of Justin, Chapter CX


Then we have the Epistle of Barnabas. It is my understanding that this epistle almost made it into the NT. It was believed to be written by Barnabas of the Book of Acts.

The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, "For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance." And the prophet also speaks thus: "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings. In like manner Daniel says concerning the same, "And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and more savage than all the beasts of the earth, and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the great horns." Ye ought therefore to understand.

Chapter IV


And this ties nicely into the quote from the Didache VII, which is dated circa 80-90 AD. We have a nice succession of belief that 70 AD was not solely in the Apostolic interpretation of Jesus' comments in relation to the events surrounding the AofD. Good research Eschaton

[themuzicman]

What about Daniel 11?

[eschaton]

And this ties nicely into the quote from the Didache VII, which is dated circa 80-90 AD. We have a nice succession of belief that 70 AD was not solely in the Apostolic interpretation of Jesus' comments in relation to the events surrounding the AofD. Good research Eschaton

Yes. Thank you very much Bill.

[eschaton]

What about Daniel 11?

What about Daniel 11?

43. By the stretching forth of His two hands He signified His passion; and by mentioning "a time, and times, and an half, when the dispersion is accomplished," He indicated the three years and a half of Antichrist. For by "a time" He means a year, and by "times" two years, and by an "half time" half a year. These are the thousand two hundred and ninety days of which Daniel prophesied for the finishing of the passion, and the accomplishment of the dispersion when Antichrist comes. In those days they shall know all these things. And from the time of the removal of the continuous sacrifice there are also reckoned one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Then) iniquity shall abound, as the Lord also says: "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

Daniel 11 and 12 are tied together. Hippolytus gives us an interpretation.

[HerodionRomulus]

3 1/2 years is also the time span between the desecration by the Selucids and the re-consecration by the Maccabees.