Dispensationalism, Not Hyper-Dispensationalism

[RevSteve45]

Greetings To All In The Name of Jesus!

Let me say, first of all, that I am a Dispensationalist. In other words, I believe that in various periods of time, God dealt with man according to specific requirements, or tests. For instance, today, God is no longer requiring me not to eat from a certain tree, as He did Adam & Eve.

However, I am not an Ultra-Dispensationalist, as some people appear to be. In other words, I do not believe that the Gospel that the early apostles preached, was substantially different from the Gospel that Paul preached. Nor do I believe that the Body of Christ began with the conversion of Paul. I believe that ALL of the Epistles are in fact addressed to ALL members of the Body of Christ.

I. Dispensation Of Innocence (Genesis 2:16-3:20)

Requirement: Adam & Eve were commanded not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge Of Good & Evil. If they did so, they would die (spiritually, Gen. 2:16-17).

Favorable Beginning: Everything was perfect, sinless, and under man's dominion, with only one command to obey (Gen. 2:17).

Purpose Of God: To see if man would remain innocent and be true to His trust under the most favorable and perfect conditions (Gen. 2:16-17).

Failure of Man: Eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good & evil, and gave it to her husband, who also ate. Their eyes were opened, not only to the INTELLECTUAL knowledge of good & evil (as God has), but an EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of good & evil as well, by committing evil, in disobeying God's command.

Judgment By God: Because of his sin, man reaped sickness, pain, sorrow, misery, condemnation, death, and loss of his soul. He "gained" fellowship & union with Satan and demons, an inferior position, power to do evil and be evil, a life of self-gratification, unclean lusts and habits, unbelief, separation from God, hardship, sufferings, hell, eternal damnation, and other curses too numerous to mention. He became depraved (Romans 1), darkened (eph. 4:18), blind in mind (2 Cor. 4:4), defiled in conscience (Heb. 10:22, obstinate and rebellious (Isa. 28:14, Romans 8:1-13), lustful (Eph. 2:1-3), evil continually (Gen. 6:5), full of abominations (Jer. 17:9, Mark 7: 19-21, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Gal. 5:19-21, Col. 3:5-10) and lost, thus making all his offspring, with all their faculties, constituted sinful by nature (Romans 5:12-21, Eph. 2:1-3) and children of the devil by choice and practice (John 8:44, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:1-3, 1 John 3:8-10)

Promise Of Redemption: God promised the Seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15), who would bruise the serpents head, even though the serpent would bruise His heel. This was the first promise of the coming Messiah.

II. Dispensation Of Conscience (Genesis 3:21-8:14)

Requirement: Human beings were tested to see if they would obey their own conscince regarding right and wrong (Gen. 3:22; 4:7, 15; 6:1-7). According to Gen. 3:21, God made Adam & Eve "coats of skins," and He may have shown them at this time how to make an animal sacrifice to worship God. In Chapter 4, both Cain & Abel know how to offer sacrifices, so they had probably learned from their parents.

Length: 1, 656 years, from Adam's Fall to the 600th year of Noah (Gen. 5:1-29; 7:6, 11).

Favorable Beginning: A new beginning altogether, with humanity having a knowledge of God and how to worship Him.

Purpose of God: The purpose of God, now that man knew good and evil, was to guide mankind in the proper exercise of his conscience to do the right, and to refuse the wrong.

Failure Of Man: Adam failed (Gen. 6:3), as did Cain (Gen. 4:1-16), the descendants of Cain (Gen. 4:17-24), the descendants of Seth(Jude 14), the daughters of men (Gen. 6:1-7), and mankind in general (Gen. 6:5-6). In the whole dispensation we DEFINITELY know of only 10 people who walked faithfully with the Lord: Abel, Enoch, and Noah and his family. It may well be that others walked with God as well, judging by their names. However, this is by no means certain.

Judgment of God: God sent the Flood, to destroy all human life on the planet, except for 8 souls, and all animals except those preserved by the Ark (Gen. 6:8-8:14; Matt. 24:37-39; 1 Pet. 3:18-21).

Promise Of Redemption: God showed grace & mercy to mankind, by giving him another chance to continue to participate in God's eternal plan of redemptrion on the earth (Gen. 6:8-22; 7:1; 1 Pet. 3:18-21). By preserving 7 times as many clean animals as unclean, mankind could continue to offer up sacrifices to God, thereby showing faith in God's promise of an eventual Redeemer (Gen. 7:2; 8:20-22). People were saved by grace through faith in the coming Redeemer, as we are now saved by grace through faith in the Redeemer who has already come (Eph. 2:8-9).

I will continue on the various dispensations in my next post.

In His Service,
Steve

[RevSteve45]

III. Dispensation Of Human Government (Gen. 8:15-11:32)

Requirements: After the Flood, God gives His first commandments to mankind, since Adam:

1. Be fruitful, multiply & replenish the earth (Gen. 9:1, 7).
2. Rule over animals (Gen. 9:2)
3. Eating animals is now permitted, instead of plants only. (Gen. 9:3)
4. Eating animals with the blood still in them is forbidden (Gen. 9:4).
5. Murder is forbidden (Gen. 9:6).
6. Capital punishment commanded for murderers (Gen. 9:6).
7. God establishes a covenant never again to destroy the Earth by water (Gen. 9:8-17)

Length: From Noah's Flood to the Call of Abraham at 75 years old, 427 years.

Favorable Beginning: Mankind had a new beginning, with people who loved God, had rich experience & wisdom, true worship of God, new laws, a new covenant, promises of blessing, dominion over the earth, and responsibility to rule himself.

Purpose Of God: To test man under a new standard of conduct. Mankind had failed to keep one command of God. He had failed to follow his conscience in chosing right & rejecting wrong. Now God is instituting governments of men, to enforce the right & punish the wrong.

Failure Of Man: Mankind built the Tower Of Babel, attempting to reach Heaven, and refusing to spread across the Earth, as God had commanded.

Judgment of God: God destroyed the Tower of Babel and confused their languages, so that mankind had no choice but to scatter across the Earth. He also divided the continents, to make it impossible for mankind to attempt this again.

Promise Of Redemption: As He promised, God did not destroy mankind, but permitted salvation to be by grace, through faith in the coming Redeemer.

IV. Dispensation Of Promise (Gen. 12:1-Exodus 12:37)

Requirement: For Abraham and his seed, the requirement was to have faith in God, obey Him, remain segregated from all other nmations, and evangelize the world.

Length: From the call of Abraham at 75 years old to the Exodus: 430 years.

Favorable Beginning: God now began to deal with one special family of the human race, Abraham and his descendants, in the fulfillment of His plan. Not only did God promise that the M<essiah would come from his line, but that the Promised Land would be given to his descendants eternally, as a base for missionary and government operations. (Gen. 12:1-3, 7, 13, 14-18; 15:13-21; 17:1-21) God also promised that revelation would come through Abraham's descendants (Gen. 12:1-3; 15:13-21; 17:1-21; Romans 3:1-2; 4:1-25; 9:4-5; Gal. 3:8, Heb. 11:8-19)

Purpose Of God: To choose one man through whom Messiah would come, to use him & his seed as His represenatives on the earth, and to give them Canaan as a base of operations for the plan of God to be carried out. It was also God's purpose to show the heathen, through Abraham, the differences between serving God, and serving all other gods.

Failure Of Man: Abraham failed God in bringing his father Terah with him (Gen. 11:31-32); in going down to Egypt during a famine and telling Sara to lie (Gen. 12:10-20);in going in to lie with Hagar to have a son (Gen. 16:1-16); deceiving Abimelech concerning Sara (Gen. 20:1-18).

Isaac failed God in lying to Abimelech about his wife (Gen. 26:6-35); in seeking to give the blessing to Esau instead of Jacob (Gen. 27:1-4).

Jacob failed God in deceiving Esau to sell him the birthright (Gen. 25:27-34); in deceiving Isaac into giving him the blessing (Gen. 27:1-33); in loving Joseph more than all of his other sons, thus helping to incite jealousy (Gen. 37:3).

The sons of Jacob failed God in selling Joseph into slavery (Gen. 37:4-6); in Judah going into a prostitute (Gen. 38:1-30).

Israel failed God after the death of Jacob and his sons in fighting with one another (Exodus 2:11-14); and in despising Moses & Aaron (Exodus 5:21).

Judgment Of God: The judgment upon Israel was bondage in Egypt for 400 years. This was the beginning of oppression by Gentiles to be carried n eventualy by 8 world kingdoms. Even so, God judged Egypt for their harsh treatment of the Jews, by the 10 plagues.

Promise of Redemption: Israel had the gospel (Gal. 3:8; Hebrews 4:2) and the typical programs of sacrifices, which, in shadow, taught them about redemption through the promised Messiah. (Exodus 12; 25:1-40; Lev. 1:1-10, 20; 23:1-44)

[RevSteve45]

V. Dispensation Of Law (Exodus 12:38-John 20:20)

Requirements: To obey the Laws passed down to Moses on Mount Sinai perfectly, in every detail. When a person FAILED to keep the Law perfectly in every detail (as inevitably happened), he/she was to offer the proper sacrifices for sin, which typified the coming Messiah.

Length: From the Exodus from Egypt to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1,721 years.

Note: Although the Law was not OFFICIALLY ended until the Crucifixion & Resurrection of Jesus:

Col 2:14, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (KJV)

The ministries of John the Baptist & Jesus, during the last 3 years or so of the Law, were nevertheless PREPARING their listeners for the Kingdom of God, which was presented first to the Jews, who for the most part rejected it, then to the Gentiles as WELL as to the Jews. Although John & Jesus preached under Law, it is primarily the SPIRIT of the Law which they are addressing, as they prepare their hearers for the Law of God that will be written upon the hearts of those who trust in Jesus. After His Resurrection, Jesus says no more about keeping the Law. The early apostles seem to assume that, as good Jews, they are to continue to keep the Law, and encourage their fellow Jews to do the same.

However, when Gentiles first begin to be converted under Paul's ministry, the question of keeping the Law comes up. The apostles decide NOT to ask the new Gentile converts to keep the Law.

Favorable Beginning: Not since the fall of man, had any people experienced a more favorable beginning than Israel at the foot of Mt. Sinai. The saw the power of God in signs in wonders in Egypt and the wilderness. He made personal appearances to them (Exodus 24:9-11; Joshua 5:13-15), and spoke with an audible voice (Deut. 5:22-24). There were visible manifestations of His presence by day and by night (Exodus 14:19-21). God took sickness from Israel (Exodus 15:26; 23:25; Psalm 103:3; 107:20), gave them the riches of Egypt (Exodus 12:35; Psalm 105:37), gave them revelations and a complete code of laws, made covenants with them, and gave them the gospel (Gal. 3:8; Hebrews 4:2).

Purpose of God: To test Israel to see if they would obey Him, to begin a commonwealth of nations headed by Israel and governed by men of His own choice. To establish a visible system of worship that would picture the coming truths of redemption in every detail. To bring about the complete destruction of the Nephilim by the sword of Israel, so the Messiah would be born into the world of pure Adamite blood. To give Israel His complete revelation for the whole human race, which, according to His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, would make them a blessing to all nations.

Failure Of Man: Israel failed God in the wilderness; under Joshua & the various judges; under the various kings, the majority of whom were wicked; almost total idolatry in the Northern Kingdom, and only surface revivals in Judah, led to both kingdoms being taken into captivity. Failure even in the Babylonian captivity ((Ezek. 2:3-3:9; Jer. 1:1-22:30). Failure when they returned from captivity (Ezra 10; Neh. 13; Haggai 1; Mal. 1:1-4:6). Finally, failure in rejecting even theire own Messiah and the Gospel (Matt. 5:20; 6:1-18; 11:20-27; 12:22-30; 15:1-20; 16:1-12; 23:1-39; 26:57-27:66; John 5; Acts 2:11-38; 3:1-5; 6:8-8:3; 9:1-9; 12:1-19; 13:41-52; 22:1-28:24).

Judgment of God: Judgment of the sins of Israel and of the whole world in the Cross of Christ (John 12:27-33; 19:16-30; Acts 2:36; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 2:14-17; 1 Peter 2:24). The judgment on Israel as a nation, was that the Kingdom of God was taken from them (Matt. 21:33-46)

Matt 21:43, Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (KJV)

The nation was rejected to be desolate until the Second Coming of Christ:

Matt 23:37-39, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(KJV)

It was completely destroyed in 70 A.D., with the survivors being scattered among the various nations of the world (Luke 21:20-24; Deut. 28; Lev. 26).

Promise Of Redemption: In the Cross, God provided the true source of redemption (1 Cor. 1:18-24; Col. 1:12-20; 2:14-17; 1 Pet. 2:24). Up until this time men offered sacrifices of animals as a picture of the true sacrifice at Calvary (Hebrews 8-10). God sent His Son to take the place of all men in death, so that they might be fully redeemed, reconciled, and restored to the original dominion (Psalm 8; Gal. 3:13; Eph. 2:11-18; Hebrews 2:9-18; 1 Peter 1:18-23)

VI. Dispensation Of Grace (John 20:21-Rev. 19:21)

Requirements: Obedience to the faith of the Gospel in all of its teachings (Mark 16:16; John 3:16; Romans 1:5, 16; 16:26; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:5-8)

Length: From the Resurrection of Jesus His Second Coming: At least 1,977 years.

Favorable Beginning: Satan was defeated upon the Cross and made powerless to overcome any believer who would put on the whole armor of God (Eph. 6:10-18) and resist him (Eph. 4:27; James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:7-9). In this dispensation, no distinction is made between Jew and Gentile, male or female (Acts 2:16-21; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11). Furthermore, the Kingdom of God was prepared for with ministries of power: that of Christ, John the Baptist, the apostles, and other men began to perform miracles, as recorded in the Gospels and Acts. The preparation for the Kingdom of God began with complete grace (John 1:16-17), promises of the fulness of the Spirit (John 7:37-39), and a full commission to represent God and do the works of Christ (Matt. 16:15-20; John 14:12). There is now no limitation to the believer regarding what he wants from God according to the promises. Everyone is privileged to receive according to his/her faith (Matt. 8:13; 9:29; 17:20; 21:21-22; Mark 11:22-24; John 14:12-15; 15:7, 16; Hebrews 11:6; 1 John 3:21-22; 5:13-14).

Purpose Of God: In this dispensation, God's purpose is to save all who would believe, to call out a people for His name, and to build His Church (John 3:16; Acts 15:13-18; 1 Cor. 1:18-24; 12:12-31; Eph. 2:14-22; 4:7-16; 5:25-32; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; rev. 22:17).

Failure Of Man:

1. The failure of Israel is clearly seen in their rejection of John, Jesus, and the apostles, in the crucifixion of their Messiah, and in persecuting the early Church. The Gospel went first to Israel (Matt. 10:5-6), but they would not obey, so it was taken from them and given to the Gentiles (Romans 11).

2. The failure Of the Early Church is seen in Acts 5 & 6 as Annanias & Sapphira lie to the Holy Spirit and are judged by God for it, and divisions arise, which necessitate the office of deacon being created. It is also seen in Acts 15 with the necessity for the Jerusalem Council. All of the epistles reveal divisions, strifes, heresies, unclean living, false leaders, and other evidences of backsliding and fallacy (1 Cor. 1:3; 5:11; Gal. 3; 5; Eph. 4; Col. 3; 2 Pet. 2; Jude 3; Rev. 2-3).

3. The failure of the post-apostolic Church is seen, as instead of evangelizing the world, living holy, preaching the full truth, or being one as Christ had prayed in John 17:21-23, they fall deeply into apostasy. The church entered the dark ages when popes and bishops lorded it over civil rulers and murdered millions who would not conform to organized religion. A Reformation finally took place, and Christianity has now been revivedin part, as in the New Testament, but Christianity as a whole is still a long ways from as it is described in the NT.

Judgment of God: Israel, because of their unbelief, has been ct off as a nation, even though thousands of individual Jews still get saved through trusting in Jesus today. They will not begin to be saved again as a nation until the Tribulation, when 144,000 will be saved. Those people who have heard the Gospel and rejected it, God will send a strong delusion (2 Thess. 2:8-12), while the saints are raptured (1 Thess. 4:13-18). The Tribulation will be a time of great judgment & sorrow upon those who remain.

Promise Of Redemption: The promise of redemption for this period and in every other period, is in fact the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ. Men in previous dispensations looked FORWARD to this promise by faith, just as we look BACK on the FULFILLMENT of the promise, by faith.

In His Service,
Steve

[RevSteve45]

VII. Dispensation Of Divine Government (Millenium) (Rev. 20:1-15)

Requirements: To obey Christ and those who He rules with, civil & religious laws of the Kingdom, and conform to the will of God, in the absence of Satan. (Psalm 2; Isaiah 2:2-4; Zechariah 14:11-21; Rev. 5:10; 11:15; 20:1-10).

Length: From The Second Coming of Vhrist to the Great White Throne Judgment, 1,000 years.

Favorable Beginning: For the first time since Adam submitted to Lucifer, his fallen angels & demons, man will be free from them, and have perfect conditions on earth in every respect as before the Fall, except that he wil still be subject to death for one thing: committing any sin that carries the death penalty. Human natural and depraved instincts, tendencies and lusts will still be a part of man's nature, but his opportunities for overcoming them will be greater as well, because there will be no satanic power or influence, no sickness or disease, pain or other bodily disorders. Christ and resurrected saints will be reigning over the coming generations from the beginning of the Millenium & forever.

Purpose of God: To put down rebellion on earth, to fulfill the everlasting covenants of the past, vindicate and avenge Christ and the saints, exalt resurrected saints of all ages to a kingly and priestly position, to judge the nations in righteousness and restore the earth to its rightful owners, restore Israel as the head of all nations, and to put all enemies under the feet of Christ so as to bring back the perfect conditions that existed before the fall of Adam.

Failure Of Man: As in all previous dispensations, there will be some people who will not choose God or righteousness, despite the absence of Satan & all his power. At the end of the Millenium, multitudes will follow Satan when he is released from the Abyss, and join him in his final rebellion against God, resulting in the Battle of Gog & Magog (Rev. 20:7-10).

Judgment of God: Fire will come down from God out of Heaven and devour Satan & his armies. Thus, God will bring to an end the rebellion of Lucifer & his angels, demons, and all of mankind that made their alliance with him. They will all be cast into the Lake of Fire, Satan & his angels included (Rev. 20:10-15; 21:8).

VIII. New Heavens & New Earth (Rev. 21:1-22:21)

Requirements: There will be no further need for God to test the obedience of mankind. All in the eternal ruling class: the elect and faithful angels and men; will have been purged of all possibility of falling. They will be obedient to God's laws and will, and will be absolutely and completely trusted by God to help Him administer the affairs of all Creation (Eph. 2:7; 3:11; Rev. 21-22).

Length: Eternal

Purpose of God: To be all in all again, as before the Fall (1 cor. 15:24-28; Eph. 1:10), and to carry out His eternal plan of havinf creations and kingdoms which are willingly subject to Him and consecrated to the same end that He Himself is consecrated to, which is the highest good of being for all in the universe.

Failure Of Man: There will be no failure throughout eternity with elect angels and resurrected saints, or with elect natural men who will be carrying out their part of the program as natural people in the eternal purpose of God as the plan was before the Fall. The Fall did not do away with God's plan, it only postponed it until the restitution of all things in the new earth (Acts 3:21; Rev. 21-22).

Judgment of God: There will be no judgment for sin again, for all wil be righteous and holy.

Rev 22:3-5, And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. (KJV)

In His Service,
Steve

[Bill the Cat]

Rev :thumb: Fantastic. Can I link to this thread in my defense of Dispensationalism in the eschatology wrestlefest...???

[Solly]

Rev, we don't allow back to back postings; one should try to say all one needs to in the 24000 characters generously allowed.

This time, I'll let you go, but I'll be watching you.

Sidles away, putting his colt .45 back into its holster

[RevSteve45]

Bill The Cat,

Sure, go right ahead!

In His Service,
Steve

[TedO]

Today @ 03:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=156988#post156988)
RevSteve45:

VII. Dispensation Of Divine Government (Millenium) (Rev. 20:1-15)

Failure Of Man: As in all previous dispensations, there will be some people who will not choose God or righteousness, despite the absence of Satan &amp; all his power. At the end of the Millenium, multitudes will follow Satan when he is released from the Abyss, and join him in his final rebellion against God, resulting in the Battle of Gog &amp; Magog (Rev. 20:7-10).

Hi Steve,

A question that I have. If you place the resurrection of 1 Cor 15:52-56 as Rev 20:4 - how can incorruptible immortal christians be deceived and led to destruction?

Ted

[Bill the Cat]

It will be those who survived the Great Tribulation and their children who are deceived. In 1000 years, how many people will be born? We have to rule over someone... :bunny:

[TedO]

Paul's description shows that the wicked will be destroyed at Jesus coming.

2Th 1:6 For after all it is {only} just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and {to give} relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2Th 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

:egad: I don't think there will be any survivors...

[RevSteve45]

A question that I have. If you place the resurrection of 1 Cor 15:52-56 as Rev 20:4 - how can incorruptible immortal christians be deceived and led to destruction?Ted

Ted,

I do not believe that those who have been resurrected and have immortal bodies, can be deceived and rebel against God. Those people will not be subsceptible to the tempations of Satan or the flesh any more. Their flesh is no longer weak & corruptible, nor do they havce a sin nature any more.

However, it appears there will still be naturally born persons in the Millenium, who neither bowed down to the Anbtichrist, nor worshipped him or his image, nor have they received his mark. These people will be permitted to enter the Millenium, based upon their treatment of God's people:

Matt 25:31-46, When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)

Then, too, there will be many people left upon the Earth who have not even heard that Christ has come to rule upon the Earth:

Isa 2:2-4, And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (KJV)

Isa 66:19-21, And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. (KJV)

Zech 8:23, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. (KJV)

So then, one of the jobs of us priests & kings in the Millenium, will be to spread the good news of the Return & Reign of Christ, and to tell people of His laws. It will be their choice, whether or not to believe upon Him, or not. If not, then their subjection to the laws of Christ will be because they have liittle choice. These types of people will WELCOME the pportunity to rebel against His rule.

In His Service,
Steve

[RevSteve45]

Ted,

You don't think there will be ANY survivors on the entire EARTH, after Armageddon? Are you crazy??

Let's look at the numbers. The present population of Earth is 4-5 Billion people. Let us be optimistic, and say that 1 Billion go in the Rapture. That leaves 4 billion. Now, let us say that ANOTHER 1 billion people die of the various plagues in Revelation Or if you want to be REAL pessimistic, let's say 2 billion die. Do you REALY think the REMAINING 2 billion are ALL going to come to Armageddon to fight with Antichrist? People in South America & North America & South Africa are ALL going to empty their continents, just to say, "Gee! Let's travel to Israel to fight Jesus! Or to kill Jews! Whatever!"??

Or do you think after Armageddon, God is going to take a worldwide tour, killing unbelievers wherever He finds them? If so, what kind of God do you serve, Ted? MY God is a God who is merciful.

In His Service,
Steve

[TedO]

Sheep and the goats is talking final judgement (Matt 25:41/Rev 20:14). The final status is eternal (Matt 25:46).

As I posted above, I don't think any wicked will survive Jesus physical coming.

The O.T. passages which some place in the millenium could easily be allegorical of the current church age (last days = now, Acts 2:17, Heb 1:2) or of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21).

________________
In response to second response.

Hey Steve, let's stick to the scriptures O.K.? I surely think we both sincerely want to serve the one true God right? :yes:

Is not the God of 2 Thes 1 merciful? Yet it says he "will pay the penalty of eternal destruction" to those "who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus".

You make it sound like for God to destroy the wicked on the day of his coming would be unmerciful, yet that is what will happen. Perhaps you put this day off for 1000 years, what is the difference?

(edited so I didn't violate back to back rule)

[Jacob]

Today @ 02:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=157377#post157377)
TedO:
As I posted above, I don't think any wicked will survive Jesus physical coming.



Do you believe in a literal 7 year "tribulation" period before the millenium? If so, do you think that no-one will come to Christ during this time?

I think that all unbelievers may be taken into judgement, but those who come to Christ during this time will transition into the Millennium, providing for a growing population consisting of non-glorified humans...


Jacob

[TedO]

Before this year I would have described my eschatology as a 3-1/2 year post-tribulation pre-millenial 2nd coming.

:idea: I am leaning now toward a preterist, post-millenial position.

But regardless, I see no place in scripture for provisional entry into God's kingdom - not through purgatory :pray: or the tribulation.

[Jaltus]

RevSteve45,

Please stop posting back-to-back unless you are in fact addressing different posters. The next time you post back-to-back, the second post will be deleted.

I recommend you reaquaint yourself with the rules (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/view.php?pg=decorum) of the forum.

Note especially this one (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/view.php?pg=decorum#postlength):


The maximum post length is 24K characters. Please keep the points concise. Please limit the number of major points made in a debate/discussion to 1 or 2 per post max as this encourages discourse. Rebuttal posts get undesirably lengthy when addressing many points. Additionally, please allow the other person to respond to your post before making additional substantive posts and points directed towards that person. Multiple posts back-to-back responses to a single poster is not allowed. There are progress bars below the reply boxes to assist you. When making a reply or referring to multiple replies please make use of the Link, Quote and Multi-Quote features. Breaking of posts or multiple posts to post an article is not allowed, if you wish to post an article or such that will exceed the post limit please contact a moderator to get your article posted in the appropriate Bulletin Board section where you may then make a link to in the thread you wish to create for discussion regarding the article. Discussion will not take place in the Bulletin Board sections only articles are posted there. Discussion will take place in the proper forum for the context of the article. If you need assistance with this please do not hesitate to contact a moderator or administrator about this.

[RevSteve45]

Ted,

Ok, Let's stick to Scripture. What Scripture is it again that says that every person on Earth will be fighting in Armageddon again? Or where does it say God will be taking human life during this period OUTSIDE of the battle of Armageddon & the plagues of the Tribulation?

My point is this, Ted: When God takes human life, it is generaly in war, as at Armageddon, or in judgment, as during the Tribulation. He does not just outright slaughter human beings.

Just so you you know, I see no evidence that the Tribulation will be wprldwide. It see,s to affect those areas which were occupied by the empires that oppressed Israel. That is why you get all of the "one-third" or "one-fourth" part of the earth being damaged during the Tribulation.

In His Service,
Steve

[TedO]

Steve,

I agree with you about Armageddon not being total destruction, but I do not see it as future - but already fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. (I know we won't agree on this point, so let's look elsewhere.)

What I do see is that the second coming is generally always linked to the resurrection and judgement.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jesus parables of the wheat and the Tares (Matt 13:40), the sheep and the goats (Matt 25:45).

Paul:
2Th 1:6 For after all it is {only} just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and {to give} relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2Th 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

Peter:
2Pe 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But do not let this one {fact} escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

I just don't see a secret coming/rapture :shy:, an earthly coming coming without judgement, and then a final coming in judgement :flaming: (which a pre-trib rapture position may see). I see a final coming in consummation.

What do you think I am missing?

[Bill the Cat]

Ted, maybe I can offer a bit. In Psalms and Rev. it says during the Millenium Reign, Jesus will rule with an iron rod. That is very strong authority over those who are not His elect:


Psa 2:8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
Psa 2:9 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"


which is quoted in

Rev 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.


This happens right before the binding of Satan and the innauguration of the millenium.

A rod of iron is for strong severe rule.


Psa 2:9 - His enemies shall be subject to His terrible power (Job_4:9; 2Th_2:8), as His people to His grace (Psa_110:2-3).

rod of iron--denotes severity (Rev_2:27).

a potter's vessel--when shivered cannot be mended, which will describe utter destruction.
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible


This is not the condition we live in. We are in a state of grace and longsuffering. God still pours out His love and grace on everyone, so that some may come to know Him. He does not rule His enemies with an iron rod right now...

[TedO]

BTC, this is a good train of thought - I think I'll hop on. :joy:

Consider this portion of Dee Dee's post from the Wrestefest:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&postid=156165#post156165


You see Paul has stated that the glorification and reign of Christ was in the heavens (this argument will reappear frequently)…

Ephesians 1:20-21 - …. which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Taking the presuppositions of premill futurism as true for the sake of argument, this passage is impossible to reconcile. If we assume that we are not in “the age to come” of this passage, then such “age to come” must be the “Millennium.” By this rendering we are still a part of “this age” as referenced in this passage. Paul describes the reign of Christ in the age in which Paul was living, and in which premill futurism holds that we are still living. It is a heavenly reign with Christ seated in the heavenlies not on the earth. It is a reign at the actual right hand of the Father. However…. And this is what futurism cannot explain, Paul says that the nature and location of Christ’s reign continues through the age to come. So, even taking futuristic suppositions as true for the sake of argument, Paul has stated that Christ will continue to rule from heaven, from the Father’s right hand, throughout the “age to come” making a physical rule from physical Jerusalem impossible.

This comports with the reference to Psalm 110 which arguably is the most important OT passage to the NT authors being more referenced or alluded to than any other. Psalm 110 says that Christ is to sit at the right hand of the Father (He is fixed there) UNTIL His enemies are made His footstool. Now since this already happened judicially at the Cross, this is not what is being referred to here as the author of Hebrews tells us that the actual and practical subduing of Christ’s enemies is what is being referred to (Hebrews 2:8). He will have no active enemies after that point.

The rule of Christ takes place entirely at the right hand.. There is no room for Him to come down to earth… all enemies are vanquished while He is in heaven which dovetails perfectly with

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 – 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 – [I] But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.


Also consider Psalm 2:6-12
Psa 2:6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
Psa 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
Psa 2:8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the {very} ends of the earth as Your possession.
Psa 2:9 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "
Psa 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish {in} the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!
You are right, BTC, that Christ has not yet broken the nations with his iron rod. But we see the Son, the King (Christ) installed, which Eph 1:20-21 shows occurred after the resurrection. And we are now in the intervening time when those on the earth either take instruction from the Son (v10-12a) or will encounter his wrath - the judgement at the end of the age. This occurs at 2nd coming, when the resurrection and judgement happen.

I've got to say that this scenario fits more smoothly than the post 2nd coming millenium, which seems to just be a purposeless interlude, a waiting period before final judgment in which Jesus and glorified Christians run around on the earth ruling over nobody (unless you assume that unbeleivers can pass through Jesus 2nd coming without being destroyed - don't see it - or there are people being born who need to get saved - don't see that either). Then there is this second great battle (in which these mysteriously deceived multitudes appear) at Jesus second second coming before he finally brings judgment upon the wicked. :doh:

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 10:55 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=157955#post157955)
TedO:

BTC, this is a good train of thought - I think I'll hop on. :joy:

Consider this portion of Dee Dee's post from the Wrestefest:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&amp;postid=156165#post156165

Yeah, I read this part, which I really don't agree with. The connections she sees, I do not. I will go into the specifics in my look at the OT and the NT stuff.

I'll pass on the Psalms reference as we see it from 2 different angles.


I've got to say that this scenario fits more smoothly than the post 2nd coming millenium, which seems to just be a purposeless interlude, a waiting period before final judgment in which Jesus and glorified Christians run around on the earth ruling over nobody (unless you assume that unbeleivers can pass through Jesus 2nd coming without being destroyed - don't see it - or there are people being born who need to get saved - don't see that either). Then there is this second great battle (in which these mysteriously deceived multitudes appear) at Jesus second second coming before he finally brings judgment upon the wicked. :doh:

OK, do you consider Jesus' visit to Paul a "coming"? Neither do I because His feet never hit the Earth. Remember what the Angel said in Acts...

Act 1:11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."


Was that not true? Jesus moved locations from the Earth to Heaven, and the Angel said He will come back in the same way, from Heaven to Earth. Preterists can't answer this and stay true to the "Heavenly Reign Only" slant.

[TedO]

Today @ 05:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=158039#post158039)
Bill the Cat:
Act 1:11 They also said, &quot;Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.&quot;


Was that not true? Jesus moved locations from the Earth to Heaven, and the Angel said He will come back in the same way, from Heaven to Earth. Preterists can't answer this and stay true to the &quot;Heavenly Reign Only&quot; slant.

Sure, I think is what Dan 12:2, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16-17, 2 Th 2:1, and Rev 20:13 refer to.

[Bill the Cat]

Act 1:11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Was that not true? Jesus moved locations from the Earth to Heaven, and the Angel said He will come back in the same way, from Heaven to Earth. Preterists can't answer this and stay true to the "Heavenly Reign Only" slant.



Sure, I think is what Dan 12:2, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:16-17, 2 Th 2:1, and Rev 20:13 refer to.

Dan 12:2 referrs to the final resurrection. More in a min on that.

1 Cor 15:52 refers to the rapture (harpazo) of the church.

1 Th 4:16-17 refers to the (harpazo) and notice in 17 it says we meet Him IN THE AIR, not on the ground. More later.

Rev 20:13 is after the Millenium.(Rev 20:11) Rev 20:12 says John saw the DEAD standing before the Great White throne, where are those who were "changed" (1 Th 4:17)(1 Cor 15:52). Those in Christ already came to life in the first resurrection before the 1000 years. (Rev 20:4) and were given thrones (Rev 20:4) Those in Rev 20:4 are not described in Dan 12:2, but those in Rev 20:12 are. Notice it only describes the dead in both casesRev 20:12 & Dan 12:2, not those who "came alive" in Rev 20:4

Notice in the first resurrection of Rev 20:4 (the dead in Christ) All who are resurrected are given thrones We are included here too as those who remain( 1 Th 4:17)(1 Cor 15:52). But the resurrection of Rev 20:12, only some are damned and some are given life. (Rev 20:15) (Dan 12:2)


Blessings and thanks for the conversation...

[TedO]

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I hope you don't mean that "some to everlasting life" refers to non-believers somehow making the grade? :hrm:

Or do you think this refers to some that got saved during the tribulation but died during the tribulation/millenium? :doh:

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 02:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=158127#post158127)
TedO:

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I hope you don't mean that &quot;some to everlasting life&quot; refers to non-believers somehow making the grade? :hrm:

Or do you think this refers to some that got saved during the tribulation but died during the tribulation/millenium? :doh:

1) no

2) yes. Who else? Remember the context of 20:4 those have already been judged and given a throne. Dan 12:2 says MANY (Hebrew rab) who slept in the dust, not all (Hebrew kôl / kôl).

[TedO]

We've come full circle - back to my original question. I don't see how there are any non-Christians around after Jesus returns, they will be destroyed according to 2 Thes 1 and others ...http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&postid=157902#post157902

Oh well, it's been interesting, and the rod of iron thread really spurred some thoughts for me.

The important thing - the rule of Christ will continue to increase until its ultimate fulfillment. No setbacks. Let us continue to do the work of the Lord, knowing that our work is not in vain. 1 Cor 15:58.

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 02:28 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=158145#post158145)
TedO:

We've come full circle - back to my original question. I don't see how there are any non-Christians around after Jesus returns, they will be destroyed according to 2 Thes 1 and others ...http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?action=showthread&amp;postid=157902#post157902


So who do we rule over? And who does Satan deceive? (Rev 20:7-8) Also notice Rev 20:9. These secular nations and armies encompass the camp of the saints (This can't be in Heaven because 20:9 says fire came DOWN from God) and seek to destroy them. This is after the 1000 years. So who are these people? Also remember this is after the First Resurrection, which is literal, as it is in all other cases of the word.


Oh well, it's been interesting, and the rod of iron thread really spurred some thoughts for me.

The important thing - the rule of Christ will continue to increase until its ultimate fulfillment. No setbacks. Let us continue to do the work of the Lord, knowing that our work is not in vain. 1 Cor 15:58.

Agreed and thanks for the words of encouragement. I've got some new direction for the 'fest. God bless you in your quest to know Him more... I pray you do the same for me...

[TedO]

So who do we rule over? And who does Satan deceive? (Rev 20:7-8) Also notice Rev 20:9. These secular nations and armies encompass the camp of the saints (This can't be in Heaven because 20:9 says fire came DOWN from God) and seek to destroy them. This is after the 1000 years. So who are these people? Also remember this is after the First Resurrection, which is literal, as it is in all other cases of the word.

Well, IF we can say that Rev 20:4 is speaking figuratively of our rebirth from spiritual death (and that is a good question...I haven't gotten to look at that yet) then I can see the preterist position of the "1000 years" being an extended period of time where the church is reigning with Christ as His kingdom expands throughout the earth. At the end of this period, Jesus comes back, destroys and judges the wicked, and ushers in the eternal New Jerusalem.


Agreed and thanks for the words of encouragement. I've got some new direction for the 'fest. God bless you in your quest to know Him more... I pray you do the same for me

Blessings back. Don't sparring partners get paid something :fight: ? Well, I hope I hit back a little better than the sides of beef in Rocky... :stars:

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 03:21 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=158197#post158197)
TedO:



Well, IF we can say that Rev 20:4 is speaking figuratively of our rebirth from spiritual death (and that is a good question...I haven't gotten to look at that yet) then I can see the preterist position of the &quot;1000 years&quot; being an extended period of time where the church is reigning with Christ as His kingdom expands throughout the earth. At the end of this period, Jesus comes back, destroys and judges the wicked, and ushers in the eternal New Jerusalem.

That's the entire dividing point. Figurative or actual... Ah well, we'll have to wait and see :yipee:




Blessings back. Don't sparring partners get paid something :fight: ? Well, I hope I hit back a little better than the sides of beef in Rocky... :stars:

You really gave me something to look at, specially for the fest. I need to make sure I cover all the possible angles, and not assume. Talk to you on another thread maybe?? :btc: :yipee:

[TedO]

:popcorn:

Sure thing. I'll be watching the action - I'll get back when (if) I get a settled view of Rev 20:4. :idea:

[RevSteve45]

Ted,

Regardless of your particular view of eschatology, the fact remains that, just before Satan is judged & cast into the Lake of Fire, he will lead a major rebellion on Earth, against the rule of God:

Rev 20:7-10, And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (KJV)

Notice, please:

1. Satan deceives the NATIONS, nations made up of human beings.

2. These nations are from all parts (four quarters) of the earth.

3. Their number is as the sands of the sea.

These must be natural men & women, for the resurrected saints will not be subject to temptation. Our bodies will be glorified, and without a sin nature. Obviously, these naturally born men & women come from somewhere.

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

VIII. New Heavens & New Earth (Rev. 21:1-22:21)

Requirements: There will be no further need for God to test the obedience of mankind. All in the eternal ruling class: the elect and faithful angels and men; will have been purged of all possibility of falling. They will be obedient to God's laws and will, and will be absolutely and completely trusted by God to help Him administer the affairs of all Creation (Eph. 2:7; 3:11; Rev. 21-22).


Hmmmmmm




Isa 65:17-20
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
(KJV)

Seems Izzy has a different view. More closely aligned with the writer of Hebrews than Cyrus..

take care

Hitch

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 02:37 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=157915#post157915)
Bill the Cat:

Ted, maybe I can offer a bit. In Psalms and Rev. it says during the Millenium Reign, Jesus will rule with an iron rod. That is very strong authority over those who are not His elect: 'Strong authority' ??? Gee Cat Jesus alraedy has ALL authoirity;


VIII. New Heavens & New Earth (Rev. 21:1-22:21)

Requirements: There will be no further need for God to test the obedience of mankind. All in the eternal ruling class: the elect and faithful angels and men; will have been purged of all possibility of falling. They will be obedient to God's laws and will, and will be absolutely and completely trusted by God to help Him administer the affairs of all Creation (Eph. 2:7; 3:11; Rev. 21-22). Isa 65:17-20
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
(KJV)

Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(KJV)

That seems to fit your definition.



Psa 2:8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
Psa 2:9 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'&quot;
Didnt you notice the command in Matt 19?




which is quoted in

Rev 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.


This happens right before the binding of Satan and the innauguration of the millenium.

A rod of iron is for strong severe rule.


Psa 2:9 - His enemies shall be subject to His terrible power (Job_4:9; 2Th_2:8), as His people to His grace (Psa_110:2-3).

rod of iron--denotes severity (Rev_2:27).

a potter's vessel--when shivered cannot be mended, which will describe utter destruction.
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible


This is not the condition we live in. We are in a state of grace and longsuffering. God still pours out His love and grace on everyone, so that some may come to know Him. He does not rule His enemies with an iron rod right now... LOL Gee I guess Soviet Totalinarinasim
didnt fall. And the Third Reich is well and functioning. Yup about as well as the Pharisaees and the Roman Legions. And all that stuff at Jerusalem ,,, alll that destruction personally prophesied by Jesus Christ, a million dead in one city, mothers reduced to eating their own children,,, was an illustration of 'love and grace' denoting severety...

Take care

Hitch

[Hitch]

II. Dispensation Of Conscience (Genesis 3:21-8:14)

Requirement: Human beings were tested to see if they would obey their own conscince regarding right and wrong (Gen. 3:22; 4:7, 15; 6:1-7). According to Gen. 3:21, God made Adam & Eve "coats of skins," and He may have shown them at this time how to make an animal sacrifice to worship God. In Chapter 4, both Cain & Abel know how to offer sacrifices, so they had probably learned from their parents.



1. What NT author(s) cites this era as distinctive in away matching (or even close) to what you have described above?

. In Chapter 4, both Cain & Abel know how to offer sacrifices,

STOP DA MUSIC as Jimmy Durante would say. TROW ME DA BOOK..

Why isnt this the 'Dispensation of Sacrfice'? You have already weakened your position saying the sacrficial ordiances were passed down (Thats a fair definition of law) To Cain from the previous generation. The appeal to ''conscience only' is lost at the outset, . To the point that the division and name of this 'dispensation' is completley arbitrary and fabricated. If its not,,,(Well I ve already asked for Apostolic supprt for your position)


But what is true is that the sacrfices had already started. This law affected every human being on the planet and had a very early ,as you say with Adam, begining and a definate end. It had distinct requirements and expectations,positive and negative. It was by design temporary .It is one of the very few cultural aspects carried down (stream,,,heh heh) from the antedeluvians. It fits the definition of a 'dispensation' very well.

Why isnt this era called the 'Dispensation of Sacrfice'? This fits much better and is far less ambiguous than 'conscience'.


Take care

Hitch

[Hitch]

Dispensations of Human Govt. & Promise

RevSteve45:

III. Dispensation Of Human Government (Gen. 8:15-11:32)

Requirements: After the Flood, God gives His first commandments to mankind, since Adam:

1. Be fruitful, multiply & replenish the earth (Gen. 9:1, 7).
2. Rule over animals (Gen. 9:2)
3. Eating animals is now permitted, instead of plants only. (Gen. 9:3)
4. Eating animals with the blood still in them is forbidden (Gen. 9:4).
5. Murder is forbidden (Gen. 9:6).
6. Capital punishment commanded for murderers (Gen. 9:6).
7. God establishes a covenant never again to destroy the Earth by water (Gen. 9:8-17)

Length: From Noah's Flood to the Call of Abraham at 75 years old, 427 years.

Favorable Beginning: Mankind had a new beginning, with people who loved God, had rich experience & wisdom, true worship of God, new laws, a new covenant, promises of blessing, dominion over the earth, and responsibility to rule himself.

Purpose Of God: To test man under a new standard of conduct. Mankind had failed to keep one command of God. He had failed to follow his conscience in chosing right & rejecting wrong. Now God is instituting governments of men, to enforce the right & punish the wrong.

Failure Of Man: Mankind built the Tower Of Babel, attempting to reach Heaven, and refusing to spread across the Earth, as God had commanded.

Judgment of God: God destroyed the Tower of Babel and confused their languages, so that mankind had no choice but to scatter across the Earth. He also divided the continents, to make it impossible for mankind to attempt this again.

Promise Of Redemption: As He promised, God did not destroy mankind, but permitted salvation to be by grace, through faith in the coming Redeemer.

IV. Dispensation Of Promise (Gen. 12:1-Exodus 12:37)

Requirement: For Abraham and his seed, the requirement was to have faith in God, obey Him, remain segregated from all other nmations, and evangelize the world.

Length: From the call of Abraham at 75 years old to the Exodus: 430 years.

Favorable Beginning: God now began to deal with one special family of the human race, Abraham and his descendants, in the fulfillment of His plan. Not only did God promise that the M<essiah would come from his line, but that the Promised Land would be given to his descendants eternally, as a base for missionary and government operations. (Gen. 12:1-3, 7, 13, 14-18; 15:13-21; 17:1-21) God also promised that revelation would come through Abraham's descendants (Gen. 12:1-3; 15:13-21; 17:1-21; Romans 3:1-2; 4:1-25; 9:4-5; Gal. 3:8, Heb. 11:8-19)

Purpose Of God: To choose one man through whom Messiah would come, to use him & his seed as His represenatives on the earth, and to give them Canaan as a base of operations for the plan of God to be carried out. It was also God's purpose to show the heathen, through Abraham, the differences between serving God, and serving all other gods.

Failure Of Man: Abraham failed God in bringing his father Terah with him (Gen. 11:31-32); in going down to Egypt during a famine and telling Sara to lie (Gen. 12:10-20);in going in to lie with Hagar to have a son (Gen. 16:1-16); deceiving Abimelech concerning Sara (Gen. 20:1-18).

Isaac failed God in lying to Abimelech about his wife (Gen. 26:6-35); in seeking to give the blessing to Esau instead of Jacob (Gen. 27:1-4).

Jacob failed God in deceiving Esau to sell him the birthright (Gen. 25:27-34); in deceiving Isaac into giving him the blessing (Gen. 27:1-33); in loving Joseph more than all of his other sons, thus helping to incite jealousy (Gen. 37:3).

The sons of Jacob failed God in selling Joseph into slavery (Gen. 37:4-6); in Judah going into a prostitute (Gen. 38:1-30).

Israel failed God after the death of Jacob and his sons in fighting with one another (Exodus 2:11-14); and in despising Moses & Aaron (Exodus 5:21).

Judgment Of God: The judgment upon Israel was bondage in Egypt for 400 years. This was the beginning of oppression by Gentiles to be carried n eventualy by 8 world kingdoms. Even so, God judged Egypt for their harsh treatment of the Jews, by the 10 plagues.

Promise of Redemption: Israel had the gospel (Gal. 3:8; Hebrews 4:2) and the typical programs of sacrifices, which, in shadow, taught them about redemption through the promised Messiah. (Exodus 12; 25:1-40; Lev. 1:1-10, 20; 23:1-44)



III. Dispensation Of Human Government (Gen. 8:15-11:32)

Requirements: After the Flood, God gives His first commandments to mankind, since Adam:

1. Be fruitful, multiply & replenish the earth (Gen. 9:1, 7).
2. Rule over animals (Gen. 9:2)
3. Eating animals is now permitted, instead of plants only. (Gen. 9:3)
4. Eating animals with the blood still in them is forbidden (Gen. 9:4).
5. Murder is forbidden (Gen. 9:6).
6. Capital punishment commanded for murderers (Gen. 9:6).
7. God establishes a covenant never again to destroy the Earth by water (Gen. 9:8-17)

Length: From Noah's Flood to the Call of Abraham at 75 years old, 427 years.

Favorable Beginning: Mankind had a new beginning, with people who loved God, had rich experience & wisdom, true worship of God, new laws, a new covenant, promises of blessing, dominion over the earth, and responsibility to rule himself.

Purpose Of God: To test man under a new standard of conduct. Mankind had failed to keep one command of God. He had failed to follow his conscience in chosing right & rejecting wrong. Now God is instituting governments of men, to enforce the right & punish the wrong.



Under ' Purpose of God'

1.

In what Scriptire does God tell anyone to 'follow his conscience', before Paul's letters?

2.

What NT writer uses this distinctionof the time referred to?

3.

What NT author teaches that men have the abilty to 'reject wrong' of their auspices?

[RevSteve45]

Why isnt this the 'Dispensation of Sacrfice'? You have already weakened your position saying the sacrficial ordiances were passed down (Thats a fair definition of law) To Cain from the previous generation. The appeal to ''conscience only' is lost at the outset, . To the point that the division and name of this 'dispensation' is completley arbitrary and fabricated. If its not,,,(Well I ve already asked for Apostolic supprt for your position)


But what is true is that the sacrfices had already started. This law affected every human being on the planet and had a very early ,as you say with Adam, begining and a definate end. It had distinct requirements and expectations,positive and negative. It was by design temporary .It is one of the very few cultural aspects carried down (stream,,,heh heh) from the antedeluvians. It fits the definition of a 'dispensation' very well.

Why isnt this era called the 'Dispensation of Sacrfice'? This fits much better and is far less ambiguous than 'conscience'.

Hitch,

I am going by the commandments given by God, for the diffeent dispensations. For the Dispensation of Conscience, no specific commands are given, even though we do see sacrifices being offered by Cain & Abel. If there are no commandments, then mankind is left to folow his own conscience. As God told Cain:

Gen 4:6-7, And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (KJV)

Cain's sin is that he knows what is right, but is not doing it. Instead of Cain ruling over sin, sin is ruling over him.


In what Scriptire does God tell anyone to 'follow his conscience', before Paul's letters?

I just showed you.


What NT writer uses this distinction of the time referred to?

Heb 1:1-2, God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (KJV)

Acts 17:30, And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (KJV)


What NT author teaches that men have the abilty to 'reject wrong' of their auspices?

Josh 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (KJV)

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Today @ 11:19 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=158646#post158646)
RevSteve45:



Hitch,

I am going by the commandments given by God, for the diffeent dispensations. For the Dispensation of Conscience, no specific commands are given, even though we do see sacrifices being offered by Cain &amp; Abel. If there are no commandments, then mankind is left to folow his own conscience. As God told Cain: Funny then that God had to 'mark' Cain in order to keep the other,s from rendering what we know to be perfect justice. Obviously 'laws' of various kinds were in place. This leads to the ridiculous notion that Noah could tell clean from unclean animals by 'conscience' alone. You may say that specifics are not recorded, but that ,in DF thinking must also apply to Abe who lived long before Moses and the text is as clear as comon sense:

Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
(KJV) note the specific s 'my voice,my laws' another contrast to the 'huiman government' idea.


But Abe lived in the 'dispensation of Promise' well before the 'Dispensation of Law' . The very idea that no laws existed prior to Siniai is as contrary to reality as it is to the Scriptures themselves. Commandments ,statutes, and laws,,, where are these recorded? Where is Abe told by God to tithe?' I am going by the commandments given by God, for the diffeent dispensations. Along with the above what passage instructs men to form 'human governments'? I know of no such directive. If you say it is implied because of the requirements given then that same standard must apply to Cain[/b]



Gen 4:6-7, And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (KJV)
Obviolsy 'doest well' refers to bringing an acceptable sacrfice a specific only known by directive

Cain's sin is that he knows what is right, but is not doing it. LMBO, murder is hardly a sin of ommision, you're really straining to get to this point.
Instead of Cain ruling over sin, sin is ruling over him.



I just showed you. There is nothin gthere to build a doctrine on




Heb 1:1-2, God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (KJV)

Acts 17:30, And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (KJV) I dont see any mention of the era you identifiy as the 'Dispensation of Conscience' in these passages. Moses is often quoted in the NT surely this impoprtant division of the Scriptures exists in model form somehwere in Apostolic writtings. Is this all you have?




Josh 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (KJV) Last time I looked in my 1917 Scofield Reference Bible Joshua was an OT book. Try again.



In His Service,
Steve Take care

Hitch

[RevSteve45]

Funny then that God had to 'mark' Cain in order to keep the others from rendering what we know to be perfect justice. Obviously 'laws' of various kinds were in place. This leads to the ridiculous notion that Noah could tell clean from unclean animals by 'conscience' alone.

The fact is, there are no commandments recorded You have not shown me where any commandments are recorded. The reason why God told Noah about clea & unclean animals, is so that clean animals would be available for sacrifice. But once again, sacrifice is not commanded by God. Noah did that of his own free will, as a worship offering to God.


You may say that specifics are not recorded, but that ,in DF thinking must also apply to Abe who lived long before Moses and the text is as clear as comon sense:
Gen 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
(KJV) note the specific s 'my voice,my laws' another contrast to the 'huiman government' idea.

But Abe lived in the 'dispensation of Promise' well before the 'Dispensation of Law' . The very idea that no laws existed prior to Siniai is as contrary to reality as it is to the Scriptures themselves. Commandments ,statutes, and laws,,, where are these recorded? Where is Abe told by God to tithe?' I am going by the commandments given by God, for the diffeent dispensations. Along with the above what passage instructs men to form 'human governments'? I know of no such directive. If you say it is implied because of the requirements given then that same standard must apply to Cain

I never SAID there were no commandments under Human Govt. & Promise. As a matter of fact, I gave a whole LIST of commandments under Human Govt. And obviously, Abraham had to obey whatever commandments God gave him. He failed to do so, as did Isaac, Jacob, Jacob's sons & their sons. That is why I talk about the "Failure Of Man, " in that Dispensation, as in all OTHER dispensations (except the New Heavens & New Earth, of course).

I said,

Cain's sin is that he knows what is right, but is not doing it.

You responded,


LMBO, murder is hardly a sin of ommision, you're really straining to get to this point.

Long before Cain committed murder, he knew the proper way to offer a sacrifice, but he did not do it. THAT was his sin, before he EVER got the idea to murder his brother.

I said,

Heb 1:1-2, God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (KJV)

Acts 17:30, And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (KJV) ”

You responded,


I dont see any mention of the era you identifiy as the 'Dispensation of Conscience' in these passages. Moses is often quoted in the NT surely this impoprtant division of the Scriptures exists in model form somehwere in Apostolic writtings. Is this all you have?

I never said the Dispensation of Conscience was there. But the concept that the requirements of God from one period of time to another, is quite clearly there. At one point in history, God speaks one way, and requires one thing. At another point in history, God speaks ANOTHER way, & requires somethging else.

Try as you might, Hitch, you CANNOT get around the fact that a command by GOD to offer sacrifices & have laws is only IMPLIED in Genesis 4-6, not specifically stated. The sin of man during THIS Dispensation was NOT failure to offer sacrifices or to obey Divinely ordained laws, but:

Gen 6:5, And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, AND THAT EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART WAS ONBLY EVIL CONTINUALLY. (KJV)

Sorry, Hitch, but although sacrifices to God WERE offered throught the Dispensations of Conscience, Human Govt and Promise, you will have to look under the Dispensation of LAW before you find God condemning someone for failing to offer a sacrifice.

You said,


What NT author teaches that men have the abilty to 'reject wrong' of their auspices? ”

I responded,

Josh 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (KJV)

You replied,


Last time I looked in my 1917 Scofield Reference Bible Joshua was an OT book. Try again.

What gives you the idea that a NT book is NEEDED?? The opportunity to choose right or wrong is found THROUGHOUT Scripture.

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Today @ 09:24 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=159388#post159388)
RevSteve45:



The fact is, there are no commandments recorded You have not shown me where any commandments are recorded. The reason why God told Noah about clea &amp; unclean animals, is so that clean animals would be available for sacrifice. But once again, sacrifice is not commanded by God. Noah did that of his own free will, as a worship offering to God. Where is it recorded that Noah acted on his own? You should see now that I will use your own standard of proof, so show where the Scripture says Noah acted of his own free will.




I never SAID there were no commandments under Human Govt. &amp; Promise. As a matter of fact, I gave a whole LIST of commandments under Human Govt. Then why isnt this also the dispensation of Law?
And obviously, Abraham had to obey whatever commandments God gave him. He failed to do so, as did Isaac, Jacob, Jacob's sons &amp; their sons. That is why I talk about the &quot;Failure Of Man, &quot; in that Dispensation, as in all OTHER dispensations (except the New Heavens &amp; New Earth, of course). I asked WHERE as is what Scripture are the chages ,commandments and laws located, associated with Abe . Above you make a grate deal of the absence of this very same thing, to the point of saying they dont exist because they are not recorded. Its your standard Rev...


I said,

Cain's sin is that he knows what is right, but is not doing it.

You responded,



Long before Cain committed murder, he knew the proper way to offer a sacrifice, but he did not do it. THAT was his sin, before he EVER got the idea to murder his brother. LOL It takes dedication to seperate Cain's rebellion wrt his sacrfice and the fratricide, the next recorded event...


I said,

Heb 1:1-2, God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (KJV)

Acts 17:30, And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (KJV) ”

You responded,



I never said the Dispensation of Conscience was there. But the concept that the requirements of God from one period of time to another, is quite clearly there. At one point in history, God speaks one way, and requires one thing. At another point in history, God speaks ANOTHER way, &amp; requires somethging else. So what? I asked for NT support for your claim of the very existence of that 'dispensation' Im still waiting.


Try as you might, Hitch, you CANNOT get around the fact that a command by GOD to offer sacrifices &amp; have laws is only IMPLIED in Genesis 4-6, not specifically stated. The sin of man during THIS Dispensation was NOT failure to offer sacrifices or to obey Divinely ordained laws, but: The righteous form of marriage is not specifically stated here iether, nonetheless it is clear in the light of NT interpretation.


Gen 6:5, And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, AND THAT EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART WAS ONBLY EVIL CONTINUALLY. (KJV) LOL Yup Implied the very same way they were implied to Abe. Its nothing more than silly to insist an event is recorded to have occurred. But since you continue here I will repeat my question wrt to Noah. What scripture says Noah sacrficed and knew unclean from clean animals by conscience or free will? This is wishful thinking superseeding Scripture on your part Rev. A cart before the horse thing.


Sorry, Hitch, but although sacrifices to God WERE offered throught the Dispensations of Conscience, Human Govt and Promise, you will have to look under the Dispensation of LAW before you find God condemning someone for failing to offer a sacrifice. I dont know what your point is here but it is evident that ? Noah sacrficed and was delivered. Guess who wasnt. But you've got yourself a problem Rev, You cant rely on 'implication' in one place and deny it in the next.


You said,



I responded,

Josh 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (KJV) And when God asked Cain where Abel was He didnt already know???


You replied,



What gives you the idea that a NT book is NEEDED?? You should be able to see that I will insist on NT support for every so-called dispensation, and its evident you will be eager to display what ever you think is helpful,so dont complain when I ask for such directly. Of course you dont have to respond to me at all , but that would have its own voice.
The opportunity to choose right or wrong is found THROUGHOUT Scripture. As a 'teacher in Israel' dont you know the Apostles are the interpreters of OT Scriptures for the church ? But its more than obvious you have no NT support. If you had you would have provided it. BTW didnt I read some where that men are sinful by nature.concieved and born into condemnation at emnity with God and things of the Spirit?

So you are supporting a system not found in the Gospels or taught by the Apostles, yet you say it is the basis of Scriptural understanding ? Unaccaptable. The system of 'dispensations' is contrived and set out arbitrarily without support from Christ or the Apostles. And in fact often is contrary to recorded revelation. The divisions are wholly subjective and without support anywhere in the NT. Biblically speaking it does not exist.


In His Service,
Steve Take care

Hitch

[RevSteve45]

Hitch,

If you're looking for a NT listing of the Dispensations and their requirements, it does not exist. That is because ALL of the Dispensations through Law are found in the OT, not the NT. Only Grace, the Milenium & the New Heavens & New Earth are found in the NT.

I do not look for NT support for OT dispensations. THE OT speaks quite well for itself.

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Today @ 10:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=159478#post159478)
RevSteve45:

Hitch,

If you're looking for a NT listing of the Dispensations and their requirements, it does not exist. That is because ALL of the Dispensations through Law are found in the OT, not the NT. Only Grace, the Milenium &amp; the New Heavens &amp; New Earth are found in the NT.

I do not look for NT support for OT dispensations. THE OT speaks quite well for itself.

In His Service,
Steve OK ,,,What OT author describes and defines these distinctions in a manner matching (or approximating) your position?

In contrast I see grace throughout the Scriptures and supported by NT authors . And I have already posted the relevent NH&E passages. Odd how DFs will recite Issy, but forget this part...


Im glad this is cleard up; If you're looking for a NT listing of the Dispensations and their requirements, it does not exist. But its sooo cute. I didnt ask for a listing I asked for any support you could find. Of course that doesnt exist iether.

Take care

Hitch

[RevSteve45]

Hitch,

I listed all of the Scriptures where each Dispensation starts.

Innocence: Gen. 2:16
Conscience: Gen. 3:21
Human Govt.: Gen. 8:15
Promise: Gen. 12:1
Law: Exodus 12:38

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 11:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=159539#post159539)
RevSteve45:

Hitch,

I listed all of the Scriptures where each Dispensation starts.

Innocence: Gen. 2:16
Conscience: Gen. 3:21
Human Govt.: Gen. 8:15
Promise: Gen. 12:1
Law: Exodus 12:38

In His Service,
Steve No.

You have listed the point you claim each dispensation starts. (its E19:8 btw).


And what Prophet or Apostle agrees?

You have yet to make a case from Scripture supporting the existence of these divisions, from the Prophets or Apostles. And you have yet to support ,from Scripture, these specific divisions.

Without the Prophets or Apostles anyone is equally capable of designing his own distinctions and these would be as arbitrary as Cy's.

One could as easily describe and claim the 'Dispensation of Bondage', the 'Dispensation of Wandering' the 'Dispensation of Conquest', and the already mentioned 'Dispensation of Sacrifice' and a host of others.

As an aside I came across this gem looking of the last 'dispensation 'listed;

It is exceedingly important to observe;(1) That Jehovah reminded the people that hitherto they had been the objects of his free grace; (2) that the law is not proposed as a means of life... p 93 SRB 09 ed emphasis added

So says Cy the designer of the 'dispensation 'you listed.

The one in charge of giving the Law says otherwise;


32:46-47
46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.
47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
(KJV)


I dont see how Cy could be more contrary.

Take care

Hitch

[Manasseh]

As an aside I came across this gem looking of the last 'dispensation 'listed;

It is exceedingly important to observe;(1) That Jehovah reminded the people that hitherto they had been the objects of his free grace; (2) that the law is not proposed as a means of life... p 93 SRB 09 ed emphasis added

So says Cy the designer of the 'dispensation 'you listed.

The one in charge of giving the Law says otherwise;


32:46-47
46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.
47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
(KJV)


I dont see how Cy could be more contrary.

It seems to me, after having a close look at the verse and of the SRB quote, that the verse is speaking of life in a temperal sense, the SBR of life eternal i.e salvation. Juz MHO.

Regards
M

[Hitch]

Well M thats only because I coulndt stand the write the whole thing out (I dont have the SRB electronicly) But I did post it in its own context: the remainder follows


...but as a means by which Israel might become 'a peculiar treasure' and a 'kingdom of priests'...

Sorry but this wont stay down with out some help the last part of this vomit reads,

that law was not imposed until it had been proposed and voluntarily accepted.

Scofield has made of mockery of the greatest blessing ever sent to mankind, excepting only Christ himself. It is throughly blasphemous to speak of the Law as an 'imposition'.


Take care

Hitch

[Manasseh]

Well M thats only because I coulndt stand the write the whole thing out (I dont have the SRB electronicly) But I did post it in its own context: the remainder follows

It's online here

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/ScofieldReferenceNotes/

though it's the 1917 Ed.


...but as a means by which Israel might become 'a peculiar treasure' and a 'kingdom of priests'...

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The Law was a means for Israel to become a nation of priests etc. But it was not a means of eternal life as the SRB says. From Deut 32:46-47 the law was to be a complete way of life, but I don't think the verses mean any more than that.

Regards
M

[Hitch]

The Law was a means for Israel to become a nation of priests etc. But it was not a means of eternal life as the SRB says. From Deut 32:46-47 the law was to be a complete way of life, but I don't think the verses mean any more than that.

You're really strecthing M. Dont forget the context, according to Scofield is that the Law is an imposition. And in the note its fair to say if he meant 'eternal life' he would have simply added 'eternal' to the text. rather he uses the plain' a means to life'. Incerting eternal here is quite an assumption, and unnatural . The note you quote above may appear somewhere in the SRB but not on page 93.

niterz

H

[Manasseh]

I think I'll let people decide for themselves


Scofield notes pg 93

19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Thus shalt thou say

It is exceedingly important to observe:

(1) that Jehovah reminded the people that hitherto they had been the objects of His free grace;

(2)
that the law is not proposed as a means of life, but as a means by which Israel might become "a peculiar treasure" and a "kingdom of priests";

(3) that the law was not imposed until it had been proposed and voluntarily accepted. The principle is stated in Galatians 5:1-4.

For Israel to become, as the SRB says, "a kingdom of preists" would entail the law being a temporal way of life. So in fact, when the SRB says "a means of life", the natural reading is a means of salvation i.e eternal life.

Lets see what the SRB says elsewhere...See SRB pg 1244

law

I. The law of Moses, Summary:

(1) The Mosaic Covenant was given to Israel in three parts: the commandments, expressing the righteous will of God Exodus 20:1-26, the "judgments," governing the social life of Israel Exodus 21:1-24:11, and the "ordinances," governing the religious life of Israel ; Exodus 24:12; 31:18.

So the SRB agrees that the Law was given as a "temporal" way of life.

regards
M

[Hitch]

So the SRB agrees that the Law was given as a "temporal" way of life.

regards
M

Well M if that what the note on p 93 means , and unless you can edit in 'eternal' nearly 100 years after the fact, this forms two distinct images.

1.

Another glaring example of a Scofieldian internal conflict.

2.

A view of the wretchedly poor vision of the Law on Scofield's part.




For Israel to become, as the SRB says, "a kingdom of preists" would entail the law being a temporal way of life. So in fact, when the SRB says "a means of life", the natural reading is a means of salvation i.e eternal life.Cute. It might have worked except that you have revesed the order . Massage all ya wany M. There is nothing in the text of that note that identifies or even alludes to the 'heavenly' or 'eternal', niether is salvation mentioned at all.

At any rate all interested have the text available. As a reminder, the object of this last few posts is note #3 p 93 of the 1909 SRB.

I have had enough of this aside and I wait for responses wrt the challenges i put up against the 'dispensations'.

Hitch



I m curious whether the '67 edition changed this part, perhaps some one out in cyberscofieldland knows...