China the next Christian world power?

[nomad]

I know, it sounds odd, but I've been kicking this around in my head. Don't know why the idea occurred to me, but it seems possible that China will follow in the footsteps of Rome and become the newest Christian world power at some point.

Some of this is based on Stark's analysis of the Roman empire in Constantine's time - he believed that Constantine was influenced to convert to Christianity not by a traditional conversion, but because the Christians were getting too numerous and powerful to ignore.

So, some parallels with Rome:

- The church in China is under persecution. And, from what I can tell, the persecution is much like it was under the Roman empire - shallow and inconsistent. Christians are arrested or killed when they embarrass the government and/or cause problems, but many others, even those likely to be known as Christians, aren't touched. I don't know a lot about this, but I know I've seen news reports of incidents involving Christians in China, so obviously the newspeople knew where they were.

- ... and yet, the church in China is growing. China is limited compared to the Roman empire, where it's possible the Christians simply outbred the pagans, because of the one child philosophy, but China is a big country, and Christianity is growing. The Chinese have already tried repression, and it isn't working. Eventually, they will have to face the church. They may choose the "embrace and extend" of Constantine.

China has Christianity in its history as well: there is some evidence that Nestorians were high up in the emperor's service at some points in history. Christianity was not uncommon in the steppes of Mongolia and Manchuria either - Ong Khan, the first patron of Temudur (otherwise known as Genghis Khan), was a Christian.

I don't know if it will actually happen, but I thought the parallels a bit curious. Just curious what other people think.

[lycaphim]

Well, there is a probability. On the other hand, just because there are some parallels doesn't mean that the exact same thing is going to take place.

[technomage]

I know, it sounds odd, but I've been kicking this around in my head. Don't know why the idea occurred to me, but it seems possible that China will follow in the footsteps of Rome and become the newest Christian world power at some point.

Some of this is based on Stark's analysis of the Roman empire in Constantine's time - he believed that Constantine was influenced to convert to Christianity not by a traditional conversion, but because the Christians were getting too numerous and powerful to ignore.

So, some parallels with Rome:

- The church in China is under persecution. And, from what I can tell, the persecution is much like it was under the Roman empire - shallow and inconsistent. Christians are arrested or killed when they embarrass the government and/or cause problems, but many others, even those likely to be known as Christians, aren't touched. I don't know a lot about this, but I know I've seen news reports of incidents involving Christians in China, so obviously the newspeople knew where they were.

- ... and yet, the church in China is growing. China is limited compared to the Roman empire, where it's possible the Christians simply outbred the pagans, because of the one child philosophy, but China is a big country, and Christianity is growing. The Chinese have already tried repression, and it isn't working. Eventually, they will have to face the church. They may choose the "embrace and extend" of Constantine.

China has Christianity in its history as well: there is some evidence that Nestorians were high up in the emperor's service at some points in history. Christianity was not uncommon in the steppes of Mongolia and Manchuria either - Ong Khan, the first patron of Temudur (otherwise known as Genghis Khan), was a Christian.

I don't know if it will actually happen, but I thought the parallels a bit curious. Just curious what other people think.
Hmmm ... interesting. Lycaphim interjects a (quite proper) note of caution, but it certainly is interesting.

Time will tell.

[Ryokan]

Maybe. But I bet nationalism kicks in and Christianity slows down. Especially when China's economy runs into growing pains.

[nomad]

that's true... the Chinese have a fairly strong national identity, compared to the Roman empire which was much more a patchwork of cultures - heck, a great percentage of the population didn't even speak 'Roman' but spoke Greek instead.

Saw this morning that the Pope and the Chinese government have gotten into a 'disagreement'...

[shunyadragon]

that's true... the Chinese have a fairly strong national identity, compared to the Roman empire which was much more a patchwork of cultures - heck, a great percentage of the population didn't even speak 'Roman' but spoke Greek instead.

Saw this morning that the Pope and the Chinese government have gotten into a 'disagreement'...

I have lived in China for ten years, and this scenario lacks any sense of reality. The main problem is Christianity represents a very small minority and growth is limited even with today's more tolerant atmosphere for religions. Christianity lacks a strong appeal and identity in Chinese culture, which is more Confucian/Taoist in nature.

[tranquily_rsrvd]

According to David Aikman, author of Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Transforming China and Changing the Global Balance of Power, Christianity is prevalent in some intellectual cirlces. Apparently these intellectuals hold "Christian meetings," and Aikman attributes much of the spread to these meetings. I found an interesting link that discusses this phenomenon if anyone is interested: http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/aikman200312220001.asp

[shunyadragon]

According to David Aikman, author of Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Transforming China and Changing the Global Balance of Power, Christianity is prevalent in some intellectual cirlces. Apparently these intellectuals hold "Christian meetings," and Aikman attributes much of the spread to these meetings. I found an interesting link that discusses this phenomenon if anyone is interested: http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/aikman200312220001.asp

The statement 'prevalent in some intellectual circles' is to vague to have any real meaning. I could both agree and disagree with this based on my experiences and studies of contemporary China. I agree that 'Christian meetings' are held by some intellectuals, but the extent is very limited in the context of the overall cultural and religious framework of modern China.

[tranquily_rsrvd]

I have lived in China for ten years, and this scenario lacks any sense of reality. The main problem is Christianity represents a very small minority and growth is limited even with today's more tolerant atmosphere for religions. Christianity lacks a strong appeal and identity in Chinese culture, which is more Confucian/Taoist in nature.

But don't you think there may be some areas of China which might be more willing to breakaway from traditional religion? Isn't this the case in America? The Americans in the "Bible belt," are often very devout protestant Chritians and it's highly unlikely that they'd ever convert to another religion. Compare the Bible Belt to,"progressive" metro areas like the Bay Area in California where people are much more willing to breakaway from tradition.

[Teallaura]

Maybe. But I bet nationalism kicks in and Christianity slows down. Especially when China's economy runs into growing pains.

Actually, I would suspect the opposite - Christianity tends to grow most during adversity, both to the church and/or to culture around it.

[shunyadragon]

But don't you think there may be some areas of China which might be more willing to breakaway from traditional religion? Isn't this the case in America? The Americans in the "Bible belt," are often very devout protestant Chritians and it's highly unlikely that they'd ever convert to another religion. Compare the Bible Belt to,"progressive" metro areas like the Bay Area in California where people are much more willing to breakaway from tradition.

The concept of breaking away is interesting in that it is not as easy or apparent as you may think. The regionalism of the US concerning religious belief evolved over time in the diversity of our culture and not as much a result of people 'breaking away'.

In China people have been breaking away from traditional religion and culture more than in the west, but the trend is to that by far the majority have chosen a materialistic pragmatic atheism within the context of Chinese culture. Some of course have become Christians, but this trend is definitely not to the extent people claim. A large percentage of the conversions in recent years to various Christian faiths (including Mormon and JW) have been for material gains and hope for VISAS. Some missionaries, especially Mormons, offer many percs including jobs to potential converts.

[tranquily_rsrvd]

but the trend is to that by far the majority have chosen a materialistic pragmatic atheism within the context of Chinese culture.

Did they choose atheism? Judging by some of the articles I've read, it appears there are serious ramifications for converts.

[shunyadragon]

.

Did they choose atheism? Judging by some of the articles I've read, it appears there are serious ramifications for converts.

Despite some converts, the trend in modern China is towards materialistic beliefs and religious beliefs have a more situational pragmatic role in individual choices. In fact the idealism of reform and other spiritual concerns which was a powerful growing force in the 80s and early 90s is fading in light of pragmatic bottom line that this does not lead to success in China on an individual or group level.

[nomad]

Interesting, thanks for the info.

I did read another book recently ('china wakes', by a couple of NYT foreign correspondence journalists) which seemed to agree with you; it implied that there is at least the beginnings of a 'spiritual awakening', but while some were turning to christianity, even more were turning to 'non-religious spirituality' such as qi gong. That would probably be considered 'new age' at best, but could probably also be considered atheism.

This may be hard to answer, but is the 'underground church' fairly visible over there, or is it something that is hidden well? I have heard that these are growing very quickly, much more so than the state-supported church, but I don't know how the statistics are gathered, or how, if it's hidden well, we have any idea at all how many members there are. Anything you know there, I'd be interested in the insider's perspective.

It took 300 years for the Roman empire to become Christian enough to attract Constantine's attention, so I was thinking more along that time frame. Still really fast compared to China's history :)