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Jaxb
07-15-2015, 12:05 PM
Robert Kane in his book, A Contemporary Introduction to Free Will, discusses the Consequence Argument for incompatibilism. I modified it and here is the argument:

If theological determinism is true, then how we act today is the necessary consequences of what God ordained we would do. But it is not up to us what God ordained. We have no control over those things. If it is not up to us whether certain things happen then neither is it up to us whether the consequences of those things happen. If we have no control over what God ordained we would do and it has the consequence that we will act in a certain way, then we have no control over how we act. Hence, if theological determinism is true, then it is not up to us how we act today. If it is not up to us how we act today, then we are not responsible for how we act today.

How would you respond to it?

I'm thinking that just because God ordains that we do something does not mean that we do not have any control over how we act. We can act according to our desires. Not all of our actions are involuntary reflexes.

seer
07-15-2015, 12:20 PM
I'm thinking that just because God ordains that we do something does not mean that we do not have any control over how we act. We can act according to our desires. Not all of our actions are involuntary reflexes.

But would not our desires also be ordained by God?

Christianbookworm
07-15-2015, 12:26 PM
How does that make sense? I though determinism would entail having the nonexistent free will of fictional characters. Can fictional characters be held responsible out of universe for their actions when it's the writer that causes everything? God didn't decree from eternity past that I would write this post. He knew that this universe He created would have me writing this post in it versus some other hypothetical universe where I didn't. Of course, that is an incredibly small example. I really don't see how a deterministic universe would be different from a fictional one.

Jaxb
07-16-2015, 08:54 AM
But would not our desires also be ordained by God?

Yes, they are ordained from God. God made a plan that our desires would proceed from our heart or will.

seer
07-16-2015, 09:19 AM
Yes, they are ordained from God. God made a plan that our desires would proceed from our heart or will.

You said: I'm thinking that just because God ordains that we do something does not mean that we do not have any control over how we act. We can act according to our desires. Not all of our actions are involuntary reflexes.

If that is the case and God does ordain our desires then no, we don't have any control over how we act.

dacristoy
07-16-2015, 09:39 AM
But would not our desires also be ordained by God?

If God deterministically determines (Micromanages) everything, then there can not exist a thing called disobedience. Ergo sin is thereby eliminated...

seer
07-16-2015, 01:15 PM
If God deterministically determines (Micromanages) everything, then there can not exist a thing called disobedience. Ergo sin is thereby eliminated...

Right, because everything you do is the will of God.

Truthseeker
07-16-2015, 04:19 PM
Right, because everything you do is the will of God.May I use an analogy? Punch hit Judy. Those characters are puppets, therefore it was not really Punch who did the hitting; it was Punch's puppeteer who hit Judy. That argument you accept. However, Punch's actions were proximate causes of Judy's getting hit.

seer
07-17-2015, 05:07 AM
May I use an analogy? Punch hit Judy. Those characters are puppets, therefore it was not really Punch who did the hitting; it was Punch's puppeteer who hit Judy. That argument you accept. However, Punch's actions were proximate causes of Judy's getting hit.

Right, so is Punch morally responsible for hitting Judy? Would it be just to hold Punch accountable?

Christianbookworm
07-17-2015, 05:11 AM
Right, so is Punch morally responsible for hitting Judy? Would it be just to hold Punch accountable?

Of course not! They're just puppets.

seer
07-17-2015, 05:15 AM
Of course not! They're just puppets.

:teeth:

Jaxb
07-17-2015, 08:08 AM
You said: I'm thinking that just because God ordains that we do something does not mean that we do not have any control over how we act. We can act according to our desires. Not all of our actions are involuntary reflexes.

If that is the case and God does ordain our desires then no, we don't have any control over how we act.

God has ultimate control; nothing happens without His permission. Just because God has ultimate control does not mean that we have no control over our actions. Not all of our actions are like reflexes. We can plan to do things and carry them out voluntarily.

I can drive a car and that is a voluntary action. It is not like sleep walking where the person does things without being aware or intending of what he is doing.

Jaxb
07-17-2015, 08:10 AM
If God deterministically determines (Micromanages) everything, then there can not exist a thing called disobedience. Ergo sin is thereby eliminated...

Just because He determines it does not mean that He commands it or is not offended by it. There is still such a thing called sin. Sin is the actions, attitudes, thoughts, and words that offend God.

Jaxb
07-17-2015, 08:12 AM
Right, because everything you do is the will of God.

There are different senses of the will of God. The will of God can be what God commands people or what God has planned to occur. God made a plan that Jesus would be nailed to a cross, but God did not command anyone to nail Jesus to the cross.

fm93
07-17-2015, 08:14 AM
Just because He determines it does not mean that He commands it or is not offended by it. There is still such a thing called sin. Sin is the actions, attitudes, thoughts, and words that offend God.
But if God basically arranges that we'll behave in ways that offend him (basically what it means to determine it), how can we be genuinely blameworthy, logically speaking?

seer
07-17-2015, 08:51 AM
God has ultimate control; nothing happens without His permission. Just because God has ultimate control does not mean that we have no control over our actions. Not all of our actions are like reflexes. We can plan to do things and carry them out voluntarily.

I can drive a car and that is a voluntary action. It is not like sleep walking where the person does things without being aware or intending of what he is doing.

Saying that God allows things is much different than saying that God ordains all acts. If that is the case then there is nothing like voluntary acts. Any more than a automaton has voluntary responses.

seer
07-17-2015, 08:53 AM
Just because He determines it does not mean that He commands it or is not offended by it. There is still such a thing called sin. Sin is the actions, attitudes, thoughts, and words that offend God.

So let me get this right - God is offended because we are doing what He created us to do, ordained us to do?

Truthseeker
07-17-2015, 04:37 PM
[link checked with Norton Security]

Andrew M. Bailey http://www.andrewmbailey.com/IandP.pdf
I can't say I agree with it, I don't understand it fully. I hope you will find it interesting, though.

dacristoy
07-18-2015, 11:12 AM
Right, because everything you do is the will of God.

It's good to know that I have never, never disobeyed God... I am sinless.:pray:

dacristoy
07-18-2015, 11:15 AM
Just because He determines it does not mean that He commands it or is not offended by it. There is still such a thing called sin. Sin is the actions, attitudes, thoughts, and words that offend God.

Well if God determines it, do I have the power to disobey him still?

Rushing Jaws
07-25-2015, 11:55 AM
God has ultimate control; nothing happens without His permission. Just because God has ultimate control does not mean that we have no control over our actions. Not all of our actions are like reflexes. We can plan to do things and carry them out voluntarily.

I can drive a car and that is a voluntary action. It is not like sleep walking where the person does things without being aware or intending of what he is doing.## STM that we can say that because God is in total control of every detail of the life and being of every creature, therefore, we can have free will. God's universal & almighty Providence does not - ISTM - hinder or quench or obliterate the being and activity of creatures, but, instead, is what makes creaturely activity possible, real, and efficacious; including free will. Nothing whatever escapes Divine Providence - to say anything did, would imply that all creatures are not created by God; that some can have meaning apart from God and the grace of God. To exist in any respect at all, is to be totally subject to God.

Just my 2d.