Who should have the final say as to abortion . . .

[Minnesota]

the father or mother?

And, there is NO, "both," "neither," or "person 'X'" option here. This is strictly an "either or" question. Two (2) choices, That's it. If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant.











Obviously this is also a test to see who can and cannot follow instructions. :teeth:

[Jnthn]

Last time I saw a question that poorly concieved it was in a piece of "research" commissioned by a political organisation. The question was contrived to "prove" their point of view under the aegis of market research

J

[Minnesota]

Au contraire mon amie. Here, "poorly conceived" only has relevance in light of the intended goal. Do you know what that goal is, perchance? My impression is that you are looking for something that does not exist. More importantly, as I pointed out in the OP, If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant.

[kawaika]

Well, ideally, they would both agree on the decision. However, I think that the mother should have the final decision, especially in cases in which she has to choose between her life and the life of the child.

Having said this, I will point out that I agree with what meh_gerbil said in his "death of fatherhood" thread.

[Jnthn]

Au contraire mon amie. Here, "poorly conceived" only has relevance in light of the intended goal. Do you know what that goal is, perchance? My impression is that you are looking for something that does not exist. More importantly, as I pointed out in the OP, If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant.
It was hardly a stretch to determine what you are indulging in gamesmanship. The very fact that you are holding something back (as I correctly inferred) is basis alone for criticising your post, so it's entirely relevant

J

[Telleriab2]

Minn, you used the wrong "ami." This one is for masculine reference. The one you used was feminine. Come to think of it, I am not sure "amie" is correct at all. I shall have to check that up.

[neocon_voter]

the father or mother?

And, there is NO, "both," "neither," or "person 'X'" option here. This is strictly an "either or" question. Two (2) choices, That's it. If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant.

Obviously this is also a test to see who can and cannot follow instructions. :teeth:

You are bifurcating.

Neocon_Voter

....don't worry, you don't need to see a doctor.

[dizzle]

Did Snarf get a hold of Minn's account?

[Shadow Phoenix]

Seems easy to forget a third person is always involved....

[Pilgrim]

This question is logically unsound because it has excluded the middle and created a false dichotomy.

[lao tzu]

The mother should have the final say, obviously. What exactly are you trying to ask with this thread Minn?

<irrelevant additional material deleted>

As ever, Jesse

[Shadow Phoenix]

the father or mother?

And, there is NO, "both," "neither," or "person 'X'" option here. This is strictly an "either or" question. Two (2) choices, That's it. If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant.











Obviously this is also a test to see who can and cannot follow instructions. :teeth:

I'd also like to add that if two people can't even decide on what to do with a baby in a womb, they don't have any business taking each other's clothes off in the first place.

[Ytaker]

the father or mother?

And, there is NO, "both," "neither," or "person 'X'" option here. This is strictly an "either or" question. Two (2) choices, That's it. If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant.

Well... Since the mother is pumped up with hormones, then she shouldn't have the final say on petty issues (assuming a case where abortion isn't threatening her life), no one should. Since you have, without providing a valid reason, and with no authority ordered us, I happily disobey. Here is the command sequence.

Financial reason, career, etc etc, no abortion.
Hates disabled people. No abortion
Doesn't like children. Adoption open, no abortion.
Hates girls. No abortion
Takes drugs, severe risk of injury to child. No abortion, put her in a recovery clinic.
Rape/incest. No abortion. Option of adoption open, incest ties in with disabled issue. Severe punishment for anyone who teases her or her child about rape.
Risk to mental/physical health, mild. No abortion.
Risk of mother's death. Mother.

[Minnesota]

Minn, you used the wrong "ami." This one is for masculine reference

Right, it should have been "ami." :blush: French is my only my 7th language.


Seems easy to forget a third person is always involved....

Good grief another one who can't read, "If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant."

(But just for fun:)
Really! Well, tell you what. Take keyboard in hand and create your own poll that includes this third person. As it stands, by design my poll is specifically limited to those I chose: the father and the mother. If you want to include Shrek or the Pope, or whomever in your poll, be my guest.

This question is logically unsound because it has excluded the middle and created a false dichotomy.

Oh, this should be interesting.



Please explain, Pilgrim. :popcorn:

[Shadow Phoenix]

Really! Well, tell you what. Take keyboard in hand and create your own poll that includes this third person. As it stands, by design my poll is specifically limited to those I chose: the father and the mother. If you want to include Shrek or the Pope, or whomever in your poll, be my guest.





That would be the baby of course.

Now the pro-abortion movement can say all it wants about the miserable existence a child could have, yet I wonder if this existence is so miserable, why are all the pro-abortionists themselves still alive? Do they keep their own existence because they really do not believe existence is something miserable?

And if existence is something good, well upon what grounds are you going to deprive someone else of that?

[HRG_new]

Well... Since the mother is pumped up with hormones, then she shouldn't have the final say on petty issues (assuming a case where abortion isn't threatening her life), no one should.

Calling motivations for abortion a "petty issue" is incredibly callous, since every unplanned pregnancy threatens her life - her future life as she planned it.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Calling motivations for abortion a "petty issue" is incredibly callous, since every unplanned pregnancy threatens her life - her future life as she planned it.

Let's not foget that every abortion effects the life of the baby......

[Ytaker]

Calling motivations for abortion a "petty issue" is incredibly callous, since every unplanned pregnancy threatens her life - her future life as she planned it.

Whilst the causes of her abortion that she cites may not be petty, the reasons can often be. She feels that some time in the future she may be in a slightly worse position, she may be heavily biased against a group, or something vague or stupid. It's rare that she has a clear, definite reason to have an abortion.

Even in serious issues, hormones can make a situation petty. Think of a time when a person you know has been very angry with you. Are their words likely to be logical, compassionate, and thought out, their actions the best for the circumstance?

Everything changes your future life. In addition, being a Christian, I do not believe that planning the future out in every detail is likely to work. "Therefore I tell you,... do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today." Matthew 6. Adapt to circumstances, improve your current stance and intelligence, but do not count your eggs till they hatch, to add in another ancient saying.

[Telleriab2]

I do not know if any of you stumbled across the thread started by Dee Dee in which she mentions being very sad about an abortion instance. Though the thread regards an individual case, it does provide some food for thought.

[XaositectCrayon]

I said the mother only because the bottom line of it is her body

I think you are trying to infer the general consensus on who is the parent. Also I think this is a thinly veiled attempt at proving that adding offensive material can blind people. Which you really dont NEED to prove that...

I am disapointed the Taoist didnt get it though

[XaositectCrayon]

Whilst the causes of her abortion that she cites may not be petty, the reasons can often be. She feels that some time in the future she may be in a slightly worse position, she may be heavily biased against a group, or something vague or stupid. It's rare that she has a clear, definite reason to have an abortion.

Even in serious issues, hormones can make a situation petty. Think of a time when a person you know has been very angry with you. Are their words likely to be logical, compassionate, and thought out, their actions the best for the circumstance?

Everything changes your future life. In addition, being a Christian, I do not believe that planning the future out in every detail is likely to work. "Therefore I tell you,... do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today's trouble is enough for today." Matthew 6. Adapt to circumstances, improve your current stance and intelligence, but do not count your eggs till they hatch, to add in another ancient saying.


though I dont agree with your political views you do atleast seem to reasonably back up your ideas...

[LindaK]

I'd also like to add that if two people can't even decide on what to do with a baby in a womb, they don't have any business taking each other's clothes off in the first place.
I SO agree with this!!!!!!

Having said that; however, to answer the question...the final say should go to the one with the uterus.

[Wisdomlover]

The PERSON who is inside the womb. The person who may not feel like being sucked apart, burned alive with salt, stabbed in the neck upon birth, THAT PERSON should have the say. Your question is irrelevant because it's not just 2 people involved, there is a 3rd- the little person growing in the womb.

[noobulidis]

The PERSON who is inside the womb. The person who may not feel like being sucked apart, burned alive with salt, stabbed in the neck upon birth, THAT PERSON should have the say. Your question is irrelevant because it's not just 2 people involved, there is a 3rd- the little person growing in the womb.

Well said.

[Minnesota]

The PERSON who is inside the womb. The person who may not feel like being sucked apart, burned alive with salt, stabbed in the neck upon birth, THAT PERSON should have the say. Your question is irrelevant because it's not just 2 people involved, there is a 3rd- the little person growing in the womb.

I know for some people following instructions is one of the toughest disciplines one can cultivate. Kind of like asking a motor-mouth to shut up a minute and listen for a change. It may happen, but the temptation eventually does them in. So I sympathize and understand your failure to comply with my request. That said, I can only repeat.


"If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant.

[Lily]

That would be the baby of course.

Now the pro-abortion movement can say all it wants about the miserable existence a child could have, yet I wonder if this existence is so miserable, why are all the pro-abortionists themselves still alive? Do they keep their own existence because they really do not believe existence is something miserable?

And if existence is something good, well upon what grounds are you going to deprive someone else of that?


Well said! :smile:

Lily~

[Goth_S]

It's not a "baby" it's a cluster of cells without even a brain.

Mother has final say. Her body, her clump of cells, her call.

[Alien]

Minn, you seem to have demonstrated your point, which, if I understand it correctly, was to demonstrate that when the subject of abortion is raised emotion takes over and all rational debate flies out of the window.

My answer: The mother should have the final say, because she has the greatest investment. It's she who has to go through nine months of discomfort, risk to her health, disruption of her life and so on. If the guy decides to skip out (or they jointly decide to separate) she will almost certainly have custody of the child and will have to raise it.

As far as all the anti-abortion rhetoric is concerned, all you guys are saying is that she should decide against the abortion, which is a reasonable statement of your position on abortion, but not the answer to the question. Perhaps, as a side issue, you might want to discuss whether you think a woman should be forced to bear a child against her will, as that is one consequence of choosing the "male" option in the poll.

As far as allowing the child to decide, I'm not sure how such a decision could be obtained. Maybe I'm missing the point though.

There, I managed to answer the question without addressing the rights and wrongs of abortion at all (at least that was my intent).

[anthrogirl]

Minn, you used the wrong "ami." This one is for masculine reference. The one you used was feminine. Come to think of it, I am not sure "amie" is correct at all. I shall have to check that up.

Thanks for pointing that out, Tell! Glad I'm not the only grammar nazi around here!

:wink:
ag

[anthrogirl]

Let's not foget that every abortion effects the life of the baby......
:stop:

Affects. Abortion affects the life of the baby...


carry on...

ag

[a_Mister_Smith]

The state (government) should have the final say. If it is left up to individuals to decide if they have the right to kill other individuals, and their potential victims are unable to speak for themselves, naturally the individuals with the power over their victims will give themselves that right to kill their victims.

Mister Smith

[Telleriab2]

I know for some people following instructions is one of the toughest disciplines one can cultivate. Kind of like asking a motor-mouth to shut up a minute and listen for a change. It may happen, but the temptation eventually does them in. So I sympathize and understand your failure to comply with my request. That said, I can only repeat.




"If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant.


Oh, poo. You're not any fun at all.

That being said, I have to point this out: your study is poorly done. I recently read in Fast Food Nation about a study that was done in which owners of franchises were questioned as to whether or not they had successful business; most of them said that they did. However, the flaw of this question revealed an important factor: the question was addressed to franchise owners who were still in business. Thus, the category of failed owners of franchises was overlooked to turn the percentages to reveal a different response. In short, you need a better question that deals with the other category. And, before you say it again, I shall do it for you:


"If you are unable to answer one or the other, what you say is irrelevant."

Yeah, yeah, yeah...