PDA

View Full Version : John the Apostle and the Three Nephites



Doctrine Matters
07-24-2015, 08:23 AM
According to the Mormon Church, John the Apostle is still roaming the earth, having never died. Along with John the Three Nephites (who were supposedly appointed apostles by Jesus in the New World) are also still alive. If this is true, how could there have been a total apostasy of the Church established by Jesus Christ? Joseph Smith didn't have to restore anything since four of Christ's apostles still walked the earth according to Mormonism!

This article by Bill McKeever deals with this issue: http://www.mrm.org/surviving-apostles

These are the kind of questions we need Mormons to confront and think about.

One Bad Pig
07-24-2015, 10:29 AM
Even apostles can apostasize, like Judas. Didn't Joseph Smith boast at one point that he was better than Jesus, because none of his apostles had apostasized?

Doctrine Matters
07-24-2015, 11:37 AM
Even apostles can apostasize, like Judas. Didn't Joseph Smith boast at one point that he was better than Jesus, because none of his apostles had apostasized?

Joseph Smith, ever the bragger said, "God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. " History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

Of course this was patently false since many Mormons left his church in Kirtland, Ohio, after Smith's bank fraud activity.

Cow Poke
07-24-2015, 12:07 PM
Even apostles can apostasize, like Judas. Didn't Joseph Smith boast at one point that he was better than Jesus, because none of his apostles had apostasized?

I think that was just before his wife gave him a beatdown for running a bar in the hotel he owned. :smug:

Cow Poke
07-24-2015, 12:09 PM
The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. "

I believe some of the members of the mob that killed him were his own followers who had finally "had it up to here". :smile:

Doctrine Matters
07-24-2015, 12:14 PM
I think that was just before his wife gave him a beatdown for running a bar in the hotel he owned. :smug:

Yeah, Joe wasn't known for keeping the supposedly God-revealed "Word of Wisdom."

One Bad Pig
07-24-2015, 07:25 PM
Joseph Smith, ever the bragger said, "God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. " History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409
This is not especially relevant to the point I was making.



Of course this was patently false since many Mormons left his church in Kirtland, Ohio, after Smith's bank fraud activity.
Was that quote uttered before or after Kirtland? Did the Kirtland bank scam drive away a majority or minority of his followers?

Christianbookworm
07-24-2015, 07:34 PM
Wait.. wouldn't it be obvious if some guys were still around after thousands of years?

One Bad Pig
07-24-2015, 07:46 PM
Wait.. wouldn't it be obvious if some guys were still around after thousands of years?
Not necessarily. Read Poul Anderson's Boat of a Million Years sometime.

Doctrine Matters
07-25-2015, 06:58 AM
This is not especially relevant to the point I was making.

Was that quote uttered before or after Kirtland? Did the Kirtland bank scam drive away a majority or minority of his followers?

Actually, about a month before Smith's demise!

Doctrine Matters
07-25-2015, 07:00 AM
Wait.. wouldn't it be obvious if some guys were still around after thousands of years?

Well, if four of Christ's Apostles were still living they'd be leading the Church, right? Not allowing it to drift into total apostasy until the occultist, Joe Smith, was visited by a dead spirit (Moroni) who had become an angel (humans do not become angels other than in Swedenborgianism and folk religion), and told where to dig up gold or golden or shiny or whatever plates.