Has there ever been a christian that got you thinking?

[Bagger_Vance]

I can say with all honesty that not one I've read on TWEBB has ever shook my foundations in the least but being a former christian I can say that a couple at least made good arguments at the time.

I think CS Lewis who gets hammered here and rightly so. In some ways he deserves to be discredited but he is also insanely clever, humorous, and fun to read. I think his great skill was making you want to believe that he was right. He could paint a landscape that made you want to be a part of it if for nothing else just to hang out with him. At least that is what I think.

Another for me was/is Ravi Zacharias. When I was a christian he was the guy I listened too. I never put much stock in Hagee's charts, Hinn's spectacles, or Billy Graham's oratory skills. But Ravi was different. He is a smart guy. There is no denying that but sometimes I listen to him and I wonder how he is unable to direct his highly perceptive mind onto his on faith. You see him skewer Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the like with high degrees of accuracy but it seems his blinders come on as soon as he discusses christianity. In a lot of ways I think Ravi helped me deconvert by showing me how baseless religion was. He just didn't mean for me to take his tools and turn them on Christianity.

What about you guys?

[robrecht]

Hey, Bagger. I don't know any of the people you mentioned 'cept Lewis.

But I just noticed your Woody Guthrie guitar avatar. Cool. Have you ever heard his "Jesus Christ" rewrite of "Jesse James"? Like that song. Brilliant song.

[robrecht]

No but I absolutely have to hear it! I love Woody Guthrie. Pure genius. Is it on any of his CD collections that you can buy?I have it somewhere on cassette, which was a compilation of a lot of his songs so I'm sure it's available. I combined the two different versions and play it on guitar so I actually haven't listened to him singing it for quite some time.

U2 has a great rock version on this tribute album (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000026HV/002-5786308-8383203?v=glance&n=5174)

Here's a link to the lyrics:
http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/3448/jesus.html

Part of the beauty of the song is the way it plays off the Jesse James song on which it is based.

[robrecht]

Here's one of Woody's versions:

http://www.smithsonianglobalsound.org/trackdetail.aspx?itemid=34499

A good antidote for most Christian pop music drivel!

[BeHereNow]

Yeah, I have to agree with you regarding the Christianity displayed at TWeb, but that could have something to do with the nature of message boards. I'm not really touched by non-Christians here, either.

There was one Christian who made a tremendous, life-changing impact on me. It was several years ago when I'd been in the hospital, detained for three days due to multiple suicide attempts. I was in the room, strapped to the bed with a cop watching me, listening to the doctor discuss with my parents the necessity of sending me to a psychiatric ward (Peace River...) for an indefinite period. At that time, I was finally able to see myself from an outside perspective. I realized I needed serious help, but most of all I just wanted things to go back to "normal". I did not want to go to a place that would surely have worsened my condition.

Soon, a pastor from a local church I'd attended a few times arrived to talk to me. He said he could help me, but only if I was serious about wanting it. I had to convince him up and down that I wanted him to help me, and at one point he about said no because he questioned my sincerity. When it was all said and done, he performed a Word of Faith style (it's a charismatic denomination, for those who don't know) exorcism on me. It was mind-blowing. The idea was to cast out my demons.

I felt marvelous. My whole mind was instantly transformed, and has been in the same state of exuberance since that day. At first, I whole-heartedly "dedicated my life to God". I was in church non-stop, doing a lot of praying and reading, etc. etc. until one day, a few weeks later, I woke up an atheist. Like.. the clarity of mind that pastor helped me achieve woke me up to reality, as I see it.

No one believes me when I tell them this is how my clinically diagnosed level II bi-polar disorder was absolved. A pastor casting out demons? But BHN, you're an atheist, and besides, BPD can't be cured. What are you on about?

I don't believe in literal demons, of course. There are no little spooky dookies floating about causing mischief and offering bad advice. But, I've done a good bit of cross-cultural sociological research (particularly ethnography) as well as some anthropological studies, and I've come to the conclusion that the power of faith/belief is nearly insurmountable. It's not so much what you have faith in, just that you have it. Notice earlier where I said the pastor wouldn't (be able to) help me if I lacked faith even one bit.

The medical doctrine of BPD being incurable is pathetic and sad. This fervent preacher proved that to me.

So that's my story about the most important Christian to touch my life.

There have been many others, but the one will do.

[robrecht]

That's a really interesting story and perspective, BeHereNow.

So would you now say that you have faith in yourself? Faith in others? Faith in reality as it really is?

[mithy73]

Interesting story, BHN. I was particularly taken with this bit, which just happens to be one of the axioms of my worldview:


I've done a good bit of cross-cultural sociological research (particularly ethnography) as well as some anthropological studies, and I've come to the conclusion that the power of faith/belief is nearly insurmountable. It's not so much what you have faith in, just that you have it.

That axiom, as far as I can tell, is happily supported by my observations of the effects on the adherents of a number of belief-systems of their beliefs, as well as some of my own forays into that particular area.

[WaterOfOblivion]

The last 15 years of my life have been the greatest period of doctrinal change. I change in the face of "hostile fire" and acknowledge to that person that I have done so. A healthy intellectual life and spirtual life means that you regularly suspend disbelief and see it from the other point of view. This doesn't mean I do it about all things all the time. Some arguments are mere repetitions of ones I have been through many times before.

This area is for non-theists only. Please review thread and forum rules before posting. Thanks.

[BeHereNow]

That's a really interesting story and perspective, BeHereNow.

So would you now say that you have faith in yourself? Faith in others? Faith in reality as it really is?

I've given that question a lot of thought, sure. There was a period of about a year wherein I had faith in faith. A lot of strange things happened to me during that time, which a religious person would describe with religious terminology. For example, being in a hurry and able to type an unknown password without thinking about it, or sharing thoughts with a friend without speaking. Things of that nature happened a bit.

After about a year or so of revelling in this new discovery, I sort of settled down into a comfort zone. Where I am now is a place of no faith, but rather peaceful assurance. Inexplicable things don't happen to me anymore, and I'm quite content with that.

[EvoUK]

I'm not in a very religious area, so christianity has always been a non-issue here, and I've never been touched by it in any way shape or form.

On TWeb, I find the idea that christians who actually believe that there was an Ark and the world is a couple thousand years old would ever intellectually make me think about my position to be quite laughable. Well, that's not entirely true- just because they're self-evidently laughably wrong about one thing doesn't mean that they're wrong about everything else does it?

Regardless, none of the "intellectual" arguments for their version of their god have ever stuck a cord nor have they ever made me blink when reading them, other than when the claims are particulary outrageous. I think several people who claim to have the absolute truth about what is supposedly the same faith/morality etc disagreeing with each other to be particulary funny, and has done little to warm me towards the general cult they claim share.

[mentored1]

:demure:

I spent round about 5 years as Bible Baptist - even preached and taught a few lessons. I can't say I ever encountered a Christian that shook me up or showed me something inexplicable. I've seen healings, tongues, and so forth but I already suspected the mind's ability to affect the body in "mysterious" ways.

This may sound overly ironic but my "Christian Self" had the greatest impact on me. In retrospect, remembering being born-again, I can see the transformation that I accepted or initiated and its fairly incredible. It grants a good deal of respect for one's own ability to alter one's own consciousness.

Given the proper tools and the right circumstance you can quite literally transform your personality - and consquently transform how you view the world. That's power; and it's locked right inside this calcium encrusted information sponge.

Having been in that place I've preached what's being preached - I've not seen anything new; only variations on the same messages. Any spiritual system, any religion, can have that affect. I think the bare reason there are so many species of religion is akin to why there are so many tools or languages - we all need that moment where we can glimpse eternity: but we need the right tool and the right time.

Take care

[neonmagek]

I haven't really had anyone get me thinking in TWeb that really got me thinking yet either. I have had a few Christians who have won debates against me or had it so I had to think hard about something, but it has not been very often and it is no one anyone in here would know about. The topics they had me thinking hard about was, some of what was meant in the Bible when so and so was saying "x". Another one is why certian races are statisticly differant than each other with say, income. When I was a Christian I did not have interest in debate and I didn't feel a need to go to others for information very often. I figured, I was intelligent enough to figure it out for my self and there was no need for debate because I just KNEW I was right (now I realize It is possible for me to be wrong on just about anything).