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apostoli
07-25-2015, 06:10 AM
Hello 37818 & Pentecost,

This is a split from here ('http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?7727-37818-Who-resuuected-Jesus&p=220789&viewfull=1#post220789').



Have a read of all of Romans 8, it talks of us having the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God (particularly contemplate vs9) plus a load of other spirits.I think you're wrong here. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ, and is the Spirit of the Father, and the Spirit of Life (for our God is God of the living, and not the dead), the Spirit of adoption, these are all names/titles for the same person. I cannot understand how from a reading of Romans 8 you get many spirits particularly with verse 9 that gives up the ghost (pardon the pun) where it says that the Spirit of God is in us, and contrasts against those who don't have the Spirit of Christ; further verse 10 says the Spirit of Christ is in us. So then would we have more than one Spirit within us? Of course not. They are he same Spirit!

“And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
**Ezekiel‬ *36:26-27‬ *ESV‬‬
http://bible.com/59/ezk.36.26-27.esv

...I had to reply because unless I misunderstood you, you have a very strange pneumatology.I was referring to the use of "πνεῦμα" throughout Romans 8, which is why I encouraged 37818 to "Have a read of all of Romans 8..."

In anycase you got me thinking. When I replied to 37818 in connection with "Who resurrected Jesus?", I had only done a cursory revision (read) of Romans 8:9-16 and was largely working from memory. So as a remedial excercise I've embarked on a study of Romans 8 and its use of the word "πνεῦμα".

Below is a work in progess but I present it now to give you an insight regarding my thoughts on the Parakletos who Jesus calls the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). I am fully open to correction and guidence, in fact I would welcome such! Well, as long as any criticisms etc are based on appeals to the scriptures and not dogmatics ;-}.

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Notes on the usage of "πνεύμα" in Romans 8:1-16

I am RCC and so adhere to the Nicean teaching of the Trinity. I'm not alone, most Christian ecclesia adhere to the teaching of the Nicean Trinity which holds that there are three distinct hypostases (persons) that are homoousios (consubstantal), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is essential to Nicean teaching that the distinction between the three hypostases (persons) be protected at all times.

Note: Apart from my Orthodox Trinitarian beliefs, the only prejudice I deliver to this study, that pre-empts this study, is that A.Paul was not compiling a book of dogmatics or theological premises but was delivering a pastoral message. So what was his message???


The Scofield Reference Bible of 1967 notes that prior to chapter 8 the Holy Spirit is mentioned only at Romans 5:5. "Romans 3:21-5:11 speaks of the redemptive price; chapter 8 speaks of the redemptive power".

Surveying the entire book of Romans: the id "πνεύματος ἁγίου" = "the Holy Spirit" only occurs at Romans 5:5; 8:9; 9:1; 14:17; 15:13 & 15:16. Otherwise, the word "πνεύμα" = "the spirit" occurs 29 times with different connotations or emphasis. At Romans 2:29 & 7:26 "the spirit" is contrasted with the letter of Moses' law (cp. 8:1-8). At Romans 8:16 we encounter "the Spirit" and "our spirit". At Romans 8:9, 14 & 15:19 we encounter "the Spirit of God". At Romans 8:9 we encounter "the Spirit of Christ". At Romans 8:11 we encounted "the Spirit of Him/His Spirit. We also encounter "my spirit" (1:9); "the Spirit of holiness" (1:4); "the spirit of stupor" (11:8); "the spirit of life" (8:2); "the spirit of bondage" (8:15); "the spirit of adoption" (8:15); "fervent in Spirit" (12:11). That leaves 14 occurances of the word "spirit" that either refer to a motivating force within a person (eg: 8:16) or are obvious references to the Holy Spirit (eg: 8:16, 26, 27).

Surveying Romans 8: the id "πνεύματος ἁγίου" = "the Holy Spirit" only occurs at Romans 8:9. However, it is obvious that 8:16,26 & 27 directly refer to the person (hypostasis) of the Holy Spirit = the Parakletos (see below).

8:1,4,13 walking...according to the spirit
8:2 the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
8:5 live according to the Spirit
8:9 you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you
8:9 if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
8:10 if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness
8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
8:14-15 as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
8:23 we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit...[are] eagerly waiting [our] adoption = the redemption of our body.
8:26-27 the Spirit intercedes for us

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Personal Opinion - the "Spirit" in the OT & NT

On the basis of John 7:21 and the fact that scripture depicts the Father, Son, Parakletos and us as distinct hypostases (persons), I advocate that the Father, Son and the Parakletos are extenal to us but the three are intimately active in our lives. In respect of us, our co-inherence (the perichoresis) with the Father and the Son is dependent on the Parakletos' activity amounst us. Imo, in these last days, the Parakletos' role is to educates us, help us to develop the experential knowledge of the Father and the Son, that is required to obtain eternal life (cp. John 17:3), and intervene on our behalf when we waver in faith or actually sin (cp. John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15).

At John 14:26 Jesus refers to the Parakletos as "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name".

In the OT and before Pentecost the Paraclete was invisible to the world, and the world was ignorant of him (cp. John 14:17). The OT largely depicts "the spirit" as an impersonal "active force" - God empowering this one or that according to his disposition.

Consider Numbers 11:17, 25-26, 29 where we learn that the Spirit of God had been fully invested in Moses, but at Moses' request, YHWH relieved Moses of the burdens involved in managing the affairs of state as follows: "[YHWH] took of the Spirit that was upon [Moses], and placed the same upon the seventy elders [that Moses had chosen. Though only 68 elders had turned up at the tabernacle to received the annointing, 70 elders began prophesing]; it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again". Two elders, Eldad and Medad, who had been chosen by Moses to be amoungst the seventy, had not gone to the Tabernacle to receive the annointing (see Numbers 11:14-17, 24-29). Never-the-less, we are told that "the Spirit rested upon them". Joshua was so outraged by Eldad and Medad prophesing that he petitioned Moses to stop them! Moses responded "Are you zealous for my sake? Oh, that all YHWH’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them!"

Apart from empowering people (usually prophets or Kings), YHWH's spirit is depicted as vexing people (eg: King Saul). In the OT we also read of YHWH responding to the "spirit" of nations, persons, Satan etc. My cursory survey of the OT observes that apart from the idea of "spirit" as an "active force", the word is also used to describe someone's "motivation" or something internal to the person (eg: spirit of jealousy).

On a cursory examination of the OT, I have yet to detect the concept of YHWH endowing anyone with his Spirit for the purpose of personal development or direct engagement with himself. However, from the NT I observe that the Paracletos is a real hypostasis (person) who like Jesus was sent to motivate us to change our lives and attract eternal life...

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The Parakletos

At John 14:26 Jesus refers to the Parakletos as "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name".

There is no consensus as to how the word should be translated into English. The KJV, ESV, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB render Comforter; NKJV, NASB = Helper; NLT, NET, NIV = Advocate; RSV, HCSB, HNV = Counselor. At 1 John 2:1 most translations render Advocate (DBY = Patron; HNV = Counselor).

Various writers I've come across describe the Parakletos as a "Mr Fix It" (much like a mechanic or electrician). I don't think such fully accords with the scriptural witness. From Jesus' description of the Parakletos' function I see the Parakletos as an educator (cp. John 14:26 "He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you"). From John 14:16 with Romans 8:26 I also perceive the Parakletos as our spritual guide, our helper and our advocate as we stand before the judgement-seat.

Many years ago, I thought of the Parakletos as our Lawyer/Barrister, but imu that isn't quite the correct analogy. These days I contemplate him as our "character witness" cp. John 15:26, "...the Parakletos...shall testify about me [Jesus]"; also see 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is described as "the parakletos with the Father". In our case, I contemplate the Parakletos as our "character witness" at our pre-sentencing trial - we've already been found guilty (cp. Rom 3:23), now the recompense is to be determined.

Of interest: At John 14:16 Jesus promises "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Parakletos to help you and be with you forever." While on earth Jesus was the disciples Parakletos, but he was soon to depart, so he promised another Parakletos would be sent who would remain with them forever. However, if you sin, be comforted, for in heaven, Jesus Christ pleads our case before the Father", just as the Paracletos that was sent to us intercedes between us and the Son.

Imu, the Parakletos has also the function of inspiring us to seek an intimate relationship with the Father and his Son. John 17:3 comes to mind: "this is eternal life, ἵνα γινώσκωσιν σὲ, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

ἵνα γινώσκωσιν σὲ = that they may γινώσκω you. Ginōskō refers to experential knowledge, not intellectual, intuitive or experimental knowledge. That is: ginōskō refers to a knowledge that can only be derived from the direct experience of participating in an intimate relationship.

Imu, whilst many people are shy of approaching the Son in an intimate manner (and even moreso the Father), should we call on the Parakletos for assistence (cp. Rom 8:26; John 14:26; 16:13-15), the Parakletos will tutor us and give us confidence to take the first steps, and guide us as our relationship matures.

Some "christian" groups perceive the Parakletos as a non-entity, an "active force", an emanation that proceeds from the Father through the Son (cp. John 14:26; 15:26; 16:17) or from the Father and the Son (cp. Rev 22:1), or exclusively from the Father (cp. John 15:26). However, the apostle John makes it plain that the Parakletos has a real and concrete subsistence (has hypostasis). He is sent, just as Jesus was sent, and just as the Son possesses all the Father possesses, so the Parakleos possesses all that the Son possesses (John 16:14-15). Thus the Nicean churches accept scriptures' witness and recognise the Parakletos as having a real and concrete subsistence (has hypostasis), whose source and cause, like the Son, is exclusively of the Father, and as such the Parakletos is homoousios (consubstantial) with the Father and the Son.

There are "christian" groups that accept that the Parakletos has hypostasis but reject the teaching of homoousios. such groups hold that the Parakletos is a creation of the Son (cp. John 1:3).
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Romans 8:1-8

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God".

Imu, in vs1-8 A.Paul is not refering to the Parakletos (John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15) but is contrasting the "motivating force" of two distinct types of people: those with a material mindset versus those who have a spiritual mindset. Imo, those with a spiritual mindset are nurtured by the Parakletos (cp. Rom 8:16, 26-27).

Most commentators I've come across make mention that Romans 7 introduces Romans 8 and should be studied as a precursor to understanding Romans 8. At Romans 7:14,22-25 A.Paul says "we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin...I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin".

I am disposed to considering that the Decalogue which YHWH had handed to Moses, and which Moses smashed to pieces is the "law of God" which A.Paul says he serves, but instead of following it to the letter he obeys the spirit of its intent. When questioned about which is the greatest commandments in the law Jesus answered: "The first is this: you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:29-31; Matthew 22:36-40). Imo, the law of God that A.Paul served was/is the law of Love (cp.1 John 4:8,16). Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God...".

Romans 7:5-6 indicate to me that A.Paul considered Moses' ordinances "the law of sin and death", presumably if followed to the letter. Taking literary licence I'll summarise my understanding of chapter 7 via a mixed verse paraphrase: For although we know that the law is spiritual, we are carnal, sold under sin, and so we ignored the intent of the law which was to draw us closer to God and instead set our hearts on following the law to the letter [causing others to stumble us if they missed one iota]. We didn't understand why we did the opposite to what we wanted to do [which was to draw closer to God]. But then we were in the flesh and had put ourselves under the letter of the law, but now we have become dead to the flesh and so dead to the law, through [the death and resurrection of Jesus] Christ, and are now espoused to him, so that we should bear fruit to God. (cp. 7:5-6, 14-15).

Romans 8:2 compares "the law of sin and death" with "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (cp. 1 John 3:). The phrase "Spirit of life" is unique to this verse. However, the sentiment of vs2 is reflected in Galatians 6:8 "For he who sows to his flesh, will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit, will of the Spirit reap everlasting life". I think here the "Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" refers to the ecclesia which houses the Holy Spirit (cp Romans 16; 1 Cor 6:19) and "the law" thereof refers to the law of love within the congregation.

What is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus? I answer the law of love. Contemplate 1 John 3:11 "For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another...We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers and sisters. He who does not love abides in death."
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Romans 8:9-10

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His [NIV: they do not belong to Christ]. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.". The NIV renders "the Spirit gives life"; the NASB, HNV renders "the Spirit is alive".

Notice the qualification, we can only be in the Spirit if we have the indwelling of God the Father's Spirit (nb: A.Paul with few exceptions, if any, in all his epistles equates "God" with God the Father, and equates "the Lord" with Jesus Christ. cp. Rom 1:7). Likewise to belong to Jesus Christ we must have the Spirit of Christ indwelling in us. John 17:19-21 comes immediately to mind "...for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us..."

Scripture depicts the Father, Son, Parakletos and us as distinct hypostases (persons), so imo John 17:19-21 is not refering to a union of hypostases (persons), but a spiritual communication between us that binds our co-inherence (the perichoresis). I perceive the Parakletos as the glue that maintains our union with the Father and the Son through his various roles in education and support.

You are...in the Spirit, if... the Spirit of God dwells in you. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 4:15-16: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him".

if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 3:14,16 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brotherfn abides in death...By this we know love, because [the Son] laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren..."

To be continued...

37818
07-26-2015, 07:19 PM
You are...in the Spirit, if... the Spirit of God dwells in you. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 4:15-16: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him".

if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 3:14,16 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brotherfn abides in death...By this we know love, because [the Son] laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren..."


What does it mean?

There is no middle ground. Either one now possesses eternal life or one is yet lost.

"And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

apostoli
08-07-2015, 10:59 PM
Here is the last instalment to my study of Romans 8:1-16...Depending on what comments I get, I may revise it in the future....
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Romans 8:9

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His [NIV: they do not belong to Christ]. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.". The NIV renders "the Spirit gives life"; the NASB, HNV renders "the Spirit is alive".

Notice the qualification, we can only be in the Spirit if we have the indwelling of God the Father's Spirit (nb: A.Paul with few exceptions, if any, in all his epistles equates "God" with God the Father, and equates "the Lord" with Jesus Christ. cp. Rom 1:7). Likewise to belong to Jesus Christ we must have the Spirit of Christ indwelling in us. John 17:19-21 comes immediately to mind "...for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us..."

Scripture depicts the Father, Son, Parakletos and us as distinct hypostases (persons), so imo John 17:19-21 is not refering to a union of hypostases (persons), but a spiritual communication between us that binds our co-inherence (the perichoresis). I perceive the Parakletos as the glue that maintains our union with the Father and the Son through his various roles in education and support.

You are...in the Spirit, if... the Spirit of God dwells in you. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 4:15-16: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him".

if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. What does this mean? Compare 1 John 3:14,16 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death...By this we know love, because [the Son] laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren..."
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Romans 8:10

"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."


I can see an argument that the Spirit of Christ is not the Spirit of God because verse 10 speaks of Christ being in you, and we both agree Christ is not the Spirit, nor is the Spirit Christ.

However, chapter 8 is contrasting flesh and death, with Spirit and life see verses 5,6 in verse 9 it is explained that the Spirit is in fact the Spirit of God the dwells in believers, the second half of verse 9 and verse 10 seem to teach that the Spirit of Christ is in those who have life. So the Spirit of life is the Spirit of God, and "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Meaning the Spirit of Christ when it is in the believer, is the Spirit of life. If there is only one Spirit of life, and the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God are both it, then the Spirit of Christ IS the Spirit of God.

The only negation of this conclusion I can see is if there is more than one spirit of life, which I don't see claimed within the text.

Pentecost, I think you are over thinking what A.Paul is saying (or maybe I am).

the Spirit is life because of righteousness In my opinion vs10 just reiterates vs1. The Spirit in this verse I take to mean our mentality, or more particularly our heart (cp. vs27 "He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is"). I take the "righteousness" is our righteousness in Christ.

Consider us having the Spirit of God in the light of 1 John 4:8-11 "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another".

Notice what A.Paul teaches concerning love and the Spirit at Romans 8:27-39. Especially notice vs27 & 28.

Another thought that came to be was to reflect on Matthew 22:31-32 "...concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living". At Genesis 15:1-6 (cp. Galatians 3:6; James 2:23; Genesis 18:19) we learn that because YHWH promised Abraham that he would have a heir from his own body and Abraham believed YHWH, YHWH credited Abraham belief as righteousness.

This led to my next thought: if we believe God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are promised that we would also be resurrected, then our faith is counted as righteousness to us (?).

I had a look at several commentaries, except for one, they had no comment on this text...Jamieson, Fausset & Brown :: Commentary on Romans 8 has this to offer...

[/i]The word "indeed," which the original requires, is of the nature of a concession--"I grant you that the body is dead. . . and so far redemption is incomplete, but," &c.; that is, "If Christ be in you by His indwelling Spirit, though your 'bodies' have to pass through the stage of 'death' in consequence of the first Adam's 'sin,' your spirit is instinct with new and undying 'life,' brought in by the 'righteousness' of the second Adam" [THOLUCK, MEYER, and ALFORD in part, but only HODGE entirely].[/i]
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Romans 8:11

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you". Most translations render "through his Spirit". However, some translations have a note that "some manuscripts have 'because of his Spirit'" - So the rendering in the NIV (DBY renders 'on account of his Spirit'). The KJV, WEB & NLT render "by his Spirit".

the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you. My first thought was the ambiguity of "the Spirit of Him" pointed towards the Trinity, but I don't perceive that as fitting the whole sentence. To me, this text refers back to vs9's "if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you", adding in vs11 "who raised Jesus from the dead". I understand A.Paul as saying Jesus was raised via the Spirit of God (or per some mss because of the Spirit of God). I query why A.Paul wasn't as specific in vs11 as he was in Verse 10.

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown :: Commentary on Romans 8...

if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you--that is, "If He dwell in you as the Spirit of the Christ-raising One," or, "in all the resurrection-power which He put forth in raising Jesus."

he that raised up Christ from the dead--Observe the change of name from Jesus, as the historical Individual whom God raised from the dead, to CHRIST, the same Individual, considered as the Lord and Head of all His members, or of redeemed Humanity [ALFORD].
shall also quicken--rather, "shall quicken even" your mortal bodies by--the true reading appears to be "by reason of."

his Spirit that dwelleth in you--"Your bodies indeed are not exempt from the death which sin brought in; but your spirits even now have in them an undying life, and if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, even these bodies of yours, though they yield to the last enemy and the dust of them return to the dust as it was, shall yet experience the same resurrection as that of their living Head, in virtue of the indwelling of same Spirit in you that quickened Him."
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Romans 8:12-13

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

This is A.Paul's constant theme from Romans 6 through Romans 8. Allowing worldly persuits (flesh) to dominate you, will kill you. Pursuing Spiritual pursuits will save you. Imo, here "Spirit" is refering to our mentality / hearts.

Also compare Galations 6:7,8; Ephesians 5:6; Phllippians 3:18,19; 1 John 3:7,8.
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Romans 8:14-15

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”".

cry out, “Abba, Father.” Compare Galatians 4:3-6 "because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, Abba, Father!”
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Romans 8:16

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together".

Imo, this is where we first encounter the Holy Spirit in Romans 8. In previous verses A.Paul is talking about "our sprit".

Pentecost
08-07-2015, 11:32 PM
I fear in my following post that I do not address you point for point, but I hope it gives insight into my position and why I hold it.

Apostoli, you use excellent reasoning, but I do not think your understanding of the Spirit is large enough.

For example, in your opening thread you noted that the Greek refers to knowing through experience the helper being sent by Jesus, which what us Pentecostals consider to be our most defining characteristic, that we feel the Spirit, and witness Him act in dramatic ways. We have a high emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit listen in 1 Corinthians 12 that we consider to be available and normative for Christian living. I know that there are some Roman Catholics whom share this understand, although I do not know if you are one.

In our music we often speak directly to God, and many songs include requests that we be made more aware of the Holy Spirit, and that His power is released amongst us.

I speak from experience when I say that it is possible to feel Him all around you, and that the experience can bring you to your knees crying, or jumping for joy, and that can happen to people side by side. It is dramatic and freeing, and none are distracted by another, and all are wholly focused upon worship so we do not consider this in violation of 1 Corinthians 14.

But the presence of the Holy Spirit produces fruit, as per Galatians 5, and in the day to day lives of people, even simply patience, or gentleness where once it was lacking, is breathtaking.

What do these experience in conjunction with Scripture mean? To my understanding, it's that the Holy Spirit is not a "force" like JWs believe, but instead He HAS force.

In the other thread I mentioned that eschatologically I consider my spirit to have been replaced by the Holt Spirit and now that I have a new Spirit, I am forever changed and my salvation has been sealed.

References to any spirit in Romans 8:1-16 could mean the spirit of a particular believer, but in my view, that is the same Holy Spirit, who is in all of us Christians, but He is not ONLY in us, He is in the world around us, He groans to the Father on our behalf, and convicting unbelievers of their sin, drawing them closer to God. This is all in addition to whatever mysterious workings that unite the Godhead.

apostoli
08-08-2015, 12:02 AM
Hi Pentecost,

I'll think on your response more later and get back to you after I have digested it. For now a couple of comments concerning the RCC viewpoint as I understand it...



I fear in my following post that I do not address you point for point, but I hope it gives insight into my position and why I hold it.OK


I know that there are some Roman Catholics whom share this understand, although I do not know if you are one. In the 1970s, around the time of the Billy Graham crusades, there was a large Charismatic movement in the RCC which as I recall was neither supported nor resisted officially by the Church. As I recall it was seen as a lay movement. Officially, the church has always recognised Charismata, which is sought of different with a wider application.


To my understanding, it's that the Holy Spirit is not a "force" like JWs believe, but instead He HAS force.From the experience of A.Paul the Holy Spirit can be forceful. However, in my understanding of RCC teaching, but more particularly my personal experience, the Holy Spirit is a nurturer. No ecstatic experience necessary to feel his presence, just a slow, patient prodding along to prepare us for the great wedding of Christ, when through marriage to our groom we become adopted into the family of God. Of course I'm using Biblical metaphor here, drawn from the book of Revelation and elsewhere in the NT.


In the other thread I mentioned that eschatologically I consider my spirit to have been replaced by the Holt Spirit and now that I have a new Spirit, I am forever changed and my salvation has been sealed.Hmm. I think more along the lines of Romans 8:26-27 and therefore Ezekiel 18:31; 36:26 "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die,"


References to any spirit in Romans 8:1-16 could mean the spirit of a particular believer, but in my view, that is the same Holy Spirit, who is in all of us ChristiansNotice Romans 8:16 "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit..."

Pentecost
08-08-2015, 12:17 AM
Good points, I don't really disagree with you here, I am simply being ineloquent.

Edit: I'll come back in the morning when I'm more aware. I'll bring with my my bible and at least one scholarly work from the Pentecostal tradition instead of whatever my tired mind came up with.

Pentecost
08-15-2015, 10:22 PM
Apostoli, if you're curious, I explained my disappearance in the prayer request/praise report section. Apologies.

apostoli
08-17-2015, 12:50 AM
Apostoli, if you're curious, I explained my disappearance in the prayer request/praise report section. Apologies.I wish you well at college. Hope things settle down quickly for you. I'm not a prayerful type guy as such. I tend to have conversations instead. Like: here is my problem Father, what can I do about it...but...but...but..(imitation of a outboard motor continuing as I do a Moses :smile:). Ultimately, I always end up with a resolution...So if things get a bit lonely or overwhelming find a quite place and have a conversation...

Not as good, but you can always whinge to me. My door is always open :smile: