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Doctrine Matters
07-26-2015, 09:27 AM
Mormonism has had its hay day, but those days are over. People grow up intellectually. They don't buy into modern "prophets" who supposedly speak for God. They've seen the Koresh and Jones debacles. They are far more sophisticated than early credulous followers of Joe Smith - education does count. Here are some reasons Mormonism is on its way out:

1. The internet has exposed many things about Mormonism that stop people dead in their tracks if they are considering it as a religious choice.
2. Mormonism does not appeal to those with any intellectual capabilities. It appeals to the "gut" and to the "warm fuzzyists," but not to thinking people.
3. Mormonism stands or falls with Joseph Smith - and he has been proven to be a liar, a womanizer (look at the "essays") and somebody that people of today really don't consider to be the idolatrous object worthy of praise which Mormons have always imputed to Smith.
4. Young people on the whole aren't into the restrictions and demands Mormonism imposes.
5. White Disneyworld type temples turn off a lot of people in today's economy where you have so many homeless and needy.
6. Thanks to Newnamenoah, Mormon temple rites have been exposed and are seen by many as a Masonic-based charade. Freemasonry was the model of the temple rites, and it's in decline as well.

That's just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head.

Catholicity
07-27-2015, 12:20 PM
Actually, there are still a lot of converts into mormonism. However I think Mormonism has made an attempt to go more "mainstream" so much so that it looks like Catholicism to outsiders and that's where its majority of new converts come from (cafeteria catholics.) It also sort of makes the attempt to bury its cult like past, so much so that no one really denies its so called secrets, it just kind of rolls with the mains stream now it appears.

KingsGambit
07-29-2015, 06:05 AM
Mormonism is still booming numbers-wise so it remains to be seen whether these will play out. Roger Olson's (a Baptist who does not consider Mormons Christians) prediction is interesting. He thinks Mormonism will head in a more orthodox direction in coming decades.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/baptist-scholar-says-mormonism-is-evolving-toward-becoming-christian-denomination-with-biblical-evangelical-view-of-christ-and-salvation-140518/

Christianbookworm
07-29-2015, 06:12 AM
Mormonism is still booming numbers-wise so it remains to be seen whether these will play out. Roger Olson's (a Baptist who does not consider Mormons Christians) prediction is interesting. He thinks Mormonism will head in a more orthodox direction in coming decades.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/baptist-scholar-says-mormonism-is-evolving-toward-becoming-christian-denomination-with-biblical-evangelical-view-of-christ-and-salvation-140518/

Like lose the sci-fi/fantasy element of human aliens that can turn into gods given the right conditions? Wait, did I just make another joke about aliens with superpowers that look just like humans?

KingsGambit
07-29-2015, 06:16 AM
Like lose the sci-fi/fantasy element of human aliens that can turn into gods given the right conditions? Wait, did I just make another joke about aliens with superpowers that look just like humans?

That would be a good start, yes.

I think it's highly unlikely, but there is a precedent for an entire cult going orthodox (the Worldwide Church of God becoming Grace Communion International). However, it was much, much smaller than the LDS.

Doctrine Matters
08-02-2015, 11:55 AM
Actually, there are still a lot of converts into mormonism. However I think Mormonism has made an attempt to go more "mainstream" so much so that it looks like Catholicism to outsiders and that's where its majority of new converts come from (cafeteria catholics.) It also sort of makes the attempt to bury its cult like past, so much so that no one really denies its so called secrets, it just kind of rolls with the mains stream now it appears.

The average convert lasts less than a year. The "growth" is mostly in third world countries where Mormon "missionaries" capitalize on the hard work of Christian missionaries who have preached the Gospel. My daughter and family do missionary work in Zambia and the Mormons will come in and lure the poor new Christians away. Also, Mormons tend to have more children than non-Mormons, and new babies are projected by the cult to be members, and are counted as such, even though they aren't baptized until age 8. If a person does not show up at a LDS Chapel for years and years, he is still counted as a member, even though he has left and is attending the Calvary Chapel down the street - a person must resign formerly to get off the membership rolls.

Doctrine Matters
08-02-2015, 12:08 PM
Mormonism is still booming numbers-wise so it remains to be seen whether these will play out. Roger Olson's (a Baptist who does not consider Mormons Christians) prediction is interesting. He thinks Mormonism will head in a more orthodox direction in coming decades.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/baptist-scholar-says-mormonism-is-evolving-toward-becoming-christian-denomination-with-biblical-evangelical-view-of-christ-and-salvation-140518/

I read that article and actually responded to it on Baptist News. It's simply not true. Mormonism hasn't become "more" Christian at all. It retains all of its core doctrines. It still teaches that God is an exalted man from another planet and that Jesus was the first spirit born to "heavenly father" and one of his wives. Satan being the second. Mormonism has simply changed its appearance. Hard liners like Dr. Peterson are no longer in control, and new, more charming, "apologists" have taken their place. It's a white wash. Their doctrinal stance has not changed at all. The Worldwide Church of God actually abandoned Arianism and embraced the Trinity. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of LDS has now become more Trinitarian and closer to orthodoxy. The Mormons put on lipstick and everybody thinks they've changed.

Regarding the cult's growth, see: http://www.mrm.org/fastest-growing-church

Doctrine Matters
08-02-2015, 12:40 PM
From a Free Republic website coverage of a news segment dealing with the issue:

"From the news segment: A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years...according to a recent Reuters article citing LDS General Authority Marlin K. Jensen, for the church as a whole, the record in going in a different direction. Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and "attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years." Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving. "I'm from Chile and a lot of people just stop attending, they take it a little bit too casual," said Francisco Jerez, LDS Church member. So how bad is it getting? Right now there are more than 14 million members of the church worldwide. But according to the article, sociologists estimate active membership may as few as only five million."

Janice
08-08-2015, 01:22 AM
If it was started by a true prophet of God instead of Joseph Smith, they wouldn't need to change their teachings and temple ordinances to keep converts or attract new ones.

Catherine Aurelia
08-14-2015, 12:05 PM
I find it interesting that you equate people growing intellectually to the rejection of modern prophets. Seems odd that a Christian would make the case for increased intelligence necessarily means a rejection of gospel truths.

Scorching Wizard
08-14-2015, 02:27 PM
If it was started by a true prophet of God instead of Joseph Smith, they wouldn't need to change their teachings and temple ordinances to keep converts or attract new ones.

Perhaps they need a Paul-like figure to stimulate the religion and make it grow.

Bill the Cat
08-14-2015, 02:49 PM
Perhaps they need a Paul-like figure to stimulate the religion and make it grow.

They had one. Two actually. Brigham Young and John Taylor.

Bill the Cat
08-14-2015, 02:53 PM
I find it interesting that you equate people growing intellectually to the rejection of modern prophets. Seems odd that a Christian would make the case for increased intelligence necessarily means a rejection of gospel truths.

The rejection of "modern prophets" of Mormonism is more about realizing their false doctrines than about growing in intellect. There are no "gospel truths" in Mormonism. Every doctrine pilfered from Christianity is warped by others that make them internally incoherent.

AlecWelsh
09-03-2015, 03:20 PM
Mormonism is still booming numbers-wise so it remains to be seen whether these will play out. Roger Olson's (a Baptist who does not consider Mormons Christians) prediction is interesting. He thinks Mormonism will head in a more orthodox direction in coming decades.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/baptist-scholar-says-mormonism-is-evolving-toward-becoming-christian-denomination-with-biblical-evangelical-view-of-christ-and-salvation-140518/

Mormons also take credit for baptism of the dead so they are likely not as high as one might think

The "LDS - Mormonism" section is theist only--see here (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/announcement.php?f=54). Thanks.

KingsGambit
09-16-2015, 07:33 AM
I read that article and actually responded to it on Baptist News. It's simply not true. Mormonism hasn't become "more" Christian at all. It retains all of its core doctrines. It still teaches that God is an exalted man from another planet and that Jesus was the first spirit born to "heavenly father" and one of his wives. Satan being the second. Mormonism has simply changed its appearance. Hard liners like Dr. Peterson are no longer in control, and new, more charming, "apologists" have taken their place. It's a white wash. Their doctrinal stance has not changed at all. The Worldwide Church of God actually abandoned Arianism and embraced the Trinity. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of LDS has now become more Trinitarian and closer to orthodoxy. The Mormons put on lipstick and everybody thinks they've changed.

Regarding the cult's growth, see: http://www.mrm.org/fastest-growing-church

I tend to agree that it would be difficult to retain the trappings of, really, anything and move toward orthodoxy. Maybe with an extreme form of accomodationism but I just don't see that happening with the majority of believers.

seven7up
12-12-2015, 01:22 PM
Like lose the sci-fi/fantasy element of human aliens that can turn into gods given the right conditions? Wait, did I just make another joke about aliens with superpowers that look just like humans?

Jesus Christ is an "Extraterrestrial"

Full Definition of EXTRATERRESTRIAL
: originating, existing, or occurring outside the earth or its atmosphere <extraterrestrial life>

Since Jesus, his spirit, did not come from the Earth, then he is an "alien".

Plus, he looks like a human (HE IS a Human) and had "superpowers".

I guess all of Christianity is "sci-fi/fantasy" ... according to your criteria anyways....

-7up

seven7up
12-12-2015, 02:10 PM
I tend to agree that it would be difficult to retain the trappings of, really, anything and move toward orthodoxy. Maybe with an extreme form of accomodationism but I just don't see that happening with the majority of believers.



I predict that "Christians" will become more "Mormon" in their doctrine, not the other way around.

Scholarship is moving that way.

-Look how Christians changed their view concerning those who die in childhood without baptism would be damned. (which led to the practice of infant baptism early on in Christian history. (Or even those adults who die without hearing the gospel of Christ at all... Are they all damned to hell for eternity? Take a survey of Christians today and compare it to history, you will see that this perspective has changed.)
-The "Social Trinitarinism" view is far closer to LDS theology than previous forms of Trinitiarianism (Moving to the idea 3 separate centers of consciousness).
-Look at Old Testament Scholar John H. Walton and his teaching that Genesis 1-2 is essentially a "Temple Text", which fits into Mormonism very well. He also proposes that God's creation is organizing pre-existing things to God's purpose... (http://www.blackhawkchurch.org/archive/sermon_resources/walton.pdf)
-The rejection of ex nihilo will be next in Christianity. We discussed this at length previously on this forum. Old Testament Jewish scholars like John Levenson (http://www.amazon.com/Creation-Persistence-Evil-Jon-Levenson/dp/0691029504) has advanced the idea of God creating from something rather than nothing. The Biblical exegesis of this was pounded out decades ago by Bruce K. Waltke (surprisingly published multiple times by the Western Conservative Baptist Seminary). David Ray Griffin and other Christian theologians came to realize the philosophical problem of evil that occurs with creation out of nothing, and try to deal with in in "process theology" (http://www.anthonyflood.com/griffincreationoutofchaos.htm), which necessarily has to reject ex nihilo. Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, (http://www.amazon.com/Creatio-Ex-Nihilo-Academic-Paperback/dp/056708356X) which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D. Oh, and Blake Ostler shut down William Lane Craig's attempt to hold on to "ex nihilo" in his extensive defense (http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/reviews-of-the-new-mormon-challenge); to which William Lane Craig and crew had no response.

Pretty soon; those number of Christians who believe in Ex Nihilo, will be akin to those who believe that the Earth was literally created in 7 , twenty four hour days. It is an indefensible position historically speaking, Biblically speaking, and philosophically speaking.

The Decline of Mormonism is only going to go along with of the Decline of spirituality altogether. Society is becoming more secular ... period. The mainstream Christians are partly to blame for that, because they present to the world a false form of Christianity which has a theodicy which is a philosophical nightmare .. again, which is impossible to defend, and thus is easy for the masses in society to reject.

Congratulations on that to all of you.

-7up

seven7up
12-12-2015, 02:21 PM
I find it interesting that you equate people growing intellectually to the rejection of modern prophets. Seems odd that a Christian would make the case for increased intelligence necessarily means a rejection of gospel truths.


Yeah,

"2. ---------------- does not appeal to those with any intellectual capabilities. It appeals to the "gut" and to the "warm fuzzyists," but not to thinking people."

Fill the blank with "Christianity". It works just as well.

Christians LOVE the idea that the Holy Spirit can confirm truth ... UNTIL it confirms to them that the LDS church is true. Then they just reject that whole silly Holy Spirit thing.


and number 5 on the list reminds me of something...

"5. White Disneyworld type temples turn off a lot of people in today's economy where you have so many homeless and needy."


Not only do LDS help the needy, but the person who started this thread should study the New Testament: John 12:4-6 .... he will find that he is playing the part of Judas.


-7up

seven7up
12-12-2015, 02:29 PM
From a Free Republic website coverage of a news segment dealing with the issue:

"From the news segment: A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years...according to a recent Reuters article citing LDS General Authority Marlin K. Jensen, for the church as a whole, the record in going in a different direction. Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and "attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years." Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving. "I'm from Chile and a lot of people just stop attending, they take it a little bit too casual," said Francisco Jerez, LDS Church member. So how bad is it getting? Right now there are more than 14 million members of the church worldwide. But according to the article, sociologists estimate active membership may as few as only five million."



4. Young people on the whole aren't into the restrictions and demands Mormonism imposes.


People would rather continue in SIN, rather than following Christ. No surprise there. They want to have sex outside of marriage, party, etc.


-7up

Bill the Cat
12-12-2015, 02:35 PM
I predict that "Christians" will become more "Mormon" in their doctrine, not the other way around.

Scholarship is moving that way.

-Look how Christians changed their view concerning those who die in childhood without baptism would be damned. (which led to the practice of infant baptism early on in Christian history. (Or even those adults who die without hearing the gospel of Christ at all... Are they all damned to hell for eternity? Take a survey of Christians today and compare it to history, you will see that this perspective has changed.)
-The "Social Trinitarinism" view is far closer to LDS theology than previous forms of Trinitiarianism (Moving to the idea 3 separate centers of consciousness).
-Look at Old Testament Scholar John H. Walton and his teaching that Genesis 1-2 is essentially a "Temple Text", which fits into Mormonism very well. He also proposes that God's creation is organizing pre-existing things to God's purpose... (http://www.blackhawkchurch.org/archive/sermon_resources/walton.pdf)
-The rejection of ex nihilo will be next in Christianity. We discussed this at length previously on this forum. Old Testament Jewish scholars like John Levenson (http://www.amazon.com/Creation-Persistence-Evil-Jon-Levenson/dp/0691029504) has advanced the idea of God creating from something rather than nothing. The Biblical exegesis of this was pounded out decades ago by Bruce K. Waltke (surprisingly published multiple times by the Western Conservative Baptist Seminary). David Ray Griffin and other Christian theologians came to realize the philosophical problem of evil that occurs with creation out of nothing, and try to deal with in in "process theology" (http://www.anthonyflood.com/griffincreationoutofchaos.htm), which necessarily has to reject ex nihilo. Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, (http://www.amazon.com/Creatio-Ex-Nihilo-Academic-Paperback/dp/056708356X) which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D. Oh, and Blake Ostler shut down William Lane Craig's attempt to hold on to "ex nihilo" in his extensive defense (http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/reviews-of-the-new-mormon-challenge); to which William Lane Craig and crew had no response.

Pretty soon; those number of Christians who believe in Ex Nihilo, will be akin to those who believe that the Earth was literally created in 7 , twenty four hour days. It is an indefensible position historically speaking, Biblically speaking, and philosophically speaking.

The Decline of Mormonism is only going to go along with of the Decline of spirituality altogether. Society is becoming more secular ... period. The mainstream Christians are partly to blame for that, because they present to the world a false form of Christianity which has a theodicy which is a philosophical nightmare .. again, which is impossible to defend, and thus is easy for the masses in society to reject.

Congratulations on that to all of you.

-7up

Still addicted to name dropping, I see... :ahem:

seven7up
12-12-2015, 03:38 PM
Still addicted to name dropping, I see... :ahem:


Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can stay here and hang out with you and Cow Poke.

-7up

Cow Poke
12-15-2015, 06:49 PM
Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can study with the Mormons.

-7up

Fixed it for ya

One Bad Pig
12-16-2015, 07:35 AM
Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, (http://www.amazon.com/Creatio-Ex-Nihilo-Academic-Paperback/dp/056708356X) which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D.
Gerhard May does so by suppressing or waving away (http://earlychurch.org.uk/article_exnihilo_copan.html) contrary data.
Many have suggested that the intertestamental book of 2 Maccabees states clearly the traditional doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. There a mother pleads with her son willingly to accept torture rather than recant his beliefs:

I beg you, child, look at the sky and the earth; see all that is in them and realize that God made them out of nothing, and that man comes into being in the same way. (7:28)

Although May thinks that this passage does not have the necessary doctrinal context for the idea of creatio ex nihilo (pp. 6, 16), others are not so convinced. For example, Gerhard von Rad maintains, "The conceptional formulation creatio ex nihilo is first found" in this passage. Moreover, to say that there was no doctrinal context at all for such a statement does not seem quite right. After all, the Jewish understanding of creation was that "the world as a whole can only be understood in the context of its coming into being." It is, then, not a far step from this assumption to creation out of nothing.

We find another reference to creation out of nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which May does not even mention):

From the God of Knowledge comes all that is and shall be. Before ever they existed He established their whole design, and when, as ordained for them, they come into being, it is in accord with His glorious design that they accomplish their task without change. (1QS 3:15)

The noted first-century rabbi, Gamaliel, seems to have reflected this concept of creation in his thinking (although May calls this an "isolated" reference [p. 23]). A philosopher challenged him, "Your God was indeed a great artist, but he had good materials [unformed space/void, darkness, water, wind, and the deep] to help him." Gamaliel, responded, "All of them are explicitly described as having been created by him [and not as preexistent]."

In the early Christian homily, Shepherd of Hermas, the first command is to believe that God brought all things "into existence out of non-existence."

In fact, those in the early centuries who claimed that God created out of formless matter (Philo, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria) were heavily influenced by Platonism (which held precisely that).

Bill the Cat
12-16-2015, 12:38 PM
Gerhard May does so by suppressing or waving away (http://earlychurch.org.uk/article_exnihilo_copan.html) contrary data.
Many have suggested that the intertestamental book of 2 Maccabees states clearly the traditional doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. There a mother pleads with her son willingly to accept torture rather than recant his beliefs:

I beg you, child, look at the sky and the earth; see all that is in them and realize that God made them out of nothing, and that man comes into being in the same way. (7:28)

Although May thinks that this passage does not have the necessary doctrinal context for the idea of creatio ex nihilo (pp. 6, 16), others are not so convinced. For example, Gerhard von Rad maintains, "The conceptional formulation creatio ex nihilo is first found" in this passage. Moreover, to say that there was no doctrinal context at all for such a statement does not seem quite right. After all, the Jewish understanding of creation was that "the world as a whole can only be understood in the context of its coming into being." It is, then, not a far step from this assumption to creation out of nothing.

We find another reference to creation out of nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which May does not even mention):

From the God of Knowledge comes all that is and shall be. Before ever they existed He established their whole design, and when, as ordained for them, they come into being, it is in accord with His glorious design that they accomplish their task without change. (1QS 3:15)

The noted first-century rabbi, Gamaliel, seems to have reflected this concept of creation in his thinking (although May calls this an "isolated" reference [p. 23]). A philosopher challenged him, "Your God was indeed a great artist, but he had good materials [unformed space/void, darkness, water, wind, and the deep] to help him." Gamaliel, responded, "All of them are explicitly described as having been created by him [and not as preexistent]."

In the early Christian homily, Shepherd of Hermas, the first command is to believe that God brought all things "into existence out of non-existence."

In fact, those in the early centuries who claimed that God created out of formless matter (Philo, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria) were heavily influenced by Platonism (which held precisely that).

I had posted precisely these arguments on the old site. He'll waffle with "it can be translated" and such nonsense.

Bill the Cat
12-16-2015, 12:39 PM
Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can stay here and hang out with you and Cow Poke.

-7up

As I post links and evidence to rebut your links.

Apocalypticsights
12-17-2015, 07:39 AM
Mormonism has had its hay day, but those days are over. People grow up intellectually. They don't buy into modern "prophets" who supposedly speak for God. They've seen the Koresh and Jones debacles. They are far more sophisticated than early credulous followers of Joe Smith - education does count. Here are some reasons Mormonism is on its way out:

1. The internet has exposed many things about Mormonism that stop people dead in their tracks if they are considering it as a religious choice.
2. Mormonism does not appeal to those with any intellectual capabilities. It appeals to the "gut" and to the "warm fuzzyists," but not to thinking people.
3. Mormonism stands or falls with Joseph Smith - and he has been proven to be a liar, a womanizer (look at the "essays") and somebody that people of today really don't consider to be the idolatrous object worthy of praise which Mormons have always imputed to Smith.
4. Young people on the whole aren't into the restrictions and demands Mormonism imposes.
5. White Disneyworld type temples turn off a lot of people in today's economy where you have so many homeless and needy.
6. Thanks to Newnamenoah, Mormon temple rites have been exposed and are seen by many as a Masonic-based charade. Freemasonry was the model of the temple rites, and it's in decline as well.

That's just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head.

I think you need to seek a little bit of love from the Most High Spirit.

Apocalypticsights
12-17-2015, 07:42 AM
The rejection of "modern prophets" of Mormonism is more about realizing their false doctrines than about growing in intellect. There are no "gospel truths" in Mormonism. Every doctrine pilfered from Christianity is warped by others that make them internally incoherent.

Why would you say this?

Apocalypticsights
12-17-2015, 07:44 AM
Jesus Christ is an "Extraterrestrial"

Full Definition of EXTRATERRESTRIAL
: originating, existing, or occurring outside the earth or its atmosphere <extraterrestrial life>

Since Jesus, his spirit, did not come from the Earth, then he is an "alien".

Plus, he looks like a human (HE IS a Human) and had "superpowers".

I guess all of Christianity is "sci-fi/fantasy" ... according to your criteria anyways....

-7up

haha so true!

Apocalypticsights
12-17-2015, 07:46 AM
The average convert lasts less than a year. The "growth" is mostly in third world countries where Mormon "missionaries" capitalize on the hard work of Christian missionaries who have preached the Gospel. My daughter and family do missionary work in Zambia and the Mormons will come in and lure the poor new Christians away. Also, Mormons tend to have more children than non-Mormons, and new babies are projected by the cult to be members, and are counted as such, even though they aren't baptized until age 8. If a person does not show up at a LDS Chapel for years and years, he is still counted as a member, even though he has left and is attending the Calvary Chapel down the street - a person must resign formerly to get off the membership rolls.

Please knock off with the cult references. Mormonism is not a cult.

Bill the Cat
12-17-2015, 09:59 AM
Why would you say this?

Years of study.

Cow Poke
12-17-2015, 10:37 AM
Please knock off with the cult references. Mormonism is not a cult.

One of the key factors of determining the status is extra biblical revelation - of which Mormonism is made primarily.

Christianbookworm
12-17-2015, 12:35 PM
Aren't all sapient beings the same exact species in mormonism? Because the have humans turning into gods like caterpillars turning into butterflies.

shunyadragon
12-20-2015, 08:20 AM
Please knock off with the cult references. Mormonism is not a cult.

I do believe the 'cult' word is more like a 'stone' to throw at others who believe differently, but that does not face up to some of the real issues with the LDS church and reality.

seven7up
12-23-2015, 02:00 PM
I do believe the 'cult' word is more like a 'stone' to throw at others who believe differently, but that does not face up to some of the real issues with the LDS church and reality.

Christianity is also a "cult" based on the same definitions that anti-Mormons like to use; they just don't realize it.

Cow Poke wrote: One of the key factors of determining the status is extra biblical revelation - of which Mormonism is made primarily.

Cow Poke has a tendency to throw criticisms at Mormonism, without realizing that those same criticisms are valid against his own faith.

The New Testament was "extrabiblical revelation", when looking at the Old Testament as the canon of scripture.

-7up

seven7up
12-23-2015, 02:10 PM
Gerhard May does so by suppressing or waving away (http://earlychurch.org.uk/article_exnihilo_copan.html) contrary data.
Many have suggested that the intertestamental book of 2 Maccabees states clearly the traditional doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. There a mother pleads with her son willingly to accept torture rather than recant his beliefs:

I beg you, child, look at the sky and the earth; see all that is in them and realize that God made them out of nothing, and that man comes into being in the same way. (7:28)

Although May thinks that this passage does not have the necessary doctrinal context for the idea of creatio ex nihilo (pp. 6, 16), others are not so convinced. For example, Gerhard von Rad maintains, "The conceptional formulation creatio ex nihilo is first found" in this passage. Moreover, to say that there was no doctrinal context at all for such a statement does not seem quite right. After all, the Jewish understanding of creation was that "the world as a whole can only be understood in the context of its coming into being." It is, then, not a far step from this assumption to creation out of nothing.

We find another reference to creation out of nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which May does not even mention):

From the God of Knowledge comes all that is and shall be. Before ever they existed He established their whole design, and when, as ordained for them, they come into being, it is in accord with His glorious design that they accomplish their task without change. (1QS 3:15)

The noted first-century rabbi, Gamaliel, seems to have reflected this concept of creation in his thinking (although May calls this an "isolated" reference [p. 23]). A philosopher challenged him, "Your God was indeed a great artist, but he had good materials [unformed space/void, darkness, water, wind, and the deep] to help him." Gamaliel, responded, "All of them are explicitly described as having been created by him [and not as preexistent]."

In the early Christian homily, Shepherd of Hermas, the first command is to believe that God brought all things "into existence out of non-existence."

In fact, those in the early centuries who claimed that God created out of formless matter (Philo, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria) were heavily influenced by Platonism (which held precisely that).


Copan got destroyed by Blake Ostler in their debate:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/reviews-of-the-new-mormon-challenge

Plus, that very same passage in 2 Maccabbees was CLEARLY not Ex nihilo in the way that modern Christians think of it; Do you believe that a fetus in the womb is literally created from nothing? No, it isn't. (or if you think Adam was created from nothing... wrong, he was created "from the dust" of the earth.

This video describes the facts extensively; and at 10:20, specifically addressed Copan's utter failure at even bothering to look at the context and usage of the text in 2 Maccabbees https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhWaeyEPlAw

-7up

Cow Poke
12-23-2015, 02:19 PM
Cow Poke wrote: One of the key factors of determining the status is extra biblical revelation - of which Mormonism is made primarily.

Cow Poke has a tendency to throw criticisms at Mormonism, without realizing that those same criticisms are valid against his own faith.

Cow Poke fully realizes some of the same criticisms can be made against Christianity by unbelievers, but, unlike Mormonism, Christianity wasn't founded on a fraud and a false prophet.


The New Testament was "extrabiblical revelation", when looking at the Old Testament as the canon of scripture.

-7up

Sure, but you don't predate the New Testament, do you? :glare: And the BoM falsely claims to be "another testament" of Jesus, when it is, in fact, a fictional and deceptive work by a false prophet.

One Bad Pig
12-23-2015, 03:53 PM
Copan got destroyed by Blake Ostler in their debate:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/reviews-of-the-new-mormon-challenge
This is the second time you've brought this up. First, you have an odd idea of what a "debate" is. What you linked to is a rebuttal, not a "debate." Second, you seem to confuse quantity with quality.


Plus, that very same passage in 2 Maccabbees was CLEARLY not Ex nihilo in the way that modern Christians think of it; Do you believe that a fetus in the womb is literally created from nothing? No, it isn't. (or if you think Adam was created from nothing... wrong, he was created "from the dust" of the earth.
The question is not whether I think a fetus in the womb is formed from nothing, but whether the Maccabeans did.


This video describes the facts extensively; and at 10:20, specifically addressed Copan's utter failure at even bothering to look at the context and usage of the text in 2 Maccabbees https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhWaeyEPlAw

Ok, I've looked at the context. It has very little bearing on the meaning of the verse. I'm not watching your video to see what tortured attempts it makes to change the meaning of the text. I'll take the time to read text, but I typically find videos not worthwhile. And I see you managed to flat out ignore the other 3/4 of my argument.

Bill the Cat
12-23-2015, 05:36 PM
Copan got destroyed by Blake Ostler

:rofl:

shunyadragon
12-24-2015, 08:18 AM
Copan got destroyed by Blake Ostler in their debate:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/reviews-of-the-new-mormon-challenge

I agree with Cow Poke. This was not a formal debate where both sides have the opportunity for a series of arguments and rebuttals.

No, no one was destroyed in this response.

shunyadragon
12-24-2015, 08:30 AM
Christianity is also a "cult" based on the same definitions that anti-Mormons like to use; they just don't realize it.

Cow Poke wrote: One of the key factors of determining the status is extra biblical revelation - of which Mormonism is made primarily.

Cow Poke has a tendency to throw criticisms at Mormonism, without realizing that those same criticisms are valid against his own faith.

The New Testament was "extrabiblical revelation", when looking at the Old Testament as the canon of scripture.

-7up

I agree that all religions and churches face these issues and there are problems with absolute claims of the scripture as some how revealed directly by God. The Book of Genesis and parts of the rest of the Pentateuch, and likely the Psalms are rooted in Canaanite and pre-Babylonian writings, and most likely evolved and were not written by a specific author. Most of the Bible including the New Testament has been subject to editing and compilation and change over time by the evidence. There is sufficient evidence that both the Old and new Testament are set in known history and archeology of the Middle East.

I consider the lack of evidence for the historical context of the Book of Moron to be more problematic, than the New Testament. There is insufficient evidence that the Book of Mormon was set in known history and archeology of the Americas.


There is a basis for accusing them all as manmade "cults" but I do not go there as the extreme skeptics claim.

seven7up
12-31-2015, 04:01 PM
Cow Poke fully realizes some of the same criticisms can be made against Christianity by unbelievers, but, unlike Mormonism, Christianity wasn't founded on a fraud and a false prophet.

This is your biased opinion.




Sure, but you don't predate the New Testament, do you? :glare:

Irrelevant, you missed the point. The New Testament is considered by Jews to be "extra-biblical". That doesn't stop you from believing in it.


And the BoM falsely claims to be "another testament" of Jesus, when it is, in fact, a fictional and deceptive work by a false prophet.

Again ... that is like ... your opinion ... dude.

-7up

Cow Poke
12-31-2015, 04:19 PM
This is your biased opinion.

Well, do you believe Christianity WAS founded on fraud and a false prophet? :stunned:


Irrelevant, you missed the point. The New Testament is considered by Jews to be "extra-biblical". That doesn't stop you from believing in it.

A) I'm not a Jew
2) I'm a New Testament Christian
C) Saul, based on Jewish teachings, tried to destroy Christianity, only to become one of its greatest proponents


Again ... that is like ... your opinion ... dude.

Based on much research and confirmation of the Holy Spirit, dudette.

37818
12-31-2015, 10:38 PM
It has been reported, "Smith asked which religious sect he should join and was told to join none of them because all existing religions had corrupted the teachings of Jesus Christ."

Cow Poke
01-01-2016, 09:33 AM
It has been reported, "Smith asked which religious sect he should join and was told to join none of them because all existing religions had corrupted the teachings of Jesus Christ."

And, therefore, he started his own religion, based on his own testimony, his own "visions", his own money digging, his own writings, his own wild imagination, his own grand ego, his own sexual fantasies, his own.......

It's all about Smith.

Christianity is all about Jesus, buried, crucified and risen again.

37818
01-01-2016, 02:50 PM
It should be noted that Smith accused other Christians of not being genuine Christianity in the first place. And then they cry when non-Mormon Christians say they [Mormons] are not Christians. And of course they're not. And the sad part is they [Mormons] do not know why.

seven7up
01-06-2016, 11:01 PM
One of the key factors of determining the status is extra biblical revelation - of which Mormonism is made primarily.

I made the point that , to the Jews , the new "Christian" religion was also considered a "cult" with "extra-biblical revelation".



7up: ...you missed the point. The New Testament is considered by Jews to be "extra-biblical". That doesn't stop you from believing in it.




A) I'm not a Jew
2) I'm a New Testament Christian
C) Saul, based on Jewish teachings, tried to destroy Christianity, only to become one of its greatest proponents




Wow.

I cannot dumb the point down for you any more than I already have. It is well over your head.


Congrats. I give up.


-7up

Cow Poke
01-07-2016, 04:16 AM
Congrats. I give up.


-7up

Promise? Because you are failing miserably.

Cow Poke
01-07-2016, 04:33 AM
I made the point that , to the Jews , the new "Christian" religion was also considered a "cult" with "extra-biblical revelation".

Yes, and a very influential Jew who was prosecuting/persecuting that very "cult", became convinced - as I am - that Christianity is the real thing, and became one of its greatest proponents. (Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the story of Saul/Paul?) Unlike the egomaniac Smith who decided it wasn't good enough and had to personally invent his own cult, of course built entirely on his own person.

Jesus was the Perfect Son of God.

Smith, on the other hand, was a womanizer, liar, money digger, egomaniac, con man....

I bow before Jesus - you bow before a fraud.

Yeah, you really should give up, and turn to Christ.

seven7up
01-14-2016, 07:55 PM
Y

I bow before Jesus - you bow before a fraud.

Yeah, you really should give up, and turn to Christ.


Good one Cow Poke.

Why don't you just go around and continue to tell everyone that Mormons worship Joseph Smith rather than Jesus Christ?

They will find out who the liar is soon enough..... (Guess what? It is you.)

-7up

Cow Poke
01-14-2016, 08:12 PM
Good one Cow Poke.

Why don't you just go around and continue to tell everyone that Mormons worship Joseph Smith rather than Jesus Christ?

Why don't you quit being dishonest and twisting my words? I didn't say "rather than" - I implied in addition to. And you can keep pretending you don't worship Smith.


They will find out who the liar is soon enough..... (Guess what? It is you.)

-7up

I'm not the one who's deceived into thinking that Smith is going to "help Jesus check people into Heaven", as one of your buddies used to claim here on Tweb.

By the way, you are in violation of the rules for accusing me of being a liar without substantiation, but that's no surprise.

Bill the Cat
01-15-2016, 10:40 AM
Why don't you quit being dishonest and twisting my words? I didn't say "rather than" - I implied in addition to. And you can keep pretending you don't worship Smith.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bewcITSOD7w


:whistle:

Cow Poke
01-15-2016, 11:57 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bewcITSOD7w


:whistle:

In addition to that, you can look at the blatantly phony historical revisionism of Smith's life in the "Prophet of the Restoration" propaganda film to see how they worship him. They make him look like Jesus, but without the cursing of the fig tree or the overturning of tables in the Temple. :smile:

No mention whatsoever of his moneygrubbing, bank fraud, womanizing, marrying other men's wives under the guise of "God told me I had to", etc...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xVw6PsSinI

ke7ejx
01-18-2016, 06:36 PM
And, therefore, he started his own religion, based on his own testimony, his own "visions", his own money digging, his own writings, his own wild imagination, his own grand ego, his own sexual fantasies, his own.......

It's all about Smith.

Christianity is all about Jesus, buried, crucified and risen again.

Yep...

seven7up
02-23-2016, 12:29 AM
And, therefore, he (Joseph Smith) started his own religion,....

Christianity is all about Jesus, buried, crucified and risen again.

You don't know spit about what Joseph Smith actually taught. All you pretend to know is a caricature of the actual LDS faith.

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it”

-7up

seven7up
02-23-2016, 12:39 AM
Why don't you quit being dishonest and twisting my words? I didn't say "rather than" - I implied in addition to.

Equally a lie... and you know it.

Please continue. It only confirms that you have no intention of representing the truth.




I'm not the one who's deceived into thinking that Smith is going to "help Jesus check people into Heaven", as one of your buddies used to claim here on Tweb.

As you are probably aware, you are taking the concept out of context:

As Christ said:

"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:45-47)

Similarly, Noah offered "salvation" to those who would join him in the ark. Those who were disobedient and failed to enter the ark were swept off the earth in the flood and ended up in spirit prison (1 Peter 3:20). Again, as the prophet of his dispensation, Noah provided the "passport" for those who accepted the word of God that came through him.

In the the time of the New Testament Church, those who accepted the apostles and prophets and did not reject the message of Jesus Christ were saved. As the Lord said to the apostles, "He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matt. 10:40).

THAT IS THE CONTEXT. This is nothing new.



By the way, you are in violation of the rules for accusing me of being a liar without substantiation, but that's no surprise.

You claim that we "worship" Joseph Smith. Everyone knows that this is a lie. Including you. No violation here.

-7up

Sparko
02-23-2016, 05:49 AM
You don't know spit about what Joseph Smith actually taught. All you pretend to know is a caricature of the actual LDS faith.

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it”

-7up

Sounds good...




"SOUNDS" being the operative word. The problem with mormonism is that they change the very idea of God and Jesus into a twisted travesty of what the bible reveals. The mormon Jesus is a creation of the Father, a literal son who is brother to Satan. And the Father himself was just a man born on another planet who became God. And you believe that one day YOU can become a God and have your own planet. So your God and your Jesus are not the God of the bible. So any words claiming that your faith is based on Jesus, that he died, was buried and rose again, are speaking of a different and a false Jesus. A Jesus who is a figment of Smith's imagination and lies.

Bill the Cat
02-23-2016, 05:49 AM
You don't know spit about what Joseph Smith actually taught. All you pretend to know is a caricature of the actual LDS faith.

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it”

-7up

The problem is that he used the same English words, yet means something entirely different by several of them. And the appendages are even worse. Joseph Smith rotted the core message, and the rest festered as a result.

Bill the Cat
02-23-2016, 05:52 AM
Christians live BECAUSE Jesus lived. Mormons believe they live REGARDLESS of Jesus.

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 06:35 AM
You don't know spit about what Joseph Smith actually taught.

More importantly, I know what he did. :tongue:

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 06:37 AM
Equally a lie... and you know it.

Calm yourself, 7, and check out the new clarifications on accusations of lying. If you accuse me of lying, you have to specify what it was I lied about. I didn't lie. :no:

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 06:40 AM
You claim that we "worship" Joseph Smith.

You do, you just don't call it that. You even have a hymn about him. :tongue:


Everyone knows that this is a lie. Including you.

Nope.


No violation here.

-7up

Well, I understand, having been hoodwinked into becoming a Mormon, and that Joseph Smith is a for-really prophet, you don't have the ability to discern a lie from the truth, so.... I'll cut you some slack. :wink:

seven7up
02-23-2016, 06:56 AM
You do, you just don't call it that. You even have a hymn about him.


We also have a song about Noah and the ark.

-7up

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 07:02 AM
We also have a song about Noah and the ark.

-7up


So? We have a song about Ice Cream! :smug:

Sparko
02-23-2016, 07:04 AM
Calm yourself, 7, and check out the new clarifications on accusations of lying. If you accuse me of lying, you have to specify what it was I lied about. I didn't lie. :no:He has to also show that you knowingly told an untruth. And that opinions or matters of faith are not to be called lies. But then what else has he got? He can't argue against what we are saying. So all he can do is stomp his foot and throw a tantrum.

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 07:06 AM
He has to also show that you knowingly told an untruth. And that opinions or matters of faith are not to be called lies. But then what else has he got? He can't argue against what we are saying. So all he can do is stomp his foot and throw a tantrum.

He seems... um... angry. Maybe he needs a hug.

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 07:10 AM
We also have a song about Noah and the ark.

-7up

Post it - let's see if it praises Noah and/or the ark.

Meanwhile... From the LDS website (https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/praise-to-the-man?lang=eng)....


1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

(Chorus]
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

2. Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

3. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

4. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know "Brother Joseph" again.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872
Music: Scottish folk song

Now, I have given solid evidence for my claim that Mormons worship Joseph Smith. If you're any kind of decent fellow at all, you'll apologize for your false accusation that I lied.

One Bad Pig
02-23-2016, 07:21 AM
So? We have a song about Ice Cream! :smug:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0TH6Ca8N6Y

ke7ejx
02-23-2016, 10:43 AM
You claim that we "worship" Joseph Smith. Everyone knows that this is a lie. Including you. No violation here.

-7up

Oh please. There are SEVERAL hymns in the hymnbook praising Joseph Smith in a way that should only be reserved for God and Christ. Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief likens Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ. That IS worship! I used to be LDS and I sang those songs along with everyone else.

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 10:47 AM
Oh please. There are SEVERAL hymns in the hymnbook praising Joseph Smith in a way that should only be reserved for God and Christ. Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief likens Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ. That IS worship! I used to be LDS and I sang those songs along with everyone else.

But, did you ever sing "I love Jesus better than Ice Cream, and Ice Cream's very good"?

Hmmm?

ke7ejx
02-23-2016, 10:48 AM
But, did you ever sing "I love Jesus better than Ice Cream, and Ice Cream's very good"?

Hmmm?

Nope, I was always sick the day they would sing that. :sad:

Sparko
02-23-2016, 11:14 AM
Oh please. There are SEVERAL hymns in the hymnbook praising Joseph Smith in a way that should only be reserved for God and Christ. Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief likens Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ. That IS worship! I used to be LDS and I sang those songs along with everyone else.Even Joseph Smith worshiped Joseph Smith. Remember this:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 12:52 PM
Even Joseph Smith worshiped Joseph Smith. Remember this:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

(bolding mine) How long after that was it that his own followers attacked him and caused him to have the 'great shootout' because he bilked them out of their wives, money, land, honor....

ke7ejx
02-23-2016, 03:19 PM
Post it - let's see if it praises Noah and/or the ark.

Meanwhile... From the LDS website (https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/praise-to-the-man?lang=eng)....


1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

(Chorus]
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

2. Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

3. Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

4. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know "Brother Joseph" again.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872
Music: Scottish folk song

Now, I have given solid evidence for my claim that Mormons worship Joseph Smith. If you're any kind of decent fellow at all, you'll apologize for your false accusation that I lied.

I sorry...

Cow Poke
02-23-2016, 04:01 PM
I sorry...

Not YOU, Punkinhead! :hug:

Sparko
02-24-2016, 07:56 AM
Back to the topic.

I haven't seen any mormons going door to door in years. I would say that mormonism is in the decline. Used to see them all the time around here.

seven7up
02-27-2016, 12:41 PM
Even Joseph Smith worshiped Joseph Smith. Remember this:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

Typical for anti-Mormons to take the "boasting" of Joseph out of context, that Joseph was speaking to those in the crown who had just attacked Joseph; AND you ignore that he was mimicking Paul's "boasting" in the New Testament.

Anybody who knows anything about the teachings of Joseph Smith would know that Joseph Smith knew and taught that Jesus Christ is Deity, and Joseph taught that he was a mere human and admitted that was a sinful man. Joseph taught that he depends on the grace and sacrifice/atonement of Christ for salvation.

If you all think that to "honor" a human being is the same as worship, then you don't know much about worship. Even the Ten Commandments command to "honour thy father and thy mother". That does not mean to "worship" them.

All of you can feel free to claim that "Mormons worship Joseph Smith". Just keep in mind that as long as you do, nobody who actually understands our religion will take you seriously.


-7up


“We do not worship [Joseph Smith] the Prophet. We worship God our Eternal Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ. But we acknowledge the Prophet; we proclaim him; we respect him; we reverence him as an instrument in the hands of the Almighty in restoring to the earth the ancient truths of the divine gospel, together with the priesthood through which the authority of God is exercised in the affairs of His Church and for the blessing of His people” (Gordon B. Hinckley)

Cow Poke
02-27-2016, 04:44 PM
Typical for anti-Mormons to take the "boasting" of Joseph out of context,

In the context of his life as a "It's All About Me" kind of guy - prancing around on a horse as a self made General, ruling over the Masons as a self made Grand Poobah, starting his very own bank, operating his very own hotel complete with a bar that sold drinks he preached against...

He was a con man, a glass looker, a womanizer and, most significantly, a false prophet.

Your very weak attempts to cast his boasting as anything other than what it was is less than amusing. :brood:

Cow Poke
02-27-2016, 04:47 PM
If you all think that to "honor" a human being is the same as worship, then you don't know much about worship. Even the Ten Commandments command to "honour thy father and thy mother".

Yeah, lemme know when you sit in Church singing a hymn, "Praise to my Parents" :doh:

Sparko
02-28-2016, 07:07 AM
Typical for anti-Mormons to take the "boasting" of Joseph out of context, that Joseph was speaking to those in the crown who had just attacked Joseph; AND you ignore that he was mimicking Paul's "boasting" in the New Testament.

Anybody who knows anything about the teachings of Joseph Smith would know that Joseph Smith knew and taught that Jesus Christ is Deity, and Joseph taught that he was a mere human and admitted that was a sinful man. Joseph taught that he depends on the grace and sacrifice/atonement of Christ for salvation.

If you all think that to "honor" a human being is the same as worship, then you don't know much about worship. Even the Ten Commandments command to "honour thy father and thy mother". That does not mean to "worship" them.

All of you can feel free to claim that "Mormons worship Joseph Smith". Just keep in mind that as long as you do, nobody who actually understands our religion will take you seriously.


-7up


“We do not worship [Joseph Smith] the Prophet. We worship God our Eternal Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ. But we acknowledge the Prophet; we proclaim him; we respect him; we reverence him as an instrument in the hands of the Almighty in restoring to the earth the ancient truths of the divine gospel, together with the priesthood through which the authority of God is exercised in the affairs of His Church and for the blessing of His people” (Gordon B. Hinckley)funny I dont recall Paul boasting he did more than Jesus for the church. Or that the followers of Jesus ran away from him but none did from Paul. Paul never boasted like Smith.

in fact when Paul boasted he boasted about his weaknesses, and he used hyperbole. He never boasted he was greater than the other apostles or Jesus himself!

2 cor 11
16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!

Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

rogue06
02-28-2016, 08:18 AM
funny I dont recall Paul boasting he did more than Jesus for the church. Or that the followers of Jesus ran away from him but none did from Paul. Paul never boasted like Smith.

in fact when Paul boasted he boasted about his weaknesses, and he used hyperbole. He never boasted he was greater than the other apostles or Jesus himself!

2 cor 11
16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!

Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.
Probably the only thing that he did that could count as boasting was when he said he was every bit as much of an apostle as any of the others were. Nothing like the self-aggrandizing that Smith was known for.

ke7ejx
02-28-2016, 02:41 PM
Oh yes, because Joseph NEVER exalted himself.... "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be God to you in His stead...and if you don't like it, you must lump it!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).


:doh:

Cow Poke
02-28-2016, 04:50 PM
Oh yes, because Joseph NEVER exalted himself.... "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be God to you in His stead...and if you don't like it, you must lump it!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).


:doh:

He had is fingers crossed behind his back, so this doesn't count. :smug:

ke7ejx
02-28-2016, 09:49 PM
He had is fingers crossed behind his back, so this doesn't count. :smug: :tongue:

ke7ejx
02-28-2016, 10:43 PM
Typical for anti-Mormons to take the "boasting" of Joseph out of context, that Joseph was speaking to those in the crown who had just attacked Joseph; AND you ignore that he was mimicking Paul's "boasting" in the New Testament.

Anybody who knows anything about the teachings of Joseph Smith would know that Joseph Smith knew and taught that Jesus Christ is Deity, and Joseph taught that he was a mere human and admitted that was a sinful man. Joseph taught that he depends on the grace and sacrifice/atonement of Christ for salvation.

If you all think that to "honor" a human being is the same as worship, then you don't know much about worship. Even the Ten Commandments command to "honour thy father and thy mother". That does not mean to "worship" them.

All of you can feel free to claim that "Mormons worship Joseph Smith". Just keep in mind that as long as you do, nobody who actually understands our religion will take you seriously.


-7up


“We do not worship [Joseph Smith] the Prophet. We worship God our Eternal Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ. But we acknowledge the Prophet; we proclaim him; we respect him; we reverence him as an instrument in the hands of the Almighty in restoring to the earth the ancient truths of the divine gospel, together with the priesthood through which the authority of God is exercised in the affairs of His Church and for the blessing of His people” (Gordon B. Hinckley)

Except I lived the religion. I know what is taught and I know what is believed. Joseph Smith is considered a god. Trying to say he isn't worshipped is a classic example of cognitive dissonance. I'm no anti, but I do know better than most what the doctrines teach. It broke my heart to learn it but in the end those doctrines are false and even heretical.

Cerebrum123
02-29-2016, 05:57 AM
Oh yes, because Joseph NEVER exalted himself.... "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be God to you in His stead...and if you don't like it, you must lump it!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).


:doh:

I wouldn't use this one against Joseph Smith, and for this reason.

Exodus 7:1-3New International Version (NIV)

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,

It's clearly a parallel to the above. The other example is better, so I think it should be used instead.

ke7ejx
02-29-2016, 11:42 AM
I wouldn't use this one against Joseph Smith, and for this reason.

Exodus 7:1-3New International Version (NIV)

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,

It's clearly a parallel to the above. The other example is better, so I think it should be used instead.

It's all about the context in which it is used. Joseph wasn't comparing himself to Moses.

Cow Poke
02-29-2016, 11:46 AM
I wouldn't use this one against Joseph Smith, and for this reason....

In and of itself, no... but the overall context...

Bill the Cat
02-29-2016, 12:06 PM
I wouldn't use this one against Joseph Smith, and for this reason.

Exodus 7:1-3New International Version (NIV)

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,

It's clearly a parallel to the above. The other example is better, so I think it should be used instead.

I think it's completely appropriate to use this quote against Joseph Smith. There's a rather large difference between:

"I have made you like God to Pharaoh"

and

"He will make me be God to you in His stead"

God Himself saying He will make Moses "LIKE God" (elohim means "one with strong authority") is not anywhere near Joseph Smith boasting "God will make me be God to you in his stead". Being Like God is not the same as being a God.

seven7up
02-29-2016, 08:51 PM
Oh yes, because Joseph NEVER exalted himself.... "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be God to you in His stead...and if you don't like it, you must lump it!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).


Just another example of taking something out of context in order to distort the actual meaning. Typical anti-Mormon tactics. Anybody who knows the book of Exodus knows that when the text of the Old Testament calls Moses a "God", it does not mean that Moses was Deity in the flesh. The Lord said to Moses, “He shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God” (Ex. 4:16). In other words, as Aaron spoke, Moses could correct him if he said anything wrong, just as God could tell his prophet Moses what to say. Moses by the same token could tell Aaron what to say, and in a figurative way Moses was as God to Aaron.

So, when Joseph Smith says, “God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel and He will make me be god to you in His stead . . . .” Joseph Smith is paraphrasing the incident from Exodus where God told Moses He would give him Aaron for a spokesman.

Something anti-Mormons will never give you is the context. You have to be smart enough (or not be intellectually lazy), and go beyond what the anti-Mormon sound bite taken out of context says.

In his talk Joseph Smith said, “My lungs are worn out,” indicating that he was exhausted from speaking. Therefore, as the text explains, Joseph compared himself to Moses, who was given Aaron for a spokesman.

Joseph Smith, using this Exodus expression, now introduced another church leader to the congregation and said, “I have been giving Elder Adams instruction in some principles to speak to you, and if he makes a mistake, I will get up and correct him” (HC 6:319-320).

The audience would, of course, have been disappointed hearing from a substitute speaker when they came to hear Joseph Smith. He had spoken for hours to an audience of several thousand the day before. In his weariness, Joseph then turned over the speaking assignment to an aide and said to the audience, “If you don’t like it, you can lump it.” (which was said in humor).

Anti-Mormons will never give the background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false caricature of Joseph, rather than the truth.

-7up

seven7up
02-29-2016, 09:17 PM
Except I lived the religion. I know what is taught and I know what is believed. Joseph Smith is considered a god.


In Mormonism, anybody who receives "eternal life" and becomes like God, is considered to be "a god". However, that doesn't mean that we worship anybody who receives eternal life.

Surely you have heard LDS explain our view of Paul's letter when he referred to, "gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor. 8:5,6) and what David meant in Psalm 8:4,5 when he said that man is "a little lower than the gods" (KJV gives "lower than the angels" but the Hebrew word is "gods" . LDS have always said that, while even human beings (like Moses) or the judges of Israel who were given authority by God are called "gods", that does not mean we worship them.

I can give many examples in scripture, like "And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen" (D&C 76), but here is Boyd K. Packer explaining back in 1984:

"The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Eloheim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him. There is only one Christ, one Redeemer. We accept the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh." (Oct 1984 General Conference).



(Interestingly enough, anti-Mormons will criticize LDS for too limited a worship ... i.e. only praying/worshiping God the Father and not praying to the Son. Yet antis like you turn around and say we worship Joseph. Nonsense.)



Trying to say he isn't worshipped is a classic example of cognitive dissonance. I'm no anti, but I do know better than most what the doctrines teach. It broke my heart to learn it but in the end those doctrines are false and even heretical.

Show me exactly what in the LDS scriptures or practice that would lead you to believe that Joseph is worshiped.


I'm no anti, ...

Sure you are. It is you who suffers from cognative dissonance. You clearly and obviously just tried to take a quote by Joseph Smith entirely out of context, just like any other ant-Mormon. NOBODY who claims that "LDS worship Joseph Smith" is taken seriously. Period.


.... It broke my heart to learn it but in the end those doctrines are false and even heretical.

Sorry to hear that you "learned" such things. Perhaps you didn't know it when anti-Mormons were distorting the reality of what was actually going on. You just bought it without looking deeper.

-7up

seven7up
02-29-2016, 09:35 PM
funny I dont recall Paul boasting he did more than Jesus for the church. Or that the followers of Jesus ran away from him but none did from Paul. Paul never boasted like Smith.

Joseph employed the exact same literary approach that Paul the Apostle did. In context, Joseph engaged in the exact same literary approach and even said that this was his intention. Here is what Joseph said right after reading this chapter of Paul's to the congregation:

"My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did, I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them."

Joseph followed these statements with his own "boasting", in the same way that Paul made outrageous "boasts" to contrast his position with the position of those who the Corinthians were starting to listen to. Paul starts the next chapter of 2 Corinthians with the statement "boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable." Paul says that boasting was necessary at times against the wicked/hard-hearted (though it may do little good, being unprofitable).

The people who had personally attacked Joseph were right there in the crowd; THAT IS THE CONTEXT.

Now, let's look at another context. Consider this, in a personal letter to Emma Smith:

"I will try to be contented with my lot, knowing that God is my friend. In him I shall find comfort. I have given my life into his hands. I am prepared to go at his call. I desire to be with Christ. I count not my life dear to me [except] to do his will."

Now if you claim he was only humble in private, but not in public, consider also the following statement, made in public:

"I do not think there have been many good men on the earth since the days of Adam; but there was one good man and his name was Jesus. Many persons think a prophet must be a great deal better than anybody else....I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not."

Again, there are SO NUMEROUS the instances where Joseph Smith indicated that he depended on Christ for salvation, and so clear his teachings that he was nothing more than a flawed human being, that accusations whereby anti-mormons pretend that Joseph Smith supposedly taught that he was better than Jesus won't be taken seriously by any honest investigator.

-7up

Cerebrum123
03-01-2016, 05:46 AM
It's all about the context in which it is used. Joseph wasn't comparing himself to Moses.

:eh:
It's very clearly an allusion to the verse I quoted. I'm not seeing how it's not a comparison to Moses.


I think it's completely appropriate to use this quote against Joseph Smith. There's a rather large difference between:

"I have made you like God to Pharaoh"

and

"He will make me be God to you in His stead"

God Himself saying He will make Moses "LIKE God" (elohim means "one with strong authority") is not anywhere near Joseph Smith boasting "God will make me be God to you in his stead". Being Like God is not the same as being a God.

I think at worst this quote shows either a Freudian slip, or bad wording on Joseph Smith's part. For now, I also doubt that Joseph Smith even new the difference between elohim, and YHWH.

Bill the Cat
03-01-2016, 05:49 AM
I think at worst this quote shows either a Freudian slip, or bad wording on Joseph Smith's part. For now, I also doubt that Joseph Smith even new the difference between elohim, and YHWH.

He didn't know what the words meant. He eventually settled on Elohim being the Father's real name and YHWH being Jesus' real name

Sparko
03-01-2016, 05:59 AM
Joseph employed the exact same literary approach that Paul the Apostle did. um, no. He didn't. He outright boasted that he was greater than Jesus. Paul never even THOUGHT that, much less boast it. That is pure blasphemy. Smith showed his true colors that day. His pride was exposed, and like Satan, he thought to put himself above God. Instead, he was cast down.

I truly believe that Smith's death was a punishment from God for his blasphemy and trying to lead people into damnation instead of salvation.

You, seven7up, have been deluded by those wretches who instead of taking Smith's death as a sign from God, continued his cult and his false gospel.

Please, look at the evidence. Don't try to dismiss each part separately. take a look at the WHOLE. Big picture it.

Smith was an ego maniac and a con artist. What do you think of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology? Smith was the 19th century version of L. Ron Hubbard. You can see the way Hubbard conned people and made up a religion, but you are blind to the fact that Smith did the same thing.

He made up stories, changed them constantly, tried to start a bank filled with rocks, had a hotel that served booze, stole the wives of his closest followers, told his wife that if she didn't go along with it, she would be damned. Had mormons dress up like indians and murder people. Destroyed a printing press because he didn't like being exposed. Mormonism is a travesty of Christianity.

Your rationalizations are the words of a drowning man, desperately clutching at weeds while the river of truth drags you down.

Cow Poke
03-01-2016, 06:26 AM
J
Anti-Mormons will never give the background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false caricature of Joseph, rather than the truth.

-7up

Mormons NEVER give the whole background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false picture of Smith as a prophet, rather than the truth that he was a lying womanizing money digging con artist who made himself a general, a grand poobah, a false prophet....

-CP

Sparko
03-01-2016, 06:53 AM
I mean really.. mormons will become Gods??? Isn't that the very thing that Satan got kicked out of heaven for? For having the hubris to think that he could be God?

To me, that by itself shows that Mormonism is false and that Satan might be behind it. What better way to fool mankind than to make a counterfeit of Christianity (the best lies have a grain of truth in them) and appeal to man's greed and pride by promising them godhood? That was the very same lie he gave to Eve when he tricked her into eating the forbidden fruit. And he is still using that very same lie today. Why change a winning strategy, I guess? Give people a false Christ to lead them astray, and then promise them that they can be like God. People are greedy enough to fall for it. Just like they fall for the whole word of faith movement that promises they can control God like a genie and get whatever they want. Satan's lies are always the same. And foolish men fall for them and drag their families and decedents along with them.

Cow Poke
03-01-2016, 07:46 AM
I mean really.. mormons will become Gods??? Isn't that the very thing that Satan got kicked out of heaven for? For having the hubris to think that he could be God?

That's why, in that one video that talks about Smith's "vision", there's all that scary music and demonic sounding stuff --- it was Satan filling Smith with this nonsense. And 7up swallows it hook, line, sinker and rod. Heck, he even swallows the boat!

Sparko
03-01-2016, 08:05 AM
That's why, in that one video that talks about Smith's "vision", there's all that scary music and demonic sounding stuff --- it was Satan filling Smith with this nonsense. And 7up swallows it hook, line, sinker and rod. Heck, he even swallows the boat!
It just seems so obvious that is is a false Christianity to me. Is that because we are on the outside looking in? We weren't slowly brought up in the mormon church like 7up, learning it from the time we were born. Like a frog being slowly boiled. They even indoctrinate their new converts the same way. They don't tell them all the crazy stuff until they are already committed and sucked in. Then boom! It's too late to easily leave because they have invested so much into it already. So they rationalize the crazy stuff away as normal or just misunderstandings/outright lies by "anti's"

Bill the Cat
03-01-2016, 09:30 AM
It just seems so obvious that is is a false Christianity to me. Is that because we are on the outside looking in? We weren't slowly brought up in the mormon church like 7up, learning it from the time we were born. Like a frog being slowly boiled. They even indoctrinate their new converts the same way. They don't tell them all the crazy stuff until they are already committed and sucked in. Then boom! It's too late to easily leave because they have invested so much into it already. So they rationalize the crazy stuff away as normal or just misunderstandings/outright lies by "anti's"

Exactly. And just like 7up quoted, they claim that their religion rests on Jesus Christ, yet the "try it and see" Moroni prayer revolves around asking if the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.

Sparko
03-01-2016, 11:06 AM
Exactly. And just like 7up quoted, they claim that their religion rests on Jesus Christ, yet the "try it and see" Moroni prayer revolves around asking if the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.Well just like they change the definition of many Christian terms in order to fool people into believing they are Christians, they also change the real Jesus of the bible, to a phony Jesus of the BoM and Smith's imagination. A separate God, a literal brother to Satan (and us apparently).

seven7up
03-07-2016, 08:05 PM
For now, I also doubt that Joseph Smith even new the difference between elohim, and YHWH.


He knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.

"Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.

-7up

seven7up
03-07-2016, 08:11 PM
Please, look at the evidence. Don't try to dismiss each part separately. take a look at the WHOLE. Big picture it.



I am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.

Again, it is VERY clear from many, many quotes from Joseph Smith that he believed that he depended on Christ for his salvation. All of his teachings showed that Joseph believed himself to be a flawed human being and he believed and taught that Jesus Christ was a sinless and Divine being. This is SO CLEAR, that any attempt of portraying this "boasting" seriously simply shows that you are not a serious investigator of Joseph Smith's teachings.

-7up

seven7up
03-07-2016, 08:20 PM
I mean really.. mormons will become Gods??? Isn't that the very thing that Satan got kicked out of heaven for? For having the hubris to think that he could be God?

To me, that by itself shows that Mormonism is false and that Satan might be behind it.

Incorrect. Lucifer claimed that he was superior to God and that his ways were superior (ie "higher") than God's ways; therefore, he wanted to dethrone God and do things his own way. Clearly, the sin here was pride.

That is FAR, FAR different from the idea that God will exalt His children through His own plan of salvation. Within that plan of salvation, those who are exalted must submit themselves to God and learn that God's ways are superior to our ways.

The difference is very clear to Mormons. Though, based on our conversations, I am not surprised that you can't see it.

-7up

seven7up
03-07-2016, 08:26 PM
Mormons NEVER give the whole background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false picture of Smith as a prophet, rather than the truth that he was a lying ....

-CP


Anti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).


When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."


Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.


-7up

Sparko
03-08-2016, 04:39 AM
Incorrect. Lucifer claimed that he was superior to God and that his ways were superior (ie "higher") than God's ways; therefore, he wanted to dethrone God and do things his own way. Clearly, the sin here was pride.

That is FAR, FAR different from the idea that God will exalt His children through His own plan of salvation. Within that plan of salvation, those who are exalted must submit themselves to God and learn that God's ways are superior to our ways.

The difference is very clear to Mormons. Though, based on our conversations, I am not surprised that you can't see it.

-7upsure satan thought he was greater than God, and his lie to mankind was (and is) that men can become Gods. That is his lie to the LDS. You will never be a God. You are a creature. God created you. God was not created. You will always just be a creature. You will never have your own planet to lord it over. That you even want such a thing shows hubris as bad as Satan's.

One Bad Pig
03-08-2016, 06:05 AM
He knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.
You can back that up with evidence, right?


"Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.

-7up
:no: "Jehovah" is a transliteration of YHWH via Latin and German with the vowels for Adonai. The KJV misread it, and Joseph Smith followed it in his error, just like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

One Bad Pig
03-08-2016, 06:15 AM
I am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.

Again, it is VERY clear from many, many quotes from Joseph Smith that he believed that he depended on Christ for his salvation. All of his teachings showed that Joseph believed himself to be a flawed human being and he believed and taught that Jesus Christ was a sinless and Divine being. This is SO CLEAR, that any attempt of portraying this "boasting" seriously simply shows that you are not a serious investigator of Joseph Smith's teachings.

-7up
It is quite clear from the context you gave that Joseph Smith at best misunderstood what Paul meant by "boasting," since Smith's boasting is clearly of a different character: "I shall always beat them..."; "I will hold on and fly over them"; "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam." Paul never says anything comparable to these genuine boasts. Joseph Smith is boasting in his strength; Paul is "boasting" in his weakness. Are you blind, that you cannot see such fundamental differences?

Cow Poke
03-08-2016, 06:59 AM
I am and I already demonstrated to you that I am looking at ALL of the evidence, rather than this one quote of "boasting" taken out of context.

But you fail to take his whole life in context - the womanizing, greed (starting his own bank), bilking his own people out of their land and possessions, preaching against booze, but running a bar in his own hotel, prancing around as a self-made general, making himself the grand poobah of the Masons... He was egocentric, not Christ-centric.

Cow Poke
03-08-2016, 07:01 AM
Anti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).


When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."


Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.


-7up

Smith was a false prophet and an egotist. It's sad you got sucked into his web.

Cow Poke
03-08-2016, 07:03 AM
It is quite clear from the context you gave that Joseph Smith at best misunderstood what Paul meant by "boasting," since Smith's boasting is clearly of a different character: "I shall always beat them..."; "I will hold on and fly over them"; "I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam." Paul never says anything comparable to these genuine boasts. Joseph Smith is boasting in his strength; Paul is "boasting" in his weakness. Are you blind, that you cannot see such fundamental differences?

Exactly, Paul it was obvious that Paul was uncomfortable in his "boasting" ... "Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft..."

Bill the Cat
03-08-2016, 07:31 AM
He knew that Elohim was a plural Hebrew noun.

No it isn't. The verb makes a Hebrew noun ending in "-im" become plural or singular, but on its own, elohim is not a "plural noun" in Hebrew.


"Jehovah" is the title for God that Jesus Christ "inherited" from God the Father from before the creation of the world.

And you can document this specifically with official LDS scripture, right?

ke7ejx
03-09-2016, 03:52 AM
Anti-mormons got busted on the thread by attempting to to take a phrase out of context (the Moses / Aaron mouthpiece scenario).


When you do get busted and it is clearly explained, you just turn around and say ...."Uh uh, um ... You guys are the ones ...."


Just admit that the criticism against Joseph was not valid and the phrase was obviously taken out of context. You look like a fool otherwise.


-7up

I did not take anything out of context. We're talking about the same man who said that no one save perhaps Christ has done for humanity as much as he did. I also resent you calling me an Anti-Mormon. I love Mormons and I'm still friends with a few of them in the real world. It's the doctrines that I reject. Please get your facts straight.