Will the Church Persevere?

[spiritmech]

I was wondering if you thought the Church (however you define "Church") would persevere in the end time. Or is there ever a time when it's *safer* to be outside the Church during the end times?

sm

[eschaton]

I was wondering if you thought the Church (however you define "Church") would persevere in the end time. Or is there ever a time when it's *safer* to be outside the Church during the end times?

sm

I think the church will persevere. In my mind that doesn't necessarily mean any of the church will be left on earth. I'm not talking about a rapture. I'm talking about martyrdom. But in either case Christ and the church will end up victorius.

[spiritmech]

I think the church will persevere. In my mind that doesn't necessarily mean any of the church will be left on earth. I'm not talking about a rapture. I'm talking about martyrdom. But in either case Christ and the church will end up victorius.
That's really my concern, not so much about rapture, but victory. The saving of our souls.

[David_A_Reed]

Jesus said, "...I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18) This could be understood as the church persevering. But Jesus also asked, "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) So, it seems those who truly belong to Christ will be relatively few in numbers.

David

[Sheepdog]

Jesus said, "...I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)

actually, gates are defensive structures. it's an image of an aggressive church, breaking down the gates of hell and freeing the captives within.



the church has ebbed and flowed over the course of history and in differing parts of the world. i myself have a hard time imagining the church in a total or overwelming apostacy when the Last Day does come, but that doesn't mean everything will be chipper, either.

i take a distinctively futurist interpretation of 1Th 4:13-18, which clearly implies there will be believers when the Second Coming occurs.


[Edit to add] after thinking on it a little bit more, i'm reminded of an eschatological passage that doesn't seem to get much airplay, compared to Olivet or Revelation. in effect, it's the elephant in the room: (22) For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (23) But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (24) Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. (25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (27) For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. (28) When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28

here i quoted back to verse 22 for context (as you may recall, 1Cor. 15 is the famous resurrection passage), but i'm mainly interested in 24 and after. "The end" will come, but after Christ has destroyed the wordly powers. He must reign untill all his enemies are under his feet, and then the end will come where we will be raised and the Kingdom will be handed back to the Father. Forget the modern, popular images of evil grossly increasing until Jesus has to come and play clean up. the image here is of an increasing expansion of Christ's dominion, not the reverse. i'm not sure that this means that everyone will become a Christian, but clearly the "invisible" Church will be part of this expansion. we see this in process today, where despite the spiritual cesspool of thw West, the Church is ravanously growing in China and elsewhere. (why do we look at Western Europe and the US and assume we are the barameter of the Church's health?)

[Hitch]

I was wondering if you thought the Church (however you define "Church") would persevere in the end time. Or is there ever a time when it's *safer* to be outside the Church during the end times?

smSafer outside?? Yeah sure,,, BTW I can make you a great deal on this here bridge...

[eschaton]

Safer outside?? Yeah sure,,, BTW I can make you a great deal on this here bridge...

According to all the information I've been able to find Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.


http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1006051701445

http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72312

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1434458/posts

[Hitch]

According to all the information I've been able to find Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.


http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1006051701445

http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72312

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1434458/posts After a re-read of Matt 13 let me know if you have a point here.

[eschaton]

After a re-read of Matt 13 let me know if you have a point here.

I read more than one chapter in my Bible, that's the point. You can try to support anything by taking one chapter out of context.

[Hitch]

I read more than one chapter in my Bible, that's the point. You can try to support anything by taking one chapter out of context.
You really hate what Jesus had to say dont you?

[eschaton]

You really hate what Jesus had to say dont you?

It's always interesting to see when preterists know they have no defense they start making derogatory remarks that make no sense.