The Key To Understanding Revelation

[RevSteve45]

Greetings To All In the Name of Jesus!

Much has been written about the Millenium, the New Heavens & New Earth, whether the things in Revelation are literal or allegorical. Whether they have taken place, or whether they have not.

I believe the key to a proper understanding of Revelation can be found in the following verse. The Glorified Christ told John to:

Rev 1:19, Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (KJV)

I believe this gives us a very CLEAR threefold division of Revelation. The things which John had seen (up to that point) was the vision of the Glorified Christ. The things which "are" at the time the book was being written, was the conditions in the 7 churches in Asia, which John was writing individual messages for each church.

Then, there are "the things which shall be "hereafter," i.e., AFTER the first two things. In other words, things which will take place AFTER John had seen his vision of the glorified Christ, and AFTER the age in which the 7 churches in Asia were in, which was the Church Age.

This is reinforced by the fact that the very SAME word, "hereafter" (Greek word meta tauta), is used in Rev. 4:1:

Rev 4:1, After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER. (KJV)

Therefore, the first chaspter of Revelation, "the things which thou hast seen" refers to the actual vision of Christ that John saw.

The "things which are," are in fact the church age, characterized by the letters to the 7 churches in Asia. Btw, this is true, even if you believe that each church in Asia represents a different period of church history.

Finally, the "things which shall be hereafter," is Revelation 4:2-22:21, the things which are about to take place AFTER the Church Age.

This is further emphasized by the fact that John was invited in Rev. 4:1 to "come up hither" by a voice that was "as of a trumpet," immediately BEFORE the "things which shall be hereafter" began to be shown to him. I believe this is a picture of the Rapture, where believers are ALSO "caught up" to Heaven by a voice that is like a trumpet.

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Finally, the "things which shall be hereafter," is Revelation 4:2-22:21, the things which are about to take place AFTER the Church Age.

Odd no one mentions the 'church age' here in the text. You seem to emply a curiously variable standard Steve. But thats another matter.

Hereafter, means any thing future, as in the past, the present, and so on, it is a reference to the sequence of a given set of events, so the interjection of thousands of years of 'church age' history is not required by the text but only a requirement of your eschatology.


Take care

Hitch


The real key to understanding the Apocalypse is the literal meaning of the first three verses...

[adam.naranjo]

RevSteve,


"Things which must shortly take place" NASB

The "Things which you have seen" covers all that had happened up to the ruler that "is now" or "now is". Remember: "and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. The "things which are", are during the time in which John was writing...The same time that the sixth king was ruling -- "now". "That which is to come", speaks of that which will continue to happen after the time in which John is writing. So, in other words, your partially correct. It's your seperation of the text -- its past present and future -- that is incorrect. However, your interpretation of the seven churches is extreamely flawed [hermeneutically]. For the most part only hardcore dispensationalists hold to that ridiculous interpretation -- ahhh, but thats probably what you hold to.

[Manasseh]

Good post Steve, I agree.

Regards
M

[spl_cadet]

Actually the key to understanding it is to realize (as did the ECF's) that it is very much a liturgical text.
I suggest reading Lamb's Supper by Dr. Scott Hahn for more on that.

[RevSteve45]

The "Things which you have seen" covers all that had happened up to the ruler that "is now" or "now is". Remember: "and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

Adam.naranjo,

Hogwash! You CANNOT take something that John sees in Revelation 17, and apply it to what John has seen up until that TIME, in Revelation 1! What John had seen, up until that time, was the vision of Christ, nothing more.

Yes, I am indeed a Dispensationalist. More importantly, when Jesus tells John to write letters to 7 churches in Asia, I believe that is exactly what He meant.

In His Service,
Steve

[Thomas2003]

Yes, I am indeed a Dispensationalist.

Dear Steve,

In Christian love, right there is the source of your error.

I believe, as a former dispensationalist, that to properly interpret Scripture one must not embrace a superficial and unbiblical premise to start from. Dispensationalism does that by embracing a concept of how truth is revealed, instead of revealed truth.

As 1 John 4 shows, the true test of a doctrine is whether or not Jesus Christ's incarnation is real. That which denies the incarnation is anti-christ and in error.

It is very important to maintain the validity of the incarnation in your interpretational scheme. Dispensationalism, by denying the Kingship of Jesus Christ, fails miserably in maintaining a Christian hermeunetic. Either Jesus Christ is God manifested in human flesh or He isn't, Christianity turns on this doctrine.

I would suggest you consider the incarnation and the Chalcedon Creed and test your dispensational hermeunetic in the light of it.

In conclusion, the Jews were wrong in their interpretation of Scripture (e.g., dispensationalism), they were completely wrong, totally wrong, absolutely wrong - they were not wrong in the wrong time and thus right at some future date, they were completely, absolutely and totally in error.

Once you understand this and embrace a Christian eschatology and abandone Judaism, the Scriptures intstead of being two books in one volume will become, correctly, one book in two volumes. At that point the Revelation of John will open up for you.

Cordially,

Thomas

[RevSteve45]

Thomas,

Dispensationalism does not deny the Incarnation.

It does not deny the kingship of Jesus Christ.

It does not cause me to embrace Judaism.

I have been a Dispensationalist for 20 years. I believe it is the best way to "rightly divide" the Word of God.

In His Service,
Steve

[Manasseh]

Dear Steve,

In Christian love, right there is the source of your error.

I believe, as a former dispensationalist, that to properly interpret Scripture one must not embrace a superficial and unbiblical premise to start from. Dispensationalism does that by embracing a concept of how truth is revealed, instead of revealed truth.

As 1 John 4 shows, the true test of a doctrine is whether or not Jesus Christ's incarnation is real. That which denies the incarnation is anti-christ and in error.

It is very important to maintain the validity of the incarnation in your interpretational scheme. Dispensationalism, by denying the Kingship of Jesus Christ, fails miserably in maintaining a Christian hermeunetic. Either Jesus Christ is God manifested in human flesh or He isn't, Christianity turns on this doctrine.

I would suggest you consider the incarnation and the Chalcedon Creed and test your dispensational hermeunetic in the light of it.

In conclusion, the Jews were wrong in their interpretation of Scripture (e.g., dispensationalism), they were completely wrong, totally wrong, absolutely wrong - they were not wrong in the wrong time and thus right at some future date, they were completely, absolutely and totally in error.

Once you understand this and embrace a Christian eschatology and abandone Judaism, the Scriptures intstead of being two books in one volume will become, correctly, one book in two volumes. At that point the Revelation of John will open up for you.

Cordially,

Thomas
When you were a dispensationalist you obviously had NO IDEA what you believed.

This

"It is very important to maintain the validity of the incarnation in your interpretational scheme. Dispensationalism, by denying the Kingship of Jesus Christ, fails miserably in maintaining a Christian hermeunetic. Either Jesus Christ is God manifested in human flesh or He isn't, Christianity turns on this doctrine."

and this

"Once you understand this and embrace a Christian eschatology and abandone Judaism, the Scriptures intstead of being two books in one volume will become, correctly, one book in two volumes. At that point the Revelation of John will open up for you" Prove that you are still clueless.

Regards
M

[adam.naranjo]

RevSteve,


Hogwash! You CANNOT take something that John sees in Revelation 17, and apply it to what John has seen up until that TIME, in Revelation 1! What John had seen, up until that time, was the vision of Christ, nothing more.

I think you totally misunderstood my point. I believe hes talking about the present time in history, and that the book of revelation does correspond to these three time frames that revolve around the present time in general. Keep in mind that we are dealing with 3 things here, the 'things you have seen", "the things which are", "and the things which will take place thereafter". The things John had already seen are obvious, The Things which are NOW have to do with the present situation in History, or the things taking place "NOW". Which things God gave him by vision (While he was on Patmos). LOoking at the Vision you find that there is a KING who is RULING NOW! So, I think the PRESENT situation was during the reign of the sixth king.

What I'm saying is this:

The 'things that are' are the things that are taking place AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY -- During the time of Johns writing. We both agree on that! We just place different parts of the book as the NOW parts.

Now, the question is, which part of the Revelation corresponds to "the things that are [now]" -- what part of Revelation speaks of that time? You seem to believe that the letters to the churches are NOW. (is that right?) . According to Rev 17:10 the sixth king was ruling "NOW". SO, I let both of those sciriptures inform me as to when the events of the revelation are fullfilled. Because the sixth king "now is" I assume "that the things that are [now/present]" includes the same time frame as the "NOW IS" -- During the rule of the sixth king.

Furthermore, we KNOW that the sixth king was ruling during the time of the writing of Revelation because its says that the sixth king "IS NOW [ruling]". SO the "things that are NOW" are during the same time frame -- PRESENT TENCE. If you let "SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE" and read it normaly.

Furthermore most of the Revelation has to do with "things which must shortly take place". Rev 1:1; 22:10 The language here is "quickly", "soon", "right around the corner".

Sounds a lot like what Christ said, "all of these things will come upon this genereation". (Every time 'generation' is used in mathew it speaks of the present generation, not "race".)
Christ also said, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power".
He also said, "this generation will not pass away till all these things take place"...

...What things...

The distruction Jerusalem, which will be trampled under foot until it is destroyed -- simply compare luke 21 and Revelation 11:2 -- "And leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months" .... "and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
After the war in Jerusalem, the gentiles destroyed the temple and tore down each stone -- wow, sounds like what Jesus said in Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13...Sounds like he was destorying Israel just like Sodom and Egypt, I suppose that's why he says, "And there bodies will lie dead in the Great City, which is also called SODOM and EGYPT, where also OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.(Rev 11:8)...

...How were Sodom and Egypt destroyed?...

...Look at the symbolism used in the OT prophets and Poets and see how they speak about the judgments of God on Sodom and Egypt and Like nations (including Israel) -- You will see it corresponds the the 'end times' language in the N.T. God COMES FROM HEAVEN TO THE EARTH AND JUDGES With/In Clouds, lightning, darkness,fire, starts falling from heaven, sun darkend and the moon darkened or turned to blood -- Just like Christ speaking of the Destruction of the temple and the coming persecution:
(Stay w/ me...check out the scriptures)

For example Zeph 1:14 speaks of God's coming judgment on Judah...

14 Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;
Listen, the day of the Lord!
In it the warrior cries out bitterly.
15 A day of wrath is that day,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of destruction and DESOLATION,
A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of CLOUDS and thick DARKNESS,
16 A day of trumpet and battle cry,
Against the fortified cities
And the high corner towers.
17 And I will bring distress on men,
So that they will walk like the blind,
Because they have sinned against the Lord;
And their blood will be poured out like dust,
And their flesh like dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the Lord’s wrath;
And all the land will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the land.


Judgment Against Samaria and Jerusalem
Mic 1:3
3 Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth.
4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
5 All this is because of Jacob’s transgression,
because of the sins of the house of Israel.


Speaking of God's coming in Judgment on Egypt....
Is 19:1
See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.

Speaking of God's coming in Judgment on Davids Enemies (disobedient Israel -- Those who withstood God's KING)
2 Sam 22:10
10 He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
11 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness his canopy around him—
the dark rain clouds of the sky.
13 Out of the brightness of his presence
bolts of lightning blazed forth.

IS 31:4
so the LORD Almighty will come down
to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.

The Lord comes with his Holy Ones..
Deut 33:2
“The LORD came from Sinai
and dawned over them from Seir;
he shone forth from Mount Paran.
He came with myriads of holy ones
from the south, from his mountain slopes.

Its not odd for God to COME...There are many COMINGS of God/Christ... Ex 34: "5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name"....Is 64 Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains would tremble before you!



ez 30:
3 “For the day is near,
Even the day of the Lord is near;
It will be a day of clouds,
A time of doom for the nations.
4 “And a sword will come upon Egypt,

Psalm 97:2
2 Clouds and thick darkness surround Him;
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
3 Fire goes before Him,
And burns up His adversaries round about.
4 His lightnings lit up the world;
The earth saw and trembled.
5 The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the Lord,
At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Ps 104:
4 He makes the winds His messengers,
Flaming fire His ministers.

Nahum 1:3
3 And the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet....5 Mountains quake because of Him,
And the hills dissolve;

Ps 144:
5 Bow Thy heavens, O Lord, and come down;
Touch the mountains, that they may smoke.
6 Flash forth lightning and scatter them;

Hab 3: (GOD COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO JUDGE)
3 God came from Teman,
the Holy One from Mount Paran.
His glory covered the heavens
and his praise filled the earth.
4 His splendor was like the sunrise;
rays flashed from his hand,

[adam.naranjo]

Another thing,

Christ's coming was (accordign to Daniel 7:13) UP to sit on His throne at the Fathers Side. This happened in Christ's ascension. He also CAME to the land to DESTORY Jerusalem because of the covenant breakers in the land. Both were COMINGS in Clouds Just like He came in the O.T.
CHrist is using SCRIPTURAL LANGUAGE...Does that Suprise you, that Christ would speak in scriptural language? It doesn't suprise me.
Revelation also uses O.T. language. SO the scecret to understandign revelation is to read the rest of the Bible First...and let it sink in.


Thankfully, Christ is NOW riding on a horse destroying his enemies with the SWORD from His MOUTH -- THE WORD OF GOD!
"For he must reign until all of His enemies are made a footstool for his feet" ...Because Scripture clearly says that 'HEAVEN is my THRONE and the EARTH is my FOOTSTOOL" (Not the other way around)

[adam.naranjo]

PS. steve, It sounds like you're a progressive dispensationalist if you believe that Christ is reigning NOW...IS that what you believe?

I was a dispy for 10 years, I was first progressive, then Ryrie's particular brand, then because of the obvious problems with both of these views I had to embrace acts 9 -- Mainly because Acts 9 recognizes that hte KINGDOM PROGRAM DID start in ACTS 2. Then I realized the obvious -- Paul talks about the Kingdom in his own latter writings, that it is NOW. At that point I decided to give the orthodox pretersit view a shot...I was amazed. The end.

[Act9_12Out]

Thomas,

What planet are you from? :lmbo: That has to be the craziest description of Dispensationalism I've ever heard...

Adam,


Mainly because Acts 9 recognizes that hte KINGDOM PROGRAM DID start in ACTS 2. Then I realized the obvious -- Paul talks about the Kingdom in his own latter writings, that it is NOW.

Acts 9 recognizes that the Kingdom was offered in Acts 2. If the reason you left the Acts 9 position is centered around the Pauline references to "the kingdom," then I'm sorry you didn't take the time to research and find out what's going on... That must have been one question you forgot to ask Bob Hill...

--Jeremy

[TedO]

Just a note on this passage which is terribly misused, let's look at a literal translation:

Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth. (2 Tim 2:5, Darby's)

"rightly dividing" is orthotomeo

1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways

a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right

2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

So the analogy is to be a good workman (like a carpenter perhaps) you need to "cut straight", or properly handle. It has nothing to do with dividing the word of God into dispensations.
:bonk:

[Jaltus]

Adam,

Do not post back to back posts unless they are specifically written to different people. If necessary, go back and edit your old post, but do not add new ones. If you have questions, please reread the campus decorum (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/view.php?pg=decorum#postlength), noting especially:


The maximum post length is 24K characters. Please keep the points concise. Please limit the number of major points made in a debate/discussion to 1 or 2 per post max as this encourages discourse. Rebuttal posts get undesirably lengthy when addressing many points. Additionally, please allow the other person to respond to your post before making additional substantive posts and points directed towards that person. Multiple posts back-to-back responses to a single poster is not allowed. There are progress bars below the reply boxes to assist you. When making a reply or referring to multiple replies please make use of the Link, Quote and Multi-Quote features. Breaking of posts or multiple posts to post an article is not allowed, if you wish to post an article or such that will exceed the post limit please contact a moderator to get your article posted in the appropriate Bulletin Board section where you may then make a link to in the thread you wish to create for discussion regarding the article. Discussion will not take place in the Bulletin Board sections only articles are posted there. Discussion will take place in the proper forum for the context of the article. If you need assistance with this please do not hesitate to contact a moderator or administrator about this.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Yesterday @ 10:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=163211#post163211)
Hitch:


The real key to understanding the Apocalypse is the literal meaning of the first three verses...

Yep, which Steve is not so literal about. Those pesky little timing verses will getcha every time.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Adam -


I was a dispy for 10 years, I was first progressive, then Ryrie's particular brand, then because of the obvious problems with both of these views I had to embrace acts 9 -- Mainly because Acts 9 recognizes that hte KINGDOM PROGRAM DID start in ACTS 2. Then I realized the obvious -- Paul talks about the Kingdom in his own latter writings, that it is NOW. At that point I decided to give the orthodox pretersit view a shot...I was amazed. The end.

:thumb: ten times over brother.

[RevSteve45]

TedO.

Even so, if we do not properly divide the Word of God into Dispensations, we will be looking around for a tree not to eat from, or sacrifices to offer, or promises to the patriarchs to live by, ot Laws of Moses to keep. Instead, we can recognize that each of those conditions, given by God, were appropriate to that time and place. Even as it is appropriate now to live under the NEW Testament of Grace.

Btw, I am not an "Acts 9" Dispensationalist, just a classic Dispensationalist. I believe that the Dispensation of Grace began with the Resurrection, not in Acts 9.

In His Service,
Steve

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

Hitch said,

The real key to understanding the Apocalypse is the literal meaning of the first three verses...

You replied,


Yep, which Steve is not so literal about. Those pesky little timing verses will getcha every time.

Sorry, Dee Dee, but the first 3 verses of Revelation say NOTHING about the timing of Revelation. Here, I'll post 'em for you:

Rev 1:1-3, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.(KJV)

The ONLY thing said about the "timing" there is "the time is at hand." Gee, I wonder if 2 DAYS would equal "at hand"?? I think so. After all, Peter DID say:

2 Pet 3:8, But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (KJV)

Yep, it looks like 2 ,000 years=2 days, according to GOD'S clock. Nice try, though, Dee Dee!

In His Service,
Steve

[Dee Dee Warren]

I am so sorry Steve, but that is a totally assinine argument. And again you are not being literal but excusing away your explaining away of clear timing verses.



Today @ 07:39 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=164105#post164105)
RevSteve45:

Dee Dee,

Hitch said,


You replied,



Sorry, Dee Dee, but the first 3 verses of Revelation say NOTHING about the timing of Revelation.

they sure so, you just stretch it out beyond recognition. Tell you what, I give you a million dollars in two days. And how long was Christ in the tomb? You cannot possibly believe that argument. (and of course they are OTHER timing verses that cannot be explained away in that fashion) but unfortunately for futurism Steve, the Bible gives us the grid for interpreting this:

Revelation 1:3 - Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Note that this verse tells us that the time is near. Near means then exactly what near means now. I keep hearing people tell me today that the coming of Christ is near and they expect me to understand their words in the natural sense. There is no reason that John should not have expected the same. In order to further clarify this point…

Daniel 8:26 - Therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future.

Daniel is told that his vision was for many days in the future, and in fact we know that the coming of Christ was hundreds of years into his future, thus, many days in the future.

However, very similar phrasing appears in Revelation.

Revelation 22:10 - Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

John is told the complete opposite. If the Bible has any continuity, then is means exactly what that says. The beginning of the events of the book of Revelation were near.

Does 1 Peter 3:8 mean that all time references in Scripture are basically meaningless? Why would God put them in then in the first place?

(I thank Jonathin Sarfati from Answers in Genesis for the following - mine interjections are clearly marked)

*************

“The text says ‘one day is like [or as] a thousand years’ — the word ‘like’ (or ‘as’) shows that it is a figure of speech, called a simile, to teach that God is outside of time (because He is the Creator of time itself). [IT DOES NOT TEACH A MAGIC FORUMULA IN WHICH WE CAN SUBSTITUTE ANY LONG PERIOD OF TIME IN A PASSAGE IN WHICH GOD CLEARLY COMMUNICATES A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. - ME] In fact, the figure of speech is so effective in its intended aim precisely because the day is literal and contrasts so vividly with 1000 years — to the eternal Creator of time, a short period of time and a long period of time may as well be the same.

The fact that the passage is actually contrasting a short and long period can be shown by the fact that Peter is quoting Psalm 90:4 (Peter’s statement ‘do not forget’ implies that his readers were expected to recall something, and this passage has this very teaching). This reads:

‘For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, OR LIKE A WATCH IN THE NIGHT.’

This is synonymous parallelism, where a long period of a thousand years is contrasted with two short periods: a day, and a night watch. But those who try to use this verse to teach [THAT GOD CANNOT COMMUNICATE TIME EFFECTIVELY TO US – ME] should note the additional part in caps. For if they were consistent, they would have to say that a watch in the night here also means 1000 years. It’s difficult to imagine that the same Psalmist is thinking on his bed for thousands of years or that his eyes stay open for thousands of years

The immediate context of the Psalm is the frailty of mere mortal man in comparison to God. This verse amplifies the teaching, saying that no matter how long a time interval is from man’s time-bound perspective, it’s like a twinkling of an eye from God’s eternal perspective. “

***********

And all this being said, which already decimates that argument, the words in question are “near” “soon” “at hand” “this generation” et cetera, not “day.” Revelation does not say that those things were a few “days” away, it says at hand and near. BTW, God had NO PROBLEM communicating a LONG period of time in Revelation 20 with regards to the thousand years. Since some seem to think that a day equals a thousand years and a thousand years equals a day, then maybe we just plug in the magic formula and see that Revelation 20 is really only talking about 1,000 days!!

Plus here is something also that most do not notice. Everyone seems to love to say that a thousand years is as a day…. But do not notice the complete CANCELLING OUT of any concept of a rule in which to wiggle out of time texts, because the text ALSO says a day is as a thousand years!! Now why didn’t Daniel, when he read that the captivity was to last 70 years not get really worried if you could just substitute a thousand years for every day. Such an idea makes a liar of God and renders His inspired time texts meaningless. If time was not an important issue, He would not have mentioned it. If the only idea to be communicated was constant readiness, He could have just said that!!


Nice try though :wink:

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

I am very sorry. But I could never believe the RIDICULOUS teaching of Preterism, that every prophecy in the Bible, from the Second Coming of Jesus, to the Millenium & New Heavens & New Earth, have been fulfilled.

However, if you wish to believe it, fine. Just do not ask me to.

In His Service,
Steve

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hey Steve,

Is that your refutation of my point? Just simply brush it off? That is no way to deal with a Scriptural argument. What do you hold more dear? Previously cherished views, or what the Scripture says? I do hope that you are planning on answering my points.

Also, I can understand some of your concern. Before you say someone's view is ridiculous, it would help to understand it don't you think?

I DO NOT BELIEVE THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST HAS HAPPENED nor do I believe EVERY prophecy is fulfilled. Please do not misrepresent me in that manner.

That would make me a heretic. I am not a heretic. I fully affirm all the essentials of the historic Christian faith as does every other person in leadership here at this forum. Heretical views are not permitted to be expressed in this section of the forum.

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

I am sure you will forgive me if I answer someone who calls Dispensational Futurism "asinine," by characterizing Preterism as "ridiculous."

If you do not wish Preterism to be labeled in this way, perhaps you should re-consider how you label the views of others.

I apologize, however, if I misunderstood Preterism, to believe that its followers believed all prophecies in Scripture are fulfilled.

In His Service,
Steve

[Thomas2003]

When you were a dispensationalist you obviously had NO IDEA what you believed.

Dear Sir,

I've read through Steve's other thread on Dispensationalism, I quoted his first post below - it looks to be identical to the dispensationalism I was taught from childhood and held to for probably 20 years or so.

I'll stand by my statements.

Cordially,

Thomas



Dispensationalism, Not Hyper-Dispensationalism





RevSteve45:

Greetings To All In The Name of Jesus!

Let me say, first of all, that I am a Dispensationalist. In other words, I believe that in various periods of time, God dealt with man according to specific requirements, or tests. For instance, today, God is no longer requiring me not to eat from a certain tree, as He did Adam & Eve.

However, I am not an Ultra-Dispensationalist, as some people appear to be. In other words, I do not believe that the Gospel that the early apostles preached, was substantially different from the Gospel that Paul preached. Nor do I believe that the Body of Christ began with the conversion of Paul. I believe that ALL of the Epistles are in fact addressed to ALL members of the Body of Christ.

I. Dispensation Of Innocence (Genesis 2:16-3:20)

Requirement: Adam & Eve were commanded not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge Of Good & Evil. If they did so, they would die (spiritually, Gen. 2:16-17).

Favorable Beginning: Everything was perfect, sinless, and under man's dominion, with only one command to obey (Gen. 2:17).

Purpose Of God: To see if man would remain innocent and be true to His trust under the most favorable and perfect conditions (Gen. 2:16-17).

Failure of Man: Eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good & evil, and gave it to her husband, who also ate. Their eyes were opened, not only to the INTELLECTUAL knowledge of good & evil (as God has), but an EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of good & evil as well, by committing evil, in disobeying God's command.

Judgment By God: Because of his sin, man reaped sickness, pain, sorrow, misery, condemnation, death, and loss of his soul. He "gained" fellowship & union with Satan and demons, an inferior position, power to do evil and be evil, a life of self-gratification, unclean lusts and habits, unbelief, separation from God, hardship, sufferings, hell, eternal damnation, and other curses too numerous to mention. He became depraved (Romans 1), darkened (eph. 4:18), blind in mind (2 Cor. 4:4), defiled in conscience (Heb. 10:22, obstinate and rebellious (Isa. 28:14, Romans 8:1-13), lustful (Eph. 2:1-3), evil continually (Gen. 6:5), full of abominations (Jer. 17:9, Mark 7: 19-21, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Gal. 5:19-21, Col. 3:5-10) and lost, thus making all his offspring, with all their faculties, constituted sinful by nature (Romans 5:12-21, Eph. 2:1-3) and children of the devil by choice and practice (John 8:44, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:1-3, 1 John 3:8-10)

Promise Of Redemption: God promised the Seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15), who would bruise the serpents head, even though the serpent would bruise His heel. This was the first promise of the coming Messiah.

II. Dispensation Of Conscience (Genesis 3:21-8:14)

Requirement: Human beings were tested to see if they would obey their own conscince regarding right and wrong (Gen. 3:22; 4:7, 15; 6:1-7). According to Gen. 3:21, God made Adam & Eve "coats of skins," and He may have shown them at this time how to make an animal sacrifice to worship God. In Chapter 4, both Cain & Abel know how to offer sacrifices, so they had probably learned from their parents.

Length: 1, 656 years, from Adam's Fall to the 600th year of Noah (Gen. 5:1-29; 7:6, 11).

Favorable Beginning: A new beginning altogether, with humanity having a knowledge of God and how to worship Him.

Purpose of God: The purpose of God, now that man knew good and evil, was to guide mankind in the proper exercise of his conscience to do the right, and to refuse the wrong.

Failure Of Man: Adam failed (Gen. 6:3), as did Cain (Gen. 4:1-16), the descendants of Cain (Gen. 4:17-24), the descendants of Seth(Jude 14), the daughters of men (Gen. 6:1-7), and mankind in general (Gen. 6:5-6). In the whole dispensation we DEFINITELY know of only 10 people who walked faithfully with the Lord: Abel, Enoch, and Noah and his family. It may well be that others walked with God as well, judging by their names. However, this is by no means certain.

Judgment of God: God sent the Flood, to destroy all human life on the planet, except for 8 souls, and all animals except those preserved by the Ark (Gen. 6:8-8:14; Matt. 24:37-39; 1 Pet. 3:18-21).

Promise Of Redemption: God showed grace & mercy to mankind, by giving him another chance to continue to participate in God's eternal plan of redemptrion on the earth (Gen. 6:8-22; 7:1; 1 Pet. 3:18-21). By preserving 7 times as many clean animals as unclean, mankind could continue to offer up sacrifices to God, thereby showing faith in God's promise of an eventual Redeemer (Gen. 7:2; 8:20-22). People were saved by grace through faith in the coming Redeemer, as we are now saved by grace through faith in the Redeemer who has already come (Eph. 2:8-9).

I will continue on the various dispensations in my next post.

In His Service,
Steve



Greetings To All In The Name of Jesus!

Let me say, first of all, that I am a Dispensationalist. In other words, I believe that in various periods of time, God dealt with man according to specific requirements, or tests. For instance, today, God is no longer requiring me not to eat from a certain tree, as He did Adam & Eve.

However, I am not an Ultra-Dispensationalist, as some people appear to be. In other words, I do not believe that the Gospel that the early apostles preached, was substantially different from the Gospel that Paul preached. Nor do I believe that the Body of Christ began with the conversion of Paul. I believe that ALL of the Epistles are in fact addressed to ALL members of the Body of Christ.

I. Dispensation Of Innocence (Genesis 2:16-3:20)

Requirement: Adam & Eve were commanded not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge Of Good & Evil. If they did so, they would die (spiritually, Gen. 2:16-17).

Favorable Beginning: Everything was perfect, sinless, and under man's dominion, with only one command to obey (Gen. 2:17).

Purpose Of God: To see if man would remain innocent and be true to His trust under the most favorable and perfect conditions (Gen. 2:16-17).

Failure of Man: Eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good & evil, and gave it to her husband, who also ate. Their eyes were opened, not only to the INTELLECTUAL knowledge of good & evil (as God has), but an EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of good & evil as well, by committing evil, in disobeying God's command.

Judgment By God: Because of his sin, man reaped sickness, pain, sorrow, misery, condemnation, death, and loss of his soul. He "gained" fellowship & union with Satan and demons, an inferior position, power to do evil and be evil, a life of self-gratification, unclean lusts and habits, unbelief, separation from God, hardship, sufferings, hell, eternal damnation, and other curses too numerous to mention. He became depraved (Romans 1), darkened (eph. 4:18), blind in mind (2 Cor. 4:4), defiled in conscience (Heb. 10:22, obstinate and rebellious (Isa. 28:14, Romans 8:1-13), lustful (Eph. 2:1-3), evil continually (Gen. 6:5), full of abominations (Jer. 17:9, Mark 7: 19-21, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Gal. 5:19-21, Col. 3:5-10) and lost, thus making all his offspring, with all their faculties, constituted sinful by nature (Romans 5:12-21, Eph. 2:1-3) and children of the devil by choice and practice (John 8:44, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:1-3, 1 John 3:8-10)

Promise Of Redemption: God promised the Seed of the woman (Gen. 3:15), who would bruise the serpents head, even though the serpent would bruise His heel. This was the first promise of the coming Messiah.

II. Dispensation Of Conscience (Genesis 3:21-8:14)

Requirement: Human beings were tested to see if they would obey their own conscince regarding right and wrong (Gen. 3:22; 4:7, 15; 6:1-7). According to Gen. 3:21, God made Adam & Eve "coats of skins," and He may have shown them at this time how to make an animal sacrifice to worship God. In Chapter 4, both Cain & Abel know how to offer sacrifices, so they had probably learned from their parents.

Length: 1, 656 years, from Adam's Fall to the 600th year of Noah (Gen. 5:1-29; 7:6, 11).

Favorable Beginning: A new beginning altogether, with humanity having a knowledge of God and how to worship Him.

Purpose of God: The purpose of God, now that man knew good and evil, was to guide mankind in the proper exercise of his conscience to do the right, and to refuse the wrong.

Failure Of Man: Adam failed (Gen. 6:3), as did Cain (Gen. 4:1-16), the descendants of Cain (Gen. 4:17-24), the descendants of Seth(Jude 14), the daughters of men (Gen. 6:1-7), and mankind in general (Gen. 6:5-6). In the whole dispensation we DEFINITELY know of only 10 people who walked faithfully with the Lord: Abel, Enoch, and Noah and his family. It may well be that others walked with God as well, judging by their names. However, this is by no means certain.

Judgment of God: God sent the Flood, to destroy all human life on the planet, except for 8 souls, and all animals except those preserved by the Ark (Gen. 6:8-8:14; Matt. 24:37-39; 1 Pet. 3:18-21).

Promise Of Redemption: God showed grace & mercy to mankind, by giving him another chance to continue to participate in God's eternal plan of redemptrion on the earth (Gen. 6:8-22; 7:1; 1 Pet. 3:18-21). By preserving 7 times as many clean animals as unclean, mankind could continue to offer up sacrifices to God, thereby showing faith in God's promise of an eventual Redeemer (Gen. 7:2; 8:20-22). People were saved by grace through faith in the coming Redeemer, as we are now saved by grace through faith in the Redeemer who has already come (Eph. 2:8-9).

I will continue on the various dispensations in my next post.

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Today @ 02:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=164145#post164145)
RevSteve45:

Dee Dee,

I am very sorry. But I could never believe the RIDICULOUS teaching of Preterism, that every prophecy in the Bible, from the Second Coming of Jesus, to the Millenium & New Heavens & New Earth, have been fulfilled.

However, if you wish to believe it, fine. Just do not ask me to.

In His Service,
Steve Well Steve you've gone from entertaining to pathetic. And so common.


But you show good cause why fewer and fewer give DF thinking a second thought.



H

[RevSteve45]

Thomas,

Please note, as you quote my post:

I do NOT deny the Incarnation.

I do NOT deny the kingship of Jesus Christ.

I do NOT embrace Judaism.

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 10:31 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=163959#post163959)
RevSteve45:

TedO.

Even so, if we do not properly divide the Word of God into Dispensations, we will be looking around for a tree not to eat from, or sacrifices to offer, or promises to the patriarchs to live by, ot Laws of Moses to keep. Instead, we can recognize that each of those conditions, given by God, were appropriate to that time and place. Even as it is appropriate now to live under the NEW Testament of Grace.

Btw, I am not an "Acts 9" Dispensationalist, just a classic Dispensationalist. I believe that the Dispensation of Grace began with the Resurrection, not in Acts 9.

In His Service,
Steve Aint that a crack up? DFs work so hard to get around anything Jesus said about timeing or the resurrection etc that I reckon it should be no surprize that they even ignore the only passage in which Jesus actually talks about anything like a dispensational change.


Luke 16:16
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(KJV)

But then what does Jesus have to do with DF thinking anyways?

Take care

Hitch

[Justme]

Hi Dee Dee,

YOU WROTE:

Is that your refutation of my point? Just simply brush it off? That is no way to deal with a Scriptural argument. What do you hold more dear? Previously cherished views, or what the Scripture says? I do hope that you are planning on answering my points.

Also, I can understand some of your concern. Before you say someone's view is ridiculous, it would help to understand it don't you think?

I DO NOT BELIEVE THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST HAS HAPPENED nor do I believe EVERY prophecy is fulfilled. Please do not misrepresent me in that manner.

That would make me a heretic. I am not a heretic. I fully affirm all the essentials of the historic Christian faith as does every other person in leadership here at this forum. Heretical views are not permitted to be expressed in this section of the forum.
*****************

This is going straight to permanent archive!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine this.. I do not believe the second coming of Christ has occurred either, nor do I believe every prophecy is fulfilled...someday we will talk. Because I also hope you are planning on answering my points.

Justme

[mickiel]

is also the ONLY way to understand it or any other book in the bible. It must be given from heaven, there IS NO OTHER WAY. There is NOTHING the human can DO to entice heaven to GIVE it. I don't care what you list, it is inncorrect. John 3:27, IS THE ONLY way to receive ANYTHING from God. He gives it to the human on HIS own terms, in his OWN TIME, according to his own will and purpose.

[adam.naranjo]

Jaltus,
Sorry, I forgot.

Please forgive missed spelling errors.

Acts9_12out,


Acts 9 recognizes that the Kingdom was offered in Acts 2. If the reason you left the Acts 9 position is centered around the Pauline references to "the kingdom," then I'm sorry you didn't take the time to research and find out what's going on... That must have been one question you forgot to ask Bob Hill...

First of all, when I said the "kingdom program was started", thats exactly what I meant. The kingdom program STARTS with the offering and acceptance of the Kingdom by the Jewish people. It's part of the program. I never said that the kingdom was "inaugurated". There is a difference. (The Jews will return during the tribulation and say, "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" -- This will bring the kingdom program back, Correct?)
This was the termonology I used when I was a dispensationalist. You CANNOT have the Jews accepting something that was NOT ACTUALLY OFFERED. This is where the acts9 dispensationalists are CONSISTANT they recognize that the offering was REAL and that the kingdom program was underway. IF you don't like my termonology thats one thing, but I do know what I'm talking about.

Secondly, I did not leave acts9 because of Pauls Kingdom termonology alone. It was more than that...I'm not that easily swayed. HOWEVER, it is at this point that acts28'ers are MORE consistant than acts9'ers. As far as I'm concerned only an irresponsible, and dishonest exegete -- save that they are very deceived -- could misread these scriptures...

Acts 28: "31 Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ"

Romans 14:17 " 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"

Eph 5:5 " 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Col 1:12 "12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves"

Col 4:11 "These are the only Jews among my fellow workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me."

Acts 13: 46 "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ”‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”


acts 15: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe... "He made no distinction between us and them, because he purified their hearts by faith....We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
(Notice here that the basis for God's non-distinction is that both were purified by Grace through faith in the SAME way)

Acts 15: 14 Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 ”‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’
18 that have been known for ages.
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who ARE turning to God.

If this only speaks of Gentiles under the Disp of CIRCUMCISION then why does it say the "the Gentiles who ARE turning to God" -- Present tense? PS...God's ministry to the Gentiles WAS known in ages past according to verse 18. This rebuilding of the House of david takes place with ONLY the REMNANT and the Gentiles who become part of God's covenant people. Makes more sense in the Covenant view. (You should also take into acount that the promise of the HOLY spirit is ONLY given to those in the COVENANT with GOD...its the regeneration of ISRAEL and its extended to Gentiles who also thare Jehovah's name. This is another area where acts 28'er who do not believe in the present ministry of the Spirit are more consistent)



Acts 17:11 -- Paul is preaching the Gospel in Barea... and the bareans, "examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." The Bareans found what Paul was preaching, and they found it in the OLD COVENANT SCRIPTURE.

Acts 19:8 "Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God." -- Granted Paul may not have been preaching the Gospel of the kingdom (as you call it), however, I think this fits the pattern so far exemplified -- that is that paul was preaching the Good News about the reigning King and His kingdom.

Sounds like Paul is preaching Kingdom

Acts 26:18 "In order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the Power of Satan to God, that they may recieve an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me"
Col 1:12"who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves."


Acts 28:23 "And when they had set a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God...saying, "Let it be known to you therefore, that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles"
In the CONTEXT the Salvation Paul was referring to was the Salvation of the Kingdom...its very obvious because Paul mentions NOTHING ELSE -- nothing besides the kingdom.

Acts 26: 22 “And so, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, [b]stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He should be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.” Sounds like the Gospel was not a MYSTERY after all...it was NOTHING outside of what the prophets spoke of.

Romans 4:16 "For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law [jews], but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you” )
The promise is fulfilled, there is not longer Jew or Gentile, Both are Abrahams children and in covenant with God.

Romans 9:6 "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is a word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls... "even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word upon the land, thoroughly and quickly.”

The meaning here is undeniable. Almost EVERY major scholor agrees, God's covenant people, His BELOVED, are now made up of those who were previously 'not his' -- weather gentiles, or scatard jews who broke covenant with God. Furthermore, only the REMANT would be saved in the coming judgment. God chose some from his people [in the Old Covenant] and some from among the present day remnant and Gentiles -- THESE constitute TRUE Israel.

Sounds like the Gospel that went to the Gentiles wasn't a mystery after all...

Romans 15:7 Wherefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. 8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, 9 and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written,
“Therefore I will give praise to Thee among the Gentiles,
And I will sing to Thy name.”

10 And again he says,
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people.”

11 And again,
“Praise the Lord all you Gentiles,
And let all the peoples praise Him.”

12 And again Isaiah says,
“There shall come the root of Jesse,
And He who arises to rule over the Gentiles,
In Him shall the Gentiles hope...

"They who had no news of Him shall see,
And they who have not heard shall understand.”




I could go on and on through out the Epistles...I'm just going to stop. Honest readings of these passages in context clearly destroy dispensationalism. I know that you can go through each of these scriptures and offer "possible" alternative interpretation. But don't you think its a problem when you have to give difficult alternative explanations to hundreds of passages? I suggest you read recent scholorship that has shown that the JEWS NEVER depended on LAW for salvation, they never had a works righteousness. And that Paul was arguing against using the LAW (particularly circumcision and cerimonial laws) as a badge of entrance into the covenant, thereby excluding the Gentiles. This is based on evidence from much study of the dead sea scrolls and other early manuscripts of the Jews. THis defeats your idea that the OT teaches salvation by works, and that Paul taught it by grace. In fact all of scripture teaches salvation by COVENANT which includes FAITH evidenced by works. Don't make me go through all the passages where Paul speaks this way... There all over the place -- you know where they are.


Peace out,
Adam

Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Wow, thats covenantal laguage used to speak of those who are cut out of covenant with God because of disobedience and faithlessness in the covenant.

Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 01:00 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=164261#post164261)
Justme:
This is going straight to permanent archive!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine this.. I do not believe the second coming of Christ has occurred either, nor do I believe every prophecy is fulfilled...someday we will talk. Because I also hope you are planning on answering my points.

Justme

I never said you did believe those things, you assumed I did say that perhaps by appropriating for yourself comments directed generally or towards others. I believe your points have been answered by those much more capable than I, perhaps some day I also will attempt, but those who have attempted have not found you particularly coherent on that topic. But to come into a topic in a forum where you are fully aware that a denial of the physical resurrection is not appropriate and to insinuate at it once again speaks of a bit of obsessiveness and I ask you to cease that. When a person has clearly indicated that they either will not (due to time constraints or personal preference) answer a particular poster or point, for said poster to pursue them is considered stalking behaviour. If I get some time, I will answer your points. It is not high on my list as I have in my own personal estimation determined that I do not believe it will be fruitful. However, I have some friends who might benefit from such an exchange. (and for the record a while back I DID answer your points, you just didn't like the answer, that is not the same as NOT answering and beating my head against a wall is not a hobby I enjoy)


If Steve indicates that he wishes not to answer my points, I will not pursue him into threads and needle him to do so. If it comes up again in the normal course of debate, that is a different story, but I am just not that obsessed.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Yesterday @ 09:23 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=164156#post164156)
RevSteve45:

Dee Dee,

I am sure you will forgive me if I answer someone who calls Dispensational Futurism "asinine," by characterizing Preterism as "ridiculous."

You misunderstood several things. First of all, I was not offended by your labeling of ridiculous, things like that do not perturb me whatsoever. I was offended at your misrepresentation of what I believe, which you have apologized for. And I did not call DF assinine in my post, I called your explaining away of time references as assinine, not the whole point of view. That was just simply a horribly bad argument.

But you can call preterism ridiculous all you want, no problem here.

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

Well, in any case, I do not think it is "asinine" at ALL, to believe that the numerous Scriptural references to the iminent timing of end-time events is being stated in terms of God's timing, not human timing. God is outside of time, in eternity. What may be "soon," or "at hand" in the timing of God, is, I think, entirely different than the same terms as we use them. That was Peter's whole point, that God does not view time the same way as human beings do.

In His Service,
Steve

[studyhound]

Today @ 05:45 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=164497#post164497)
RevSteve45:

Dee Dee,

Well, in any case, I do not think it is "asinine" at ALL, to believe that the numerous Scriptural references to the iminent timing of end-time events is being stated in terms of God's timing, not human timing. God is outside of time, in eternity. What may be "soon," or "at hand" in the timing of God, is, I think, entirely different than the same terms as we use them. That was Peter's whole point, that God does not view time the same way as human beings do.

In His Service,
Steve

Yes it is 'asinine' to believe that could either would not or could not commuicate to his creation the timing of events. You have to some pretty incredible exigises(sp) gymnastics to get around it. Besides you said that if there is no signs to take something symbolic then you must take it literaly. I see no signs saying this is symbolism so you must take them literaly.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 08:45 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=164497#post164497)
RevSteve45:

Dee Dee,

Well, in any case, I do not think it is "asinine" at ALL, to believe that the numerous Scriptural references to the iminent timing of end-time events is being stated in terms of God's timing, not human timing. God is outside of time, in eternity. What may be "soon," or "at hand" in the timing of God, is, I think, entirely different than the same terms as we use them. That was Peter's whole point, that God does not view time the same way as human beings do.

In His Service,
Steve


I exegeted the passage and went over your assertion thoroughly and demonstrated how assisine it was. You simply restated your assertions and plugged your ears and went "nanananananana!!!" That is not an answer.

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

How much of a debate do you expect, when you call someone's views "asinine"??

Just asking.

In His Service,
Steve

[Dee Dee Warren]

An honest one. When something is assisine I say so. I don't coddle bad arguments. You appear to be simply taking the nearest exit out of having to answer my post.

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

I said,

“Sorry, Dee Dee, but the first 3 verses of Revelation say NOTHING about the timing of Revelation.”

You replied,


they sure so, you just stretch it out beyond recognition. Tell you what, I give you a million dollars in two days. And how long was Christ in the tomb? You cannot possibly believe that argument. (and of course they are OTHER timing verses that cannot be explained away in that fashion) but unfortunately for futurism Steve, the Bible gives us the grid for interpreting this:

Rev 1:3, Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Dee Dee, there is only one problem with that argument! Almost 2,000 years have passed SINCE those words for written, and the things written in Revelation have not yet come to pass! Don’t try to tell me this is a “prophecy” of the destruction of Jerusalem, either! Not only are there FAR more events described in revelation than occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem, but it was written about 25 years AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem! Therefore, it can HARDLY be a prophetical book, if that is what it is referring to, can it? Don’t worry, it is not!


Note that this verse tells us that the time is near. Near means then exactly what near means now. I keep hearing people tell me today that the coming of Christ is near and they expect me to understand their words in the natural sense. There is no reason that John should not have expected the same. In order to further clarify this point…

Dan 8:26, therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future.

Daniel is told that his vision was for many days in the future, and in fact we know that the coming of Christ was hundreds of years into his future, thus, many days in the future.

However, very similar phrasing appears in Revelation.

Rev 22:10, And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

Yes, Dee Dee, the return of Jesus was spoken of as being “soon,” and “at hand.” Yet it’s been almost 2,000 years SINCE that time! Or do you have a double standard?? One for OTHER end-time events, and one for the Second Advent of Christ??


John is told the complete opposite. If the Bible has any continuity, then is means exactly what that says. The beginning of the events of the book of Revelation were near.

Does 1 Peter 3:8 mean that all time references in Scripture are basically meaningless? Why would God put them in then in the first place?

Dee Dee, with regards to statements like “soon” or “at hand,” or “near,” I think ALL that was being said is that the writer did not know WHEN the events described in that way, were going to take place. Therefore, they used an AMBIGUOUS word like “at hand,” “soon,” or “near.” If I say some certain event is “near,” I may mean “near” as I see it, or “near” as GOD sees it. I do not believe any CERTAIN time period was being stated, simply that it was “near” in SOME way.

I DO believe, however, that history has CLEARLY shown Dispensational Futurism to be CORRECT! Those that hoped for a “soon” (as Preterists see it) fulfillment of the events of Revelation, have been forced to make virtually the WHOLE book, nothing more than symbols. One person’s symbol has about as much validity as another. Meanwhile, NO evidence can be seen, either that Satan is bound, or that Christ is ruling over the Earth for 1,000 years, WHATSOEVER!


In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Today @ 12:46 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=165117#post165117)
RevSteve45:

Dee Dee,

I said,

“Sorry, Dee Dee, but the first 3 verses of Revelation say NOTHING about the timing of Revelation.”

You replied,



Dee Dee, there is only one problem with that argument! Almost 2,000 years have passed SINCE those words for written, and the things written in Revelation have not yet come to pass! Don’t try to tell me this is a “prophecy” of the destruction of Jerusalem, either! Not only are there FAR more events described in revelation than occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem, but it was written about 25 years AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem! Well steve at this point Im tempeted to use your common 'there is no verse in',,, Revelation that says that retort. But I wont. I will demand proof of your claim though.
Therefore, it can HARDLY be a prophetical book, if that is what it is referring to, can it? Don’t worry, it is not!



Yes, Dee Dee, the return of Jesus was spoken of as being “soon,” and “at hand.” this is assumption,,, I invite you to prove it though
Yet it’s been almost 2,000 years SINCE that time! Or do you have a double standard?? One for OTHER end-time events, and one for the Second Advent of Christ?? Now I will use your tactic. There is no passage verse or portion of the Apocalypse that mentions the Second Advent . If fact I will pay $500 to the first person able to quote Revelation any where antichrist or second advent is found.




Dee Dee, with regards to statements like “soon” or “at hand,” or “near,” I think ALL that was being said is that the writer did not know WHEN the events described in that way, were going to take place. Therefore, they used an AMBIGUOUS word like “at hand,” “soon,” or “near.” If I say some certain event is “near,” I may mean “near” as I see it, or “near” as GOD sees it. I do not believe any CERTAIN time period was being stated, simply that it was “near” in SOME way. LMBO The writer positively and twice in the first two sentences declares the events are just about to unfold. And this declaration is to real living breathing people who believed what the Apostle was teaching.

But I do note your 180 turnabout Steve. Miracles do happen ,because 18 hours ago there was nothing in R1-3 that had any connection with the timeing of the events described ,,according to RevSteve. But wonder of wonders,today they're back. Make up your mind Steve' But dont try the 'God's time BS that has no place in adult conversation.


I DO believe, however, that history has CLEARLY shown Dispensational Futurism to be CORRECT! Those that hoped for a “soon” (as Preterists see it) fulfillment of the events of Revelation, have been forced to make virtually the WHOLE book, nothing more than symbols. One person’s symbol has about as much validity as another. Meanwhile, NO evidence can be seen, either that Satan is bound, or that Christ is ruling over the Earth for 1,000 years, WHATSOEVER! Two pertanent quotes form Jesus Christ ;

'get thee behind me satan'



Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(KJV)

You are not only wrong but you imply dishonesty and much more against our Lord making such a foolish statement. Cearly he told us to go into all the world ,,, solely on the basis of his direct and literal claim to 'all power'.

Its bad enough you believe foolish lies, Its much worse to spread them around.







In His Service,
Steve Of course you're welcome to tell me just what Jesus has been up to these past two millennia, since he's not doing his job of ruleing according to you.

Hitch

[RevSteve45]

Hitch,

Just 2 things:

Rev 19:11-21, And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (KJV)

Now, Hitch, are you going to SERIOUSLY tell me, with a STRAIGHT face, that these verses do NOT refer to the Second Coming of Christ?? If you do, you will lose ANY & ALL credibility, believe me!

Second, regarding the binding of Satan. Do you see ANY evidence, even the TINIEST LITTLE BIT of evidence, that the power of Satan has in ANY way been restricted in the past 2,000 years?? If so, you must be blind, deaf & dumb. For then you would be about the ONLY person I have evcer met, who believes that Satan is somehow been restricted. Or, for that matter, that Christ is reigning. He may INDEED have "all power in Heaven and in earth." However, that is a FAR, FAR CRY from actually RULING upon the Earth!

In His Service,
Steve

Satan bound! HA H HA! That's rich! :lol: :lol:

[Dee Dee Warren]

Satan bound! HA H HA! That's rich!

Be careful Who you are laughing at....

Matthew 12:29 - Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Jesus disagrees with you. Shameful that you give so much credit to satan to be ruling and none to Christ.

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

Sorry for laughing. I was just waiting for the EVIDENCE that ANYONE can show me, that Satan's power has been in the TEENSIEST little way, bound!

I agree that the power of Satan is bound in the lives of BELIEVERS! Otherwise, Jesus could not be the Lord of a Christian's life. However, his power over the world in GENERAL, seems to me to be COMPLETELY unrestricted!

I freely acknowledge the power & rule of Christ in the lives of believers, and in the Church. However, something in the neighborhood of 3/4 of the world is NOT Christian. Someone will have to show me how it is that Christ is ruling in the lives of UNBELIEVERS. Paul said hat Satan is the prince and power of the air. He rules this world system, that is NOT subject to Christ in any way.

Also, if Jesus has been reigning over the Earth for 2,000 years now, as Hitch CLAIMS, how can this be?? I thought the rule of Jesus is only for ONE Thousand years??

In His Service,
Steve

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 07:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=165117#post165117)
RevSteve45:


Dee Dee, there is only one problem with that argument! Almost 2,000 years have passed SINCE those words for written, and the things written in Revelation have not yet come to pass! Don’t try to tell me this is a “prophecy” of the destruction of Jerusalem, either!

Sigh. The items prophesied to be soon did come true. Let God be true and every man and his newspaper eisigesis a liar. In other words, you do not want to be confused by the facts. Of course if those things did not come to pass, then there is a bona fide false prophecy. Of what point is the test of the false prophet in Deut 18? A false prophet could always say, "Well I am talking about God's time....."



Not only are there FAR more events described in revelation than occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem, but it was written about 25 years AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem!

Were you there? You do realize that very capable scholarship, even nonpreterist scholarship, disagrees with you? Or were you unaware of that? You do realize that the early date was a majority position in the not too distant past, and is coming again into majority. I just heard Norman Geilser (hardly a friend to preterists) state that there is no reason to date ANY NT book after 70AD.



Therefore, it can HARDLY be a prophetical book, if that is what it is referring to, can it? Don’t worry, it is not!

Your handwaving seems to be getting desparate.


Yes, Dee Dee, the return of Jesus was spoken of as being “soon,” and “at hand.”

Depends upon what you are referring to as the "return." If you are referring to the Second Coming, there is not one verse in Revelation which speaks of the Second Coming directly. Try again.



Yet it’s been almost 2,000 years SINCE that time! Or do you have a double standard?? One for OTHER end-time events, and one for the Second Advent of Christ??

Here is some advice Steve, before engagin an opposing view in debate try to at least get a basic understanding of what they believe so you don't look so foolish saying silly things like that.




Dee Dee, with regards to statements like “soon” or “at hand,” or “near,” I think ALL that was being said is that the writer did not know WHEN the events described in that way, were going to take place.

YOu do not think the Greek language had adequate ways of expressing that? How about not saying anything about the time at all? Do you have children Steve? Next time they tell you that they will clean their room "soon," cut em some slack. They have a thousand or so years to do it right? I mean after all, they could be referring to God's time. LOL. God's time is only relevant to Him, not to things written to US for US to understand. That is patently absurd. Why can't you believe what the Bible says? How come you are getting all figurative on us? Tsk, tsk, tsk. Naughty, naughty, naughty.


Therefore, they used an AMBIGUOUS word like “at hand,” “soon,” or “near.” If I say some certain event is “near,” I may mean “near” as I see it, or “near” as GOD sees it.

Excuse me while I wipe off my screen. Did you actually type that with a straight face or were your fingers crossed behind your back first? Do you honestly (come on now) believe that "soon" and "near" are AMIBIGOUS? Wow. Well how about this Steve, what do YOU mean when you say that Jesus is coming soon? Are you being ambiguous? Why even include the word at all. Many times the NT writers simply expressed certainty and said nothing about timing. But in fact John said we KNOW it is the last hour....... (no uncertainty there - it is hard to kick against the goads Steve)



I do not believe any CERTAIN time period was being stated, simply that it was “near” in SOME way.

Patookey. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.


I DO believe, however, that history has CLEARLY shown Dispensational Futurism to be CORRECT!

DF is brand new historically speaking. What history are you talking about? 88 reasons why Jesus is coming back in 88?



Those that hoped for a “soon” (as Preterists see it) fulfillment of the events of Revelation, have been forced to make virtually the WHOLE book, nothing more than symbols.

Have you taken a look at the preferred method of OT interpretation byt the Apostles? Silly me thinking that apocolyptic literature is just that. But the fact is that you are forced to take didactic timing statements and make them mean nothing, and God out to be someone who cannot tell time or communicate it properly.


One person’s symbol has about as much validity as another.

So when Paul says that the covenant on Mount Sinai is symbolic for then, that was hogwash? That it would be just as valid to say it was symbolic of a deal on a Happy Meal?


Meanwhile, NO evidence can be seen, either that Satan is bound, or that Christ is ruling over the Earth for 1,000 years, WHATSOEVER!

Besides the fact that the rest of the NT clearly teaches it. Oh and by the way Steve, who owns the cattle on the 1001st hill? Just checking. Probably satan.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 09:25 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=165167#post165167)
RevSteve45:

Dee Dee,

Sorry for laughing. I was just waiting for the EVIDENCE that ANYONE can show me, that Satan's power has been in the TEENSIEST little way, bound!

I am looking for the lightning bolt. That is sheer blasphemy.


I agree that the power of Satan is bound in the lives of BELIEVERS! Otherwise, Jesus could not be the Lord of a Christian's life. However, his power over the world in GENERAL, seems to me to be COMPLETELY unrestricted!

Wow, God is that powerless huh? Christ is NOW plundering Satan's Kingdom.


I freely acknowledge the power & rule of Christ in the lives of believers, and in the Church. However, something in the neighborhood of 3/4 of the world is NOT Christian. Someone will have to show me how it is that Christ is ruling in the lives of UNBELIEVERS. Paul said hat Satan is the prince and power of the air. He rules this world system, that is NOT subject to Christ in any way.

You do not believe the whole world is subject to God?


Also, if Jesus has been reigning over the Earth for 2,000 years now, as Hitch CLAIMS, how can this be?? I thought the rule of Jesus is only for ONE Thousand years??

In His Service,
Steve

Steve again, here is some advice, that is an act of mercy. Read a bit on the point of view before embarassing yourself in debate. And answer my question please, who owns the cattle on the 1001st hill.

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

The CLEAR teaching of Scripture, is that Satan will NOT be bound, UNTIL the Millenium. Or do you think the Millenium has already occurred, or that we are in it?

1 Pet 5:8, Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (KJV)

Eph 2:2, Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, THE SPIRT THAT NOW WORKETH IN THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE(KJV)

1Thes 2:18, Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. (KJV)

1 Tim 1:20, Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
(KJV)

It would seem that NEITHER Peter, NOR Paul, agree with you that Satan is currently bound! Peter says that he is going about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour! Funny, JUST LIKE he was in the book of Job! Paul says he is the prince of the power of the air, and that he is NOW WORKING in the children of disobedience.

Btw, I see that Moderators are apparently allowed to post back to back posts. It must be nice to have a double standard, huh?

In His Service,
Steve

[adam.naranjo]

Rev45,

Christ began binding Satan’s power while he was on earth, Matt 12:26 “And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?... 20 “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 “Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

I like the way Luke says it:
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own homestead, his possessions are undisturbed; 22 but when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied, and distributes his plunder.

Now, who is plundering who? I believe that Christ is teaching them that he will be binding Satan and plundering His house. Because the Kingdom of God has come. First God will use the Satan, as the Revelation tells us. Satan will be used by God during the tribulation period. Satan is given power for a time. BUT, God will bind Satan. Revelation says this, "And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years". See the connection between what Christ said and what Revelation says? Now I believe that Christ did this already, and that we are in the reign of Christ. I do NOT believe that it is a literal 1,000 years. And furthermore, I believe one must be very ignorant of the proper ways of interpreting apocalyptic material, like John's Revelation, in order to take this literally. I think that those who allow for "quickly", "near", and "this generation" to mean a long, long 2,000 year period of time and cannot see that the metaphor of 1,000 years speaks of a long, long, period of time are simply double minded and dishonest with their handling of scripture. Christ is speaking literally when he says, "this generation will not pass away", and "some here will not taste death" , and "all of this will come upon this generation". John is speaking a allegorically when he says "1,000" years. The ruling of the saints in heaven and on earth will be "long". Enjoy it, your in it.

Concerning your denial of the present 'millennial' reign of Christ on the grounds that, Satan’s "power over the world in GENERAL, seems to me to be COMPLETELY unrestricted", leaves you on rather weak footing. ON what grounds does it "seem" that Satan is "unrestricted"? Who' s the judge of something like that? GOD? or you? In case you don't keep up on things, the church is growing like never before. Thousands of people are converting in the Asian countries every day. Millions of Christians cover the African continent -- where a few hundred years ago, none had heard the name of Christ. The great commission is being fulfilled right in front of your eyes... Christ wasn't kidding when he said, "MAKE THE NATIONS MY DISCIPLES, BECAUSE ALL, I repeat, ALL authority and power has been given to ME!! WOW, that sounds a lot like, Daniel 7:13:

"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
“And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.



And keep in mind, Lk 11:20 “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own homestead, his possessions are undisturbed; 22 but when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied, and distributes his plunder. 23 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.

I know that Christ isn't teaching this directly, but a principle does apply to those who stand in the way of dominion theology, and who teach that we should burry our heads in the sand and let the world go to pot, because the "end times" are coming anyway, and it "seems" to be getting worse. Lets not do that.


Adam

[RevSteve45]

Adam.naranjo,

I completely AGREE, that the power of Satan in BELIEVERS, has indeed been plundered. Satan has no power or authority over me as a BELIEVER! To the believer Satan is indeed a defeated foe.

Yet, consider this: Out of a population of perhaps 5 billion human beings, perhaps ONE billion, at most, are Christians. If I was in Satan's shoes, I would look around Earth, see that I still had about 80% of the power that I have ALWAYS had, and say, "Wow! I'm still pretty powerful."

I notice that neither you, NOR Dee Dee, NOR Hitch is able to offer an answer to the verses I posted from Peter, that Satan goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. NOR could they answer PAUL'S teacing that Satan is the prince of the power of the air. Or verses where Paul said Satan hndered him.

Satan has been defeated at the Cross, to be sure. However his FINAL defeat will not comer until he is cast into the Lake of Fire. UNTIL that time Satan is the ruler of this present world system in which we live. His power & authority in the lives of UNBELIVERS, roughly 3/4 of the world, is complete. for he is their rightful lord & master, as long as they do not submit themselves to Christ for salvation.

In His Service,
Steve

[Dee Dee Warren]

I am otherwise occupied in some other debates right now. I had previously answered that issue before here:

http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=923

[Hitch]

RevSteve45:

Dee Dee,

Sorry for laughing. I was just waiting for the EVIDENCE that ANYONE can show me, that Satan's power has been in the TEENSIEST little way, bound!

Well Steve have you been translated from the power of darkness in to his glorious kindom? I dare say you place less value on this, that inspires all the angels in heaven to praise, than your eschatological position. Or are you claiming you are righteous from birth and never were part of the enemies capivity?

Hitch

[adam.naranjo]

RevSteve45:

Adam.naranjo,

I completely AGREE, that the power of Satan in BELIEVERS, has indeed been plundered. Satan has no power or authority over me as a BELIEVER! To the believer Satan is indeed a defeated foe.

Yet, consider this: Out of a population of perhaps 5 billion human beings, perhaps ONE billion, at most, are Christians. If I was in Satan's shoes, I would look around Earth, see that I still had about 80% of the power that I have ALWAYS had, and say, "Wow! I'm still pretty powerful."

I notice that neither you, NOR Dee Dee, NOR Hitch is able to offer an answer to the verses I posted from Peter, that Satan goes about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. NOR could they answer PAUL'S teacing that Satan is the prince of the power of the air. Or verses where Paul said Satan hndered him.

Satan has been defeated at the Cross, to be sure. However his FINAL defeat will not comer until he is cast into the Lake of Fire. UNTIL that time Satan is the ruler of this present world system in which we live. His power & authority in the lives of UNBELIVERS, roughly 3/4 of the world, is complete. for he is their rightful lord & master, as long as they do not submit themselves to Christ for salvation.

In His Service,
Steve

You know what? You really piss me off You really make my mouth froth and my toes curl.

Adam, please refrain from strong language. I suggest you refrain from posting until you can do it coolly, and politely

I just spent a whole post explaining the Scriptures I posted, and why they answer your question. And then you turn around and claim that I have not offered any scripture. Stop lying, and start actually reading my posts. you have yet to acutally deal with anything that I have said. You cannot agree with what I said, because what I said was not that, "Satan has no power or authority over me as a BELIEVER"

Your quote from first peter was BEFORE 70 a.d. IN my post I explain that Satan was still roaming the earth during this time because GOD was going to use him during the tribulation to persecute the saints. SO your scripture from Peter does not dis-prove my conclusion. It agree with it.

Furthermore, YOU never answered MY reply. You cant just say, "the power of Satan in BELIEVERS, has indeed been plundered". That is NOT what the text says You need to be HONEST with the scripture. Don't adulterate the word of God.
The CONTEXT is SATANS KINGDOM!! "how then shall his [Satan’s] kingdom stand?... 20 “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 “Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."

SATANS KINGDOM IS BEING LOOTED. Is it that hard to understand? Not, Satan’s kingdom in the hearts of believers. Satan’s dominion. What does Satan have dominion over? "He is the prince of this world". BUT the book of revelations states that He was BOUND after being used to persecute the church. If you read the history you will find that the persecution against the church was GREAT! Actually if your read the Bible you would see that the persecution was GREAT! And they were persecuted at the hands of apostate Israel, who was under the control of Satan.
BUT, the binding that Christ did as shadow in His earthly ministry has now been completed in reality after God was finished with Him in 70 a.d. It took place. And it accomplished its purpose. The nations can no longer be deceived, and blinded beyond the ability to accept the Gospel. And now Christ is going forth through all the earth, through the Church, and fulfilling the great commission.

You must think the great commission was a horrible joke. Make the nations my disciples, baptize them and teach them, and I will be with you. Do you suppose he means literally? He will be with us literally? Your such a hardcore literalist you must think he is running around somewhere. Anyway, the reason for the great commission is because Christ will advance his kingdom, plunder the devil's, until he is King over all the earth, and the vast majority of people worship him. This was the view of many early fathers. (I'm not going to get into that right now)


Anyway, again you prove my point. I asked for evidence that the Devil is reigning over the world, rather then Christ. (I already told you that the Quote from Peter proves nothing, because I agree that at the time Satan was not bound) Do you have any other evidence rather then subjective crap? I can give you subjective evidence as well. Again, the CHRUCH is growing by leaps and bounds, His name is being preached from one end of the globe to the other. Christ's kingdom is advancing, NOT declining. IN the real world, Christ is advancing not declining. There is NO great tribulation around the corner. If anything Christians could rise up and take over the world militarily if they wanted. You must be living in a dream world.


Adam.


So, here are my questions.
1. Tell my why the binding of satan that Jesus refers to is a binding only over believers.
2. Tell me why you think that the binding of satan in Revelation has not been fulfilled.
3. Tell me why you contend that the Kingdom of God is NOT advancing.

[RevSteve45]

Adam,

You seem to have a rather bizarrre concept of Satan's kingdom. The kingdom & power of Satan is in the hearts of MEN AND WOMEN. It is not some fortress somewhere that Jesus and the Church are plundering!! Satan has power and authority because people are BORN in sin and shapen in iniquity, and therefore, Satan has a LEGAL right over them. When a person lives in sin & iniquity, and lives according to the lust of their flesh, they have WILLINGLY given over control of their lives to Satan.

Eph 2:2, Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, THE SPIRIT THAT NOW WORKETH IN THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.(KJV)

Like I said, something in the neighborhood of 80 PERCENT of the world is not Christian. Therefore, 80 PERCENT of the world is under the power and control of Satan!! Tell me, PLEASE, how the Muslim terrorists in the Middle East are NOT under the control of Satan?? Tell me, PLEASE, how that despots who murder millions of their people, are NOT under the control of Satan?? Tell me, PLEASE, how billions of worshippers of Buddhism, Hinduism, Confusionism, Taoism, the New Age movement, are NOT under the control of Satan?? Tell me, PLEASE, how that murderers, child molesters, rapists, kidnappers, etc. are NOT under the control of Satan??

You see, I would REALLY be interested to know, if Satan is bound, just WHY evil is so prevalent in the world?? How is it that people still get demon-possessed?? How is it tht there is NO evidence of the ruke with a "rod of iron" that Jesus is supposed to reign with during the Millenium, the exact SAME period when Satan will be bound. If Jesus IS ruling with a "rod of iron," maybe He is doing so secretly?? Jesus is ruling over the CHURCH, to be sure, and that Church is GROWING, to be sure. But He is NOT ruling over the ungodly in the world, as He will during the Millenium

If the Church is supposed to be ushering in the Millenium, I have to say we have a loooooong ways to go! There are those 4 billion people yet to be converted still. Jesus is not ruling in THOSE people';s lives! They are still under the power and control of Satan. Yes, the Church is expanding, but so is the number of unbelievers. JESUS will usher in His Kingdom in the Millenium, a LITERAL 1,000 year rule of Christ over the earth. But the Church will not.

In His Service,
Steve

[Justme]

Hey Hitch,

Would it count if I can show you that satan is doing the backstroke in a sulfur lake as of quite a while ago.(biblically speaking)

I realize that need not destroy his historic influence on the nasties of the world, but I think it shows a teeny bit of hindrance.

We would have to go to another forum to do it, but I would have the verses for you.

For 500 bucks, I'll even use a spellchecker.

Justme

[Hitch]

Today @ 05:33 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=165992#post165992)
Justme:

Hey Hitch,

Would it count if I can show you that satan is doing the backstroke in a sulfur lake as of quite a while ago.(biblically speaking)

I realize that need not destroy his historic influence on the nasties of the world, but I think it shows a teeny bit of hindrance.

We would have to go to another forum to do it, but I would have the verses for you.

For 500 bucks, I'll even use a spellchecker.

Justme Perhaps you intended this for someone else?

H

[Dee Dee Warren]

Justme, I am getting pretty tired of you bopping into this section with ideas that you acknowledge in your posts do not belong here. Please refrain.

[Hitch]

Adam,

You seem to have a rather bizarrre concept of Satan's kingdom. The kingdom & power of Satan is in the hearts of MEN AND WOMEN. It is not some fortress somewhere that Jesus and the Church are plundering!!

Really Adam how could you make such a blunder? Dont you know Jesus' 'Strong Man' was an ancient circus performer?

H

[Hitch]

You see, I would REALLY be interested to know, if Satan is bound, just WHY evil is so prevalent in the world?? [/quote] Men are born evil Steve. Since you occasionally like to take a strict stance wrt what is included or not I'll remind you the very first murder account has no mention of satan nor any allusion to its influence
How is it that people still get demon-possessed??
Why not? there is no problem wrt the enemy being active inthe world in fact its prophesied by our Lord in M13.
How is it tht there is NO evidence of the ruke with a "rod of iron" that Jesus is supposed to reign with during the Millenium, the exact SAME period when Satan will be bound. [/quote] LOL Well lets see,,, No you're right again Steve, the Soviet Union is making gains all ov er the world. The NAZIs are plundering Europe and Africa and in no time the Roman Legions will march again....Has the demise of these massively powerful antichrist regimes escaped your notice? But no dout even as Jesus personally claimed to have 'conquered the world' there were nay-sayers complaining the he didnt do it to their satisfaction.

If Jesus IS ruling with a "rod of iron," maybe He is doing so secretly?? No, He just fogot to ask you for the definition and since there is NO evidence he understands 'dispensational truth' he got it all wrong.
Jesus is ruling over the CHURCH, to be sure, and that Church is GROWING, to be sure. But He is NOT ruling over the ungodly in the world, as He will during the Millenium
Rom 13:1-2
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.


If you were a real literalist you would have known that.


But its your low view of the already accomplished work of Christ, a common DF failure, that drives this nonsenical approach. Why else would anyone calim that with Christ ascended and the HS given ,,,failure is certain.

And its always the same ones who proclaim this teaching that Christ must appear bodily before order can be established when he says in plain terms it is to our advantage that he not be here physically[quote]

Hitch

[Justme]

Hi Hitch,

Ah, poop, I thought it was you offering $500 for biblical verses. I had hopes there. However, now when I do a search for "$500" I get a hit on this thread, but I can't find it. Oh, well.

Sorry, Hitch, but go ahead and send me the 5 C anyhow if you want.

Justme

[RevSteve45]

Hitch,

You said,


Rom 13:1-2
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

If you were a real literalist you would have known that.

Yes, Hitch I DO indeed know that! God permits all KINDS of evil in the world NOW, that He will NOT permit, when Christ rules during the Millenium. At THAT time, Christ WILL rule with a rod of iron, i.e., He will put down all rebellion. At the END of the Millenium, after the consignment of Satan & sinners to the Lake of Fire, Christ will turn over the Kingdom to His Father. That is what Paul taught in 1 Cor. 15:

1 Cor 15:24-25, Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(KJV)


Hitch said: But its your low view of the already accomplished work of Christ, a common DF failure, that drives this nonsenical approach. Why else would anyone claim that with Christ ascended and the HS given ,,,failure is certain.

Hitch, it is not the failure of CHRIST that we believe in, it is the failure of MANKIND. Throughout the Bible, we ALWAYS find that it is only a REMNANT of people that are truly serving God. So it is today. We have many large churches and denominations, in which many of the people, the leadership included, do not ev en believe in the reality of Heaven or Hell. Only the ones in those churches who are BORN AGAIN, will inherit the Kingdom of God. It vwas very similiar in the days of the Mosaic Law. Many people kept the Laws and offered the sacrifices, but in many, many cases, it was only a superficial religion. Those who had saving faith in God were a remnant.


Hitch said: And its always the same ones who proclaim this teaching that Christ must appear bodily before order can be established when he says in plain terms it is to our advantage that he not be here physically

I must have missed that verse!

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Today @ 06:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166161#post166161)
Justme:

Hi Hitch,

Ah, poop, I thought it was you offering $500 for biblical verses. I had hopes there. However, now when I do a search for "$500" I get a hit on this thread, but I can't find it. Oh, well.

Sorry, Hitch, but go ahead and send me the 5 C anyhow if you want.

Justme Occasionally I do J...Where's the original and you 'verse'?

H

[Hitch]

Today @ 08:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166220#post166220)
RevSteve45:

Hitch,

You said,



Yes, Hitch I DO indeed know that! God permits all KINDS of evil in the world NOW, that He will NOT permit, when Christ rules during the Millenium. Chapter&verse?
At THAT time, Christ WILL rule with a rod of iron, i.e., He will put down all rebellion. At the END of the Millenium, after the consignment of Satan & sinners to the Lake of Fire, Christ will turn over the Kingdom to His Father. That is what Paul taught in 1 Cor. 15: Hmmmm Christ long ago said evil would grow side by side with good until the end. Perhaps you're speaking of some other christ. And a quick review of Cor 15 did not reveal the enforced righteousness you describe above,,again ;Chapter&verse?

This does make a good case that you have littel concern and give little value to the 'not by might nor by power but by My Spirit' premise.



1 Cor 15:24-25, Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(KJV)



Hitch, it is not the failure of CHRIST that we believe in, it is the failure of MANKIND. Yawn,,, you really dont think much of the HS and the process Christ inagurated do you? Didnt the same Paul you quote above say use creation style language to describe,in part ,what Christ has accomplished on our behalf? Does the term and idea behind 'new creation' carry so little wieght with you?
Throughout the Bible, we ALWAYS find that it is only a REMNANT of people that are truly serving God. So it is today. We have many large churches and denominations, in which many of the people, the leadership included, do not ev en believe in the reality of Heaven or Hell. Only the ones in those churches who are BORN AGAIN, will inherit the Kingdom of God. It vwas very similiar in the days of the Mosaic Law. Many people kept the Laws and offered the sacrifices, but in many, many cases, it was only a superficial religion. Those who had saving faith in God were a remnant.

Hitch said: And its always the same ones who proclaim this teaching that Christ must appear bodily before order can be established when he says in plain terms it is to our advantage that he not be here physically

I must have missed that verse! Well thats no surprise ;


John 16:5-8
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(KJV)


Not much of a case for your top down enforced righteousness...which curiously always seems to go with some sort of freewillyism...



And it just gets worse for you...

John 16:9-11
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
(KJV)


However even though JESUS CHRIST says Of righteousness, because I go to my Father to support your eschatology you will discover a passage aroud anything close to a normal 'literal' understanding.





In His Service,
Steve Take care


Hitch

[RevSteve45]

Hitch,

You said,


Yawn,,, you really dont think much of the HS and the process Christ inagurated do you? Didnt the same Paul you quote above say use creation style language to describe,in part ,what Christ has accomplished on our behalf? Does the term and idea behind 'new creation' carry so little wieght with you?

You really do not know what you are talking about, do you?? I have ALWAYS freely acknowledged the rule & reign oof Jesus Christ in the hearts of BELIEVERS! But we are not talking about that. We are talking about the rule of Christ over the entire EARTH, over ALL people, during the Millenium. It is an entrely different situation than during the Church Age.

The verses you quoted ALL apply to the Dispensation of Grace. If you understood Dispensations CORRECTLY, you would know thathe work of Christ in the CHURCH, and His reign during the MILLENIUM, are 2 entirely different things.

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 11:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166340#post166340)
RevSteve45:

Hitch,

You said,



You really do not know what you are talking about, do you?? I have ALWAYS freely acknowledged the rule & reign oof Jesus Christ in the hearts of BELIEVERS! But we are not talking about that. We are talking about the rule of Christ over the entire EARTH, over ALL people, during the Millenium. It is an entrely different situation than during the Church Age. Yawm..chapter&verse ?


The verses you quoted ALL apply to the Dispensation of Grace. If you understood Dispensations CORRECTLY, you would know thathe work of Christ in the CHURCH, and His reign during the MILLENIUM, are 2 entirely different things.

In His Service,
Steve LOL Chapter&verse?

[adam.naranjo]

Steve,



You seem to have a rather bizarrre concept of Satan's kingdom. The kingdom & power of Satan is in the hearts of MEN AND WOMEN. It is not some fortress somewhere that Jesus and the Church are plundering!! Satan has power and authority because people are BORN in sin and shapen in iniquity, and therefore, Satan has a LEGAL right over them. When a person lives in sin & iniquity, and lives according to the lust of their flesh, they have WILLINGLY given over control of their lives to Satan.


Actually, you are only partially right. Because Satans kingdom is primarily in the hearts and minds of men its fruits are manifest through out the world. Sinfullness, misuse of Gods physical resources, social and political ideaologies and the like are also part of Satan's kingdom. As you yourself note concerning the Muslim nations, that the political and social agendas are part of Satans Kingdom.


Eph 2:2, Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, THE SPIRIT THAT NOW WORKETH IN THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.(KJV)


Yes, again, during that time satan was unbound and controlling the sons of disobedience, apostate Israelites. Again, this scripture speaks of the time before the binding of satan.



Tell me, PLEASE, how billions of worshippers of Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, the New Age movement, are NOT under the control of Satan?? Tell me, PLEASE, how that murderers, child molesters, rapists, kidnappers, etc. are NOT under the control of Satan??

You see, I would REALLY be interested to know, if Satan is bound, just WHY evil is so prevalent in the world??

How is it that people still get demon-possessed??

How is it tht there is NO evidence of the rule with a "rod of iron" that Jesus is supposed to reign with during the Millennium, the exact SAME period when Satan will be bound. If Jesus IS ruling with a "rod of iron," maybe He is doing so secretly??


I never said that Satan is not at work. I said that Satan is BOUND FROM DECEIVING THE NATIONS. WHAT DOES DECEIVING THE NATIONS MEAN? WELL LOOK AT THE CONTEXT OF REVELATIONS. IN REVELATIONS IT SAYS THAT WHEN SATAN IS UNBOUND HE IS ABLE TO DECEIVE THE WORLD TO COME AGAINST GOD'S PEOPLE. "And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city."
SATANS IS BOUND IN SO FAR AS HIS ABILITY TO DECIEVE THE NATIONS EN MASS, TO MAKE THEM COME AGAINST GOD'S PEOPLE. Satan has been bound in this sense.

So, to answer your question, NO, Satan cannot control anyone. Evil stills exists, and always will. But Satan’s kingdom is being plundered.

----------------------------------------------------

As far as demon possession goes. Again, I repeat that Satan’s binding has to do with his ability to deceive the nations en mass. (in such a way that he can come against God's elect en mass) Satan’s ability to control people in such away that they are "demon possessed" against the will of Christ and the name of our Lord. Satan cannot control people.

--------------------------------------------------

With regard to Christ's ruling. If you would read the scriptures regarding the kingdom you would see that It is a progressive thing. The kingdom grows progressively.


31 He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 and this is smaller than all other seeds; but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

Here we have Christ’s teaching about the kingdom advancement. The kingdom starts small...the smallest of all kingdoms. Then it grows, and grow, and grow, like a tree...slowly. Until its the largest of all kingdoms, and birds (nations) come and rest in its branches.


33 He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened.”

Hear Christ gives the same idea. A very small speck of leaven is put into the bread, yet after it bakes a while it begins to rise, and the leaven fills the whole bread. In fact, we know now that the leaven multiplies in the bread over and over while it bakes so that when its done baking leaven is disbursed through out the bread -- which causes the rising of the bread. This speaks of the great influence the kingdom will have. HOWEVER, its clear that its over time, and that it starts small and then grows big -- over time while it bakes.

This does NOT fit in with the premill understanding of the return of Christ. Where every one sees Christ on T.V. and bows before Him when they see him coming in the Cloud. Where Christ kills millions of his enemies with a light from his mouth so that EMEDIEATELTY the kingdom is set up. In the premill understanding there is not growth, there is no leavening, or growing. There is an immediate response, where everyone bows the knee when they see Christ coming down on a clouds with a horse. This is NOT what scriptures speaks of.




If the Church is supposed to be ushering in the Millennium, I have to say we have a loooooong ways to go! There are those 4 billion people yet to be converted still. Jesus is not ruling in THOSE people’s lives!

We don't have a long way to go. T.V., Internet, and Radio have speed up the process greatly. And when Christ has dominion over the airwaves the Gospel will go out even stronger. Remember, mass communication is a new thing...not even a century old yet. We are on right track, with millions accepting Christ every year.

Your correct, in a sense, to say that Christ is not ruling over those who don't know him. But, refer back to my discussion on the gradual growth of the Church. Its a battle...that’s the point of Rev 19. God wants to work with the church, through the preaching of his word, to take dominion over these hearts. And that’s what’s happening.

--------------------------------------------------------

So perhaps now you can answer my question.



So, here are my questions.
1. Do you not agree with my notion that Satan's kingdom is not only about Heats and Minds, but also ideas, movements, etc.
2. Respond to my reasoning about mass communication and the FACT that the church has been growing extreamly fast over the last century.
3. Please explain to you why the Scriptures from Mark that I discussed do not say what they seem to say. (that growth of the kingdom is gradual)


Adam

[RevSteve45]

Adam,

You said,


1. Do you not agree with my notion that Satan's kingdom is not only about Hearts and Minds, but also ideas, movements, etc.

Yes, I agree. Inthe past century, it seems that various forms of unbelief within the Church ITSELF has been increasing exponentially. More & more people, it seems, do not believe in Heaven or Hell, miracles, etc. The New Age movement & the occult have grown, as well as grown more & more acceptable to Christians. Cults like the Mormons & JW's have grown. So have religions like Islam & Hinduism. Mass murder seems to have reached an all-time high in the 20th Century.

I honestly cannot see how Satan is bound in ANY way whatsoever. His power over unbelievers appears to be virtually unrestricted. Besides that, even if Satan WAS bound, it would only be for ONE thousand years. It has been almost 2,000 since the Cross. OK, so he will not deceive "the nations" until after he is released from the abyss. But I honestly do not see these various movements & religions being "defeated." They are growing, although Christianity grows as well.


2. Respond to my reasoning about mass communication and the FACT that the church has been growing extreamly fast over the last century.

Adam, the mass media & the internet, is both a force for great good, as WELL as a force for great evil. I cannot speak about tv evangelists, since I do not watch ANY of them. But from the things I have read & heard, it seems like there are a LOT of Word of Faith preachers out there, and a LOT of preachers pretty much "making merchandise of the Gospel." I am not saying they are ALL that way. I enjoy listening to Chuck Smith regularly myself.

No doubt many millions are reached through tapes, videos, etc. But there is a lot of X-rated stuff on the internet & TV & movies. The same media that broadcasts Bily Graham, broadcasts sex & violence in movies, TEN times as much as religious broadcasts. So, yes, mass media & the internet is both a blessing & a curse. I myself watch virtually NO network tv, except for news, there is hardly anything worth watching.


3. Please explain to you why the Scriptures from Mark that I discussed do not say what they seem to say. (that growth of the kingdom is gradual)

I quite agree that the growth of the kingdom of God is gradual. But I really do not think that there will EVER come a point when we will have converted the whole world to faith in Christ, or even a great majority of it. Rememember that even Jesus HIMSELF questioned if He would find faith alive on the Earth when He returns:

Luke 18:7-8, And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (KJV)

Paul also said:

2 Tim 3:13, But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. (KJV)

It is as I said. Even while the Church grows in numbers, unbelief sin WITHIN the Church grow as well, as do the various movements & ideologies I discussed earlier. I believe those who are truly BORN AGAIN within the Church will ALWAYS be a remnant, just as the true men & women of faith in Israel were a remnant. The MAJORITY of people in modern-day churches appear to be religious but lost, going through a form & a ritual. I see no Scriptural basis for believing that the Church will eventually convert the whole Earth. EVANGELIZE the whole Earth? Yes. But not convert it.

Then again, that is just my opinion. With that & 50 cents you can buy a cup of coffee (though not a very good one) from a machine. I may be wrong. I HOPE I am wrong. But I do not see a great revival movement sweeping the Church, and converting the whole world.

What I see is this: The Church, the PURE church of born-again believers who have kept themselves unspotted from the world, will be raptured out of the world. All who have heard the Gospel at that time & rejected it, or who have been once saved, and fallen into habitual, known sin, God will send a strong delusion. That part of the Church which is worldly & unbelieving will be left behind. The Tribulation will start, and somehow, in some miraculous way, 144,000 Jews will believe upon their Messiah, become saved, and will try to evangelize those who have not yet heard the Gospel. Many will indeed be saved, but be martyred by Antichrist. At the end of 7 years, Jesus will return, WITH His saints, and destroy Antichrist & his armies. Satan will THEN be cast into the abyss, and Christ will rule for 1,000 years. At the end of that time, Satan is released for a short time, and deceives many, and leads them in a final revolt against God, whgich God destroys with fire from Heaven. After this, there is the Great White Throne Judgment, Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, and the Heavens & Earth are purged with fire, and God makes a NEW Heaven & Earth, rules on Earth from the New Jerusalem for all eternity.

And that's the way it is....err, WILL be, from a Dispensational perspective.

In His Service,
Steve

[drbrumley]

07-31-2003 @ 05:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=163933#post163933)
Dee Dee Warren:



Yep, which Steve is not so literal about. Those pesky little timing verses will getcha every time.


OH BROTHER!!! UM< I mean Sister!!! LOLOLOL!

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 07:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166647#post166647)
drbrumley:




OH BROTHER!!! UM&lt; I mean Sister!!! LOLOLOL!

Which you actually agree with me with DrB. You should be on my side with those. You agree that they mean exactly what they appear to mean. We differ in that you wrongly think they were postponed, but you agrfee that Jesus and Paul definitely meant to communicte something that should have occured in the first century, you closet preterist you.

[drbrumley]

ROFL!!!! yes thats our differnce.

As for being a closet Preterist,

[Dee Dee Warren]

So you agree with me as against Steve that the timing references mean what they appear to mean. I would appreciate you correcting him on not taking God to be able to tell and communicate time. He seems to think that time statements are meaningless.

[Dee Dee Warren]

/ot you need an avatar

[drbrumley]

yes I do, thanx for reminding me. I'll do that tonight when I get home from work

[RevSteve45]

DrBrumley,

Yes, PLEASE show me how "clear" and "unambiguous" phrases like "soon" or "at hand" REALLY mean "tomorrow" or "the day after tomorrow" or even "next year"!! :lmbo: :lmbo:

In His Service,
Steve

[Dee Dee Warren]

You have got to be kidding. You have iced the cake with a statment like that.

DrB how DARE YOU believe that God can communicate effectively and knows what words mean. Don't you know that RevSteve who hyperlitralizes everything else (surprised he doesn't think God is large bird), will not stand for that??? So straighten up and fly right :rofl: :rofl:

Rev, you are making Jerry look coherent.

PS: Nice way to twist my words too. That was not particuarly honest of you. I challenge you to produce one statement here by a preterist that said anything like you represented.

[John Reece]

Today @ 08:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166960#post166960)
RevSteve45:

DrBrumley,

Yes, PLEASE show me how &quot;clear&quot; and &quot;unambiguous&quot; phrases like &quot;soon&quot; or &quot;at hand&quot; REALLY mean &quot;tomorrow&quot; or &quot;the day after tomorrow&quot; or even &quot;next year&quot;!! :lmbo: :lmbo:

In His Service,
Steve

:huh:

Do I need to do a word study of "soon" and "near" in the NT?

[RevSteve45]

John Reece,

You said,


Do I need to do a word study of "soon" and "near" in the NT?

Not really. It is obvious they mean nothing even REMOTELY similiar to what Peterists claim they mean.

Neither, for that matter, does "generation" in Matt. 24, which Peter uses to mean "the Church."

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

08-04-2003 @ 08:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166960#post166960)
RevSteve45:

DrBrumley,

Yes, PLEASE show me how &quot;clear&quot; and &quot;unambiguous&quot; phrases like &quot;soon&quot; or &quot;at hand&quot; REALLY mean &quot;tomorrow&quot; or &quot;the day after tomorrow&quot; or even &quot;next year&quot;!! :lmbo: :lmbo:

In His Service,
Steve
If this referes to the Second Advent:


Matt 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(KJV)


Why doesnt this:


Matt 26:63-64
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(KJV)

Jesus quotes the same passage.

H

[RevSteve45]

Hitch,

They BOTH refer to the Second Coming. The real question is, "Who was Jesus referring to when He said, "YE shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.""??

I think He was simply referring to unbelievers in general, not the High Priest & Sanhedrin in particular.

In His Service,
Steve

[adam.naranjo]

Steve,

You dodged my questions. I'm starting to wonder if you have any desire for honest discussion.


Thanks for taking the time to answer my qustions. However, I think you have a very limited understanding of the overall impact of the Gospel in the world. I suggest you study Church history. You will find that there have always been heretics in the Church. At many times there have been many more. During the dark ages many people had no understanding of the Gospel. The Church was worse off overall during that period. The church is actually healthy today compared to the dark ages. In case you never had the chance to take an ancient history class I think you should know that ancient rome made america look like a church sunday school class. Ancient rome sanctioned the molestation of Children daily in the temples. Worship of Greek God's consisted of 24hr orgies with children and animals. You mentioned something about mass murder getting worse. Again, you prove you lack of knowlege. Mass muder under the Roman government is considered the worst in the History of mankind. The Romans killed anyone and everyone. Included the worst persecution of Christians in the history of mankind. The persecution went on for over a century. BUT, did things get worse? NO!! Things got better. After a while the leaders of rome were converted, and the Idols were destroyed. Things have progressively gotten better and better in the world. Sure, there are ups and downs. But, the growth is gradual.

Furthermore, it is a statistical fact that the vast majoirty of converts to Christian faith are discipled in conservative Christian theology. Heresy, and liberal theology are not very prevelant over seas - comparatively. And the muslims have been around for over 1,000 years. We've kicked their buts before, and we will do it again.

You never answer my question about the growth of the church in the last century. Doesn't seem to fit in with your pessimism. All you talked about was Tv and the internet. My question was more about the mass communication of the Gospel and its global acceptance.

____________________________________________________________________________________

I't was easy to get off on a rabbit trail about our personal outlooks on the church today. However, There were some questions you never answered. For exapmle:

. Tell my why the binding of satan that Jesus refers to is a binding only over believers. Is there any textual evidence for that belief?

Also, I find it ineteresting that I replied, as always, to each pat of your post. However, you completely skip over vital parts of my argument and choose to ignore them.


____________________________________________________________________________________


Please explain how premillennialism coheres with a gradual growing kingdom. (If you believe that 'every knee will bow' at the second coming, and every eye will see Him. How can you believe in a gradual growth of the kingdom? The premillennial believe is that when Christ comes he destorys his enemies in a flash and everone bows down and worships hims. Where is the growth?)

____________________________________________________________________________________



Luke 18:7-8, And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (KJV)

Paul also said:

2 Tim 3:13, But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. (KJV)


First let me say that 2 timothy 3:13 was being fullfilled when Paul wrote it. Look at the context, and avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected as regards the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, as also that of those two came to be...

These are the men that 'grow worse and worse'. If you would read the context you would see that through out the New Testament there are texts that speak of the 'last days' happening during the time of the writers. These were the last days of the Jewish age. Israel was judged by God for breaking the covenant and rejecting the Christ.

As far as that text in Luke 18 goes, I believe that Christ is talking about his coming in judgment to judge Israel. Remember that the faith of many Christians was growing weak. (hebrews 10) And the Galations were being tempted to convert to a kind of Judaism by going back under Old testament cerimonial laws like circumcision. The Jews also had, for the most part, rejected Christ. BOth the jews and romans were killing Christians all over the place. Certainly, when Christ came in the clouds to judge Israel -- when the starts fell from heaven, and the sun turned black and the moon turned blood red -- there was little faith left in the land. (literally: land) However, after the judgment the Christian church grew like wildfire and today the largest faith in the world is the Christian faith. (granted the church ins't perfect)
Thats my take on that scripture.

In case you havn't read the context of Luke 18-21 lets take a look.

Luke 18:2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’
4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care about men, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually wear me out with her coming!’”
6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Why do you suppose that Christ was talking about this. And what does a widow have to do with it? And why say that God would deal out justice quickly?

It's easy to take a scripture out of context. And its easy to read the scripture without studying the background material. The reason Christ brings up this Widow, is because through out the Old testament God was always calling out Israel for not looking after the widow and the orphan. As a matter of fact, several judgment/punishment passages in the Old Testament have to do with God being angry with Israel for not looking after the widow and the orphan. Now, in the new testament Christ draws upon this language to call out Israel for having forgotten the 'true religion' (to take care of widows and orphans). Christ is speaking here of the judgment that is going to come upon the apostate Israelites, quickly. God will vindicate the righteouss in Israel. (The remnant).

Notice that the pre-context speaks of the coming kingdom and judgment -- the non-literal narture of the kingdom -- and the non-literal coming of Christ.

luke 17:20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 Men will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

Firstly, notice the nature of the kingdom. Not literal. Thats the essense of what Christ is saying.

Second, notice the Jesus' point is that the disciples would NOT see Him. NOT that they WOULD see him coming. Christ's point is that they would NOT see Him. Instead Christ describes His day as a day of lightning. Now why would he say lightning? Well, if we let scripture interpret scripture it would be rather simple to answer this question. Christ was using Old Testament language. The kind of poetic language used in the psalms and prophets to speak of major events in history. This kind of langauge sounds very physical but is not to be taken literally. For example:


Ps 97:2 Clouds and thick darkness surround Him;
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
3 Fire goes before Him,
And burns up His adversaries round about.
4 His lightnings lit up the world;
The earth saw and trembled.

Psalm 144:5 Part your heavens, O LORD, and come down;
touch the mountains, so that they smoke.
6 Send forth lightning and scatter the enemies;
shoot your arrows and rout them.
7 Reach down your hand from on high;
deliver me and rescue me


This kind of cataclysmic language is used all over the place. This is the kind of language that Christ is using. As a matter of fact the NASB and NKJV have these quotes from Christ in BLOCK print or Italics because they are straight from passages in the Old Testament. So Christ's coming here is not a literal coming. Its just like the many comings of God in the O.T. As I have surely mentioned before there are over 25 scriptures that speak of God "Coming" down to earth in the Old Testament. Usually they are used to speak of a judgment/punishment of some kind. Usually, these judgments are carried out by varius nations. The same way Rome destoryed and punished Jerusalem. If you read Josephus you will find that there were miraculous signs during the time of the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. And the Jews felt that it was a judgment from God. Some of them actually believed that their judgment had something to do with Christ. There was a cloud over the temple and angels were seen above the temple and leaving the temple and many of the people saw and heard this. And some wrote about it, including josephus. Read the history. Its all right there.


We'll I could go on and on. But its really useless. I don't think that you have a desire to be honestly streched in your thinking.

I used to be a dispensationsalist too. I know that when you are so indoctrinated in it you begin to twist scriptures in order to make it work. Instead of leting scripture interpret scripture and realize that Christ is using Old Testament poetic language during his "apocolyptic" messages, dispensationalists would rather leave the O.T. on the shelf and interpret by using the newspaper.


Adam

[John Reece]

Today @ 03:28 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=168423#post168423)
Hitch:


If this referes to the Second Advent:


Matt 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(KJV)

Why doesnt this:

Matt 26:63-64
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(KJV)

Jesus quotes the same passage.

H

Hitch,

The English Standard Version is more accurate than other versions in rendering the sense of the Greek text of Matthew 26:64, which is more supportive of your point than the KJV.

Matthew 26

64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on (ap arti = “from now”) you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament indicates, in the margin of Matthew 26:64, that Jesus was quoting Daniel 7:13 and alluding to Psalm 110, indicating that what was happening circa AD 30 was about to precipitate the fulfillment of both OT scriptures nearly 2000 years ago.

Blessings,

John

[Dee Dee Warren]

08-04-2003 @ 05:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=166996#post166996)
RevSteve45:

John Reece,

You said,



Not really. It is obvious they mean nothing even REMOTELY similiar to what Peterists claim they mean.

Neither, for that matter, does &quot;generation&quot; in Matt. 24, which Peter uses to mean &quot;the Church.&quot;

In His Service,
Steve

You aren't serious are you? You do realize that these passages use two completely different GREEK words don't you? Are you suggesting the Church will ever pass away?

[RevSteve45]

Dee Dee,

Of COURSE I am suggesting that the Church will pass away! You do not HONESTLY think there will be an entity known as the "Church" AFTER the Second Coming of Jesus, in the Eternal Kingdom? What need will there be for the Church? ALL will be believers, after all!

I do not see the Church in the New Heavens & New Earth, only saints. But no Church.

In His Service,
Steve

[TedO]

:doh:

Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might *sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came *to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the *names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


Could it be any more clear? As for the church only being for this time only, consider this:

Eph 3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

The church has ALWAYS been the focus.

[RevSteve45]

TedO,

Do you see ANY mention of the Church in Bible prophecy at ALL, after Rev. 1-3? I do not. I see the "Bride, the Lamb's wife," however, John it is told that it is the CITY of the New Jerusalem.

I agree that God has an eternal purpose that He accomplishes THROUGH the Church, and about the names of the apostles being written on the foundations of the NJ. However, that does not mean the Church ITSELF is eternal, just the saints FROM the Church.

In His Service,
Steve

[TedO]

Show me how the saints are in any way distinct from the church...

The church is the people, the people are the church...

:shrug:

[RevSteve45]

TedO,

Yes, in THIS Dispensation, the saints are the Church. But in earlier Dispensations, and in future Dispensations, there IS no Church.

The Church is simply God's way of promulgating the Gospel, and revealing His will, and building up His saints, during the Dispensation of Grace. But when the purpose of the Church is served, there will simply be saints, from ALL Dispensations.

When I say, "the Church will pass away," I mean the Church as an ORGANIZATION. All of the MEMBERS of the Church, wil , of course, live forever.

In His Service,
Steve

[John Reece]

Today @ 03:24 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=169523#post169523)
RevSteve45:

TedO,

Yes, in THIS Dispensation, the saints are the Church. But in earlier Dispensations, and in future Dispensations, there IS no Church.

The Church is simply God's way of promulgating the Gospel, and revealing His will, and building up His saints, during the Dispensation of Grace. But when the purpose of the Church is served, there will simply be saints, from ALL Dispensations.

When I say, &quot;the Church will pass away,&quot; I mean the Church as an ORGANIZATION. All of the MEMBERS of the Church, wil , of course, live forever.

In His Service,
Steve

The Church is not an organization. The Church is the Body of Christ. The Church cannot pass away unless Christ passes away.

Ephesians 3

20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

[RevSteve45]

John Reece,

The word Church means "an assembly." It is an assembly of those who have been called out.

An assembly is a group, or organization.

In His Service,
Steve

[TedO]

:argh:

:read: Ephesians

[RevSteve45]

ASSEMBLY

ekklesia 1577 from ek, "out of," and klesis, "a calling" (kaleo, "to call"), was used among the Greeks of a body of citizens "gathered" to discuss the affairs of state, Acts 19:39. In the Sept. it is used to designate the "gathering" of Israel, summoned for any definite purpose, or a "gathering" regarded as representative of the whole nation. In Acts 7:38 it is used of Israel; in 19:32,41, of a riotous mob. It has two applications to companies of Christians, (a) to the whole company of the redeemed throughout the present era, the company of which Christ said, "I will build My Church," Matt. 16:18, and which is further described as "the Church which is His Body," Eph. 1:22; 5:23, (b) in the singular number (e. g., Matt. 18:17, RV marg., "congregation"), to a company consisting of professed believers, e. g., Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:13; 1 Thes. 1:1; 2 Thes. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:5>, and in the plural, with reference to churches in a district.

There is an apparent exception in the RV of Acts 9:31, where, while the KJV has "churches," the singular seems to point to a district; but the reference is clearly to the church as it was in Jerusalem, from which it had just been scattered, 8:1. Again, in Rom. 16:23, that Gaius was the host of "the whole church," simply suggests that the "assembly" in Corinth had been accustomed to meet in his house, where also Paul was entertained.

(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)

In His Service,
Steve

[bonehead]

Dare I say that timing in prophetical writings is sometimes hard

to pin down, but there seems to be past, current, and future

events in the book of Revelation even after chapter 3. May I point

out how verses 5:1 - 5: 5 mesh with Isaiah 29. Jesus is the one

who blew the Old Testament wide open by revealing many hard

to understand passages, and parable-like stories. He it is that

ties the whole thing together. So I conclude this passage is past,

and was past at John`s time. However chapter 12 started it

fulfillment at the birth of Christ, and we are still witnessing its

fulfillment even today. Satan used Herod to try to destory Christ

in his childhood, (seeking to devour the child as soon as it was

born) and the woman (the Jews) fled to the wilderness (ad70) to

a place prepared for her by God. Satan sent a flood (anti-

semitism) to try to do away with her. When he saw this didn`t

work he was enraged and went to make war with her children

(christians). Even in todays news we read of a group of folks who

lash out at christians in retaliation because they are not allowed

to destory the Jews. Rev. 12 is still happening before our eyes!

I think it would be very hard to say this book has already been

fulfilled. Take 11:9 for instance, this cannot happen without

modern communication, why as early as 1812 the battle of New

Orleans was fought after the war was over because word

traveled so slow! I for one don`t believe these prophesies have

to happen in any certain order, But the key to their

understanding is a good grasp of the Old Testament.

[Jacob]

Today @ 08:57 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=169498#post169498)
TedO:

Show me how the saints are in any way distinct from the church...

The church is the people, the people are the church...

:shrug:


But the question is, which people?

Jacob

[TedO]

From Ted Noel, "I Want To Be Left Behind" http://www.bibleonly.org/press/Left/ch2.pdf

The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek done in the third or second century BC. It was well known to Jesus and the apostles and is the source of most of the quotations of Old Testament scripture found in the New Testament. One particular word used in the Septuagint is of particular interest: ekklesia. Ekklesia is the Greek word commonly translated “church” in the New Testament. If the Futurist idea that the church was a mystery undisclosed in the Old Testament is correct, we should expect not to see this word in the Septuagint. Instead, it appears forty-one times. In at least thirty-eight of those instances, ekklesia is used in the context of a religious assembly.

The translators of the Septuagint were Jewish scholars steeped in Jewish traditions. It is unlikely that they were unaware of the consequences of their word choices. They used a term describing the “called out” nature of Israel, and this would become the chosen word for the religious assemblies of the apostolic era. This word is first used in the New Testament era by Christ, who, in Matthew 16:18, said the “gates of hell” would not prevail against his ekklesia. Thus, our Savior identifies the New Testament body of believers as being identical to the Old Testament body of believers. This is confirmed in Stephen’s covenant lawsuit, when he describes Israel in the wilderness as the “church” (ekklesia, Acts 7:38, KJV).

In the New Testament, when a single word is used to describe the body of believers, it is usually ekklesia, after our Lord’s statement in Matthew. Thus, when the two testaments are allowed to speak together, we find a continuity of language. Israel, from its earliest days, had all the characteristics of the church. And the New Testament writers, acting as inspired commentators on the Old Testament, adopted the Septuagint description of the believers called Israel to identify believers in Christ. They saw no difference between the two groups.

The ekklesia is fundamental to God's eternal purpose. There is no distinction between the organization and the people. The people make up the body, which is His body. How can it cease to exist?

Ephesians 3:20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

[Jacob]

Today @ 09:47 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=169556#post169556)
RevSteve45:

John Reece,

The word Church means &quot;an assembly.&quot; It is an assembly of those who have been called out.

An assembly is a group, or organization.

In His Service,
Steve

RevSteve,

I've got to disgree with you. Yeah, the word "church" means "an assembly" in it's generic usage. But the NT writers wrap it with meaning. The central picture of the church in the NT is that it is the body of Christ, composed of all believers. It does not refer to an organization. More properly, it refers to an organism.

Jacob

[RevSteve45]

Jacob,

You said,


I've got to disgree with you. Yeah, the word "church" means "an assembly" in it's generic usage. But the NT writers wrap it with meaning. The central picture of the church in the NT is that it is the body of Christ, composed of all believers. It does not refer to an organization. More properly, it refers to an organism.

Jacob, then perhaps it would be more correct to say this: All members of the Church, the Body of Christ, will be in the future Kingdom of God. However, they will not at that time be CALLED the Church, but simply "saints." The need for an "assembly" of believers will be over with.

In His Service,
Steve

[John Reece]

Today @ 03:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=169556#post169556)
RevSteve45:

John Reece,

The word Church means &quot;an assembly.&quot; It is an assembly of those who have been called out.

An assembly is a group, or organization.

In His Service,
Steve

Steve,

You are indulging in a word study fallacy. I recommend you read D. A. Carson’s Exegetical Fallacies (Baker, 1996).

I was not referring to the word “Church”, especially not “Church” as defined by the root fallacy, about which Carson wrote:

One of the most enduring of errors, the root fallacy presupposes that every word actually has a meaning bound up with its shape or its components. In this view, the meaning is determined by etymology: that is, by the root or roots of a word.

What I wrote, to which you responded with the root fallacy, was not referring to the word “Church” as defined by etymology. What I wrote was referring to the reality of what Paul wrote about in Ephesians. Paul did not write about “an assembly” that is a temporary phenomenon to be terminated at the beginning of the next “dispensation” as imagined by Dispensationalists.

Ephesians 3

20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

How can there be . . glory in the church . . . forever and ever if the church is destined to "pass away"?

Blessings,

John

[RevSteve45]

John Reece,

You said,


Ephesians 3

20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (ESV)

How can there be . . glory in the church . . . forever and ever if the church is destined to "pass away"?

John, you are ASSUMING that the words here, "forever and ever" apply to the Church. It is the praise, the glorifying of Christ Jesus in the Church, and in Christ Jesus, which will continue forever and ever. That will be the case whether the Church exists or not. Presently Christ Jesus is glorified in the Church. In future generations, He will be glorified by ALL believers, even those who had faith in God thousands of years before the Church ever existed.

The Church is ONE body of believers, the believers who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. However, BEFORE that, the Jews were saved by faith in God, shown by keeping the Law. Before THAT, Abraham, Isaac & Jacob were saved by believing the promises of God. None of them knew about the Church.

In His Servcice,
Steve

[TedO]

The church pre-existed the New Testament... :bonk:

Acts 7:37 "This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel,* 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him* you shall hear.'
38 "This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles* to give to us, 39 whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt,
congregation = ekklesia

Jesus was with his church at Sinai...

Please read my previous post quoting Ted Noel and tell me how they did not know about the church when that is what they were called, ekklesia?

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=169685#post169685)
RevSteve45:

. . . . the glorifying of Christ Jesus in the Church, and in Christ Jesus, which will continue forever and ever. That will be the case whether the Church exists or not. Presently Christ Jesus is glorified in the Church. In future generations, He will be glorified by ALL believers, even those who had faith in God thousands of years before the Church ever existed.

Steve

Even your own words affirm what you deny.

Blessings,

John

[TedO]

Has everyone read the story of Breyer Rabbit and the Tar Baby?

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=169734#post169734)
TedO:

Has everyone read the story of Breyer Rabbit and the Tar Baby?

:thumb: :cheers:

[RevSteve45]

TedO,

You said,


Acts 7:37-38, This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
(KJV)

congregation = ekklesia

Jesus was with his church at Sinai...

Please read my previous post quoting Ted Noel and tell me how they did not know about the church when that is what they were called, ekklesia?

No, Ted, A church existed in the OT. however, it is NOT the same Church that is in the NEW Testament. The members of the Church in the NEW Testament are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. That was unknown in OT times.

In His Service,
Steve

[Hitch]

Yesterday @ 05:09 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=168543#post168543)
RevSteve45:

Hitch,

They BOTH refer to the Second Coming. The real question is, &quot;Who was Jesus referring to when He said, &quot;YE shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.&quot;&quot;??

I think He was simply referring to unbelievers in general, not the High Priest &amp; Sanhedrin in particular.

In His Service,
Steve LOL Solly wont like this ,, , Steve when you claim to be a literalist you're telling a lie. You're a literalist like Fallwell is a jew.

Has it ever occurred to you that Jesus was seen 'At the Right Hand of Power' and that this fact is recorded in Scripture?


Nevermind

[RevSteve45]

Hitch,

You said,


LOL Solly wont like this ,, , Steve when you claim to be a literalist you're telling a lie. You're a literalist like Fallwell is a jew.

Still beating up those strawmen, I see Hitch! I never CLAIMED to be a literalist in ALL parts of Scripture! I believe Revelation 1-3, and 20-22 are literal, as well as Matthew 24 & the parallel passages. The Sanhedrin were unbelievers. Unbelievers shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven. That is allowed, when the "ye" is unspecified.


Has it ever occurred to you that Jesus was seen 'At the Right Hand of Power' and that this fact is recorded in Scripture?

Yes, He was seen at the right hand of power by Stephen when he was about to die. Unfortunately for your doctrine, He was NOT seen coming in the clouds of Heaven! But that is ok, I know you are SELECTIVE about which prophecies have been "fulfilled," aren't you?

Sorry, charlie! Better luck next time!

In His Service,
Steve

[adam.naranjo]

Steve,

Have you ever read that Israel is called the Church in the wilderness? And "I will call those who were not my people, my people". There is only ONE people of God. Israel, the Church in the Old Testament is the same as the Church in the new -- exept under the New Covenant.
So based on MY presuppositions (which are different than yours) God's covenant people are all of those who are in Christ today. And God's covenant people are an eternal people for His possession.
It's important to understand that the debate here is over presuppositions about the nature of Israel and the Church.


I'll just keep it there and not go on. I could list dozens of scriptures to show my point (that gentiles have now come in to covenant with God along with faithfull Israel) but they would probably be completely ignord. Maybe I will anyway.


Adam

[RevSteve45]

Adam,

I would agree with you that Gentiles in the New Testament, have entered into the blessings of the covenant God made with faithful Israel. They were grafted into a the Covenant "tree" bthat had been largely broken off because of unbelief.

However, Paul says that the Church is the Body Of Christ. It is entered into through faith in Jesus Christ, who WAS NOT revealed to the OT saints. All they knew was the Covenant & Laws that God had given THEM, and the promise of a Messiah yet to come. Their faith was in the PROMISE. our faith is in the REALITY of Christ Jesus.

We NT saints welcome all of the OT saints into Heaven & the Kingdom of God. Nevertheless, they have known what we have known. They have not seen what we have seen. They have not known Christ Jesus, but only the shadow of His promise. Yes, the OT saints were "A" Church, but not THE Church which is in the NT, the Body of Christ.

In His Service,
Steve

[adam.naranjo]

Steve,

I'm writing somthing off site about DF vs Postmillennial Covenantal theology. So I think I may post something i'm writing on the church as a response to you.


adam

[Dee Dee Warren]

Yesterday @ 10:24 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=173516#post173516)
adam.naranjo:

Steve,

Have you ever read that Israel is called the Church in the wilderness?

Adam, have you ever read God Crucified? If not, it is thin, get it and read it. While it is dealing with Christology, and the author is not preterist, postmill, when you read how he draws out Exodus imagery it will be like the tumblers in the lock settling in. It gave me goosebumps on how clearing this is all brought out. The 1st century church is the church in the 40 year wilderness exodus out of "Egypt" - apostate Judaism into the promised land of the fulness of the New Covenant... and just as God did not clear the Promised land for Israel, they had to subdue and conquer and drive out her enemies, so does the Church.

[adam.naranjo]

I've heard of it but have not read it.

I'll get it soon! Thanks.

N.T. Wright deals with some of that in His books.
And I'm reading a book by a postmill preterist named Peter Leightart right now. Its called, "A house for my name". It's great because he shows the themes of all of Scripture and there fulfillment in Christ and the Church.


Thanks,
Adam

[asaph]

Adam.naranjo,
I have some questions for you. You quoted Jesus-"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power".
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Do you believe this refers to AD70 as the fulfilment of the kingdom of God coming with power?
If so, How many of those 12 disciples standing there lived to see AD70?

Could it be that the most logical time was 6 to 8 days later on the mount of transfiguration. After all listen to Peter years later but prior to AD70:

2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Notice Peter says in v16 that he was a witness of Jesus' majesty which means His power and coming experienced at the mount.

According to history all the disciples died before AD70 except John. So the word "some" standing here does not make sense unless it refers to Peter James and John on the Mount.

asaph

[Dee Dee Warren]

I never heard of that book Adam.... I will have to order it.



**** is the name spelled right? I cannot find it on Amazon, used or new.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Found it!!!

[Hitch]

According to history all the disciples died before AD70 except John. So the word "some" standing here does not make sense unless it refers to Peter James and John on the Mount.

asaph


Hmmmm

That just doest fit in with the proclamation. Is it really logical and in character for our Lord to make such a profound pronouncment: Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power". In reference to an event about a week in the future? I dont think so Tim...

Actually its Kieth, a friend from the same forum joelkaki and I have posted at. Kieth is also the proud (justifiably so) father of a WEST POINT Cadet.


Glad you stopped in K

H

[adam.naranjo]

Asaph

1. First of all, not what hitch said.


2 Secondly, reread the passage:

“The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.” 23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 “For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. 25 “For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself? 26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 “But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”

It appears to me that Christ is speaking of some kind of coming.


3. Notice that matt says: "there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

I think it kind of odd if Christ was speaking of his "coming" in the transfiguration. What kind of "coming" was that.


4. Notice also: 27 “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. 28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Does the transfiguration have anything to do with a judgment/punishment? (ps. there are many judgments through out scripture where God recompenses/punishes men for there deeds)


5. Also take into account that during this time in Christ's ministry he had many disciples. Shortly after the transfiguration Christ sent out 70 disciples. During this time in his ministry, he is expected to have many disciples. So when you read 'disciples' don't assume that its speaking of the 'twelve' disciples. At times there were hundreds following Christ. So, the "some standing here" reference was almost certainly directed to a large groupd of disciples. (shortly after feeding the five thousand Christ probably had a large group following Him)


Take care,
Adam

[Hitch]

Ahem,,that is what Hitch said

[asaph]

Yesterday @ 03:09 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=189448#post189448)
Hitch:

According to history all the disciples died before AD70 except John. So the word &quot;some&quot; standing here does not make sense unless it refers to Peter James and John on the Mount.

asaph


Hmmmm

That just doest fit in with the proclamation. Is it really logical and in character for our Lord to make such a profound pronouncment: Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power&quot;. In reference to an event about a week in the future? I dont think so Tim...

Actually its Kieth, a friend from the same forum joelkaki and I have posted at. Kieth is also the proud (justifiably so) father of a WEST POINT Cadet.


Glad you stopped in K

H
Thanks for the welcome O buddy. I know I can be a little dense, but why does not a week later fit the proclamation? The fact that no one died in the interum of one week still makes sense of the prediction because if the futurist's view holds true then they all tasted death, years later, and to this day are yet waiting for the kingdom to come in power. Only Pete, Jim, and Johnny witnessed the K of G coming in power at the mount. Now if AD 70 holds true for the kingdom coming in power then they "ALL" tasted death before that date, except for Johnny boy who would not qualify as "some" but only "one". If we eliminate those two possibilities then what is left but pentecost in Acts 2. But that can't be it, cause no one standing there tasted death before then. So, as I see it, the futurist view makes the most sense out of the proclamation.

I like this forum! Thanks for the invite, Hitch.

asaph

[Ted]

Asaph,

I believe that a slight correction should be made to your perceptive comment about Pentecost.

First, it IS a good case for the time the kingdom came in power. Jesus said that they would receive power (Acts 1:8). This was the kingdom power at Pentecost.

Second, Judas (cf. Mark 8:33) died before Pentecost, so the "some will not die" line (Mark 9:1) makes sense.

I think your insight works better than the Mount of Transfiguration since it fits that language, and the "kingdom" can refer either to the eternal kingdom, or the manifestations of the kingdom in the present.

[adam.naranjo]

Asaph

You obviously did not read my post. I answered each of those points that you bring up again. If you can't read responding quotes don't bother repeating yourself. It's a waist of all our time. To say that the transfiguration is the fulfillment is rediculous. Read my post.

Adam

[asaph]

08-19-2003 @ 05:13 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=189517#post189517)
adam.naranjo:

Asaph

1. First of all, not what hitch said.


2 Secondly, reread the passage:

“The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.” 23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 “For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. 25 “For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself? 26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 “But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”

It appears to me that Christ is speaking of some kind of coming.


3. Notice that matt says: &quot;there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

I think it kind of odd if Christ was speaking of his &quot;coming&quot; in the transfiguration. What kind of &quot;coming&quot; was that.

[--------I think that Peter answered that in his second letter. 2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.---------]
asaph

4. Notice also: 27 “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. 28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Does the transfiguration have anything to do with a judgment/punishment? (ps. there are many judgments through out scripture where God recompenses/punishes men for there deeds)

[--------There is a lot of other things associated with Christ's coming that were excluded on the mount but the essence of the coming (glorious appearance) was what was important.--------]
asaph

5. Also take into account that during this time in Christ's ministry he had many disciples. Shortly after the transfiguration Christ sent out 70 disciples. During this time in his ministry, he is expected to have many disciples. So when you read 'disciples' don't assume that its speaking of the 'twelve' disciples. At times there were hundreds following Christ. So, the &quot;some standing here&quot; reference was almost certainly directed to a large groupd of disciples. (shortly after feeding the five thousand Christ probably had a large group following Him)

[--------Whom Jesus dismissed at the end of chapter 15. Highly unlikely that He was speaking to any other but the 12.--------]
asaph


Take care,
Adam

[Just The Facts]

I have not read all the post here but going by the tittle I would say this.

DO NOT look for hidden meanings where you have to push the events it to a spiritual interpretation. Nor should you look to see this as all yet to happen for both understandings are lacking the Truth of the Revelor himself.

The Book is about events to take place in Asia Minor sometime in the future.

The book of revelations is in many ways Jesus answer and warning about the Doctrines of BAAL slipping into the Church. At first through Gnostic beliefs then latter through the adoption of Christianity by so many un healed Romans in the early fourth century.

Revelation is just that a revelation about events here on Earth it is about Satan and his earthly Kingdoms

I posted the following in the Thread about modern Israel because someone was asking about Matt 24:



I have a real problem with this supposed 2,000 year gap where God tells us nothing of Satan's Earthly kingdoms.

Amos:3:7: Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I see Matthew 24: as the key to understanding Revelation 6: and the Four Horsemen. The key to understanding all of Prophecy.

In Revelation Jesus Reveals the Future to John about Satan and his Earthly Kingdoms Understanding Matthew 24: in its true light is essential to understanding Revelation.

Look at it this Way Jesus is The Revealor He left us Revelation as a road map for all who wanted to follow to the Kingdom. He made the map that is the Book of Revelation.

Now if you get a map do you go to Tom Dick Or Harry and ask what the symbols on the map mean .....well you could but I bet you get lost.

Same as Revelation Jesus is the only one who can tell you what these symbols mean .... well you could listen to someone else's explanation ...but I bet you get lost.

The Key to this is Matthew 24: In Matthew 24: Jesus tells us the Future in very plain language all that we need to do is tie the two together and we have the Key to the Map and it all makes sense.

Here is the truth of this matter.

Revelation

The most important thing to understand is that it is Jesus who is revealing this information about the future.

Rev 5:3 But no one in Heaven or on Earth or beneath the Earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Rev 5:5 Do not weep the lion of the tribe of Judea the root of David has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.

Rev:5:6Then I saw a Lamb that looked as if it had been slain standing in the centre of the throne.

Rev:6:1 I watched as the Lamb open the first of the seven seals.

Do not believe the many varied Human Interpretations of Revelation it is Jesus alone who can explain the symbols of Revelation and the events of the future.

Also in these verses we have the explanation of our first symbol, the Lamb and what it represents. It is Jesus.

Does Jesus tell us of the events of the future else where in scripture?

Yes he does in Matthew 24:

1: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2: And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age.

While his Disciples thought the destruction of the Temple would be the end of the world we know that was not the case. So in fact his disciples have asked him two separate questions.

1. When would the destruction of the Temple be?
2. What will be the signs of your coming?

Jesus answers the first question.

4And Jesus answered them, "Take heed that no one leads you astray.5For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place,but the end is not yet.

Here we have a clear end to the first question and Jesus tells them that the destruction of the temple would come before the end of the age.

Jesus now answers the next question Second question, What will be the signs of your coming?

7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: 8all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. 9"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold.13But he who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

How does this compare with the future Jesus reveals in Revelation? Let’s compare and see

Rev 6:1: And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2: And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Jesus is depicted as coming on a white horse in Rev 19:11 however he has many crowns not one and he has a sword that comes out of his mouth not a bow in his hand. What does this Symbol mean. Is it the Catholic Church as the Catholics claim symbolising Righteousness. Or is it one of the many other fancy Human explanation of this symbol. Let us not forget it is Jesus alone who reveals, Jesus alone who knows the future.

In Matthew 24 Jesus says the first thing that will take place after his death is False Christianity followed by the destruction of the Temple.

Matt 24:-4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So the white horse Jesus tells us represents False Christianity.

Rev 6:-3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4: And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

This Horse is Red and takes peace from the Earth does this agree with what Jesus said would happen next.

Matt 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

I would have to say we have a match let’s continue.

Rev 6:-5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6: And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a days wages, and three measures of barley for a days wages; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.7: And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8: And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

These two horses seem to be quite obvious in there meaning. It is agreed by most Bible scholars to represent famine and death due to rising prices and lack of availability of food most likely brought on by the raging wars of Nation against Nation.. It should also be noted that these wars and famine and disease only affect a fourth of the world, not the whole world.

Does this agree with what Jesus says comes next in Matt 24:

7 and there shall be famines, and pestilence, and earthquakes, in divers places.8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Once again we seem to have a match.

Who are these Nations and Kingdoms that are at war?

Since we know from the division of Jesus' answer to the disciples, that this is after the fall of Judea in 70AD. We know that one of these Nations or Kingdoms is Rome. These verses speak of the disintegration and fall of the Roman Empire and the ensuing natural disasters, famine and disease that would bring death and the Dark ages.

Let’s continue on in Revelation

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

What does Jesus say happens next in Matt24:

Matt 24:9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and you shall be hated in all nations because of me.

Once again we have a match

Here Jesus moves through the main events that will lead to his return many hundreds of years in the future. Revelation clearly shows in these passages that this is the Fall of Rome, as the Saints killed by the Pagans are told to wait until more that speak their same testimony, are to be killed.

Now go back to Revelation 6:9 where Jesus describes the saints and their testimony in more detail. Here is depicted the souls of all who have been killed because of the word of God and their testimony they had maintained. What is the word of God? Is it the Old Testament, is it the New Testament? Who are these souls that are given white robes to wear? And who martyred them? And when? And what was their testimony?

Lets examine what Jesus tells us else where in Revelation to find the explanation of these symbols.

First notice that the saints are told that there are others who were yet to be killed for the word of God and their testimony, as they had been. We find these others in Revelation 7:

9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindred, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Here comes Jesus' explanation Rev7:13

13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these, which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14: And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple

Two things are clear here, first that this is taking place after the First Resurrection because unlike the first group of souls killed for the word of God and their testimony under the alter in Rev6:9, these souls are before the throne of God, in the Kingdom of God, they have been killed in the Great Tribulation and have been risen for the wedding feast. The other thing that is clear is that these people are from every Tribe, Nation, and Tongue, they are not just from the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

This persecution is described in Rev12

17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It continues in Rev 13:

7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all Tribes, and nations and tongues,. 8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9: If any man have an ear, let him hear.10:If anyone is to go into captivity into captivity he shall go: If anyone is to be killed with the sword with the sword he must be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Here we are told something else about these people. They are the Saints and they will be killed.

Rev 14 tells us more about these people

12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints: those that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

We are also told that their Testimony is the Testimony of Jesus Christ. We are told that the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy in Rev 19:

10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, do not do it: I am but a fellows servant, with your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Now we know what their testimony was, it is was prophecy, this provides us with a keen insight into what these people of the great tribulation are killed for it is for their understanding of prophecy and for keeping the Ten Commandments (ie: the word of God)
Once again Jesus has explained in full his own symbols. Next Jesus gives us a very important look inside mainstream Christianity at this time.

Matt24:10 At that time many shall turn away from the faith, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12: And because wickedness multiplies, the love of most shall go cold.

Jesus plainly tells us that at the time of the decay of Rome and the persecution by the Pagans, Christians will start to fight amongst themselves and will HATE one another and that the Love and Patience that Christians are known for will turn cold. Although Jesus does not give us a date we can look in history for the change in the church that Jesus describes. History shows that the 4th century CA 302 -395 these events begin to unfold in the Church. The various Latin and Greek factions using the Power of Imperial favour to instigate wars and persecutions against the others believers. The process started with Constantine 325AD and continued for almost 200yrs. With the two sides gaining and losing control over the doctrine taught with successive wars that left hundreds of thousands dead. The next verse again confirms that the saints lose their lives but gain eternal life.

13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

What is this Gospel that is preached to the whole world? Is it the Gospel that is taught today the gospel of Jesus’ life? It is hard to see Jesus saying "this Gospel" meaning the Gospel of his life and deeds. Jesus meant the Gospel that he Taught. What does scripture tell us about his Gospel?

Matthew4:17: From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Matthew 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of God is at hand.
Matthew 13:18: Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.19 When any one hears the message of the kingdom.

Matthew 13:24 : Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field

Matthew 13:31:Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

This continues on in verse 44, 45, 47, then again in chapter 20:1, 21:43, 22:2

It is quite clear that Jesus’ Gospel was that the Kingdom of God was at hand, and was unfolding just as the prophets had said it would.

Jesus then goes on to tells us that this is the time of the Great Persecution and to describe in more detail the events of the Great Persecution. He tells us that people will say that Jesus has returned and is in the inner rooms, that prophecy is finally fulfilled. Now we see why Peter tells us to pay attention to prophecy in 2Peter 2:19 and the importance of the Prophetic word. I can not stress how important understanding prophecy is. Most churches ignore prophecy as impossible to understand. It is only impossible to understand if you refuse to except the word as it is. Centuries of erroneous teachings have hardened their hearts to the obvious truth. Since we know what the testimony of the Saints is, Prophecy, and we know that the Saints, the ones in white robes, are killed in the Great Tribulation for their keeping the ten commandments and their testimony about prophecy.

Here Jesus tells us that those who are killed in the Great Tribulation are killed for refusing to believe the Anti-Christ is Jesus returned, they refuse to believe this false interpretation of prophetic scripture, which the Anti-Christ uses to convince the world that he is Christ returned. We are also told that unless God intervenes that all flesh on Earth would die, but for the Elect sake those days will be shortened. Here the saints are called the elect. Once again we know that this does not mean the Jewish people as many Christian scholars teach, because these people who come through the Great Tribulation, who wear the white robes are from every Tribe, Nation, and Tongue.

Matt 24:15 "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24: For there shall arise false Christ's, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25: Behold, I have told you before. 26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus goes on to talk about the signs after the great tribulation. Revelation 6 continues

12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This matches perfectly with what Jesus say in Matthew 24:

29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As we can plainly see from this text that Jesus has now returned to Earth to set up his Kingdom. He has finished answering the second question of the Apostles. We are also told that the generation that see the great persecution will not pass away before Jesus returns in his Glory.

This is what Jesus tells us the future will be, it is sure and can be trusted. Unlike the interpretations of men the word of God is sound. We do not need to guess what or who the four horsemen men are, Jesus tell us in very plain language all the events leading up to his return. Many churches teach that all these events happened in the first century AD, when Rome destroyed Jerusalem. I believe scripture has clearly shown us that this is not the truth. And that the words of God in Amos 3: are true. God has revealed all major events of history, into the future through Jesus' return, in advance as promised.

[RevSteve45]

Just so ya'll know....

I have seen absolutely NOTHING posted on this thread, that contradicts my assertion that the statement:

Rev 1:19, Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (KJV)

refers to 3 diffeent divisions of Revelation. The things John "hast seen" is clear enough: It is the vision of Christ which John saw.

"The things which are" is ALSO very clear: The conditions which then prevailed in the 7 churches in Asia which John wrote to, addressing SPECIFIC PROBLEMS in each church.

The phrase, "the things which shall be hereafter" is ALSO very clear! In fact, the phrase is REPEATED, when John is caught up to Heaven:

Rev 4:1, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (KJV)

Therefore, we KNOW that what is being referred to, are the various things John sees in Chapters 4-22.

Also, I do agree with Just The Facts, that the Tribulation will cover the area of the Middle East & the old Roman Empire. That is why most of the judgments in Revelation destroy anywhere from a fourth, to a third, of the earth & its resources.

In His Service,
Steve

[TedO]

I agree with you Steve - the events in chapters 4-22 were future to John.

[EdJones]

John is commanded to write concerning the things that he has seen, the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter to the seven churches which are in Asia.


The book of Revelation is one of the most feared, hated, and misunderstood books in the Bible.

Men resent being told the future by an authoritative source, and they deeply and bitterly resent any oracle about their future which is negative and prophecies which are evil concerning them (I Kings 22:13-28).

For this reason--innate hatred for negative prophecy which goes contrary to Darwin's religion--the book of Revelation has been the battleground of theological controversy since the day it was written.



.

[Dee Dee Warren]

08-27-2003 @ 01:14 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=195764#post195764)
TedO:

I agree with you Steve - the events in chapters 4-22 were future to John.

Not entirely. The birth of Christ is in, eerrr, 11 or 12. That was past.

[EdJones]

One of the primary reasons some have of making something in Revelation symbolic is to veil the identity of the characters of the book. After all, Satan isn't particularly interested in anyone knowing that he actually is a dragon (Rev. 12). The Roman Catholic Church certainly doesn't want to be identified in Rev. 17, and who wants to believe that there will be literal demonic creatures crawling out of the pit of hell (Rev. 9) to torment men. In short, if the book of Revelation is to be interpreted literally, mankind is headed for a heap of trouble!

[Just The Facts]

Here is the Lay out of Revelation

Chapters 1-5 Introduction.

Chapter 6: The Whole Course of Events Form right after Jesus Death to his Return

Chapter 7 to 11 The Great Tribulation ............well first Four Trumpets or bowls (They Are the Same) Are minor Tribulation The Last Three are the Three woes or the Great Tribulation.

It starts with the revealing of the Beast at the Fifth Trumpet..

you Know

Rv 17: 8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

HERE HE COMES AT THE FIFTH TRUMPET

1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2: And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit………………………………
11: And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.12: One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

The Angel of the Bottomless pit is the AC he is the Beast He is the Man of Sin he is The Son of Perdition, he is Azazel leader of the Fallen Angels.

Chapter 13: The Take over of Christianity by Rome and the Final apostasy of the AC.

Chapters 14-16 The Great Tribulation these Are the Seven Bowls Which ARE THE SEVN TRUMPETS. Just seen from a different perspective.

Chapter 17: The Foretelling of the Power structure of The False Bride of Christ Which is the Teachings of the Fallen Angels, The Healed beast, the Two Horned Lamb, The Holy Roman Empire.

Chapter 18 and 19: punishment of the Whore and the Destruction of ALL THE ARMIES OF THE WORLD.

Chapter 20: The 1,000 years and Gog and Magog.

Chapter 21 Description of Holy Jerusalem which comes at the Beginning of the 1,000 Years not the end.

Chapter 22 Closing

[kofh2u]

07-30-2003 @ 03:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=162720#post162720)
RevSteve45:

Greetings To All In the Name of Jesus!

Much has been written about the Millenium, the New Heavens &amp; New Earth, whether the things in Revelation are literal or allegorical. Whether they have taken place, or whether they have not.

I believe the key to a proper understanding of Revelation can be found in the following verse. The Glorified Christ told John to:

Rev 1:19, Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (KJV)

I believe this gives us a very CLEAR threefold division of Revelation. The things which John had seen (up to that point)
was the vision of the Glorified Christ. The things which &quot;are&quot; at the time the book was being written, was the conditions in the 7 churches in Asia, which John was writing individual messages for each church.

Then, there are &quot;the things which shall be &quot;hereafter,&quot; i.e., AFTER the first two things. In other words, things which will take place AFTER John had seen his vision of the glorified Christ, and AFTER the age in which the 7 churches in Asia were in, which was the Church Age.

This is reinforced by the fact that the very SAME word, &quot;hereafter&quot; (Greek word meta tauta), is used in Rev. 4:1:

Rev 4:1, After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER. (KJV)

Therefore, the first chaspter of Revelation, &quot;the things which thou hast seen&quot; refers to the actual vision of Christ that John saw.

The &quot;things which are,&quot; are in fact the church age, characterized by the letters to the 7 churches in Asia. Btw, this is true, even if you believe that each church in Asia represents a different period of church history.

Finally, the &quot;things which shall be hereafter,&quot; is Revelation 4:2-22:21, the things which are about to take place AFTER the Church Age.

This is further emphasized by the fact that John was invited in Rev. 4:1 to &quot;come up hither&quot; by a voice that was &quot;as of a trumpet,&quot; immediately BEFORE the &quot;things which shall be hereafter&quot; began to be shown to him. I believe this is a picture of the Rapture, where believers are ALSO &quot;caught up&quot; to Heaven by a voice that is like a trumpet.

In His Service,
Steve


Hello, I too am very reflective on Revelation.

I agree that the triad which divides the book into separate areas is clear.

I would point out, especiallysince many others have guessed that the 7 "church letters" are to the seven actual churches of John's time, some people even saying that this IS to meaning, ...

....that John was actually writing to those seven churches, and they argue,... applying the idea to the seven stages of maturation of Christianity is in error,...
... to those people in particular, and for your own information specifically, I point out that THE CHUCH OF LAOCIDEA did not exist in 99AD, when John published the Book of Revelation! That city had been destroyed by a quake/and or fire in 66AD.

Check it out.

John HAD to be referring to us, the christians of these end times, ...us,...we who would see the rapture of 144,000 Jews returning to the Promised Land. Remember, the generation that sees this, will not pass until all is fulfilled...right? church

[kofh2u]

07-31-2003 @ 03:04 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=163211#post163211)
Hitch:

Finally, the &quot;things which shall be hereafter,&quot; is Revelation 4:2-22:21, the things which are about to take place AFTER the Church Age.

Odd no one mentions the 'church age' here in the text. You seem to emply a curiously variable standard Steve. But thats another matter.

Hereafter, means any thing future, as in the past, the present, and so on, it is a reference to the sequence of a given set of events, so the interjection of thousands of years of 'church age' history is not required by the text but only a requirement of your eschatology.


Take care

Hitch


The real key to understanding the Apocalypse is the literal meaning of the first three verses...


Steve makes sense to me on a number of his points.

First, I believe that the thousand year reign of Christ refers to those 1000 years of history called The Dark Ages.
(Note that NO OTHER ruler, empire, religion, political entity has EVER maintained itself for 1000 years,... only Universal Catholicism = 1000 years.

During these 1000 years, the only name in the ancient heavens, where Gods and mythological rulers had previously existed,...they ALL vanished, like a scoll rolled up. Only Jesus ruled in our entire Western Culture. These 1000 years found no use for Mammon, the beast that rules our commerical world today, and the beast that most certainly is referred to as the one which comes out of the abyss, along with the False Prophet, so obvious in his technological presence today.


The rapture is detailed in Revelation 7 just after the end of the church age when the lamb opens the Book, scripture, for all our disagreements to end... so these matters are at nhand and our individual opinions meaningless until then.