"In That Day"

[Mickey]

" In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things" (Septuigant; Amos 9:11-12).

The words "in that day" refer to the time when the Lord Jesus will return in glory and began to rule over His earthly kingdom.The verses that follow demonstrate that the nation of Israel will be brought back to their land and be "no more be pulled up out of their land":

"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God" (Amos 9:14,15).

Obviously this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.These verses say that the Lord will plant Israel in the land which He has given them and they will "no more be pulled up out" of that land.

James quoted Amos 9 from the Septuigant,and he put in His own words to replace the words "In that day",and those words refer to the return of Jesus Christ:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts15:16).

So clearly these unfulfilled prophecies will be fulfilled in the future,despite the teaching of the preterists that they will not.Philip Mauro sums up the ideas of preterists in regard to the future of Israel:

"For example, those expositors who think the Bible teaches us to expect hereafter a millennium of earthly bliss, a golden age of world-wide peace and plenty, during which the Jewish nation will be reconstituted and will have the place of headship over a world occupied by God-fearing and peace-loving Gentiles, base that expectation upon certain Old Testament prophecies which, they think, are to be fulfilled "literally"; and since they cannot possibly be fulfilled in that manner during this era of the Gospel, there must needs be an age to come of an entirely different character from this day of gospel salvation."

"From this Scripture alone it is evident (and the same truth is set forth at greater length in Gal. 4:21-31 and Hebrews Chapters VIII-X) that all future promises of glory and blessing for Israel and Zion must belong to the true Israel and the heavenly Zion." (Mauro,"The Hope of Israel",Chaper 2).

The verses from Amos do not reveal that the promises made to Israel are for "the true Israel and heavenly Zion".The verses from Amos declare that the Lord will "plant them upon their land".There is no "land" in the heavenly Zion.And the Lord says speaks of "the land I have given them",and it was not the so-called "true Israel" who received the land.

The preterists have yet to be able to explain the verses from Amos.

In Christ,
Mickey

[JackC]

" In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things" (Septuigant; Amos 9:11-12).

The words "in that day" refer to the time when the Lord Jesus will return in glory and began to rule over His earthly kingdom.The verses that follow demonstrate that the nation of Israel will be brought back to their land and be "no more be pulled up out of their land":

"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God" (Amos 9:14,15).

Obviously this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.These verses say that the Lord will plant Israel in the land which He has given them and they will "no more be pulled up out" of that land.

James quoted Amos 9 from the Septuigant,and he put in His own words to replace the words "In that day",and those words refer to the return of Jesus Christ:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts15:16).

So clearly these unfulfilled prophecies will be fulfilled in the future,despite the teaching of the preterists that they will not.Philip Mauro sums up the ideas of preterists in regard to the future of Israel:

"For example, those expositors who think the Bible teaches us to expect hereafter a millennium of earthly bliss, a golden age of world-wide peace and plenty, during which the Jewish nation will be reconstituted and will have the place of headship over a world occupied by God-fearing and peace-loving Gentiles, base that expectation upon certain Old Testament prophecies which, they think, are to be fulfilled "literally"; and since they cannot possibly be fulfilled in that manner during this era of the Gospel, there must needs be an age to come of an entirely different character from this day of gospel salvation."

"From this Scripture alone it is evident (and the same truth is set forth at greater length in Gal. 4:21-31 and Hebrews Chapters VIII-X) that all future promises of glory and blessing for Israel and Zion must belong to the true Israel and the heavenly Zion." (Mauro,"The Hope of Israel",Chaper 2).

The verses from Amos do not reveal that the promises made to Israel are for "the true Israel and heavenly Zion".The verses from Amos declare that the Lord will "plant them upon their land".There is no "land" in the heavenly Zion.And the Lord says speaks of "the land I have given them",and it was not the so-called "true Israel" who received the land.

The preterists have yet to be able to explain the verses from Amos.

In Christ,
Mickey


Hello again Mickey.

What you are seeing is indeed an unlifting of the veils that blind humanity to the verities that have been revealed in scripture.

If I may though offer a warning, one which may be unnecessary if you seek right understanding at all costs - we must not get trapped in the literal words offered in prophecies. This is the letter of the law and to be trapped there is death.

These prophecies are shadows, images offered in a way that is understandable to those such was being revealed to - just as Jesus taught about the Kingdom using images of farming and vineyards.

The subject here is spiritual Israel and the promised land offered her. Once one begins to see the Spirit behind scriptures, they take a step closer to the Truth that will make them free.

If you choose to stay in a literal interpretation, I understand for I remained there a bit as well. Just keep your heart and mind opened and keep seeking, then Truth will certainly find you.



Jack

[Mickey]

Hi Jack.Glad to hear from you again.You say:

The subject here is spiritual Israel and the promised land offered her.
When was the so-called "spiritual Israel" ever given any land?

Does your theology teach that the Body of Christ is "spiritual Israel"?If so,when was the Body of Christ ever given land?

"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever" (Ez.37:25).

The land which was given to Jacob is the land that was given to the nation of Israel,not the Body of Christ.

In Christ,
Mickey

[JackC]

Hi Jack.Glad to hear from you again.You say:


When was the so-called "spiritual Israel" ever given any land?

Does your theology teach that the Body of Christ is "spiritual Israel"?If so,when was the Body of Christ ever given land?

"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever" (Ez.37:25).

The land which was given to Jacob is the land that was given to the nation of Israel,not the Body of Christ.

In Christ,
Mickey

The Garden of Eden is the promised land. Eve and her Adam are spiritual Israel.

This Garden still exists, but we (Adam/Eve) have been cast out and barred from re - entering. And even though man has searched far and wide in the physical, he could not find the Garden. It exists someplace else, and will be revealed after physical earth and her heavens and all that is in them has been destroyed.

The same verities that you see in physical and Heavenly bodies, Mickey, exist for all creation, including earth.

Earth's physical body must fall away so that it's Heavenly body, it's Garden, can be revealed.



Jack

[Mickey]

The Garden of Eden is the promised land.
Nice try,Jack,but no cigar!

The promised land was the land that was given to the children of Israel.There is absolutely no Scriptual evidence that the land which was given to the nation of Israel was the "Garden of Eden".
Eve and her Adam are spiritual Israel.
Where is your Scriptual evidence for saying such a thing?

How could they be "spiritual Israel" despite the fact that Israel (Jacob) did not even exist until hundreds of years after both Adam and Eve had died?

In Christ,
Mickey

[JackC]

Nice try,Jack,but no cigar!

The promised land was the land that was given to the children of Israel.There is absolutely no Scriptual evidence that the land which was given to the nation of Israel was the "Garden of Eden".

Where is your Scriptual evidence for saying such a thing?

How could they be "spiritual Israel" despite the fact that Israel (Jacob) did not even exist until hundreds of years after both Adam and Eve had died?

In Christ,
Mickey

Just as Moses knew that there was another Tabernacle, a heavenly one, that the tabernacle in the physical was an image of, so is physical Israel an image of spiritual Israel.

Images, incarnations, of divine verities come into the physical to point to higher truths.

These mysteries of God cannot be seen if we look soley to the physical.

Whatever physical Israel was or will be is only an image, a shadow, given to us to point to the Ultimate Reality, the Eternal, existing only in Heaven.

1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things...





To see the spiritual behind the literal requires eyes that See and ears the Hear - spiritual perception. If we look soley with flesh and blood, they will be hidden from us.

Spiritual perception will come to us as we follow in obedience to the teachings of Jesus. To be able to find the Truth that makes us free, we must first be able to See and Hear It. And to do so we must become as little children. All our wise grown up theologies and doctrines will only serve to keep us blinded to the Truth that exists right here as near as our hands and feet.

It is simple, pure, innocent, only known by those who are childlike - pure and innocent themselves.

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.


Although Paul used the images and pictures of physical Israel to teach, he worked to expand the vision offered through the teachings of Christ to all of humanity.

It is not just Israel that has fallen from Grace, that needs redemption, but all of humanity, Adam.

Israel was chosen, not to be the sole kingdom on earth, but to show all of humanity they way back into the Kingdom of God.

As fallen Eve, we are all the unfaithful bride, waiting for the Bridegroom to redeem us.



Jack

[Mickey]

The subject here is spiritual Israel and the promised land offered her.
Hi Jack,

Ever since the nation of Israel came into existence there has always been a "spiritual Israel".The tern "children of Israel" means those who are descended from Israel (Jacob).And there have always been some out of Jacob who have been spiriual (Ro.11:2-5).

However,the teaching that the Body of Christ is "spiritual Israel" is nothing but a "tradition" which was invented by men.According to this tradition,the Lord has forever cast away that nation and He has no further plans for them.But the verses which I quoted from Amos proves otherwise.

Let us take a look at how this "tradition" that the CHurch is "spiritual Israel" came into existence.

When some of the early church leaders saw Jerusalem destroyed in the second Jewish revolt (A.D. 132-135) and the Jews excluded from Jerusalem upon penalty of death,they reasoned that the nation of Israel was apparently beyond any hope of recovery.Tertullian wrote:

"The Jews are scattered wanderers,excluded from their own land of Judea;this shows how they erred and forsook their calling,and how Judaism has been,therefore,superceded by Christianity",("The Apology").

These Gentile converts saw the condition of Israel,crushed apparently beyond the hope of recovery by the judgments that overwhelmed them,and reasoned that they would never be restored,in spite of the clear Revelation from God that ethnic Israel has not been cast away.Tertullian was not alone in this belief,as witnessed by the words of Justin Martyr in his conversation with the Jew Trypho:

"For the prophetical gifts remain with us,even at the present time.And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us" ("Dialogue of Justin with Trypho,a Jew:, Chapter 82).

These men ASSUMED that God had cast away Israel,and when they saw the unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel,they also were forced to ASSUME that the word "Israel" referred to the Church.

Noted church historian W.H.C.Frend observes that with this second fall of Jerusalem,"all hope of a restored Temple and Holy City now faded,and the Jews were thrown on to the defensive.The reference of the prophecies to an earthly restoration of the Jewish kingdom and Messiah in the form of a deliverer from Rome rule had to be abandoned"("The Old Testament in the Age of the Greek Apologists A.D.130-180";Scottish Journal of Theology, 26).

So the Gentile church leaders jumped to the false conclusion that God had finally cast away ethnic Israel,and the church had taken their place.They believed that the church had become "Spiritual Israel."Cyprian stated his belief that "the Jews,according to what had been foretold,had departed from God,and had lost God's favor while the Christians succeeded to their place"(Treatise 12-Three Books of Testimony Against the Jews).

Therfore,we can realize that the early church leaders believed that the Church is "spiritual Israel" based on what they saw instead of what the Scriptures reveal.

In Christ,
Mickey

[JackC]

Hi Jack,

Ever since the nation of Israel came into existence there has always been a "spiritual Israel".The tern "children of Israel" means those who are descended from Israel (Jacob).And there have always been some out of Jacob who have been spiriual (Ro.11:2-5).

However,the teaching that the Body of Christ is "spiritual Israel" is nothing but a "tradition" which was invented by men.According to this tradition,the Lord has forever cast away that nation and He has no further plans for them.But the verses which I quoted from Amos proves otherwise.

Let us take a look at how this "tradition" that the CHurch is "spiritual Israel" came into existence.

When some of the early church leaders saw Jerusalem destroyed in the second Jewish revolt (A.D. 132-135) and the Jews excluded from Jerusalem upon penalty of death,they reasoned that the nation of Israel was apparently beyond any hope of recovery.Tertullian wrote:

"The Jews are scattered wanderers,excluded from their own land of Judea;this shows how they erred and forsook their calling,and how Judaism has been,therefore,superceded by Christianity",("The Apology").

These Gentile converts saw the condition of Israel,crushed apparently beyond the hope of recovery by the judgments that overwhelmed them,and reasoned that they would never be restored,in spite of the clear Revelation from God that ethnic Israel has not been cast away.Tertullian was not alone in this belief,as witnessed by the words of Justin Martyr in his conversation with the Jew Trypho:

"For the prophetical gifts remain with us,even at the present time.And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us" ("Dialogue of Justin with Trypho,a Jew:, Chapter 82).

These men ASSUMED that God had cast away Israel,and when they saw the unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel,they also were forced to ASSUME that the word "Israel" referred to the Church.

Noted church historian W.H.C.Frend observes that with this second fall of Jerusalem,"all hope of a restored Temple and Holy City now faded,and the Jews were thrown on to the defensive.The reference of the prophecies to an earthly restoration of the Jewish kingdom and Messiah in the form of a deliverer from Rome rule had to be abandoned"("The Old Testament in the Age of the Greek Apologists A.D.130-180";Scottish Journal of Theology, 26).

So the Gentile church leaders jumped to the false conclusion that God had finally cast away ethnic Israel,and the church had taken their place.They believed that the church had become "Spiritual Israel."Cyprian stated his belief that "the Jews,according to what had been foretold,had departed from God,and had lost God's favor while the Christians succeeded to their place"(Treatise 12-Three Books of Testimony Against the Jews).

Therfore,we can realize that the early church leaders believed that the Church is "spiritual Israel" based on what they saw instead of what the Scriptures reveal.

In Christ,
Mickey


Hello Mickey,

All you need to do is transfer your arguments regarding a heavenly body to this topic - and the Truth behind physical Israel open up to you.

Just like we cannot be attached to our physical bodies, we cannot be attached to physical Israel. They are indeed flesh and blood and as such are not the Kingdom of God, nor as flesh and blood beings will they enter into it.

And since God will indeed destroy all that is physical on this earth, His Eternal Plans for the children of Israel are well beyond what exists on this earth, just as are His Eternal Plans for us.

However, on earth, in the physical, they were chosen, as shared before, for a special purpose - to create a Holy peoples through whom all of the earth world be blessed or helped. Unfortunately, they were deceived by false gods, and their Holy city fell.

The confusion comes in not realizing that there are patterns in creations, stories, images that repeat again and again. There is only God and all things in some way have come from Him, so it it not unexpected that we will see the same stories played out or the same verities manifested in different ways.

For example, Eve is the first story of the unfaithful bride - or the prodigal son - both share the same verities of fallenness. And as Eve was unfaithful, so is all of fallen humanity. The unfaithfulness is played out in many stories/histories including the story/history of the children of Israel.

All is given to us by God for help, all revelations, all chosenness, all rituals, all histories and stories. This is how great His Love is.

The Body of Christ, Mickey, is all of unfallen Creation.

All that was created was created through Him and by Him and as thus is Christ's manifestation in form.

The Body of Christ is the Tree of Life, which as fallen beings we are cut off from, separated. And so both redeemed Israel (in Heavenly bodies) and those saved through Jesus, will again be the Body of Christ, re-connected with the Tree of Life, the hierarchy of Creation, through which all true sustenance is received, manna, the Living Waters, directly from the Source - the Father God.

As fallen beings we must toil the soil for our sustenance, and what we receive - spiritually and physically - is much contaminated!

(hint: there are no sewers in Heaven)

Mickey, you are not afraid to see what others cannot see. And so I suggest that you step back, and look for the bigger picture here and scripture will come Alive for you.

For the Word of God is Living and Powerful and can be found by the pure in heart behind all scripture.



Jack

[Mickey]

Just like we cannot be attached to our physical bodies, we cannot be attached to physical Israel.
Hi Jack,

You might not be attached to physical Israel,but the Lord is:

"For the Lord will not forsake His people for His great name's sake,because it had pleased the Lord to make you His people"(1Sam.12:22).
"For the Lord will not cast off His people,neither will He forsake His inheritance"(Ps.94:14).
And since God will indeed destroy all that is physical on this earth, His Eternal Plans for the children of Israel are well beyond what exists on this earth, just as are His Eternal Plans for us.Yes,but as Amos says,the Lord still has plans for the nation of Israel after the Lord Jesus returns.
The Body of Christ, Mickey, is all of unfallen Creation.
The Scriptures say that only those who believe the gospel are baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Mickey

[JackC]

Hi Jack,

You might not be attached to physical Israel,but the Lord is:

"For the Lord will not forsake His people for His great name's sake,because it had pleased the Lord to make you His people"(1Sam.12:22).
"For the Lord will not cast off His people,neither will He forsake His inheritance"(Ps.94:14).
Yes,but as Amos says,the Lord still has plans for the nation of Israel after the Lord Jesus returns.

The Scriptures say that only those who believe the gospel are baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Mickey

God does care for all form that has been created. But God cares more for our souls. And so will destroy all of physical earth - including the nation of Israel, to free our souls from bondage.

He will burn all matter, dissingrate it until nothing is left and the Heavenly Garden, the New Jerusalem, that has been from the beginning, will be revealed.

While there are some images and pictures found in the OT that can be helpful to advance one's understanding, like all things of this world we cannot cling to them, for they are temporal. They will pass away.

All it takes is one taste of the Living Waters, the divine Source of all Wisdom and Truth, to cut through the clouds of distortions and misunderstandings that surround the OT.

As Jesus said, without God's Word - the Living Waters - abiding in us, we cannot see Truth in scripture.

And so we really cannot tell another what scripture means or doesn't mean, we can only point them to the Kingdom within, so that they may find the One Absolute Truth that has been written on their heart, and let all falsity fall away.

Only then will the verities in scripture open up for them.

Otherwise, sparring over understandings is just a distraction, keeping us from truly seeking the Kingdom.




Jack