Who should have the final say as to abortion?

[Stabbytheclown]

Well, since my opinions are irrelevant to Minn, I created my own poll. With beer and blackjack. And hookers. If you're choice isn't here, your opinon is still relevant, you just don't get to vote.

[a_Mister_Smith]

Well, since my opinions are irrelevant to Minn, I created my own poll. With beer and blackjack. And hookers. If you're choice isn't here, your opinon is still relevant, you just don't get to vote.

You left out the option of the state (the government).

Mister Smith

[Stabbytheclown]

You left out the option of the state (the government).

Mister Smith
I know. I left out a bunch that I wanted to include (six options max, remember?) but I figured few would have voted for state enforcement. If your opinions aren't on the poll, tell us them in the thread.

[a_Mister_Smith]

I know. I left out a bunch that I wanted to include (six options max, remember?) but I figured few would have voted for state enforcement. If your opinions aren't on the poll, tell us them in the thread.

It is the same as I said on another thread with the same question, the state (the government). Individuals who want to kill other individuals will naturally grant themselves the final say if they have that option.

Mister Smith

[Stabbytheclown]

It is the same as I said on another thread with the same question, the state (the government). Individuals who want to kill other individuals will naturally grant themselves the final say if they have that option.

Mister Smith
Are you saying that the government should intervene in every pregnancy and decide if that potential person should be born or aborted, regardless of the opinions of the mother, father and doctor?

[a_Mister_Smith]

Are you saying that the government should intervene in every pregnancy and decide if that potential person should be born or aborted, regardless of the opinions of the mother, father and doctor?

No, of course not. That is the same as saying the government would have to intervene in every human to human contact in order to allow or disallow a killing. The legislature simply made it illegal to murder people, therefore all that is needed if society wants the potential person to be protected by law, is legislation. If the lawmakers grant the potential person personhood and legal protection, then the only time the government would have to intervene is when there is a crime reported (an abortion). An investigation would follow the same as if born persons are suffer a suspicious death. If there is evidence that a crime has been committed, arrests will be made. If society does not support laws to protect the potential persons, then legislation is less likely, since society will not put legislators in power who are 'pro-life'.

Mister Smith

[Stabbytheclown]

No, of course not. That is the same as saying the government would have to intervene in every human to human contact in order to allow or disallow a killing. The legislature simply made it illegal to murder people, therefore all that is needed if society wants the potential person to be protected by law, is legislation. If the lawmakers grant the potential person personhood and legal protection, then the only time the government would have to intervene is when there is a crime reported (an abortion). An investigation would follow the same as if born persons are suffer a suspicious death. If there is evidence that a crime has been committed, arrests will be made. If society does not support laws to protect the potential persons, then legislation is less likely, since society will not put legislators in power who are 'pro-life'.

Mister Smith
I see. Well, the poll was really about "to whom should government legislation give the right to decide". In such a case, saying the governmnet would give them the power to abort anyone's baby. Quite a campaign slogan: "vote for us or we'll have your children aborted".

[voidhawk]

My opinion,

As of today, within the legal framework set by the UK government – solely the mother’s choice. If appropriate hopefully the mother will consult the father and health professionals but the final choice should be hers alone.

[jason]

You left out the person who should have the most say.

The person with the greatest stake in the question is the one who is going to be killed and they, should get the final say.

Jason

[Ryokan]

Well, my POV is that, since I don't think abortion should be legal in general, it should be the doctors call and the parents call. In cases of risk of life, serious inury or what not.

[Stabbytheclown]

You left out the person who should have the most say.

The person with the greatest stake in the question is the one who is going to be killed and they, should get the final say.

Jason
Are you seriously wanting to ask the opinion of a collection of cells the size of a pin head? Or are you just saying it is wrong in all cases? If the latter, the is such an option.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

The poll options are pitifully inadequate. Either you're pro-choice, or you think a woman must die rather than abort. Idiot. Or dishonest person, but "idiot" is less severe.

[themuzicman]

Mother, fatherAssuming the father is the husband]* and doctor must agree it is (the) best ... option for saving the life of the mother. (that one needed to be clarified.)

[Stabbytheclown]

The poll options are pitifully inadequate. Either you're pro-choice, or you think a woman must die rather than abort. Idiot. Or dishonest person, but "idiot" is less severe.
Hey, jackass, there's only six options. If you have a view that's not among them, share it.

Edited for tact.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Gee, and of all the options to exclude, exclude the one that most pro lifers hold. Yeah, that wasn't intentional. Idiot. Or dishonest person, but "idiot" is less severe.

[Stabbytheclown]

Gee, and of all the options to exclude, exclude the one that most pro lifers hold. Yeah, that wasn't intentional. Idiot. Or dishonest person, but "idiot" is less severe.

So tell us your view. Or would you rather hurl insults? Dumb question, I've read your posts before and never seen you write anything else. FYI, I'm undecided as to where exactly I stand on the issue.

Edited because I momentarily sank as low as Theonomy

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

The relevance of the homosexual reference would be?

[Stabbytheclown]

The relevance of the homosexual reference would be?
Now withdrawn. Apologies to any homosexuals I may have offended by associating you with Theonomy.

[Stabbytheclown]

Oh, additional: if your vitriolic petulance is due to there being no option for "only allow it if mother would die", I intended that to be covered by "solely doctor's decision". If that's not it, please explain what pro-life option I've left out that has pissed you off so much.

[jason]

Are you seriously wanting to ask the opinion of a collection of cells the size of a pin head? Or are you just saying it is wrong in all cases? If the latter, the is such an option.
I'm saying that you should not be killing a human being when their is an option.

You are tacitly assuming without justification that the life being taken is something others can decide to take.

You might be comfortable with such thinking but I am not.

Abortion is only acceptable in triage situations, which you have failed to cover.

Jason

[Stabbytheclown]

I'm saying that you should not be killing a human being when their is an option.

You are tacitly assuming without justification that the life being taken is something others can decide to take.

You might be comfortable with such thinking but I am not.

Abortion is only acceptable in triage situations, which you have failed to cover.

Jason
So couldn't you have put "wrong in all cases" or "doctor decides"? I am genuinely interested in your views, here. Would you allow it in cases of rape or incest (I see I have left that out of the poll - regret it now)?

[jason]

So couldn't you have put "wrong in all cases" or "doctor decides"? I am genuinely interested in your views, here. Would you allow it in cases of rape or incest (I see I have left that out of the poll - regret it now)?
Why would you execute a victim of a crime ?

Do you support killing women who are raped because they are now soiled ?

Why would you support the same sort of reasoning for killing the child ?

Jason

[Stabbytheclown]

Why would you execute a victim of a crime ?

Do you support killing women who are raped because they are now soiled ?

Why would you support the same sort of reasoning for killing the child ?

Jason

I never said I would, I was asking you. As I said earlier, I am not entirely sure where I stand.

I would tentatively say that I would allow it if the doctor was convinced the birth would kill the mother. If either parant wanted to keep it, and there was no risk involved in having it, then the other shouldn't be able to have it terminated. Beyond, that, I'm not yet sure.

Now please tell me where you stand.

[jason]

I never said I would, I was asking you. As I said earlier, I am not entirely sure where I stand.

I would tentatively say that I would allow it if the doctor was convinced the birth would kill the mother. If either parant wanted to keep it, and there was no risk involved in having it, then the other shouldn't be able to have it terminated. Beyond, that, I'm not yet sure.

Now please tell me where you stand.
I told you, triage cases only. At the point where you are choosing between a case like, mother or child, or mother or nobody, then in that case, the precedent goes to saving a life.

In the case of choosing between the mother and the child, it is up to the mother to decide whether to save herself or her child.

Although these are quite rare circumstances.

I would oppose abortion in other circumstances, you don't kill unborn children for the "crime" of being inconvenient, and you don't execute rape victims, and of course you don't execute people for being disabled.

Jason

[Stabbytheclown]

Thanks

[voidhawk]

You left out the person who should have the most say.

The person with the greatest stake in the question is the one who is going to be killed and they, should get the final say.

Jason

It has not been demonstrated as far as I am aware that a foetus in the early stages of development is a person. I do not believe the conjectured opinions of a potential person should override the expressed wishes of an actual person. In this case the pregnant women who has decided to have an abortion.

[jason]

It has not been demonstrated as far as I am aware that a foetus in the early stages of development is a person.
Actually the burden of prood is on those who deny it, not those who affirm it. The unborn child is a human being and should be treated as such. They are as human as anyone else, and they deserve the same protections.

But if you think its ok to kill those who are inconvent and defenseless, then, well I guess you are just morally confused.

Jason

[Bill the Cat]

I had a young lady in my youth group that found out that she was a child of rape and that her dad was not her biological father. If you ask her if she wanted to live because she was conceived by rape, what do you think she'd say?

[Stabbytheclown]

Actually the burden of prood is on those who deny it, not those who affirm it. The unborn child is a human being and should be treated as such. They are as human as anyone else, and they deserve the same protections.

But if you think its ok to kill those who are inconvent and defenseless, then, well I guess you are just morally confused.

Jason
Hmm... Not to imply that I'm coming down off the fence, but how can you put the burden of proof on those who deny it? How can you prove that something is not a person? If I built a robot and said it was a person, demanding it should have equal rights as us, would the burden be on me to prove it is, or someone else to prove it is not?
Just what makes a person, anyway? If it is thoughts and feelings, a week old collection of cells would not qualify; although it has the potential to evolve into something that does.
Why the cut-off point at fertilization, anyway? A fertilized egg is no more alive than the constituent egg and sperm parts. Is it because you feel it acquires some sort of immortal soul at this point?

[Alien]

I note with interest, but no surprise, that those who favor forcing a woman who has not only been submitted to the horror of rape, but now finds herself pregnant as a result, to go through nine months of pregnancy and birth a child who will forever remind her of what happened, are all men.

I am sure there are women who would decide to continue the pregnancy, and I support their decision in that case. Forcing an unwilling woman to bear a child in those circumstances I find reprehensible.

[Bill the Cat]

I note with interest, but no surprise, that those who favor forcing a woman who has not only been submitted to the horror of rape, but now finds herself pregnant as a result, to go through nine months of pregnancy and birth a child who will forever remind her of what happened, are all men.

The abortion would not erase the pain of the rape, only add to it. Plus it adds on top of the continued pain of rape the medical and psychological problems inherant in abortion. And this comes from my wife who had 4 abortions.


I am sure there are women who would decide to continue the pregnancy, and I support their decision in that case. Forcing an unwilling woman to bear a child in those circumstances I find reprehensible.

Like I posted above, would you ask the young lady if she wanted to live now that she found out she was a result of a rape? If we can't ask the embryo or fetus if they would rather die instead of reminding their mother of something she will remember anyway, then how about just waiting until we can ask them and then letting them decide for themselves?

That's my 2 bits.

[Alien]

The abortion would not erase the pain of the rape, only add to it. Plus it adds on top of the continued pain of rape the medical and psychological problems inherant in abortion. And this comes from my wife who had 4 abortions.

Was she raped? And can you be sure that the negative consequences of an abortion would be worse than those of an unwanted pregnancy, particularly under these circumstances?

I'd truly like to hear some women's opinions on this. My feeling is that it might be like being raped (homosexually) and being left with an STD. I'd want to get rid of it as soon as possible. But then, I'm just a man. If any women feel moved to respond, remember we're talking about a pregnancy resulting from rape, not about unwanted pregnancy in general.


Like I posted above, would you ask the young lady if she wanted to live now that she found out she was a result of a rape? If we can't ask the embryo or fetus if they would rather die instead of reminding their mother of something she will remember anyway, then how about just waiting until we can ask them and then letting them decide for themselves?


At which time the decision is already made. Whatever we do, the decision can only be made by adults present now. In any case, the dice are loaded as just about everyone wants to stay alive, it's built in.

[Bill the Cat]

Was she raped?

Once, yes. The other 3 were voluntary "my parents will kill me" reactions of convenience. She still cries about them 16 years later. And she still has nightmares about the rape. Double the tears.


And can you be sure that the negative consequences of an abortion would be worse than those of an unwanted pregnancy, particularly under these circumstances?

As a result of my wife's cervix being forcably dilated over and over, she now has an incompetent cervix, and only found that out because she went into premature labor and lost her daughter shortly before we started dating.

I'd truly like to hear some women's opinions on this. My feeling is that it might be like being raped (homosexually) and being left with an STD. I'd want to get rid of it as soon as possible. But then, I'm just a man. If any women feel moved to respond, remember we're talking about a pregnancy resulting from rape, not about unwanted pregnancy in general.


I'd especially like to hear from ones who have had an abortion. If a woman has never had to stare down THAT barrel, they are as unqualified to discuss this as we men are.


At which time the decision is already made. Whatever we do, the decision can only be made by adults present now. In any case, the dice are loaded as just about everyone wants to stay alive, it's built in.

So do we just not let the fetus toss the dice?

[dizzle]

One does not murder a child because its father was a rapist. If abortion is wrong, it is wrong no matter how the child was conceived. One does not compund the crime of rape with the crime of murder. Suggesting that mother kill her child so that she will not be reminded of a rape (which she will remember anyways) is IMHO incredibly insulting to women.

[Alien]

Once, yes. The other 3 were voluntary "my parents will kill me" reactions of convenience. She still cries about them 16 years later. And she still has nightmares about the rape. Double the tears.


She has my deepest sympathy. Would she now chose to bear the child that resulted from the rape if she had the option? (If this is getting too personal, I'll happily drop it).


As a result of my wife's cervix being forcably dilated over and over, she now has an incompetent cervix, and only found that out because she went into premature labor and lost her daughter shortly before we started dating.

Again, my profound sympathies.


I'd especially like to hear from ones who have had an abortion. If a woman has never had to stare down THAT barrel, they are as unqualified to discuss this as we men are.

Yes, I agree. And better still, those who became pregnant as the result of rape. We may not have many candidates though.



So do we just not let the fetus toss the dice?

It can't. It has no sentience at this point. Like it or not, the responsibility lies with the parents (or maybe society at large).

[Alien]

One does not murder a child because its father was a rapist. If abortion is wrong, it is wrong no matter how the child was conceived. One does not compund the crime of rape with the crime of murder. Suggesting that mother kill her child so that she will not be reminded of a rape (which she will remember anyways) is IMHO incredibly insulting to women.

I'm not suggesting that anyone do anything. I'm saying that there are more involved in this than just the fetus, and that the decision should rest with those most intimately affected, primarily the raped woman herself.

And it's not just being reminded of the rape. It might be that the pregnancy itself would be unbearable to a raped woman. I don't know, that's why I hoped that some women with direct experience of this would speak up. I know you have had abortions. Were any of them the result of rape?

[dizzle]

I don't think any experience is required, and I found it silly that the men in this thread thought that they didn't have a right to an opinion.

Women are a bit more strong than you are giving them credit for. We don't have to kill our children to bear a traumatic circumstance. And having a traumatic circumstance is no excuse to killl another person. And I would think the one getting killed IS the one with the most direct contact with the issue.

[Alien]

I don't think any experience is required, and I found it silly that the men in this thread thought that they didn't have a right to an opinion.

Then my opinion that a raped woman has the right to decide what happens if she finds herself pregnant stands, I guess. What I was suggesting was that women might be better qualified to know how this hypothetical woman might feel about carrying a rapist's child. BTC amplified this by suggesting that she would probably have a better opinion if she had had an abortion, whiich I agreed with. Men can form an opinion, of course, but they can't really know how a woman feels in this circumstance.


Women are a bit more strong than you are giving them credit for.

Some are, some are not. Of course if you had your way it wouldn't matter how strong they were, they'd have no choice in the matter, right?


We don't have to kill our children to bear a traumatic circumstance.

No. But does a woman have to bear a child by someone she detests, as a result of a traumatic experience that she never agreed to?


And having a traumatic circumstance is no excuse to killl another person. And I would think the one getting killed IS the one with the most direct contact with the issue.

Even though the fetus doesn't have the capacity to feel anything, let alone form an opinion on the matter? BTC was suggesting that the wishes of the fetus could be ascertained by reference to some grown person, which I challenged.

[voidhawk]

Actually the burden of prood is on those who deny it, not those who affirm it. The unborn child is a human being and should be treated as such. They are as human as anyone else, and they deserve the same protections.

But if you think its ok to kill those who are inconvent and defenseless, then, well I guess you are just morally confused.

Jason

I was typing a reply but I saw that Stabbytheclown had done it for me, and more succinctly. (see quote below)

Thanks Stabby.

The only additional comment I would make is that the word who in Jason’s second sentence goes to the heart of the matter from my perspective. Because I do not have any evidence that a foetus in the early stages of development is a person rather than potential person there is no who to kill.


Hmm... Not to imply that I'm coming down off the fence, but how can you put the burden of proof on those who deny it? How can you prove that something is not a person? If I built a robot and said it was a person, demanding it should have equal rights as us, would the burden be on me to prove it is, or someone else to prove it is not?
Just what makes a person, anyway? If it is thoughts and feelings, a week old collection of cells would not qualify; although it has the potential to evolve into something that does.
Why the cut-off point at fertilization, anyway? A fertilized egg is no more alive than the constituent egg and sperm parts. Is it because you feel it acquires some sort of immortal soul at this point?

[neocon_voter]

I was typing a reply but I saw that Stabbytheclown had done it for me, and more succinctly. (see quote below)

Thanks Stabby.

The only additional comment I would make is that the word who in Jason’s second sentence goes to the heart of the matter from my perspective. Because I do not have any evidence that a foetus in the early stages of development is a person rather than potential person there is no who to kill.

Hello there.
It has already been demonstrated that the pre-born human is a human being and that human beings are persons by definition in the ‘Abortion and the Bible’ thread POST 14 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1451139&postcount=14), and POST 31 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1451535&postcount=31), and the ‘Fetus Cannot Feel Pain, Expert Says' thread POST 169 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1476481&postcount=169) and POST 191 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1481078&postcount=191).

The controversy is whether or not it is ok to kill persons/human beings while they're vulnerable and unaware of their existance.

Neocon_Voter

[Bill the Cat]

She has my deepest sympathy. Would she now chose to bear the child that resulted from the rape if she had the option? (If this is getting too personal, I'll happily drop it).

She says...
"Without a doubt"

It can't. It has no sentience at this point. Like it or not, the responsibility lies with the parents (or maybe society at large).

So why not wait until it can toss them? What's the rush?

[jason]

I note with interest, but no surprise, that those who favor forcing a woman who has not only been submitted to the horror of rape, but now finds herself pregnant as a result, to go through nine months of pregnancy and birth a child who will forever remind her of what happened, are all men.

I am sure there are women who would decide to continue the pregnancy, and I support their decision in that case. Forcing an unwilling woman to bear a child in those circumstances I find reprehensible.

I find it reprehensible that someone would advocate the execution of the victim of a crime, worse yet that a someone claiming to be a christian would advocate that an innocent victim of a crime should be executed.

What sort of a barbarian are you ?

Jason

[jason]

I'm not suggesting that anyone do anything. I'm saying that there are more involved in this than just the fetus, and that the decision should rest with those most intimately affected, primarily the raped woman herself.
Why is the child that is conceived any less involved than the woman ? You are proposing to execute that child for the crimes of another.

And frankly you have it backwards, the child is something that can bring redemption and good out of the whole traumatic event. Do you realise the presumed narcissim of the woman inherent in the argument you are making ?

I agree that execution is the appropriate penalty for violent rape, but I suggest the much saner alternative of executing the rapist and protecting the lives of the victims.

Jason

[Alien]

Hello there.
It has already been demonstrated that the pre-born human is a human being and that human beings are persons by definition in the ‘Abortion and the Bible’ thread POST 14 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1451139&postcount=14), and POST 31 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1451535&postcount=31), and the ‘Fetus Cannot Feel Pain, Expert Says' thread POST 169 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1476481&postcount=169) and POST 191 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1481078&postcount=191).

The controversy is whether or not it is ok to kill persons/human beings while they're vulnerable and unaware of their existance.

Neocon_Voter

I'd be interested in how something with no nervous system (as is a fetus in the early stages) can feel pain. Also how something that is unaware of its existence can feel pain either.

But I guess as it's been demonstrated I must be wrong.

[Alien]

She says... "Without a doubt"

My wife (on being asked a theoretical question about this) said: "I'd definitely have an abortion".

So where does that leave us?


So why not wait until it can toss them? What's the rush?

I thought I'd covered this. You can't abort an 18 year old (or whatever) woman. The decision has to be made NOW!

(Toss what?)

[Thanks for keeping this on a civilized level, btw. I see the "righteous indignation" crowd has arrived, so I may be quitting soon.]

[Alien]

I find it reprehensible that someone would advocate the execution of the victim of a crime, worse yet that a someone claiming to be a christian would advocate that an innocent victim of a crime should be executed.

I see.


What sort of a barbarian are you ?


I'm English by birth and my last name suggests that my family probably came from France. So, probably a Gaul.

What kind of crimes where your parents deported for? :wink:

(Sorry, but I'm not responding seriously when all you can do is insult me.)

[neocon_voter]

Hello there.
It has already been demonstrated that the pre-born human is a human being and that human beings are persons by definition in the ‘Abortion and the Bible’ thread POST 14 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1451139&postcount=14), and POST 31 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1451535&postcount=31), and the ‘Fetus Cannot Feel Pain, Expert Says' thread POST 169 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1476481&postcount=169) and POST 191 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1481078&postcount=191).

The controversy is whether or not it is ok to kill persons/human beings while they're vulnerable and unaware of their existance.

Neocon_Voter

Originally posted by Alien
I'd be interested in how something with no nervous system (as is a fetus in the early stages) can feel pain. Also how something that is unaware of its existence can feel pain either.
But I guess as it's been demonstrated I must be wrong.

That's not what I demonstrated. I don't claim the unborn child can feel pain, only that its a human being and that human beings are persons by definition

Neocon_Voter

[Alien]

That's not what I demonstrated. I don't claim the unborn child can feel pain, only that its a human being and that human beings are persons by definition

Neocon_Voter

Sorry about that, I guess I didn't read your post carefully enough. Correction noted.

[Rahab]

Bonjour Alien,

I was hesitant to participate in this thread as I too noted that the so far civil tone was taking a bad turn. BUT, because a request was made to have an input from a woman who had abortions and specificaly a rape victim, I will honor it.

Insults and personal attacks replies will be dismissed.

My first abortion was the product of a date rape. One of the most "betrayal" situations I can think of. You trust your boy friend to respect the boundaries you have set. You are still preserving what you consider precious about yourself. I have no memories of the act itself. I was drugged. So, in my experience, the notion of the pregnancy being a reminder of the assault did not play a role.

What played a role though was that I was 17. That I felt profoundly ashame. Very frightened too by the thought of having to tell my parents that I had been raped.My mother did not have the necessary mental health to assume my tragedies. My father would have rejected me. I faced the entire ordeal alone. The only thought that was on my mind was to erase any trace or clue of what had happened to me. I wanted to feel normal again. Most rape victims experience a state of shame and self condemnation. We tend to want to wipe out the whole experience. Some of us numb our emotions. It is quite overwhelming.

I will say though that how I treated my body as I became an adult was very much influenced by that event. There was no further notion of preciousness.I wasted myself away, always looking for a way to recapture a sense of worth. But I went the wrong way about it. I became very needy of male affection and more importantly approval. Two more abortions resulted from those years. I simply did not care about any consequence. I considered myself as being "privileged" to benefit of an embrace I always mistakenly and tragicaly viewed as an appreciation and validation of my person. I often reach back to that person I was and grieve the waste of myself.

I will add that abortions are a traumatic event. It matters not that we are pro choice or pro life. By nature, women are formed to shelter and nurture with their own organs the future child. It is, let's face it, an intrusion , an interference with what is naturaly programmed to happen. Whichever response a woman gives to her abortion, the majority of women I counseled in PAS all shared in common a sense of loss while experiencing a sense of relief. If not consciously experienced, those two keep conflicting at the subconscious level.

To go back to the OP, it is my opinion that the woman is to be the sole decision maker. Certainly not the state who has no business exercising a custodial role over the exclusive ownership and choice of use of our organs.

As far as pro life arguments presented in this thread: there are 3 currents of thoughts which divide the ethical approach to abortion.

One being "embodied subjectivity" as an argument to define personhood in the unborn(sentience, ability to experience one's existence, capacity to have both sensorial and intellectual abilities to percieve and interpret one's environment). Such concept does not support the notion of the unborn to benefit of the status of existing person at all stages of fetal development. The majority of folks(such as myself) who support "embodied subjectivity" do see a serious ethical issue with any abortion at the time the human fetus has the capacity to have any sensorial and intellectual ability to experience and interpret and respond to its environment. We tend to promote an extension of the status of Constitutional Identity for the unborn PRIOR to birth.

With Constitutional Identity, can we then speak of rights and privileges to challenge the mother's choice. In essence, the majority of pregnancies ought to be detected before the fetus reaches that status.

The "biology species" argument : the human blastocyst having a specific and unique DNA coding to the homo sapien species is to be regarded as a person from the time of fertilization and on. Such concept does not support the notion of personhood being connected to the physical capacity of a sensorial and intellectual experience and interpretation of our environment. Viability based on encephalic function is not a factor.

The "potentiality" argument : the human blastocyst being naturaly programmed to pursue a development in utero leading to a confirmed stage of viability out utero is deserving of the right to reach that potential. Such argument rejects the encephalic function as being the focal point of viability in medecine. It proposes that there is a difference between clinical encephalic death and the absence of an encephalic organ (to include thalamus, cortex and stem). Dwelling on the notion that it has yet to be formed in the human embryo yet denying that viability in our species is dependent on the presence of such organ. I often use the term "existing person" because if the "potentiality" argument has some validity , it still does not make a case to prove that a blastocyst is an existing person as a blastocyst.

The other counter argument being the issue of establishing legislations on potentials or actuals.

What about a decision from the "doctor" as it was suggested in the poll? Physicians in any of their professional capacities are not to be decision makers. They do not have any authority nor should they have the authority to decide which course of treatment or procedure their patient is to choose. The Patient's Bill of Rights is to be applied in gynecology and obstetrics as it is applied in any other fields of medecine. That they recommend one course or the other is to be expected as per their professional expertise.

It is extremely rare that in the course of a necessary surgery such as removing a malignant ovarian tumor, while encountering complications, a surgeon in absence of the patient's ability to communicate her will, would have to make a decision which may terminate the pregnancy.

The biological father?

It would take for a judge to consider publicaly that such father, by the nature of contributing his sperm to the process of the fertilization of the ovum, has a right of ownership on the embryo. Which still would not make the case for giving him also the right to exercise a custodial role over the exclusive ownership and choice of use of the mother's organs. Organs that belong only to her, organs which are absolutly vital to sustain the continuation of the pregnancy. Once science figures out a way to provide an out utero environment, maybe, a weak maybe, such biological fathers can venture in requesting that the embryo be removed from the mother and placed in another gestational environment.

In the meantime, the male gender will need to find female mates who INTEND to become pregnant and have clearly communicated their consenting will to desire to get pregnant as the result of sexual intercourse.

In any case, I strongly oppose the notion of depriving women from the exclusive right of ownership and choice of use of their organs. We do not force or coherse bone marrow, blood and organ donors. We do not call them murderers when they make the choice to not donate their own organs and bodily fluids to assure the viability of other existing persons.

We do not live in a society where we uphold the notion of inseminating women forcefuly with the sperm of a stranger.... that is exactly what a pregnancy resulting from a rape is. It is a forceful and violent act of control over her body, body which she has exclusive ownership of. To include that ovum she never volunteered to be fertilized by the sperm of her assailliant.

I was once a victim of such an act of control. I would have been a twice victim if the legislators of my country had decided to also control the outcome of such act. Which was a non consential use of my ovum, a violation of my person, one who was undoubtly an existing person, a thinking ,feeling, sensing and percieving individual.

I personaly have no regret of having chosen to terminate that pregnancy some 33 years ago.

[Alien]

Bonjour Alien,

Bonjour, thank you for responding.


I was hesitant to participate in this thread as I too noted that the so far civil tone was taking a bad turn. BUT, because a request was made to have an input from a woman who had abortions and specificaly a rape victim, I will honor it.

I consider the decision to reveal these personal experiences to be a brave one. I call on others to show Rahab respect, regardless of their stance in the abortion debate.


My first abortion was the product of a date rape. One of the most "betrayal" situations I can think of. You trust your boy friend to respect the boundaries you have set. You are still preserving what you consider precious about yourself. I have no memories of the act itself. I was drugged. So, in my experience, the notion of the pregnancy being a reminder of the assault did not play a role.

What played a role though was that I was 17. That I felt profoundly ashame. Very frightened too by the thought of having to tell my parents that I had been raped.My mother did not have the necessary mental health to assume my tragedies. My father would have rejected me. I faced the entire ordeal alone. The only thought that was on my mind was to erase any trace or clue of what had happened to me. I wanted to feel normal again. Most rape victims experience a state of shame and self condemnation. We tend to want to wipe out the whole experience. Some of us numb our emotions. It is quite overwhelming.

That is very sad. All young men should be exposed to stories like this. I know (though I have never raped anyone) that my respect for the feelings of women was less than it should have been when I was young. I regret it now.


I will say though that how I treated my body as I became an adult was very much influenced by that event. There was no further notion of preciousness.I wasted myself away, always looking for a way to recapture a sense of worth. But I went the wrong way about it. I became very needy of male affection and more importantly approval. Two more abortions resulted from those years. I simply did not care about any consequence. I considered myself as being "privileged" to benefit of an embrace I always mistakenly and tragicaly viewed as an appreciation and validation of my person. I often reach back to that person I was and grieve the waste of myself.

My deepest sympathies.


I will add that abortions are a traumatic event. It matters not that we are pro choice or pro life. By nature, women are formed to shelter and nurture with their own organs the future child. It is, let's face it, an intrusion , an interference with what is naturaly programmed to happen. Whichever response a woman gives to her abortion, the majority of women I counseled in PAS all shared in common a sense of loss while experiencing a sense of relief. If not consciously experienced, those two keep conflicting at the subconscious level.

That's interesting. The emotion of relief is not typically spoken of in these discussions. This is why I wanted to hear some personal experience, not in search of vindication of my own beliefs, but genuinely wanting edification. I repeat that men are quite unequipped to know how a woman feels in this circumstance.

My interest here was solely in the case of a raped pregnant woman, so I won't comment further on your general points about decision making regarding abortions. I will say that I wholeheartedly agree that doctors should not make decisions about procedures to be applied to patients (though they should not be forced to perform procedures that they are opposed to on ethical or medical grounds).

Thanks again for your response.

[jordanriver]

Bonjour, thank you for responding.



I consider the decision to reveal these personal experiences to be a brave one. I call on others to show Rahab respect, regardless of their stance in the abortion debate.



That is very sad. All young men should be exposed to stories like this. I know (though I have never raped anyone) that my respect for the feelings of women was less than it should have been when I was young. I regret it now.



My deepest sympathies.



That's interesting. The emotion of relief is not typically spoken of in these discussions. This is why I wanted to hear some personal experience, not in search of vindication of my own beliefs, but genuinely wanting edification. I repeat that men are quite unequipped to know how a woman feels in this circumstance.

My interest here was solely in the case of a raped pregnant woman, so I won't comment further on your general points about decision making regarding abortions. I will say that I wholeheartedly agree that doctors should not make decisions about procedures to be applied to patients (though they should not be forced to perform procedures that they are opposed to on ethical or medical grounds).

Thanks again for your response.

what if your already pregnat with youre husbands child you both want , then your raped by some raper, should you then get an abortion because somehow bein pregnatn reminds you of bein raped.

JR

[salvationfound]

I picked the last one but my true answer is never unless it could result in the
mother's death but I personally don't consider that abortion.

Very touching story Rahab

[Rahab]

Bonjour, thank you for responding.



I consider the decision to reveal these personal experiences to be a brave one. I call on others to show Rahab respect, regardless of their stance in the abortion debate. And thank you for your kind reply. The main issue,IMO, with women sharing in the open their experience with abortion is that many are stigmatized for making a choice others consider to be unethical. One of my counselee was a pastor's wife who had been living in self condemnation for years. She thought of herself as unworthy of serving alongside with her husband. She was paralized in helping with various ministries. So fearful of judgement and rejection. She would identify any failures in their church as a punishment from God upon her. The poor soul suffered so much because of confusing the self righteousness and "holier than thou" response of some with a response from Christ.



.That is very sad. All young men should be exposed to stories like this. I know (though I have never raped anyone) that my respect for the feelings of women was less than it should have been when I was young. I regret it now. I would think most men as they mature do realize that they lacked understanding and empathy towards their past female mates. Such wisdom has to come from the ability to introspect. The same applies to women as they mature IMO. They become less demanding and do not place high expectations on their male mate anylonger such as them guessing what the right response is to be!:wink: Passive agressivity tends to decrease with age. We become less controlling and more willing to "cut some slack".

But yes...more than sex ed in schools, it would be helpful for the younger generation to be counseled in what a relationship entails. Trust being extremely vital.



.My deepest sympathies. I really was not looking for sympathy. I made those choices on my own. I had the alternative to reflect and set aside my emotional needs. Counseling would have made a great difference for me. But I was hiding the entire ordeal. Shame and fear are powerful deterrents to reach out for help. Disguised anger against onself revealed as we lash against others is also a deterrent to women seeking counseling. Most of us PAS counselors were trained to detect such "symptoms".



.That's interesting. The emotion of relief is not typically spoken of in these discussions. IMO, again, it is not openly discussed because of the stigmatism against the choice itself. But in the context of a one on one counseling, trust from the counselee is what prevails. The counselor is not there to establish judgement and cast stones. The counselor is there to facilitate and motivate the release from any pain and anger motivated feelings. And often, those are the result of how society responds to her choice. In most social circles, a woman expressing her relief feeling as a result from her choice to terminate her pregnancy is bound to face some responses meant to trigger guilt and shame on her. Those two become very manipulative tools for some. The goal not being to insure that she will preserve herself from any other unwanted pregnancy but to inflict punishment on her. It is extremely counter productive.


.This is why I wanted to hear some personal experience, not in search of vindication of my own beliefs, but genuinely wanting edification. I repeat that men are quite unequipped to know how a woman feels in this circumstance. It is already quite difficult for most men to connect and relate to the emotional complexitity of women let alone their successive hormonal changes. Like you, I tend to think that most men are not equipped to "walk in the shoes" of a rape victim facing a pregnancy as the result of that forceful intrusion. On the rape topic, recovered rape victims are usualy the people a rape victim will be referred to for mental and emotional help. Same way, PAS counselors have all experienced one or multiple abortions.

I will tell you one thing for sure: a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy recieves no validation of her person when she faces a crowd harassing her with the argument of " if you have an abortion, you kill your baby". Instead what she needs to hear and DESERVES to hear is this :" honey, you do not have to terminate that pregnancy and that for your own sake. Here is an alternative for you. I will be there for you and facilitate your willingness to bring a future child to life. We will find parents for this future child. You can contribute to the happiness of a couple unable to concieve. You can turn your circumstance into a contribution to someone else."

What you are doing here is validating her. You acknowlege that she has a choice to make. You also acknowlege her humanity and do not make her feel that her feelings are irrelevent. You offer alternatives yet will be commited to still be there for her whichever choice she makes. You are telling her : you are meaningful as a person, here and now. It is my deep conviction that women who face unwanted pregnancies are often neglicted as the existing person with difficult feelings and thoughts.

.My interest here was solely in the case of a raped pregnant woman, so I won't comment further on your general points about decision making regarding abortions. I will say that I wholeheartedly agree that doctors should not make decisions about procedures to be applied to patients (though they should not be forced to perform procedures that they are opposed to on ethical or medical grounds).

Thanks again for your response. IMO the majority of licensed physicians who uphold pro life convictions would not choose to practice in any field susceptible to require that they perform any elective abortion procedure. Note I specified "elective". OBGYNS may face situations where they have no choice but to complete a natural miscarriage with a D and C. It is an OBGYN in NC who encouraged me to undergo a D and C at the time I started bleeding at 9 weeks. His reasoning was not to perform an abortion but to insure that at the first symptoms of a possible miscarriage (cramping and bleeding), we would avoid any serious complications for me by letting it take its natural course. That was my second miscarriage at 9 weeks in 12 months.

All sorts of medical factors can come in play. If the woman has a low platelet level, allowing continuous bleeding can be fatal. The risk of infection is to be considered as some embryonic tissue can remain in the uterus as the result of an uncomplete miscarriage. Such physician has a duty to brief the patient on all the risks to occur if she decides to not have a D and C just in case there is a chance the bleeding and cramping can be stopped. Usualy, with a pelvic exam, any dilation of the cervix indicates an imminent miscarriage.

So, it is not all black and white out there.

[Alien]

what if your already pregnat with youre husbands child you both want , then your raped by some raper, should you then get an abortion because somehow bein pregnatn reminds you of bein raped.

JR

No of course not! Why would that remind a woman of the rape, particularly? The point is that she is carrying some scumbag's child against her will, not the simple fact of pregnancy, particularly a planned and desired pregnancy.

Rahab, this guy seems to have totally missed the point. Is my response correct, in your opinion?

[Alien]

So, it is not all black and white out there.

And if that doesn't sum it all up, I don't know what does.

I can't improve on anything you have said. So, unless some other angle emerges, I'm done here.

God bless you.

[jordanriver]

No of course not! Why would that remind a woman of the rape, particularly? The point is that she is carrying some scumbag's child against her will, not the simple fact of pregnancy, particularly a planned and desired pregnancy.

Rahab, this guy seems to have totally missed the point. Is my response correct, in your opinion?

in that case, if its really about having the offspring of some rapist, what if you have an UNDETECTED MISCARRIAGE, and dont say theres no such thing because there is, examplesundetectedmiscarriages (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=SUNA,SUNA:2005-45,SUNA:en&q=%22undetected+miscarriage%22+), 2ndexamplesundetectedmiscarriages (http://answers.yahoo.com/search/search_result;_ylt=AjeDlQxIGdAEKmpVQm8vocbpy6IX?p=undetected+miscarriage)

then you are raped, but you arent aware that the rapist impregnated you because you were already pregnant.
then when RAPIST JUNIOR is born and is OBVIOUSLY NOT the offspring of your husband and is OBVIOUSLY NOT the wanted child you had in mind......

.........is it too late to murder it.

Now dont say of course not because its already born.

because if you say that, then your excuse for keeping abortion legal just in case a rape occurs and a woman shouldnt have to carry the rapist's baby becomes INVALID. in that case , if you say you cant kill RAPIST JUNIOR because its born, then you show that:

IT WAS NEVER REALLY ABOUT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

and it was never really about having a baby from being raped.

you just wanted legal abortion no matter what.

JR

[Alien]

in that case, if its really about having the offspring of some rapist, what if you have an UNDETECTED MISCARRIAGE, and dont say theres no such thing because there is, examplesundetectedmiscarriages (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=SUNA,SUNA:2005-45,SUNA:en&q=%22undetected+miscarriage%22+), 2ndexamplesundetectedmiscarriages (http://answers.yahoo.com/search/search_result;_ylt=AjeDlQxIGdAEKmpVQm8vocbpy6IX?p=undetected+miscarriage)

then you are raped, but you arent aware that the rapist impregnated you because you were already pregnant.
then when RAPIST JUNIOR is born and is OBVIOUSLY NOT the offspring of your husband and is OBVIOUSLY NOT the wanted child you had in mind......

.........is it too late to murder it.

Now dont say of course not because its already born.

because if you say that, then your excuse for keeping abortion legal just in case a rape occurs and a woman shouldnt have to carry the rapist's baby becomes INVALID. in that case , if you say you cant kill RAPIST JUNIOR because its born, then you show that:

IT WAS NEVER REALLY ABOUT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

and it was never really about having a baby from being raped.

you just wanted legal abortion no matter what.

JR

Wow. Shall I try to disentangle this mess of illogic? I'll try, though something tells me I'll regret it.

Your case seems to rest on the possibility that the raped woman might not be sure who caused the pregnancy. You could have made that point more simply by referring to the case where the woman was having unprotected sex with her husband in an attempt to get pregnant, rather than going off into undetected miscarriages (which I don't dispute, incidentally).

OK, so this could sometimes occur. It would alter the the way she thought about the pregnancy I imagine, given that she couldn't be sure who the father was, perhaps not even after the birth. So what? Maybe that would make her less likely to abort. Who knows? In any case, the number of cases where this doesn't apply (women who are not having sex with anyone else, or using contraceptives) far outnumber those where it does.

Your suggestion that I have to support the murder of a new born child if I also support giving a raped woman the right to an (early term) abortion is nonsense. It depends on your own assertion that a fertilized ovum is equivalent to a baby, and I support no such assertion. The rest of your argument falls apart on that point, I think.

I should probably find your accusation that I have "cooked up" this whole thing in order to support abortion in general and was insincere, even lying, about my motivations, offensive. I don't, because it really isn't worth it to get offended by what people post on the Internet. Have a look at the typical Locker Room thread to see how exercised some people get over this. Instead, I'll put it down to an excess of zeal on your part and simply forgive you.

Look, I generally refuse to participate in discussions about abortion for two reasons. The first is that I don't have fully formed opinions about it. The second is that the debate (in this country at least) is now so polarized that no one will ever change their mind or consider any kind of compromise, so it's all a waste of time anyway. I responded to this thread because I do feel strongly about the case of pregnancy following rape. Nevertheless, my feelings about debating abortion in general, stand.

So forgive me, but this will be my last response to you here. You may have the last word, and consider that your devastating logic has beaten me if you wish.

[Camasjune]

I had a baby as the result of rape. Even though it was a most inopportune time to be pregnant, abortion never crossed my mind. To me, the rape and pregnancy were two different things entirely. Baby Emily died of SIDS at 9 weeks old and brought many blessings in her very short life. She is not loved any less than any of my other children.

I voted for only if pregnancy would result in the death of the mother and baby. DUH! Abortion always results in a dead baby! As for the absolute death of the mother, neither I nor my OB can think of any medical circumstances where that applies. Having a cesearean is far less violent and physically traumatic than an abortion. I've met women who postponed their chemo and radiation until after their baby was born and still had full cancer recovery. It's ONLY nine months out of your entire life, not the end of the world!