Roman Colliseum

[dizzle]

I am very interested in Roman history, as bandecoot knows, having a long discussion with me on the history of Roman cement which I found fascinating.

Anyhows I just saw a special that included a discussion of the Colliseum. Wow. Anyways it said that actual naval battles were recreated in the Colliseum with the ground level being flooded. Anyone ever hear of this? They had a crazy dude that actually crawled down into the ancient plumbing and found evidence of waterways to do this, including the plumbing for Nero's palacial lake which was formerly on this exact site.

[TuckEverlasting]

I am very interested in Roman history, as bandecoot knows, having a long discussion with me on the history of Roman cement which I found fascinating.

Anyhows I just saw a special that included a discussion of the Colliseum. Wow. Anyways it said that actual naval battles were recreated in the Colliseum with the ground level being flooded. Anyone ever hear of this? They had a crazy dude that actually crawled down into the ancient plumbing and found evidence of waterways to do this, including the plumbing for Nero's palacial lake which was formerly on this exact site.
Yeah, I've heard of that before. :cool:

[The Curtmudgeon]

I am very interested in Roman history, as bandecoot knows, having a long discussion with me on the history of Roman cement which I found fascinating.

Anyhows I just saw a special that included a discussion of the Colliseum. Wow. Anyways it said that actual naval battles were recreated in the Colliseum with the ground level being flooded. Anyone ever hear of this? They had a crazy dude that actually crawled down into the ancient plumbing and found evidence of waterways to do this, including the plumbing for Nero's palacial lake which was formerly on this exact site.

Yes, it was in at least some of the Roman historians, either Tacitus or Suetonius, I forget which (maybe both).

I've played naval wargames before which required a whole floor instead of a table, and I've got friends who wargamed a battle that required a full-size basketball court in a gym to lay it out, but playing naval wargames in the Colosseum would be ... extravagant. Not to mention, wet.

The (they should have added sharks for realism) Curtmudgeon

[bandecoot]

I am very interested in Roman history, as bandecoot knows, having a long discussion with me on the history of Roman cement which I found fascinating.

Anyhows I just saw a special that included a discussion of the Colliseum. Wow. Anyways it said that actual naval battles were recreated in the Colliseum with the ground level being flooded. Anyone ever hear of this? They had a crazy dude that actually crawled down into the ancient plumbing and found evidence of waterways to do this, including the plumbing for Nero's palacial lake which was formerly on this exact site.


Yep see here for more details.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Amphitheatrum.html

You only have to ask.

[bandecoot]

Yes, it was in at least some of the Roman historians, either Tacitus or Suetonius, I forget which (maybe both).

I've played naval wargames before which required a whole floor instead of a table, and I've got friends who wargamed a battle that required a full-size basketball court in a gym to lay it out, but playing naval wargames in the Colosseum would be ... extravagant. Not to mention, wet.

The (they should have added sharks for realism) Curtmudgeon


Try Cassius Dio.

[Hail Mary]

Try Cassius Dio.

This was a gem of information, thanks! Here's a googled link:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/66*.html

Cassius Dio is speaking of Titus and the hunting-theatre is the Colosseum:

25 Most that he did was not characterized by anything noteworthy, but in dedicating the hunting-theatre and the baths that bear his name he produced many remarkable spectacles. There was a battle between cranes and also between four elephants; animals both tame and wild were slain to the number of nine thousand; and women (not those of any prominence, however) took part in despatching them. As for the men, several fought in single combat and several groups contended together both in infantry and naval battles. For Titus suddenly filled this same theatre with water and brought in horses and bulls and some other domesticated animals that had been taught to behave in the liquid element just as on land. He also brought in people on ships, who engaged in a sea-fight there, impersonating the Corcyreans and Corinthians; and others gave a similar exhibition outside the city in the grove of Gaius and Lucius, a place which Augustus had once excavated for this very purpose.

[!Fluffy!]

I am very interested in Roman history, as bandecoot knows, having a long discussion with me on the history of Roman cement which I found fascinating.

Anyhows I just saw a special that included a discussion of the Colliseum. Wow. Anyways it said that actual naval battles were recreated in the Colliseum with the ground level being flooded. Anyone ever hear of this? They had a crazy dude that actually crawled down into the ancient plumbing and found evidence of waterways to do this, including the plumbing for Nero's palacial lake which was formerly on this exact site.

Yeah, the naumachiae; there was a Colosseum naval battle scene in one of the old blockbuster movies about the Roman Empire but I can't remember which one.

Here's a naumachiae link at Great Buildings Online: http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/glk?http://www.the-colosseum.net/idx-en.htm

[dizzle]

Thank you everyone for the information and the links!

I am watching a history channel special right now on the collosium, it said that the naval reenactments only happened during the first year of the reign of Titus.

It is amazing how brutal these people were. Yet creepy really on how the same we all are.

[Lizard]

I saw a special on the Colliseum. It said the same thing.

It also said that it was believed that Vespasian financed the Colliseum from the plunder of Jerusalem.

[bandecoot]

Thank you everyone for the information and the links!

I am watching a history channel special right now on the collosium, it said that the naval reenactments only happened during the first year of the reign of Titus.

It is amazing how brutal these people were. Yet creepy really on how the same we all are.


Not Brutal, callous would be a better word. We tend to have a lot more machinery protecting us from certain facts. Like the origin of meat products.
Really fresh poultry(alive at purchase) might make you a little squeamish for example.

In 100 BC Gaius Marius reformed the legions, dropping the property requirement and offering a livable wage for being Virs mils. This allowed the lowest class of romans, the Head Count to serve in the legions.

By the time of Titus this was commonplace so a roman male in his mid 30's might have killed 15 -20 people serving in the legions. Not at a distance but hand to hand. That would make them indifferent to the deaths of others, to a degree.

This was also coupled with the concept of ownership of humans. Further callousing the view of humanity in general. But those slaves essentially were the infra structure of a house, they fetched water, washed clothes took care of babies, served as a pepper grinder(no I am not joking) fetched in wood, worked in warehouses and farms. Served on labour gangs that maintained the aqueducts and sewers. They were important, but had no rights. They could be crucifed at the will of the master of the house or even his wife.
(I have a private heresy that slavery only becomes morally repugnant when a machine can do the work, quicker and cheaper)

There are 2 rules to remember about history:

The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.

Human did things then for the same reasons we do them now.

Thus you get the idea that the ancients did what they did for reasons we can understand, even if the manner in which they do them is strange to us now.

[bandecoot]

I saw a special on the Colliseum. It said the same thing.

It also said that it was believed that Vespasian financed the Colliseum from the plunder of Jerusalem.


Plunder? Hardly, plunder implies they had no right to it. Think of it as payment to the SPQR for having to send an army to put down a rebellious flyspeck province.
I assure you thats how they looked at it. Judea had a chance to live under Pax Romana, they flaunted it. Consequences followed. Besides Jerusalem had no need of wealth, its inhabitant either dead or fled or deported. Someone may as well make use of the money, why not the people of Rome?


Sorry faramir, but when you lead with your chin.......:grin:

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

OK, so it was plunder then bande? :teeth:

[bandecoot]

OK, so it was plunder then bande? :teeth:


Plunder is such a harsh term, and implies that the SPQR had no right to take it, well take it they did so they had the right. Call it compensation for annoyances.

[dizzle]

Bande, and I noted how the same we all are, capable of the same brutality (and I still call it brutality) - only we have television so we don't have to kill real people for our entertainment. We can just pretend.

[bandecoot]

Bande, and I noted how the same we all are, capable of the same brutality (and I still call it brutality) - only we have television so we don't have to kill real people for our entertainment. We can just pretend.

Possibly, but virtual killing is understood. I am not of the opinion that anyone is being hurt when I chainsaw monsters in doom3.

As for television, most shows I watch for entertainment are either cathartic or involve a willing suspenion of disbelief.

I consider the Law and Order Franchise in the first kind. Conflict leads to death or injury, there is a resolution and justice is served. You Know before you even watch what the basicstoryline is going to be. How it is resolved is what motivates you to watch.

The second kind, you know well, Buffy, Xena, Charmed..all involve a fantasy world that requires us to suspend disbelief, if you cant then you would find the shows laugahable( yes I include Xena, Its amazing how the Ancient Greeks look so much like Maoris so often)


The ancients DID kill people quite often. That does change a person.

The merciful method of execution was one that brings outrage nowdays, decapitation. The object lesson one I am sure you are familiar with.

The head of a household had the absolute right to have killed anyone in his family, A Paterfamilias might have been a loved father, but he was also feared.

In his History of the Jews Tacitus criticises the jews for NOT practicing exposeure!

Imagine a nation run by Mafia families. They cooperate but only in groups so that noone gets too greedy. They get together to beat up smaller nations and shake them down for cash, in the form of tribute and offer protection from outsiders. If the tribute was not paid or the nation was acting out of Romes interest ...You get wars.

Its not a great analogy, but its popular enough that most can grasp how Rome functioned.

[HerodionRomulus]

I am very interested in Roman history, as bandecoot knows, having a long discussion with me on the history of Roman cement which I found fascinating.

Anyhows I just saw a special that included a discussion of the Colliseum. Wow. Anyways it said that actual naval battles were recreated in the Colliseum with the ground level being flooded. Anyone ever hear of this? They had a crazy dude that actually crawled down into the ancient plumbing and found evidence of waterways to do this, including the plumbing for Nero's palacial lake which was formerly on this exact site.

Yes, naval battles were done, though not often due to the expense and logistics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naumachia