Question on Total Depravity - For moderators only

[Bill the Cat]

Since I don't want the usual bevvy of troll and flaming responses, I am posing this thread in the ITT forum. Any responses by non-moderators will be deleted. Hopefully this thread will be a good example for the masses on how to debate this issue without the usual insults and flaming.


So, with that out of the way... on to the question. I asked this of Faramir and his answer was rather interesting, so I thought maybe I could bring this out here so all can see but few can respond:


Romans 2

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


How can the Gentiles instinctively do the Law if they are reprobate and non-elect? Is not the Law of God?

Thanks
Bill

[Xavier]

How can the Gentiles instinctively do the Law if they are reprobate and non-elect? Is not the Law of God?

I suppose my first question would be: Why do you consider the Gentiles that instinctively do the Law as reprobate and non-elect? Wouldn't the fact that they were following the Law be a sign of the regeneration?

Yours,
Xavier

[Bill the Cat]

I suppose my first question would be: Why do you consider the Gentiles that instinctively do the Law as reprobate and non-elect? Wouldn't the fact that they were following the Law be a sign of the regeneration?

Yours,
Xavier

Strictly by them being Gentiles shows that they were not elect. The Law was not given to the Gentiles, and thus they were not the covenant elect. Plus, instinctively, Greek phusis, means

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5449&version=nas

the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts

So how can they do the things of the Law by nature?

[Bill the Cat]

:bump:

[Shadow Phoenix]

I like what C.S. Lewis said. If man was totally depraved, he would be so totally depraved, he would not realize he was totally depraved.

I hold that we love because he first loved us. I also hold that we cannot save ourselves. I do believe in depravity of course, but as to how far I am undecided.

[Sheepdog]

of the Ten Commandments, only one speaks to motives. Thou shalt not covet. the other nine are about actions. most of the Mosaic law, as far as i'm aware, is like that: the Law doesn't care why you stole the ox, just that you pay back 5 fold.

that's the difference between simple doing the Law and abiding in it. and really, it's the difference between Jesus and the Pharisees. the Pharisees made silly little rules to make sure you didn't even come close to breaking the Law. Jesus said "you heard that..." but if your heart is vindicitive, lustful, etc., you may as well have murdered, committed adultry, etc.

this is where inability comes in. really, inability and depravity are two sides of the same coin, but inability is Scriptural language ("Apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5; "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:8). in particulars, people can obey laws here and there, but apart from Christ no one can please God. apart from Christ your works are like filthy rags. it's God that makes them white as snow.

[Sheepdog]

I like what C.S. Lewis said. If man was totally depraved, he would be so totally depraved, he would not realize he was totally depraved.

:hehe:


i forgot to add, total depravity, historically framed, does not teach that man is as bad as he can be (that would be utter depravity, and in such a case Bill's Romans passage is a sound refutation). the idea is that the taint of sin is thourough and stains all of the unbeliever's works.

[jason]

How can the Gentiles instinctively do the Law if they are reprobate and non-elect? Is not the Law of God?
On a slightly different tack I would offer that the Jew's have a Natural Law tradition of a law handed down to Noah, this is called the [uel=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws]Noahide Laws. [/url]. These are ones that people are expected to keep and know, well instinctivly is the wrong word, but these are the ones written on the heart, the deep conscience, that they can work out from observing the world and from listening to conscience.

And besides, isn't the Stoic's Natural Law and Aristotle's First Principles of Practical Reason, evidence that pagans outside of the covenant can know something of the law, something of right and wrong, that they are to pursue the right and avoid the wrong ?

Also Total Depravity referes to man being corrupted everywhere, not that he is as bad as he can be. It goes against Thomas Aquinas' idea that the reason is not as fallen as the passions.

Jason

[Bill the Cat]

:hehe:


i forgot to add, total depravity, historically framed, does not teach that man is as bad as he can be (that would be utter depravity, and in such a case Bill's Romans passage is a sound refutation). the idea is that the taint of sin is thourough and stains all of the unbeliever's works.
I am referring to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (ed. F.L. Cross, rev. ed., 1983, p. 1387) - which defines Total Depravity as

. . . the extreme wretchedness of man's condition as the result of the Fall. It emphasizes the belief that this result was not a mere loss or deprivation of a supernatural endowment possessed by unfallen man, but a radical corruption or deprivation of his whole nature, so that apart from Christ he can do nothing whatever pleasing to God. Even his reason has been radically vitiated, so that acc. to Calvinism, all natural knowledge of God (such as one obtains in the system of St. Thomas Aquinas) is held to be impossible.

If man can instinctively, or by nature, do the things of the law, then he is not totally depraved by this verse in Romans, and he does have a measure of knowledge of God in his heart. So, how can the definition be correct if the law is written on the gentiles heart from whom the law was not given?

[Sheepdog]

I am referring to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (ed. F.L. Cross, rev. ed., 1983, p. 1387) - which defines Total Depravity as

. . . the extreme wretchedness of man's condition as the result of the Fall. It emphasizes the belief that this result was not a mere loss or deprivation of a supernatural endowment possessed by unfallen man, but a radical corruption or deprivation of his whole nature, so that apart from Christ he can do nothing whatever pleasing to God. Even his reason has been radically vitiated, so that acc. to Calvinism, all natural knowledge of God (such as one obtains in the system of St. Thomas Aquinas) is held to be impossible.

If man can instinctively, or by nature, do the things of the law, then he is not totally depraved by this verse in Romans, and he does have a measure of knowledge of God in his heart. So, how can the definition be correct if the law is written on the gentiles heart from whom the law was not given?

honestly? i think you are conflating doing the things of natural law with pleasing God, which i argue are seperate issues entirely. does Romans 2:14 contradict Romans 8:8? of course not.


aside, i question the soundness of the Oxford definition on one small point: natural knowledge of God is by no means impossible, even in Reformed theology. Calvin himself strongly argued for natural theology... he denied that it was sufficient for salvation.

[lee_merrill]

If man can instinctively, or by nature, do the things of the law...
Erm, "by nature" might be the new nature! (2 Pt. 1:4). And in the previous verse, we read:

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

This would indicate these Gentiles will be declared righteous, if their obedience matches what is in view here, and this is salvation, which only comes through Christ.

Otherwise (and this is my main objection to refusing total depravity) righteousness could have come through the law, and Christ died needlessly (Gal. 2:21).

Blessings,
Lee