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  • Death

    Let’s talk about death. Religions have always tried to explain the nature of life and death but I think, on the whole, they do it very badly indeed for a modern audience. The old explanations promoted by religions are no longer convincing. The root of the problem is in a misunderstanding of what a human being is and what life in general is; something that modern science has been shedding considerable light on for a couple of centuries already. Do religions take any notice? Not really.

    At a fundamental level, religion is not interested in people or people’s welfare at all. What it is interested in is its own survival and it does that by promoting the interests of the God above everything else and convincing ‘the faithful’ even to abandon all other priorities including their own families and their own intellect. Ironically, the name it gives to the destruction of the human being is “salvation”.

    This is an example of what I mean:

    “[Do animals have souls like human beings?

    A lot of what follows is shameful infantile drivel from Catholic Answers.


    Animals have souls--and so do plants. Does this answer sound like something out of the New Age movement? Don't worry--it isn't. Rest assured we're not saying animals and plants have souls like ours.
    The soul is the principle of life. Since animals and plants are living things, they have souls, but not in the sense in which human beings have souls. Our souls are rational--theirs aren't--and ours are rational because they're spiritual, not material.
    Animals and plants can't do anything which transcends the limitations of matter. Although some animals seem clever, they don't actually possess conceptional intelligence. They can't, for instance, conceive of the abstract notion of justice.
    Animals and plants also lack a moral sense. When you scold Spot for chewing the carpet and tell him what he did was "wrong," you aren't assigning guilt of sin to him, since he can't commit a sin.
    Animal and vegetable souls are dependent entirely on matter for their operation and being. They cease to exist at death. (There's no "doggie heaven.")
    Human souls, by contrast, aren't material. They're spiritual. Only a spirit can know and love, a spirit's two chief faculties being the intellect (which knows) and the will (which loves). We know human souls are spiritual since humans can know and love.
    We also know human souls are immortal because spirits can't decompose. They have no parts: Only a thing with parts can fall apart. A spirit is a unit. It has no top or bottom, no left or right, no inside or outside.
    Every bit of matter, even the smallest, has parts. The human body can decompose--it's made of matter, after all--but the human soul can't. That's why we say it's immortal.
    A good discussion of the differences between human beings and animals is available in Mortimer Adler's The Difference of Man and the Difference it Makes
    .]”
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

  • #2
    Trying to work out how they square that with the comment by Christ that "not a sparrow falls apart from the Father". I'll take on advisement the possibility that animals can't sin - but the rest is seemingly pulled out of thin air.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #3
      First Floor, you need to get a new hobby. Perhaps something where you don't seem so entirely stupid...
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        Let’s talk about death.
        Yes let's do. On that long, lonely dark night when you are drawing your last breaths and the memories of your sins engulf your mind like the billows of a great funeral pyre from where will your solace come FF as it dawns on you with certainty that you will face a Holy God?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          First Floor, you need to get a new hobby. Perhaps something where you don't seem so entirely stupid...
          Which bit are you having difficulty with? We need to get the fundamentals right.

          A proper understanding of death will help you visualise your relationship to the society and culture as a whole. It is the culture that is immortal, not the individual person.

          “When You Go Home
          Tell Them Of Us
          And Say
          "For Your Tomorrow,
          We Gave Our Today””

          If religion in its essence is a transcendental representation of the powers of society, then, Durkheim argued, the disappearance of traditional religion need not herald the dissolution of society. All that is required is for modern men now to realize directly that dependence on society which before they had recognized only through the medium of religious representations. "We must discover the rational substitutes for these religious notions that for a long time have served as the vehicle for the most essential moral ideas." Society is the father of us all; therefore, it is to society we owe that profound debt of gratitude heretofore paid to the gods. The following passage, which in its rhetoric is rather uncharacteristic of Durkheim's usual analytical style, reveals some of his innermost feelings:

          Society is not at all the illogical or a-logical, incoherent and fantastic being which has too often been considered. Quite on the contrary, the collective consciousness is the highest form of psychic life, since it is the consciousness of consciousness. Being placed outside of and above individual and local contingencies, it sees things only in their permanent and essential aspects, which it crystallizes into communicable ideas. At the same time that it sees from above, it sees farther; at every moment of time it embraces all known reality; that is why it alone can furnish the minds with the moulds which are applicable to the totality of things and which make it possible to think of them.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            Religions have always tried to explain the nature of life and death but I think, on the whole, they do it very badly indeed for a modern audience. The old explanations promoted by religions are no longer convincing. The root of the problem is in a misunderstanding of what a human being is and what life in general is; something that modern science has been shedding considerable light on for a couple of centuries already.
            That makes sense. Too many people are claiming life-after-death experiences of going to heaven (one ironically with the name Malarkey), when they are actually experiencing nothing more than what would happen with a sudden loss of blood pressure. The definition of "death" needs revision from what our ancestors had thought. But we may find out there isn't a clear definition of what death is, or the exact moment, if there even is an exactm moment, when it takes place.


            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

            At a fundamental level, religion is not interested in people or people’s welfare at all. What it is interested in is its own survival and it does that by promoting the interests of the God above everything else and convincing ‘the faithful’ even to abandon all other priorities including their own families and their own intellect.
            I would not say "at all". Many religious people, whether Christian or not, are definitely motivated solely by selfish interests. But many religions, not just the Christian faith, humanism or atheism, strongly support the well-being of others. Christians and Jews are commanded to...

            ...love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deuteronomy 6:5, NASB. Also 11:1, 13, 22; 13:3; 19:9; 30:6,16 and elsewhere)
            Yes, we are to promote the interests of our God above all else, but that is not exclusive, as Jesus taught the scribe:


            One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:28-31, NASB)
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            Ironically, the name it gives to the destruction of the human being is “salvation”.
            On this I strongly disagree. It is just the opposite.

            "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS." (Matt 16:26-27, NASB)
            But granted, there must be a degree of self-denial (Luke 9:23), dying daily (1 Corintians 15:31), presenting ourselves a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1), and losing one's life sor the sake of Christ and of the Gospel. (Mark 8:35) This includes the many who have given up a life of comfort to go into lands of plague and disease to proclaim the Gospel and improve the lives of many. It also includes the many who have been beheaded or drowned because they refused to disown their master. Or the many who have faced imprisonment and murder at the hands of atheistic communist regimes.

            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            This is an example of what I mean:

            “[Do animals have souls like human beings?

            A lot of what follows is shameful infantile drivel from Catholic Answers.


            [I]Animals have souls--and so do plants.
            As for shameful drivel, it isn't my intent to put down the Catholic Church, although I have strong differences with much of their teachings. If I understand the Hebrew nephesh to mean living, breathing, conscious organisms, or whose life is in the blood (Deuteronomy 12:23), then I would include animals, who have a consciousness, as well as fetuses no more than a few weeks from conception. I would definitely exclude plants, bacteria and viruses from that definition.

            Animals cannot sin against God, if for no other reason, that they have no commandmants do disobey. Some animals express emotions such as love and happiness, even selfishness, hate and jealousy. Predatory animals like Cecil act purely out of instinct. As humans, we can instruct our pets and give them our commandments, and teach them the consequences if they "sin" against us. Dogs definitely feel guilt. Dogs also know how to "know and love." Ask mine. Cats may be another story.


            Originally posted by Catholic Answers
            Animal and vegetable souls are dependent entirely on matter for their operation and being. They cease to exist at death.
            I wouldn't suggest that vegetarians start eating dirt and rocks. I would go further and ask Catholic Answers if bacteria and viruses have souls. Should we quit taking antibiotics?

            Humans are different in that they are rational (although sometimes that may seem questionable). I would tend to think that a human soul is eternal because God keeps it alive, not because we can know or express love, not because the spirit is a unit.
            Last edited by Faber; 08-22-2015, 12:14 PM.
            When I Survey....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Yes let's do. On that long, lonely dark night when you are drawing your last breaths and the memories of your sins engulf your mind like the billows of a great funeral pyre from where will your solace come FF as it dawns on you with certainty that you will face a Holy God?
              I suspect that you are rather more anxious about your own death than I am about mine. I hope that dying is much like falling asleep. I hope that the struggle for life at the end is not too exhausting or painful. What I do know is that I will not survive death in any form. I will not be judged except that I and the people around me judge me while I am alive, while for you judgement occurs in the afterlife; and your loyalty and duty is misplaced to that extent.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Yes let's do. On that long, lonely dark night when you are drawing your last breaths and the memories of your sins engulf your mind like the billows of a great funeral pyre from where will your solace come FF as it dawns on you with certainty that you will face a Holy God?
                Why on earth would anyone 'Amen' this rubbish? FF is no more likely to become certain of meeting your god than you are to become certain of being devoured by Apep or flayed by Xipe Totec. When are you going to learn that to non-believers your religion has no precedence over the others?
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  I suspect that you are rather more anxious about your own death than I am about mine.
                  We will see, or rather you will see...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    We will see, or rather you will see...
                    And so will you, or maybe not. The thing is, seer, nobody comes back from the dead to tell us. The old myths and religions poison your mind so that you no longer accept the evidence of your own senses. The holy book is somehow more real than reality.

                    On a positive note, I would like to assure you that whatever happens, you will not be disappointed.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      I suspect that you are rather more anxious about your own death than I am about mine. I hope that dying is much like falling asleep. I hope that the struggle for life at the end is not too exhausting or painful. What I do know is that I will not survive death in any form. I will not be judged except that I and the people around me judge me while I am alive, while for you judgement occurs in the afterlife; and your loyalty and duty is misplaced to that extent.
                      I look at it like this: if dying is like falling asleep, then we have no reason to be afraid. The oft-used canard that religion is motivated by fear of death just doesn't make sense.

                      If death, however, involves a judgement, I think we should be afraid. I've done things I'm not proud of, as I think most of us have. Having to answer for them isn't going to be pleasant.

                      On the other hand, I think there is a possibility for life after death on naturalism.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        Which bit are you having difficulty with?
                        No difficulty. Your comment is stupid. If you need it explained to you after your inane first sentence of the second paragraph, then you are well beyond any assistance I can offer...
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          No difficulty. Your comment is stupid. If you need it explained to you after your inane first sentence of the second paragraph, then you are well beyond any assistance I can offer...
                          Ah! Tracie Harris will explain all (if you are interested):
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwp-sD_CZOA
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            We will see, or rather you will see...
                            BTW, “… the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.." - CS Lewis – a man who does not know what he is.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              Ah! Tracie Harris will explain all (if you are interested):
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwp-sD_CZOA
                              How she can speak in a group called "reason" and be so idiotically wrong is simply stunning...

                              9351_original.gif
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment

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