View Full Version : Fullness of the gentiles -- a question for orthodox preterists
August 3rd 2003, 05:31 PM
Orthodox preterist Christians only, please!!
I have a quick question....orthodox preterism is the only position that makes the most sense of all of scripture, from what I've seen so far.
This morning in church we read a passage that caused me to ponder how it fits into the preterist paradigm.
The passage is Romans 11:25-27:
For I do not want you, bretheren, to be uninformed of this mystery -- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation -- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENENT WITH THEM WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Can anyone help me with this? Dee Dee?
August 3rd 2003, 10:35 PM
There was a time of the Jews. they had a special relationship with God as it was God's plan to bring Messiah to earth through Israel. All history up to the first century pointed toward the day Christ would come. For reasonsknown only to god the majority of Jews living at the time rejected Jesus as Messiah and wound up victims of the Destruction. Since Messiah has come there is no need for a specific earthly nation, in fact Pete has declared the church to be the 'holy nation' comprised of all nationalities and races. this situation is to last untl the 'fullness of the gentiles'. Thats is another way of saying the end of time. We know from the NT that the old system and its hardware of temples and sacrfices were 'types and shadows' of the real eternal and spiritual thing God had planned. which of course is the church Jesus started. Something God never does is go backward. There is no returning to 'types and shadows'. And sad as it may be some of Abe's blood will always remain in sin rejecting Christ, the passage quoted seems to indicated a majority. Still individual jews will as always convert, and will be saved by doing so. This is what is described in the verses just prior to those quoted. thus Christ's word is fulfilled
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
August 4th 2003, 01:29 AM
Well there are three camps I am aware of on this passage that many OP's (orthodox Preterist) fall into:
1. all of a "Israel" will be converted to Christianity, by the work of the gospel. This view is mostly held by the Posymill. variation of OP's because it fits so well with the Post mill view of end times. With the sucess of the gospel going out.
2.All "Israel" is saved by the end of time, or all those who are OF Israel, come to Christ. I.E. The Christians are the "Israel" that includes the Jews and Gentiles.
3. All of the Israelites-Jews through out history who are saved are Israel. So from Paul to all the Jews who put their faith in Christ throughout all the centeries.
Hope that helps. <>< :smile:
Dee Dee Warren
August 4th 2003, 05:23 AM
Studyhound has summarized it well. There is a wide plethora of views on this. I hold pretty solidly to option 1. It is not an easy passage.
All who are truly Israel will be saved.
August 4th 2003, 04:56 PM
The Jews who had formerly been counted as God’s chosen people had been largely cast off (“broken off”) because of their rejection of Christ, i.e., unbelief. And the Gentiles, who formerly had no special standing in God’s scheme, were now the one’s who had a right standing before God. Apparently, there were some of the Gentile Christians who supposed that this meant that God had now cast aside all the Jews (as He had in old times cast aside the Gentiles), and that the Gentiles had now taken the position that the Jews had previously enjoyed. In other words, in past times the Jews held a special place before God simply by virtue of physical birth. So the Gentiles reasoned, if we are saved now and the Jews are lost, it must be because we are Gentiles by birth. In Rom. 11 Paul dismisses this idea altogether. The Jews had not been “broken off” because of their “Jewishness;” nor had these Gentiles been “grafted in” because of their “Gentileness.” Today, under the new covenant, they are counted as God’s people- spiritual Israel- who believe. For those Jews who had been “broken off,” it had happened to them because of their unbelief. By turning from their unbelief, they could be “grafted in again.” This was and is an on-going process. Every time a sinner- whether Jew or Gentile (Rom. 1:16)- comes to God in faith, he is “grafted in” and will be saved if he continues in faith.
Paul’s point in this section was to show the Gentile Christians that the unbelieving Jews had been broken off, and they themselves had been “grafted in” among the believing Jews into Christ. He warns them not to be lifted up with pride because just as the Jews lost their blessing because of unbelief, the same could happen to them. Likewise, just as God had “grafted in” these Gentiles on the basis of faith, He can just as easily “graft in again” those unbelieving Jews if they turn from their unbelief.
In verse 25, Paul says that “a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” I’m not certain whether “partial” is intended to modify “hardening” or to modify “Israel.” If it relates to “hardening,” then Paul is speaking of a “partial hardening” of unbelieving Jews, and this hardening will become “complete” when the “fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” On the other hand, if “partial” modifies “Israel,” then Paul is saying that part of Israel was hardened against the gospel because they continued to reject God’s offer of salvation in the gospel. Because of their hardness, the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. The word “until” (v25) does not always carry the idea of duration or termination, and I don’t think that’s how it is used here either. Perhaps a few examples will illustrate this point: In Gen. 46:34, Moses said that Joseph’s brethren were keepers of sheep “until now.” Does “until” in that passage mean that afterward they would not be keeping the sheep? In Acts 23:1, Paul said that he had lived in all good conscience “until this day.” Does this mean that from this point forward Paul did not have a good conscience? In Rom. 5:13, he says that “until the law sin was in the world.” Does that mean that after the law came, sin was no longer in the world? In Rom. 8:22 Paul says that “the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.” Does that mean that it stopped as soon as Paul wrote those words? With respect to “the fullness of the Gentiles,” I would suggest that this has nothing to do either with “the fullness of time” or with a “full number.” In verse 12, Paul used the word “fullness” to denote the state of blessedness, and I believe that is how Paul is using that word verse 25 as well. The idea of “the fullness of the Gentiles” is the blessed state of the Gentiles who have believed and obeyed the gospel.
In verse 26, Paul continues, “and so all Israel will be saved.” The word “so” is an adverb of manner, and in this place it means, “in this manner, under these circumstances.” In what manner or circumstances? Is this saying that God is going to at some time in the future interpose and save every Jew of a future generation (against their will)? If so this would violate the very gospel that Paul was preaching, and would violate the main premise of the book of Romans (Rom. 1:16). The apostles taught that both Jews and Gentiles are saved in the exact same way (Acts 15:9,11). If the Jews turn to Christ in faith, they will be saved (Rom. 11:23). Every Jew will be saved in this way. In fact, every Gentile will be saved in this way as well. You will not find a single Jew or a single Gentile who is not saved in this way.
Concerning verses 28-29, Paul is saying that from the stand-point of the gospel, the unbelieving “broken off” Jews are “enemies.” However, from the stand-point of God’s original choice of Abraham and his descendants, God still welcomes them- for the sake of their fathers. That is, even though they are presently in a lost condition, God is waiting with open arms to accept them back in if they will come in faith. Furthermore, even though the vast majority of Jews are “enemies” of God because of their unbelief, He does not count their rejection as a failure on His part, nor is He ashamed of His gifts to and calling of the Jews in the past. They can still be beloved in Him by becoming obedient to the gospel which was preached to all nations (Mk. 16:15) and is God’s power for salvation to both Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 1:16).
August 4th 2003, 06:04 PM
I guess my confusion stems from Paul using the term "Israel" twice in a row as though talking about the same group of people, yet on the other hand, seems to depict two different groups. We all know that there is only one way to be saved, so the 2nd use of the term "Israel" must refer to born again believers -- on the other hand, it seems that the first use of the term "Israel" is referring to Jews since it is contrasted with gentiles. That is where my confusion lies, as it seems to be implying (using old testament prophecy as well) that all Jews will be saved after the fullness of the gentiles has come in.
It seems as though the gentile believers were feeling quite smug -- as though they were now God's chosen people instead of the Jews, whereas Paul was telling them, "not so fast, they are partially hardened to the gospel for your benefit, but someday that will end and they will all be saved in the same manner that you were." This does make sense if it means that all Jews will eventually become believers, so I think I'm going to go with that for now.
I thank you all for taking the time to reply, I learned a lot.
August 4th 2003, 06:14 PM
Paul is not talking about two Israels but about one Israel, some of whom were unbelievers and had been cast aside, and others who believed and were accepted in the Lord. The unbelieving Jews could still be saved, of course, by turning to God in faith. "And so" (i.e., in this manner, by turning to God in faith) "all Israel shall be saved." This is not meant as a statement of salvation of all Jews, but an exclamation of the power of the gospel of Christ. All Israel (and for that matter, all Gentiles as well) can be saved... by turning to God in faithful obedience.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.