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Abortion and the Libertarian Conscience

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  • Abortion and the Libertarian Conscience

    Hola all.... some of you curious what I have been up to besides the book since leaving TWeb, here is a piece just published on Independent Political Report. I didn't know whether to put it here or in Poli Sci, but figured here was appropriate.

    http://www.independentpoliticalrepor...an-conscience/

    SUMMARY: Few things divide Libertarians more than the question of abortion. Each perspective can argue presumably sound libertarian reasons for their position. For many Libertarians, it can come down to a nearly irresolvable conflict of competing rights i.e., the right to life and the right to liberty/bodily autonomy. The Libertarian Party Platform (2014) appears to strive to allow both views (and the myriad spectrum between) full voice and participation, but in fact, it requires that pro-life Libertarians (and partially pro-choice Libertarians) give up their good faith convictions already granted by the Platform in order to accept it. In fact, only a minority of present Libertarians can give full-throated and unwavering consent without misgivings or discomfort.
    See link for full article
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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  • #2
    IMO every Christian is already a kind of libertarian, though of course not every libertarian is Christian. And not every Christian is pro-life, I think? But I guess more Christians are pro-life than pro-choice.
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
      IMO every Christian is already a kind of libertarian
      c'mon
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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      • #4
        Planned Parenthood is selling dead baby parts and you're writing articles about the nuances of your political party's rhetoric.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
          IMO every Christian is already a kind of libertarian
          I cannot say I agree with this. This is only trivially true if we define libertarianism so broadly it loses meaning. I am not a libertarian in a very broad sense. I am one in a very specific political sense.


          , though of course not every libertarian is Christian. And not every Christian is pro-life, I think? But I guess more Christians are pro-life than pro-choice.
          That would be true I suspect. I do not generally argue for pro-life issues from a Christian standpoint. And that certainly would not be persuasive in the context of my article.
          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Darfius View Post
            Planned Parenthood is selling dead baby parts and you're writing articles about the nuances of your political party's rhetoric.
            Ahh a concern troll. Go away, I do not wish you in my thread.
            The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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            • #7
              I respect libertarian ideas, but they are not always practical. That they cannot agree on such a fundamentally 'libertarian' position such as the individual right to life seems to indicate to me that the libertarian philosophy is somehow lacking in some other fundamental principles. Thoughts?
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                c'mon
                I would define "libertarian" as one who follows the No-Aggression principle. Do you and Xena know the principle?
                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                  I would define "libertarian" as one who follows the No-Aggression principle. Do you and Xena know the principle?
                  I would too, but precisely what that means is somewhat vague in the context of this discussion. Most Christians I know do not follow this in the slightest.

                  I know the principle... Xena... not so much.
                  The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    I respect libertarian ideas, but they are not always practical. That they cannot agree on such a fundamentally 'libertarian' position such as the individual right to life seems to indicate to me that the libertarian philosophy is somehow lacking in some other fundamental principles. Thoughts?
                    It is not that they do not agree. It is that any human construct is going to have flaws in understanding. A pro-choice libertarian doesn't deny a right to life. They deny a right to live at the expense of another person because we deny positive rights.
                    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Darth Xena View Post
                      It is not that they do not agree. It is that any human construct is going to have flaws in understanding. A pro-choice libertarian doesn't deny a right to life. They deny a right to live at the expense of another person because we deny positive rights.
                      I don't understand. Is not the individual right to life a positive right?
                      Last edited by robrecht; 08-25-2015, 10:12 PM.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                      • #12
                        Libertarian is used in Poli Sci to refer to social liberal/fiscal conservative spectrum. It's a big mass of political gray. I wish those claiming the title all the best in the endeavor but I am highly dubious of the possibility of defining a Libertarian tent.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Libertarian is used in Poli Sci to refer to social liberal/fiscal conservative spectrum. It's a big mass of political gray. I wish those claiming the title all the best in the endeavor but I am highly dubious of the possibility of defining a Libertarian tent.
                          Yes, libertarians are socially liberal and fiscally conservative in a political context. Which is in line with the NAP.

                          Which is why this meme was such a hit on the LPCO page


                          11828647_10153439654622649_8604035047456747700_n.jpg
                          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            I don't understand. Is not the individual right to life a positive right?
                            No it is not. A positive right is something that places an obligation upon another person to fulfill. I have no positive duties to do anything for you to fulfill your right to life. I have only a negative duty to refrain from killing you (unless in self-defense).

                            For example from the LP Platform:

                            Libertarians embrace the concept that all people are born with certain inherent rights. We reject the idea that a natural right can ever impose an obligation upon others to fulfill that "right."
                            The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                            • #15
                              Very good short explanation of the difference between negative and positive rights

                              https://youtu.be/gXOEkj6Jz44

                              "Prof. Aeon Skoble describes the key differences between positive and negative rights. Fundamentally, positive rights require others to provide you with either a good or service. A negative right, on the other hand, only requires others to abstain from interfering with your actions. If we are free and equal by nature, and if we believe in negative rights, any positive rights would have to be grounded in consensual arrangements."
                              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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