The unpardonable sin

[Forrest]

Many refer to this as...The unpardonable sin

Mat 12:31-32 (NIV) And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. {32} Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The Holy Spirit is the vehicle (poor word but I can think of no other) that carries our pardon. The NIV uses the word forgiveness here, a better word is the legal word pardon. Why? Because it gives us a better picture of the process that is actually taking place.

Consider this process…The Holy Spirit prompts us to pray for forgiveness. We are convicted in our hearts and so we pray. The Spirit than carries our prayer to the advocate, Jesus the Son, who is in court arguing our case with Satan the accuser before the judge, God the Father. Now realize this is a court proceeding. We have broken the law, the Spirit knows it and tells us to plead the ‘blood of the lamb’, to give our sin to Jesus. Jesus then submits our plea and we are justified before God.

BUT…what if you deny the Holy Spirit? What if you do not accept His promptings? Will you receive your pardon from God, for certainly you are guilty!

And even worse…what if you blaspheme the Spirit, reject Him as being of the evil one. Even if you do not realize you are doing this are there not consequences? YES! Because you are shutting the Spirit out and so your sin can in no way be pardoned!

The Holy Spirit is the place where we make our choice to receive from God or not. All else is done, but if we do not accept the ministry of the Holy Spirit how can we be pardoned? We can not!

So I say to you…listen for His voice, for the Spirit is the Lord and He is here to help you. Indeed, this is a good way to start any prayer… “Holy Spirit, help me pray”

[RanRan]

Consider this process…The Holy Spirit prompts us to pray for forgiveness. We are convicted in our hearts and so we pray. The Spirit than carries our prayer to the advocate, Jesus the Son, who is in court arguing our case with Satan the accuser before the judge, God the Father. Now realize this is a court proceeding. We have broken the law, the Spirit knows it and tells us to plead the ‘blood of the lamb’, to give our sin to Jesus. Jesus then submits our plea and we are justified before God.
That's another gospel's fairy tale.

Consider this 'process': Christ takes away the sins of the world and by that atones God - so that God is no longer counting men's sins against them. That's what the Gospel says.

[Berean Todd]

Well, I agree with your point about the importance of not denying the Holy Spirit for sure. However I must disagree with the slant of the post to this "unpardonable sin". We must ask ourselves, what was the unpardonable sin?

First off remember that Matthew was the Gospel written to the Jews. Now look at the picture it presents to us of Christ. When He and the apostles came they came preaching what?

"The Kingdom of God is at hand!"

Jesus came offering the Kingdom to the Jews. Look in Matthew 10:5-7 as He first sends out the apostles ...

10:5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Sarmaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, 7 and as you go, preach, saying, 'The Kingdom of heaven is at hand!'"

He told them to only go to the Jews, to no one else. Why? Because He was offering them the Kingdom and the Kingdom had been promised to the Jews. The entire set up of the Gospel of Matthew is to show Him having the authority to make this offer. You see first his geneallogy - that He is of the line of David. Then you see the fulfilled prophecy giving a clue to who He is. Then you see the miracles proving who He is (remember when John the Baptist was in jail and sent asking if Jesus was really the One, what did Jesus tell the messengers? To tell JtB that the blind see, the lame walk, etc, etc ... it proved who He was).

So, now let's come to chapter 12. The people hear of the prophecy, the see the miracles, and in verse 23 what happens? "12:23 All the crowds were amazed and were saying, "This man cannot be the Sond of David can he?" You see the crowds were starting to wonder if this could be the promised Masheach. But what happens immediately?

The pharisees condemn him, and say that He did his miracles by the power of Satan. They rejected Him and turned the crowds against Him. They began asking for more signs, more proof, when all the proof they needed was allready there. What was Jesus' response?

"An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet .... the men of Ninevah will stand up with this generation at judment and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of SOlomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here ... that is the way it will be with this evil generation.

From that point on Jesus never again preached that the Kingdom of heaven is near and at the close of the Gospel He sent His apostles out not to the Jews only but to the world. Notice also that at His trials, these people would say to Pilate, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children."

And truly that happened, for judgment in the form of the Roman army would destroy that generation, and trample Jerusalem under foot.

So, what I am saying is that the unpardonable sin is not something we can walk around today and say "oops, I commited the unpardonable sin, I can't be saved." And it doesn't have to do with just rejecting salvation. The unpardonable sin was a generational sin that brought a curse upon that specific generation that saw Jesus and the works of the Holy Spirit before them, that had the promised Kingdom offered to them, and that rejected it, and ascribed it to Satan.

[James Peter]

I think 'fairytale' is harsh Ran, it is a metaphor. Other metaphors are also used and so its reasonable to say that none of them are exactly what happens. Personally I think there are 'more accurate' metaphors used but it isn't a fairytale... it is just a metaphor that shouldn't be taken entirely literally.

[Forrest]

That's another gospel's fairy tale.

Consider this 'process': Christ takes away the sins of the world and by that atones God - so that God is no longer counting men's sins against them. That's what the Gospel says.

So then you say we no longer need to pray over your sins....and The Holy Spirit has no ministry.

[Forrest]

Well, I agree with your point about the importance of not denying the Holy Spirit for sure. However I must disagree with the slant of the post to this "unpardonable sin". We must ask ourselves, what was the unpardonable sin?

First off remember that Matthew was the Gospel written to the Jews. Now look at the picture it presents to us of Christ. When He and the apostles came they came preaching what?

"The Kingdom of God is at hand!"

Jesus came offering the Kingdom to the Jews. Look in Matthew 10:5-7 as He first sends out the apostles ...

10:5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Sarmaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, 7 and as you go, preach, saying, 'The Kingdom of heaven is at hand!'"

He told them to only go to the Jews, to no one else. Why? Because He was offering them the Kingdom and the Kingdom had been promised to the Jews. The entire set up of the Gospel of Matthew is to show Him having the authority to make this offer. You see first his geneallogy - that He is of the line of David. Then you see the fulfilled prophecy giving a clue to who He is. Then you see the miracles proving who He is (remember when John the Baptist was in jail and sent asking if Jesus was really the One, what did Jesus tell the messengers? To tell JtB that the blind see, the lame walk, etc, etc ... it proved who He was).

So, now let's come to chapter 12. The people hear of the prophecy, the see the miracles, and in verse 23 what happens? "12:23 All the crowds were amazed and were saying, "This man cannot be the Sond of David can he?" You see the crowds were starting to wonder if this could be the promised Masheach. But what happens immediately?

The pharisees condemn him, and say that He did his miracles by the power of Satan. They rejected Him and turned the crowds against Him. They began asking for more signs, more proof, when all the proof they needed was allready there. What was Jesus' response?

"An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet .... the men of Ninevah will stand up with this generation at judment and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of SOlomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here ... that is the way it will be with this evil generation.

From that point on Jesus never again preached that the Kingdom of heaven is near and at the close of the Gospel He sent His apostles out not to the Jews only but to the world. Notice also that at His trials, these people would say to Pilate, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children."

And truly that happened, for judgment in the form of the Roman army would destroy that generation, and trample Jerusalem under foot.

So, what I am saying is that the unpardonable sin is not something we can walk around today and say "oops, I commited the unpardonable sin, I can't be saved." And it doesn't have to do with just rejecting salvation. The unpardonable sin was a generational sin that brought a curse upon that specific generation that saw Jesus and the works of the Holy Spirit before them, that had the promised Kingdom offered to them, and that rejected it, and ascribed it to Satan.

I hear what you are saying. If it were a generational sin Jesus would have said so. But He said..."whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit". The better question to ask is what does Jesus mean by blasphemes.

Indeed Jesus was speaking directly about how they had ascribed the works He’d done to Satan instead of God. However I believe that many believers do that in a subtler way, basically rejecting the Spirit as the one who prompts them to repent and not allowing Him to carry back to us the resolution of our pardon.

“If you hold to my teachings you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free”. This speaks of a bondage we are in because we are slaves to sin, guilty, imprisoned by it. Those who reject the dialogue of the Holy Spirit are condemned to resolve their circumstances by their own wits.

Luke 4:18-19 (NIV) "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, {19} to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

And the Holy Spirit is what He was anointed with. consider that with this…

1 John 2:27 (NIV) As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.


Many today believe that anointing, the Holy Spirit, is counterfeit. If that is so are they not blaspheming the Holy Spirit? And look at what the rest of John’s conversation is here…

1 John 3:6-8 (NIV) No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. {7} Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. {8} He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

Jesus wants to destroy the devil’s work! But we need that anointing to teach us so that we can not just be forgiven of being a sinner, but so we may know the truth and be set free from every sin!

If you are in bondage to any sin today, this is how you stop sinning. Some believe the lie that you can’t ever stop sinning, but I tell you that is why Jesus came…to show us the way.

[mickiel]

Many refer to this as...The unpardonable sin

Mat 12:31-32 (NIV)




Just another space that righteous people try to fill into the bible with the condemnation of men, and squzze salvation out.

[RanRan]

So then you say we no longer need to pray over your sins....and The Holy Spirit has no ministry.The Holy Spirit convicts us of the guilt in regards to those sins.

[Forrest]

Just another space that righteous people try to fill into the bible with the condemnation of men, and squzze salvation out.
Mat 12:31-32 (NIV) And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. {32} Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I agree. The do not do as the Apostle Paul encourages us...

Phil 2:12 (NIV) Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

They either think they have arrived or are unwilling to listen to the convictions of the Holy Spirit...either way they will make a habit out of asking for forgiveness of their sins but find no real repentance.

Repentance is when we ask God to show us why we sin, the lie we believe if you will, and what truth will set us free from it. We must ask God to help us "change our thinking". This is what Paul means when He says..."renew your minds"!

[RanRan]

I think 'fairytale' is harsh Ran, it is a metaphor. Other metaphors are also used and so its reasonable to say that none of them are exactly what happens. Personally I think there are 'more accurate' metaphors used but it isn't a fairytale... it is just a metaphor that shouldn't be taken entirely literally.I just don't think it's accurate. Satan is defeated - the Objective Justification of man means that Satan has nothing to accuse men of. Christ heard him fall from heaven, I hear the same thing when I hear the Gospel.

[Slimland]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? This is a good question! Here is my take!

According to Hebrews, blasphemy is Unbelief wich is the Sin, that Jesus was talking about, when He said "The worlds Sin is unbelief in Me".

The Jews didn't enter Gods rest because of Unbelief, blasphemy.

Lets look at this--

God the Father spoke of His Son to come in the Old Testament Time.
Jesus Spoke of Himself in the 4 Gosphels time.
He told us, that the Comforter will be sent to us to Testify of Him.

This is the Last Testamony of Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit Testify's about Christ to the Believer and the World, To reject this Testamony, is Blasphemy, ie unbelief.

This is why it is not forgivven, it don't need forgivness, just a changing of the mind, Do you Believe or Not.

The last testamony on earth given to man is the testamony of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for letting me put my 2 cents in.
Slimland

[mickiel]

Mat 12:31-32 (NIV) And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. {32} Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I agree. The do not do as the Apostle Paul encourages us...

Phil 2:12 (NIV) Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

They either think they have arrived or are unwilling to listen to the convictions of the Holy Spirit...either way they will make a habit out of asking for forgiveness of their sins but find no real repentance.

Repentance is when we ask God to show us why we sin, the lie we believe if you will, and what truth will set us free from it. We must ask God to help us "change our thinking". This is what Paul means when He says..."renew your minds"!




Greetings,

Alright. Lets just assume that you are one of those who have " Arrived". Lets just say your a Christian who has asked God to free you, he has done that, and now your thinking is changed. Lets just say I am one of those people who is not a Christian, I don't talk to God at all. I am just an outright willful sinner. Let me ask you, which one of us does Christ come to earth to save?

Peace, Mickiel

[Chappie]

I often hear the phrase, "this was written to the Jews": sometimes the implications being that it is someway indigenous to the Jews only. Readily, I admit that many such passages exist, but often I see (IMHO) this suggestion out of context.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:15-17 (in Context) Romans 1 (Whole Chapter)

The Gospel is no less applicable to the gentiles; it's just that it must be presented to the Jews first. This is in recognition of the priesthood of the Jews, and that they were to hear the gospel of Christ first and then evangelize the whole world with it.

Romans 2:10
But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Romans 2:9-11 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter)

Concerning the unpardonable sin and forgiveness, IMHO it represents the unity of the Godhead. Christ simply will refuse to forgive blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. This blasphemy does not negate in any way the role that the HS performs in salvation. It is Christ (the one that has the power to forgive) that is offended. You can rail against him and be forgiven, for that is a part of his messianic role on earth, but just do not mess with the HS... :shrug:

Original post edited

[Zguy28]

The "unpardonable sin" or "blaspheming the Holy SPirit" is just unbelief.

If you don't believe in Jesus's atoning work on the cross, then you cannot be pardoned of it. Its kind of like a cyclical process.

Unbelief is a sin. Sin can only be pardoned through belief. Therefore unbelief is the only sin that cannot be pardoned. Its a valid argument.

[Chappie]

The "unpardonable sin" or "blaspheming the Holy SPirit" is just unbelief.

If you don't believe in Jesus's atoning work on the cross, then you cannot be pardoned of it. Its kind of like a cyclical process.

Unbelief is a sin. Sin can only be pardoned through belief. Therefore unbelief is the only sin that cannot be pardoned. Its a valid argument.

The passages in the bible call it blasphemy (to speak evil) against the HS. Contextually these passages say nothing about unbelief..

[Chappie]

:sos: :banana: :highfive:

[mickiel]

The passages in the bible call it blasphemy (to speak evil) against the HS. Contextually these passages say nothing about unbelief..


Greetings, as an outside observer, one of the favorite pastimes of Christians is to search the Scriptures for death and condemnation, I mean its just in them to do it. And it keeps comming out of them. They do that more than they search the Scriptures for life. I personally think they kind of " Get off on it". Establishing their position on top, buy reinforcing that there are plenty on the bottom. I disagree with this having anything to do with God.

In my view, where there is much sin, well then conversely much more Grace will be applied.

Oh, and by the way, that is in Scripture too. I just believe for every Scripture Christians find to condemn a person, I can find one to save them.

Peace, Mickiel.

[Zguy28]

The passages in the bible call it blasphemy (to speak evil) against the HS. Contextually these passages say nothing about unbelief..Think about it logically for a minute.

Is there any sin Jesus's work on the cross could not atone for? NO.
6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If that's the case, how can a sin be unpardonable?

[RanRan]

Think about it logically for a minute.

Is there any sin Jesus's work on the cross could not atone for? NO.
6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If that's the case, how can a sin be unpardonable?Because the King said so.

[James Peter]

I don't know, personally I think there are strong grounds with identifying the 'sin that leads to death' (1 John 5) with the 'unpardonable sin'. The sin that leads to death is clearly apostasy - abject unbelief. There are either two sins that cannot/will not be forgiven (and both passages suggest there is only one) or they are the same.

[Clarice]

Many refer to this as...The unpardonable sin

Mat 12:31-32 (NIV) And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. {32} Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The Holy Spirit is the vehicle (poor word but I can think of no other) that carries our pardon. The NIV uses the word forgiveness here, a better word is the legal word pardon. Why? Because it gives us a better picture of the process that is actually taking place.

Consider this process…The Holy Spirit prompts us to pray for forgiveness. We are convicted in our hearts and so we pray. The Spirit than carries our prayer to the advocate, Jesus the Son, who is in court arguing our case with Satan the accuser before the judge, God the Father. Now realize this is a court proceeding. We have broken the law, the Spirit knows it and tells us to plead the ‘blood of the lamb’, to give our sin to Jesus. Jesus then submits our plea and we are justified before God.

BUT…what if you deny the Holy Spirit? What if you do not accept His promptings? Will you receive your pardon from God, for certainly you are guilty!

And even worse…what if you blaspheme the Spirit, reject Him as being of the evil one. Even if you do not realize you are doing this are there not consequences? YES! Because you are shutting the Spirit out and so your sin can in no way be pardoned!

The Holy Spirit is the place where we make our choice to receive from God or not. All else is done, but if we do not accept the ministry of the Holy Spirit how can we be pardoned? We can not!

So I say to you…listen for His voice, for the Spirit is the Lord and He is here to help you. Indeed, this is a good way to start any prayer… “Holy Spirit, help me pray”

:yipee:

Well said, forrest!

Which is exactly what Paul taught in Ephesians...

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”[e] for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Paul here speaking as though he were the Holy Spirit!

The reason that so many cannot see this, forrest, is because they look for a gospel that benefits the self, they look for a selfish gospel that is about their salvation, their reward, their blessings, their joy, their peace, their fun, their pleasure, their vanity, their election, their specialness, etc etc.

Those looking for such a gospel, one as Paul says that their itching ears want to hear, will certainly find it, but it is not the Gospel that Jesus revealed to the world.

The Kingdom is not about self, but about service, about True Divine Love, a Love that does not even think of itself, but willingly sacrificing the very life that pulsates through its veins.

God's Love is so great, that even the tiniest taste will drive one to such sacrifice.

Jesus said that Light will reveal our inner darkness - which is the Truth that the Spirit of Truth longs to reveal, for before we can begin to grasp the Love of the Kingdom we must first be purged of our own self centeredness, our hearts must be made pure, and thus denying this sanctifying work by the Holy Spirit is indeed blasphemous.

When one begins to comprehend the depth of their own darkness, they will see that such sanctification is indeed given to us by Grace, that such revealing is offered to us by God's immense Love - it being impossible for darkness to be in the presence of God, to be in the presence of Love - for in such Light, those who still carry such darkness, would be obliterated.

Jesus came into this world seeking disciples, or are those who join with Him in doing the work of the Father, walking selflessly, in Spirit and Truth, themselves submitting to the ongoing sanctifying work that Christ longs to do in them, making them useful servants.

Belief in Him as our Teacher, our Guide, is the first step in joining with Him to do the Father's work.

Unfortunately for humanity, disciple has been diluted to simple mean those who believe, thereby also diluting the message of Jesus, making it of no effect in making true disciples out of men, men useful to God for His purposes. Useful to Love.

If I may also add here, forrest, one reason that so many are opposed to the idea of direct instruction by the Holy Spirit is because there are so many deceivers in the heavens - deceiving many into believing that they are being guided, even spoken to, by God. And so how is one to know that it is indeed the Holy Spirit who is guiding us?

We know by the fruits that are produced by such connection. The work of the Holy Spirit is sanctification, and so its true voice will reveal our inner darkness, setting us free from delusion and service to self.

And if we listen to its initial whisper, the promptings and guidings will start to become louder.

Not listening and responding is grieving the Holy Spirit, and if grieved often enough, the Holy Spirit will stop trying to guide us into Truth, leaving us in darkness, still enslaved to sin.

And most importantly, not useful to God.





Clarice

[RanRan]

I don't know, personally I think there are strong grounds with identifying the 'sin that leads to death' (1 John 5) with the 'unpardonable sin'. The sin that leads to death is clearly apostasy - abject unbelief. There are either two sins that cannot/will not be forgiven (and both passages suggest there is only one) or they are the same.Unbelief is not the unpardonable sin - you're taking what Christ said completely out of context. They were saying the HS was an evil spirit - that's the unpardonable sin.

Look at the last judgment, a kindness done to one of Christ's little ones was rewarded in apparent unbelief - they didn't have a clue. Frankly, if unbelief is the unpardonable sin for which there is no forgiveness once committed, then we're all screwed. One can't even repent of it.

[Forrest]

Greetings, as an outside observer, one of the favorite pastimes of Christians is to search the Scriptures for death and condemnation, I mean its just in them to do it. And it keeps comming out of them. They do that more than they search the Scriptures for life. I personally think they kind of " Get off on it". Establishing their position on top, buy reinforcing that there are plenty on the bottom. I disagree with this having anything to do with God.

In my view, where there is much sin, well then conversely much more Grace will be applied.

Oh, and by the way, that is in Scripture too. I just believe for every Scripture Christians find to condemn a person, I can find one to save them.

Peace, Mickiel.

I like your attitude!

[James Peter]

Unbelief is not the unpardonable sin - you're taking what Christ said completely out of context. They were saying the HS was an evil spirit - that's the unpardonable sin.

It is denying that the Spirit is (of) God; very similar to denying that Jesus is (of) God. Denying that the acts of God are divine acts IS, in my opinion, a manifestation of unbelief.


once committed[/b], then we're all screwed. One can't even repent of it.

True, which is why I prefer the term 'outright apostasy'. Ultimately if saying that a miracle was performed through the spirit of the devil and not of God then an awful lot of christians are probably screwed too. Every time we reject a prophesy (however questionable it might be) or a particular charismatic manifestation we run the risk of commiting the unpardonable sin. Basically every single cessationalist would be very, very guilty...and whilst I'll say they are very wrong I don't think I'd go as far as to say they are all irrevocably damned.

[Forrest]

:yipee:

Well said, forrest!

Which is exactly what Paul taught in Ephesians...

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”[e] for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Paul here speaking as though he were the Holy Spirit!

The reason that so many cannot see this, forrest, is because they look for a gospel that benefits the self, they look for a selfish gospel that is about their salvation, their reward, their blessings, their joy, their peace, their fun, their pleasure, their vanity, their election, their specialness, etc etc.

Those looking for such a gospel, one as Paul says that their itching ears want to hear, will certainly find it, but it is not the Gospel that Jesus revealed to the world.

The Kingdom is not about self, but about service, about True Divine Love, a Love that does not even think of itself, but willingly sacrificing the very life that pulsates through its veins.

God's Love is so great, that even the tiniest taste will drive one to such sacrifice.

Jesus said that Light will reveal our inner darkness - which is the Truth that the Spirit of Truth longs to reveal, for before we can begin to grasp the Love of the Kingdom we must first be purged of our own self centeredness, our hearts must be made pure, and thus denying this sanctifying work by the Holy Spirit is indeed blasphemous.

When one begins to comprehend the depth of their own darkness, they will see that such sanctification is indeed given to us by Grace, that such revealing is offered to us by God's immense Love - it being impossible for darkness to be in the presence of God, to be in the presence of Love - for in such Light, those who still carry such darkness, would be obliterated.

Jesus came into this world seeking disciples, or are those who join with Him in doing the work of the Father, walking selflessly, in Spirit and Truth, themselves submitting to the ongoing sanctifying work that Christ longs to do in them, making them useful servants.

Belief in Him as our Teacher, our Guide, is the first step in joining with Him to do the Father's work.

Unfortunately for humanity, disciple has been diluted to simple mean those who believe, thereby also diluting the message of Jesus, making it of no effect in making true disciples out of men, men useful to God for His purposes. Useful to Love.

If I may also add here, forrest, one reason that so many are opposed to the idea of direct instruction by the Holy Spirit is because there are so many deceivers in the heavens - deceiving many into believing that they are being guided, even spoken to, by God. And so how is one to know that it is indeed the Holy Spirit who is guiding us?

We know by the fruits that are produced by such connection. The work of the Holy Spirit is sanctification, and so its true voice will reveal our inner darkness, setting us free from delusion and service to self.

And if we listen to its initial whisper, the promptings and guidings will start to become louder.

Not listening and responding is grieving the Holy Spirit, and if grieved often enough, the Holy Spirit will stop trying to guide us into Truth, leaving us in darkness, still enslaved to sin.

And most importantly, not useful to God.





Clarice

In truth there are only two competing theologies

The theology that says…God loves me and wants the best for me, therefore listen to the voice of the one who loves you…

Verses, “I have a brain for reasoning, I’ll use logic, I’ll figure it out, this is what the scriptures says because I can read it clearly, etc, etc.” These are all listening to another voice. Either their own, a persons, or worse yet that of Satan or an angel of darkness.

And the results for each theology are very different. In the latter there is much striving, much concern about being proved right, much fear and great burdens. In the former we see not only the fruits of the Spirit, but we see sin being resolved. A man who walks in the light will unlearn the lies that have bound him to sin.

Heb 6:7-8 (NIV) Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. {8} But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

This is one of my favorite scriptures. In fact I had a dream about it before I ever read it. What you said the other day reminded me of it, as it truly is an anchor to my soul.

Here is the dream…

I’m standing in my back yard. The yard is shaded by many great trees. As I look across the yard I see some places are lush, even tropical, others where the soil is absolutely barren. The barren places weave throughout the yard. I look up through the trees and see the sun shining through. Then the sun opens up and rain begins to pour out. The rain drops are big and fat, and as they strike the dry dusty barren places they kick up a small puff of dust.

The interpretation given me by a friend is this. The back yard is me. The tropical places are places where I am well developed and have wisdom. The trees represent both protection and greater wisdom. The sun is the Lord. The rain pouring out is the Holy Spirit and revelation.

Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it…this is something we should all seek and do.

[TheAnalogman]

:yipee:

Well said, forrest!

Which is exactly what Paul taught in Ephesians...

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”[e] for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Paul here speaking as though he were the Holy Spirit!

The reason that so many cannot see this, forrest, is because they look for a gospel that benefits the self, they look for a selfish gospel that is about their salvation, their reward, their blessings, their joy, their peace, their fun, their pleasure, their vanity, their election, their specialness, etc etc.

Those looking for such a gospel, one as Paul says that their itching ears want to hear, will certainly find it, but it is not the Gospel that Jesus revealed to the world.

The Kingdom is not about self, but about service, about True Divine Love, a Love that does not even think of itself, but willingly sacrificing the very life that pulsates through its veins.

God's Love is so great, that even the tiniest taste will drive one to such sacrifice.

Jesus said that Light will reveal our inner darkness - which is the Truth that the Spirit of Truth longs to reveal, for before we can begin to grasp the Love of the Kingdom we must first be purged of our own self centeredness, our hearts must be made pure, and thus denying this sanctifying work by the Holy Spirit is indeed blasphemous.

When one begins to comprehend the depth of their own darkness, they will see that such sanctification is indeed given to us by Grace, that such revealing is offered to us by God's immense Love - it being impossible for darkness to be in the presence of God, to be in the presence of Love - for in such Light, those who still carry such darkness, would be obliterated.

Jesus came into this world seeking disciples, or are those who join with Him in doing the work of the Father, walking selflessly, in Spirit and Truth, themselves submitting to the ongoing sanctifying work that Christ longs to do in them, making them useful servants.

Belief in Him as our Teacher, our Guide, is the first step in joining with Him to do the Father's work.

Unfortunately for humanity, disciple has been diluted to simple mean those who believe, thereby also diluting the message of Jesus, making it of no effect in making true disciples out of men, men useful to God for His purposes. Useful to Love.

If I may also add here, forrest, one reason that so many are opposed to the idea of direct instruction by the Holy Spirit is because there are so many deceivers in the heavens - deceiving many into believing that they are being guided, even spoken to, by God. And so how is one to know that it is indeed the Holy Spirit who is guiding us?

We know by the fruits that are produced by such connection. The work of the Holy Spirit is sanctification, and so its true voice will reveal our inner darkness, setting us free from delusion and service to self.

And if we listen to its initial whisper, the promptings and guidings will start to become louder.

Not listening and responding is grieving the Holy Spirit, and if grieved often enough, the Holy Spirit will stop trying to guide us into Truth, leaving us in darkness, still enslaved to sin.

And most importantly, not useful to God.


Clarice

That sounds scary, Clarice. What could one do if found in that situation, IYO?

[Chappie]

Unbelief is not the unpardonable sin - you're taking what Christ said completely out of context. They were saying the HS was an evil spirit - that's the unpardonable sin.

Look at the last judgment, a kindness done to one of Christ's little ones was rewarded in apparent unbelief - they didn't have a clue. Frankly, if unbelief is the unpardonable sin for which there is no forgiveness once committed, then we're all screwed. One can't even repent of it.

I :love: RanRan's answer. No conjecture, no projections, no wisdom of men, he simply takes what Christ said and believes him.

Others have taken it upon themselves to tell Christ, not only what he said, but what he meant to say also...

Get yourselves a good dictionary, bible of seculear; look up the deffinition of the word "blasphemy". Now Believe... Put a period there...

[Chappie]

HERE YA GO:
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
[With links to names] [With Easton] [With Nave] [With Torrey] [X]

[With Webster dictionary] [With Roget's thesaurus] [With ->German] [With ->German2] [With ->Russian] [With ->French] [With ->Estonian] [X]

[A][C][D][E][F][G][H][I][J][K][L][M][N][O][P][Q][R][S][T][U][V][W][X][Y][Z]
[blasphemy]
Topic: Blaspheme, Blasphemy, Blasphemer, Blasphemous
<A-1,Noun,988,blasphemia>
either from blax, "sluggish, stupid," or, probably, from blapto, "to injure," and pheme, "speech," (Eng. "blasphemy") is so translated thirteen times in the RV, but "railing" in Matt. 15:19; Mark 7:22; Eph. 4:31; Col. 3:8; 1 Tim. 6:4; Jude 1:9. [B]The word "blasphemy" is practically confined to speech defamatory of the Divine Majesty. See Note, below. See EVIL SPEAKING, RAILING.

<B-1,Verb,987,blasphemeo>
"to blaspheme, rail at or revile," is used (a) in a general way, of any contumelious speech, reviling, calumniating, railing at, etc., as of those who railed at Christ, e.g., Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29; Luke 22:65 (RV, "reviling"); Luke 23:39; (b) of those who speak contemptuously of God or of sacred things, e.g., Matt. 9:3; Mark 3:28; Rom. 2:24; 1 Tim. 1:20; 6:1; Rev. 13:6; 16:9,11,21; "hath spoken blasphemy," Matt. 26:65; "rail at," 2 Pet. 2:10; Jude 1:8,10; "railing," 2 Pet. 2:12; "slanderously reported," Rom. 3:8; "be evil spoken of," Rom. 14:16; 1 Cor. 10:30; 2 Pet. 2:2; "speak evil of," Titus 3:2; 1 Pet. 4:4; "being defamed," 1 Cor. 4:13. The verb (in the present participial form) is translated "blasphemers" in Acts 19:37; in Mark 2:7, "blasphemeth," RV, for AV, "speaketh blasphemies."

There is no noun in the original representing the English "blasphemer." This is expressed either by the verb, or by the adjective blasphemos. See DEFAME, RAIL, REPORT, REVILE.

<C-1,Adjective,989,blasphemos>
"abusive, speaking evil," [B] is translated "blasphemous," in Acts 6:11,13; "a blasphemer," 1 Tim. 1:13; "railers," 2 Tim. 3:2, RV; "railing," 2 Pet. 2:11. See RAIL.

Note: As to Christ's teaching concerning "blasphemy" against the Holy Spirit, e.g., Matt. 12:32, that anyone, with the evidence of the Lord's power before His eyes, should declare it to be Satanic, exhibited a condition of heart beyond Divine illumination and therefore hopeless. Divine forgiveness would be inconsistent with the moral nature of God. As to the Son of Man, in his state of humiliation, there might be misunderstanding, but not so with the Holy Spirit's power demonstrated.

To believe is passive, to speak is proactive. Two entirely different contexts of actions. One cannot be substituted for the other...

[Clarice]

That sounds scary, Clarice. What could one do if found in that situation, IYO?

Which situation are you speaking of?

[TheAnalogman]

Which situation are you speaking of?

This one, my friend:


We know by the fruits that are produced by such connection. The work of the Holy Spirit is sanctification, and so its true voice will reveal our inner darkness, setting us free from delusion and service to self.

And if we listen to its initial whisper, the promptings and guidings will start to become louder.

Not listening and responding is grieving the Holy Spirit, and if grieved often enough, the Holy Spirit will stop trying to guide us into Truth, leaving us in darkness, still enslaved to sin.

And most importantly, not useful to God.

[Clarice]

This one, my friend:

Hello Analogman!

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him! - Jesus

But we need to remember two things.

One is that God hears righteous prayers, so our prayer must be in like-mindedness with Jesus or praying in His Name - seeking the Holy Spirit for the Father's Will, seeking to join in the Father's Work, whatever that may be, which for fallen humanity, is first our own sanctification.

The second point is to remember what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of Truth that will lead us into Truth, and not a spirit in which we can revel in our specialness/electness with God, all the while we remain enslaved to sin.

The latter spirit would certainly be blaspheming the Holy Spirit, don't you think?



Clarice

[Chappie]

Hello Analogman!

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him! - Jesus

But we need to remember two things.

One is that God hears righteous prayers, so our prayer must be in like-mindedness with Jesus or praying in His Name - seeking the Holy Spirit for the Father's Will, seeking to join in the Father's Work, whatever that may be, which for fallen humanity, is first our own sanctification.

The second point is to remember what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of Truth that will lead us into Truth, and not a spirit in which we can revel in our specialness/electness with God, all the while we remain enslaved to sin.

This would certainly be blaspheming the Holy Spirit, don't you think?



Clarice

Blasphemy is to speak evil of deity. It is that short, and that simple. And it requires knowledge of ones actions, and that action must be predicated upon some perceived gain. You in fact would have to acknowledge and find acceptable the consequence of your blasphemy in order for it to be unpardonable...

We tend to loose focus because we sometimes think that Christ was accusing the Pharisees of committing Blasphemy, he was not. He was explaining it to them and at the same time warning concerning its consequences... So as you can see, it involves a tad more than thoughtlessness or unenlightened speech, which we are all guilty of at one time or another. The condition of the heart plays a major role in its un-pardon-ability.

I know that you were not talking to me, please forgive the intrusion...

[mickiel]

Greetings,

The sin that is not forgiven, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, or lying while using the Holy Spirit as a basics of your lie, is a sin not forgiven in this age, or during the rein of flesh.

But it will be forgiven in the next age to come.

There really is no such thing as something God willnot forgive.

Far too many people blaspheme the Spirit every day for God to be condemning them. People say" God told me this, or that," when God has told you nothing, that is blasphemy of the Spirit. This sin is to prevelant for God to use it as a condemning point. If God did that, too many Christians would be condemned.

Peace, Mickiel.

[Chappie]

Greetings,

The sin that is not forgiven, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, or lying while using the Holy Spirit as a basics of your lie, is a sin not forgiven in this age, or during the rein of flesh.

But it will be forgiven in the next age to come.

There really is no such thing as something God willnot forgive.

Far too many people blaspheme the Spirit every day for God to be condemning them. People say" God told me this, or that," when God has told you nothing, that is blasphemy of the Spirit. This sin is to prevelant for God to use it as a condemning point. If God did that, too many Christians would be condemned.

Peace, Mickiel.
Sounds like universalism....
"This sin is to prevelant for God to use it as a condemning point". I can only wonder if Christ was aware of that when he spoke.

Matthew 12:30-32 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

There is a difference between lying, being mistaken and blasphemy... Blasphemy, to speak evil of, to rail against.

[TheAnalogman]

Hello Analogman!

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him! - Jesus

But we need to remember two things.

One is that God hears righteous prayers, so our prayer must be in like-mindedness with Jesus or praying in His Name - seeking the Holy Spirit for the Father's Will, seeking to join in the Father's Work, whatever that may be, which for fallen humanity, is first our own sanctification.

The second point is to remember what the Holy Spirit is. It is the Spirit of Truth that will lead us into Truth, and not a spirit in which we can revel in our specialness/electness with God, all the while we remain enslaved to sin.

The latter spirit would certainly be blaspheming the Holy Spirit, don't you think?

Clarice

I don't know, Clarice. Perhaps it is. Blasphemy to me would be cursing and hating the Holy Spirit, a permanent and willfull rejection of all He does.




:hi: Chappie. Long time no see.

[Chappie]

:hi: Chappie. Long time no see.

:hi:

[mickiel]

Sounds like universalism....
"This sin is to prevelant for God to use it as a condemning point". I can only wonder if Christ was aware of that when he spoke.

There is a difference between lying, being mistaken and blasphemy... Blasphemy, to speak evil of, to rail against.


No No Chappie,

Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, is using the Holy Spirit to lie, its not false worship, or speaking evil things. For example; If I say that I am born again, and I am not, that is blasphemey. If I say God told me something, and he did not, that is blasphemey. If I claim to have Gods Spirit inside of me and I do not, that Is Blasphemey.

So you see, it is the plastic quasi-spiritual people who are committing blasphemey, not the outside sinners that you wish to portray guilty of it. Its people like me and you who seek God that mostly committ the unpardonable sin.

Peace, Mickiel.

[Chappie]

Greetings,

The sin that is not forgiven, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, or lying while using the Holy Spirit as a basics of your lie, is a sin not forgiven in this age, or during the rein of flesh.

But it will be forgiven in the next age to come.

There really is no such thing as something God willnot forgive.

Far too many people blaspheme the Spirit every day for God to be condemning them. People say" God told me this, or that," when God has told you nothing, that is blasphemy of the Spirit. This sin is to prevelant for God to use it as a condemning point. If God did that, too many Christians would be condemned.

Peace, Mickiel.

Well, OK. But that's not what I see the passage saying, says it will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come. Not my job to manipulate and escape what is clearly written, but just to believe it. I'm not so sure that God is as concerned with the numbers as he is with obedience to his word.

Too many for you (and me) but nothing to indicate too many for God to not forgive and remain true to who he is...
Be blessed..

[Clarice]

I don't know, Clarice. Perhaps it is. Blasphemy to me would be cursing and hating the Holy Spirit, a permanent and willfull rejection of all He does.



That is it! Our rejection of truth being revealed by the Holy Spirit - the truth first of our own inner darkness, is inwardly cursing and hating the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit that Jesus sent had a specific purpose and without Its help, we will be condemned.

This is why Jesus said that by our disbelief we are already condemned, even before He was born into this world, for without believing in His Son, believing in the sanctifying work of God done though Him, we are condemned. The point to remember is that condemnation is always reversable, once we start believing and listening, in this world or in the world to come.




Clarice

[mickiel]

Well, OK. But that's not what I see the passage saying, says it will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come. Not my job to manipulate and escape what is clearly written, but just to believe it. I'm not so sure that God is as concerned with the numbers as he is with obedience to his word.

Too many for you (and me) but nothing to indicate too many for God to not forgive and remain true to who he is...
Be blessed..


Chappie, you hold part of the answer in your own ability to read. For example, not forgiven in this age, which is right now. Or the age to come, the 1,000,00 year period, and then comes another age, or world, whichever you choose to use. That scripture is then fulfilled, and they can now be forgiven in the next age to come.

Your obdeience is better than the sacrifice that sinners are not making, but Christ sacrifice has covered their lack of obedience. Your obedience may be greater than their sin, but the sacrifice of Christ is greater than their quilt.

Something you christians seem to have a very hard time seeing, because your eyelids are held shut with your own sense of obedience.

Peace, Mickiel.

[mickiel]

Chappie, you hold part of the answer in your own ability to read. For example, not forgiven in this age, which is right now. Or the age to come, the 1,000,00 year period, and then comes another age, or world, whichever you choose to use. That scripture is then fulfilled, and they can now be forgiven in the next age to come.

Your obdeience is better than the sacrifice that sinners are not making, but Christ sacrifice has covered their lack of obedience. Your obedience may be greater than their sin, but the sacrifice of Christ is greater than their quilt.

Something you christians seem to have a very hard time seeing, because your eyelids are held shut with your own sense of obedience.

Peace, Mickiel.






Again, listen. Listen to the silence of the Lambs.

Another Christian remains silent.

Peace out.

[Chappie]

Again, listen. Listen to the silence of the Lambs.

Another Christian remains silent.

Peace out.

OK... The Chapster will chime in...
I do not like to debate universalism. It is such a foolish and unscriptural concept as to render itself so out of touch with scripture that only a preconception that places no value on a preponderance of scripture will seriously consider it.

The bible does not teach universalism, if you will not believe the bible, you will not believe me… You have already placed me (and scripture) in a hopeless situation...

The bible (not the Chapster) speaks of eternal damnation for those that reject Christ in this life. What part of eternal do you not understand?

Sometimes silence is golden, universalism should give it a try sometime...

Universalism teaches a desirable message, it saves all. Still the bible advises me that God has different plans…

Be well, and may God bless..

[mickiel]

OK... The Chapster will chime in...
I do not like to debate universalism. It is such a foolish and unscriptural concept as to render itself so out of touch with scripture that only a preconception that places no value on a preponderance of scripture will seriously consider it.

The bible does not teach universalism, if you will not believe the bible, you will not believe me… You have already placed me (and scripture) in a hopeless situation...

The bible (not the Chapster) speaks of eternal damnation for those that reject Christ in this life. What part of eternal do you not understand?

Sometimes silence is golden, universalism should give it a try sometime...

Universalism teaches a desirable message, it saves all. Still the bible advises me that God has different plans…

Be well, and may God bless..



Can you show me anywhere in this post that I have requested a debate on universalism? No, is your name Chapster now, that is just a fear in the back of your own mind. I hold no need to discuss that.

If you can discuss specfics as foundly as you discuss yourself, they why think that I cannot do the same, " Chapster"?

Peace out.

[Chappie]

Can you show me anywhere in this post that I have requested a debate on universalism? No, is your name Chapster now, that is just a fear in the back of your own mind. I hold no need to discuss that.

You have not. I don't know what came over me. Your forgiveness please...


If you can discuss specfics as foundly as you discuss yourself, they why think that I cannot do the same, " Chapster"?

Peace out.

Chappie, Chapster. You say potatto, I say potatta. :noid: :shrug: Chappie no sabe...