Is it wrong for Christians to get drunk?

[dizzle]

Okay, here is the question and this thread is limited to those who think it is okay for Christians to consume alcoholic beverages in moderation.

What about getting drunk once in a blue moon.

I am serious, if so, why? If not, why?

[Meh_Gerbil]

Okay, here is the question and this thread is limited to those who think it is okay for Christians to consume alcoholic beverages in moderation.

What about getting drunk once in a blue moon.

I am serious, if so, why? If not, why?

I had three margaritas for supper this past weekend and I was inspired to sing a hymn in the backseat of the car while my dad and my brother drove me back to the motel room.

Was I drunk?

I really don't know.
I've not had the room spin.
I don't throw up.
I'm not hung over the next day.

I just get really happy and giggle alot.

So every once and a while I like to drink until I get giggly - I then laugh until tears come out of my eyes and then go home and go to bed. I don't see any harm in that - but I suppose some people do.

It's something I do maybe 3-4 times a year.
The rest of the time I don't drink at all.

[Sparko]

I think it depends on HOW drunk you get and how well you can handle your liquor.

I went to a wine festival with my brother and tasted a few different wines and ended up buying a bottle and drinking it over a three hour period (there was a concert and we were eating cheese and other snacks)

I was drunk by the time we got done. I was in no shape to drive that's for sure. I was feeling pretty good, but at no time did I lose all self control. I knew what I was doing and remember every bit of it.

I think the bible really only has a problem when you drink so much that you lose self-control or you are in the position of being a bad witness to your fellow Christians and might make them stumble.

My preacher said to me once that he has no problem with an occasional beer or glass of wine (never talked to him about getting drunk) but he said that he doesn't drink any alcohol at all because he worries that someone might see him and say "Look! that guys a preacher and he drinks!" and be a bad witness for Christ.

[Crow]

I think that this falls into one of those areas where it's a matter of judgement.

If someone gets tipsy once in a while and doesn't decide to drive or go hunting or operate power tools, no harm is really done. Not the best use of his time and resources but the worst that should come out of it is that he might be a bit embarrassed when his friends remind him of his antics.

If someone drinks and drives and puts others at danger or drinks and starts fights or drinks to the extent that they do not fulfill their family obligations, don't pay their bills, or they lose their job or become an embarrasment to their family, yeah, that's wrong.

I can't see drinking a bit too much on rare occasion as a big deal. I can see being a drunk or putting others at danger as one.

[dizzle]

I think it depends on HOW drunk you get and how well you can handle your liquor.

I went to a wine festival with my brother and tasted a few different wines and ended up buying a bottle and drinking it over a three hour period (there was a concert and we were eating cheese and other snacks)

I was drunk by the time we got done. I was in no shape to drive that's for sure. I was feeling pretty good, but at no time did I lose all self control. I knew what I was doing and remember every bit of it.

I think the bible really only has a problem when you drink so much that you lose self-control or you are in the position of being a bad witness to your fellow Christians and might make them stumble.

My preacher said to me once that he has no problem with an occasional beer or glass of wine (never talked to him about getting drunk) but he said that he doesn't drink any alcohol at all because he worries that someone might see him and say "Look! that guys a preacher and he drinks!" and be a bad witness for Christ.

I am not talking about puking or not remembering what happened but more like what you and Gerbil said.

I don't think there is a problem with that. Though I do think there is a problem is you do that habitually (not you meaning you, but the generic you)

[dizzle]

I think that this falls into one of those areas where it's a matter of judgement.

If someone gets tipsy once in a while and doesn't decide to drive or go hunting or operate power tools, no harm is really done. Not the best use of his time and resources but the worst that should come out of it is that he might be a bit embarrassed when his friends remind him of his antics.

If someone drinks and drives and puts others at danger or drinks and starts fights or drinks to the extent that they do not fulfill their family obligations, don't pay their bills, or they lose their job or become an embarrasment to their family, yeah, that's wrong.

I can't see drinking a bit too much on rare occasion as a big deal. I can see being a drunk or putting others at danger as one.

Why not the best use? I dunno but I think wine was given to man by God for its enjoyment. I think we are to enjoy food and wine, but not be drunkards or gluttons.

[Sparko]

I am not talking about puking or not remembering what happened but more like what you and Gerbil said.

I don't think there is a problem with that. Though I do think there is a problem is you do that habitually (not you meaning you, but the generic you)

I agree. I drink maybe 2 or 3 times a year, usually around the holidays. Most times it is just a glass of wine or a shot of Bailey's Irish Creme, or a German Weissen Bier.

I hardly ever drink enough to even get tipsy. The wine festival was the first time in a LONG time I got that drunk. But that was not even close to how I used to drink when I was a teenager. I would go out and get plastered. I stopped drinking like that long before becoming a Christian though, because my dad was an alcoholic and I was afraid I would become one too. I was well on my way.

I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a little tipsy now and then to have a bit of fun. I do think getting wasted is wrong, or if there is a chance you would be giving a bad example to someone.

[TuckEverlasting]

Can this thread go long without mentioning Martin Luther? :ale:

[Crow]

Why not the best use? I dunno but I think wine was given to man by God for its enjoyment. I think we are to enjoy food and wine, but not be drunkards or gluttons.

Why not the best use? Because there are ways to enjoy yourself that don't have your friends snickering and reminding you of the stupid things you said and did the next day. Some can handle it, some can't without acting like idiots. It's a matter of individual judgement. For those with diarrhea of the mouth, it's surely not the best choice in entertainment.

All and all, it's not a big deal for me. I have a few drinks now and then--maybe a couple or three times a year I might have 3 or 4. Very rarely more--once a year or less. I spent too many years as a bartender watching too many folks make laughingstocks of themselves to crave that spotlight.

[norwegen]

Sometimes it is necessary to drink a little more, play, jest, or even commit some infraction in defiance and contempt of the devil in order not to give him an opportunity to make us scrupulous about trifles.

-- Martin Luther (1483-1546)

[Harfelugan]

Okay, here is the question and this thread is limited to those who think it is okay for Christians to consume alcoholic beverages in moderation.

What about getting drunk once in a blue moon.

I am serious, if so, why? If not, why?
I haven't drank since before my wedding 22 years ago but couldnt't stop drinking before that. It was embarising to me and couldn't have possibly brought glory to God because I was the slobbering fall down alot sort of drinker. My feeble advice is that you should know your limits in this area as being drunk is being incapacitated and everone else will know you are drunk before you will admit it. Whatsoever is sin to you will be sin in you so if you have a problem with it flee every form of evil . Dont criticise the drunk lady pucking into a bag beside you for she may be your sister in Christ. However you may ask her to take the bag with her when she leaves. My vote would be that blue moons are as acceptable as seeing a movie , reading a secular book , watching bowling on tv , or any use of personal time. All of which we struggle with to do them as unto the Lord. But dont we love to do them?

[ForHimAlone]

Great question, Zena!

Drunkenness as a lifestyle we should as believers obviously recognize is a sinful habit we should avoid.

I liked the mention of Luther..who doesn't know he drank? He had to keep the whistle wet while he was doing the Table Talks somehow!

Didn't the Monks invent beer?

I agree with the cautions about exercising responsibility.

For that matter, this question would lead us to ask whether or not it was alright to go to a club or a bar...which would lead to another thread if we made the question exclusively about attending a dance club.

I've seen extremely legalistic churches that hardly let you breathe. I've yet to attend a church - although they probably do exist- that let parishioners exercise a kind of "Nicolaitan" sort of Christianity (sexianity, really).

For my take: Yes, it's alright to drink on occasion. The question really is about whether or not we have the liberty to "get drunk". Jesus was said to have "saved the best for last" after the cheap stuff had been passed out and everybody had already gotten lit. The festive occasion of the wedding feast is a particular circumstance that may merit the use, however.

I think that, in general, and from my own personal experiences, Jewish people (religious ones) I have met and interacted with seemed less anxious or hung up about drinking in their own public circles than most Christians I've ever met, overall. I have never known a rabbi to get drunk per se, but many orthodox Jews drink wine regularly and especially at festive occasions like weddings.

That being said, I don't think the cultural norm should apply to everyone. People ought to know their limitations - (not to wax Eastwoodesque here)- and act responsibly in all public and private situations. Puking and black outs are a no-no and are signs of needing to "get with the program."

In general, though, I think that Christians are given too much legalism from the pulpit when it comes to consuming alcohol. The obvious problem is knowing when to stop and knowing how to be responsible and not end up at the end of the evening looking like :duh: or excessively :dizzy:

We could, if we wanted to, go down the road and say that "this leads to that," by which we meant that booze leads us to really bad stuff, like mother's milk.

Great question again, Zena.:cheers:

Now..are we allowed to dance in public again too? :b_mac:

:b_angel: :b_dance: :broccoli: :carrot:

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I don't think the biblical injunction against drunkenness didn't have to do with blood alcohol levels. As I understand it, the cultural referent for drunkenness in biblical times would have been more about getting wasted for days. Of course, we know more about the harmful effects of blood poisoning and we also need to consider the opportunity cost of how we spend our money and time.

I got technically drunk when in MX when with friends for whom that mattered. The one time I overdid it, they were there for me to keep me from doing anything stupid and I realized I didn't want to repeat that again, and so if I do drink, I usually just drink better alcohol and drink less of it, in part for reasons of cost.

dlw

[dizzle]

I think I might like it if you drank and posted though. Unless you were when you told Teal ... well you know what you told Teal.

[Trout]

I am fervently praying for a "NO" consensus in this thread.

[dizzle]

I got some peanut butter vodka here.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I think I might like it if you drank and posted though. Unless you were when you told Teal ... well you know what you told Teal.

If I could afford it and were not attending a seminary that had a non-drinking lifestyle statement, I'd drink some.

Teal feels like a hangover I'm still getting over.

dlw

[Teallaura]

If I could afford it and were not attending a seminary that had a non-drinking lifestyle statement, I'd drink some.

Teal feels like a hangover I'm still getting over.

dlw

Just couldn't do it, could you? You didn't even last a day!

So much for the 'gonna avoid stepping on her toes' (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1598340&postcount=18) thing, huh?

Louse.

Knock off the sniping - is that too danged hard for you to understand? What part of 'quit it' do you not get?

Didn't your mommy ever teach you 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all'? I left you alone - return the favor...


---------------------------------------------------------------------



To the OP, yes, I think it's a sin to get drunk. I'm not sure where the line is, but I suspect tipsy is getting there. I'm a teatotaler myself, but with an alcoholic in my family history, I think that just good sense. Moderate consumption cannot be sinful because Jesus drank wine. But nowhere in Scripture is getting drunk approved - or does it turn out well (Noah, Lot...).

[ForHimAlone]

I Tim. 5.23 Yeah, I know Paul said this to Timothy and not everybody ...Consider also: Eph. 5.18;Rom. 13.13;
II Pe. 4.3 with Col. 2.20-23

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

I might like DLW if I got drunk all the time.

[Alien]

Just couldn't do it, could you? You didn't even last a day!

So much for the 'gonna avoid stepping on her toes' (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showpost.php?p=1598340&postcount=18) thing, huh?

Louse.

Knock off the sniping - is that too danged hard for you to understand? What part of 'quit it' do you not get?

Didn't your mommy ever teach you 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all'? I left you alone - return the favor...

You two aren't married by any chance, are you? :lol:



What was the original question ... oh yes, drinking. I drink fairly regularly, mainly wine, but don't get drunk any more. I got tired of hangovers a long time ago.

[Teallaura]

You two aren't married by any chance, are you? :lol:


:brood:

Okay, Alien is about to die painfully... :tl:


What was the original question ... oh yes, drinking. I drink fairly regularly, mainly wine, but don't get drunk any more. I got tired of hangovers a long time ago.You might wanna rethink that - this is gonna hurt! :grin:


























































:wink:

[Tickle Me Mercury]

[Got permission from Dee Dee before posting.]

I just wanted to point out something that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread: it's been noted that Jesus drank wine and that wine consumption is mentioned frequently in the Bible. I think, in addition to that it should be noted that, millenia ago, beer and wine were dietary staples. Beer especially was a thick, pulpy "drink" which provided a lot of daily calories; it was, in fact a great way of preserving grains. And with wine, though it wasn't a carb source, was a safe way of getting liquid into the body. The alcohol content was much lower than how we think of wine or beer today, but it served to preserve the beer and wine from microbial contamination (not that they were aware of microbes at the time). Whereas water could have parasites and other contaminates. Plus, it was usually consumed with meals, which further damped the effect that alcohol would have had on the system.

I don't have time to do the look up I wanted to (I'm hurrying out the door), but I figured it might be a useful context to place the aforementioned alcohol consumption into.

[Teallaura]

I might like DLW if I got drunk all the time.I'm hoping someone will convince me I'm wrong on this - that way I can get drunk and he won't bother me 'cause I won't be able to read...


:hmph: Dang, why didn't you say that before I made up my mind?

[Teallaura]

[Got permission from Dee Dee before posting.]

I just wanted to point out something that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread: it's been noted that Jesus drank wine and that wine consumption is mentioned frequently in the Bible. I think, in addition to that it should be noted that, millenia ago, beer and wine were dietary staples. Beer especially was a thick, pulpy "drink" which provided a lot of daily calories; it was, in fact a great way of preserving grains. And with wine, though it wasn't a carb source, was a safe way of getting liquid into the body. The alcohol content was much lower than how we think of wine or beer today, but it served to preserve the beer and wine from microbial contamination (not that they were aware of microbes at the time). Whereas water could have parasites and other contaminates. Plus, it was usually consumed with meals, which further damped the effect that alcohol would have had on the system.

I don't have time to do the look up I wanted to (I'm hurrying out the door), but I figured it might be a useful context to place the aforementioned alcohol consumption into.

The consumption really isn't at issue in this thread - Dee Dee already restricted it to those who accept moderate consumption. The issue is becoming drunk (purposely). No where in Scripture does Jesus drink to excess - or is anyone encouraged to. I think thus far the consensus is that getting drunk is wrong for a Christian to do.

The question now is 'how much is too much'? I differ with Sparko - I think if you are feeling significant effect you are probably over doing it. But I don't see where either of us could make a solid Scriptural case.

It likely does boil down to good judgment at this point. Drat, just when ya need a good dogma... :wink:

[Johnny MacManky]

. . .Now..are we allowed to dance in public again too?

You may know that the official stance of the Church I'm a member of is abstainshunsh fwom (hic) dwinkypoohs as well as other naughtynessish.

Personally, I am okay with moderatorly drinking and in fact, consider my current ability to have one or two or three beers a phenominal achievement. This, I consider demonstrates that I am not an alcoholic, but I used to be a very heavy drinker, for a while daily drinking the equivalent of about half to a bottle of spirits.

Back then I used to joke I had alcoholic constipation, as I couldn't pass a bar. In reality, I had something more akin to alcoholic bulimia. When I had drank so much that I couldn't get any more in, I'd 'empty' my belly so I could drink some more.

Of course, Scottish and British drinking culture is, I suspect, different from Europe or the U.S. Over here, binge drinking for the purpose of getting drunk and incapable is not unusual. Going to the bar for one or two glasses of wine and stopping is quite unusual. To us, being 'drunk' means experiencing a degree of incapability.

The type of 'drunkeness' described by Gerbz and Sparko is more akin to what I'd call getting tipsy, or merry.

So, where do I stand (as opposed to falling over) on the OP? As a rough guide, the equivalent of 4 pints of beer of about 3-4% vol would be the maximum I'd personally consume. Obviously different people are capable of consuming less or more before they'd fall over. Again, different drinks bring about different behaviour. Some people could drink beer all night and be fine, but have a couple of whiskys, and they'd want to fight everyone in sight. Some girls are fine with a glass or three of white wine, but will lose all morality once they start on vodka & coke.

As my Pastor recently said (true, but it wasn't from the pulpit): Our Church prohibits married couples 'doing it' while standing up... just in case someone thinks they are dancing!

[Teallaura]

You just ruined "Merry Christmas"... :brood:

[Da Lone-Warrior]

Oye.:doh:

Teal, Whatever I said and how you saw it and I didn't read any of it except the last post, I'm sorry. :sad: :shy: :nsm:

Thankyou.:ale:

dlw

[Johnny MacManky]

You just ruined "Merry Christmas"... :brood:

Bah Humbug... and no one should be allowed to talk about Christmas until after my birthday!

[Teallaura]

Oye.:doh:

Teal, Whatever I said and how you saw it and I didn't read any of it except the last post, I'm sorry. :sad: :shy: :nsm:

Thankyou.:ale:

dlwAll right. Apology accepted.

[MrTulip]

Of course during ancient times to get a tooth pulled one got fairly well ... drunk. I would think it would be good in that situation. In fact recommended.
Of course the real sin was not brushing ones teeth and deliberately finding an excuse to get soused.

[Tickle Me Mercury]

The consumption really isn't at issue in this thread - Dee Dee already restricted it to those who accept moderate consumption. The issue is becoming drunk (purposely). No where in Scripture does Jesus drink to excess - or is anyone encouraged to. I think thus far the consensus is that getting drunk is wrong for a Christian to do.

The question now is 'how much is too much'? I differ with Sparko - I think if you are feeling significant effect you are probably over doing it. But I don't see where either of us could make a solid Scriptural case.

It likely does boil down to good judgment at this point. Drat, just when ya need a good dogma... :wink:

Ah, in my haste I wasn't thinking of that particular restriction she laid out. Well, though I am not Christian, my outsiders opinion is that I wouldn't think a Christian to be hypocritical for drinking in moderation, though like yourself I abstain completely and absolutely from alcohol.

Also, I had meant to make this clearer before: I brought up the idea that beer and wine were daily staples of the ANE diet to illustrate the distinction between how how our two societies view the purspose of those drinks. Because we have clean water and plenty of solid food sources from which to derive our calories, beer, wine, and spirits are pretty much only for some level of intoxication. Whereas in the ANE intoxication was a side effect that could happen if one was gluttunous with drink.

But, as you said, consumption isn't the issue here. But, those differences, when applied compared to some verses in the Bible, seem to add a bit of context. You mentioned a scriptural agrument, which piqued my curiosity. I found this answer site (http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html) that gave a pretty clear answer on the subject. They give at the very beginning a list of verses that "encourage people to stay away from alcohol." I looked them all up, for reference. Most of the ones from the pentateuch involve the total abstinence of Nazirites or specific events at Temple, and the prophets Isaiah and Micah seem to be pointing out the dangers of "strong drink," which would indicate not simple consumption but excess.

However, there still is that question, "how much is too much?" or "Where does drunkenness begin?" That's probably different for each individual. However, from what I read in the verses listed in my link, it seems that any imparing of the judgment is frowned upon, and though I could be wrong in this, the Christian perspective would be anything that distracts a person from the work of God.

[Teallaura]

Ah, in my haste I wasn't thinking of that particular restriction she laid out. Well, though I am not Christian, my outsiders opinion is that I wouldn't think a Christian to be hypocritical for drinking in moderation, though like yourself I abstain completely and absolutely from alcohol.

Also, I had meant to make this clearer before: I brought up the idea that beer and wine were daily staples of the ANE diet to illustrate the distinction between how how our two societies view the purspose of those drinks. Because we have clean water and plenty of solid food sources from which to derive our calories, beer, wine, and spirits are pretty much only for some level of intoxication. Whereas in the ANE intoxication was a side effect that could happen if one was gluttunous with drink.

But, as you said, consumption isn't the issue here. But, those differences, when applied compared to some verses in the Bible, seem to add a bit of context. You mentioned a scriptural agrument, which piqued my curiosity. I found this answer site (http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html) that gave a pretty clear answer on the subject. They give at the very beginning a list of verses that "encourage people to stay away from alcohol." I looked them all up, for reference. Most of the ones from the pentateuch involve the total abstinence of Nazirites or specific events at Temple, and the prophets Isaiah and Micah seem to be pointing out the dangers of "strong drink," which would indicate not simple consumption but excess.Okay - and thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

However, there still is that question, "how much is too much?" or "Where does drunkenness begin?" That's probably different for each individual. However, from what I read in the verses listed in my link, it seems that any imparing of the judgment is frowned upon, and though I could be wrong in this, the Christian perspective would be anything that distracts a person from the work of God.I'd certainly agree with that. :yes:

[Pilgrim]

I think it depends on HOW drunk you get and how well you can handle your liquor.

I went to a wine festival with my brother and tasted a few different wines and ended up buying a bottle and drinking it over a three hour period (there was a concert and we were eating cheese and other snacks)

I was drunk by the time we got done. I was in no shape to drive that's for sure. I was feeling pretty good, but at no time did I lose all self control. I knew what I was doing and remember every bit of it.

I think the bible really only has a problem when you drink so much that you lose self-control or you are in the position of being a bad witness to your fellow Christians and might make them stumble.

My preacher said to me once that he has no problem with an occasional beer or glass of wine (never talked to him about getting drunk) but he said that he doesn't drink any alcohol at all because he worries that someone might see him and say "Look! that guys a preacher and he drinks!" and be a bad witness for Christ.
On the other hand, I've had people see me at the local pub and say, "Hey you're a preacher. You're a real person! Very cool" I've actually found new members that way.

:shrug:

[SpiritWoman]

Why not the best use? I dunno but I think wine was given to man by God for its enjoyment. I think we are to enjoy food and wine, but not be drunkards or gluttons.

Gluttony. One of the seven cardinal sins and or demons.

Gluttony is not only limited to food. I beleive it is related to over indulgence in habitual practices of all kinds to the point of it's (The habits) consuming you and rendering you helpless or unproductive or sick ect.

Your inherent wisdom has answered your question ultimately, no matter how each responder depicts it.


Peace
SW

[Crow]

John 2



7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.

8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."

They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."



Occasional overconsumption must not have been the big hot issue bugaboo that it is today. It looks like the guests were already buzzed when Christ did this miracle since the servant noted that the best wine was wasted on the folks who were already drunk, so they weren't drinking plain old grape juice either.

[dizzle]

Just because a question is hard "how much is too much" doesn't mean the answer is to stay away from the question.

I do believe drinking is permissible for Christians. I do believe occasional drinking to behaviour affectation is permissable. I do believe that falling down puking face down wearing a lampshade on your head is not permissible.

[SpiritWoman]

John 2

Occasional overconsumption must not have been the big hot issue bugaboo that it is today. It looks like the guests were already buzzed when Christ did this miracle since the servant noted that the best wine was wasted on the folks who were already drunk, so they weren't drinking plain old grape juice either.

I surely hope it's not. It's Friday, and that is my Occasion to partake. Along with a few games of pool.

peace
SW

[themuzicman]

I hate to inject scripture into this discussion, but..

13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness , not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to [its] lusts.

17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

3 For the time already past is sufficient [for you] to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness , carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4 In [all] this, they are surprised that you do not run with [them] into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign [you]; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

I'll just leave it at that.

Edit to add: Changed my mind.

I think the point is that we aren't living worldly lives anymore, and we should be set apart from pursuing worldly pursuits, such as getting drunk and such.

Michael

[SpiritWoman]

I hate to inject scripture into this discussion, but..

13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness , not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to [its] lusts.

17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

3 For the time already past is sufficient [for you] to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness , carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4 In [all] this, they are surprised that you do not run with [them] into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign [you]; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

I'll just leave it at that.

Edit to add: Changed my mind.

I think the point is that we aren't living worldly lives anymore, and we should be set apart from pursuing worldly pursuits, such as getting drunk and such.

Michael

Yet, if you add the Gospel of Mary Magdelene to this list.

Jesus stated not to add to the list of laws that are not writtien in Torah lest you restrict yourself by them.

Jesus drank wine and so did his desciples.

I'll leave it at that.

SW

[dizzle]

There is no Gospel of Mary Magdalene. This is a Christian area of the forum for orthodox (not gnostic) Christianity.

[Lizard]

Just because a question is hard "how much is too much" doesn't mean the answer is to stay away from the question.

I do believe drinking is permissible for Christians. I do believe occasional drinking to behaviour affectation is permissable. I do believe that falling down puking face down wearing a lampshade on your head is not permissible.

:yeahthat: I pretty much agree. There are too many scriptures that expound on the pleasure of wine (i.e. wine gladdens the heart) to think that a little behavior affectation is a bad thing.
OTOH, there are way too many scriptures that expond on the evils of drunkeness and strong drink to think that there is no limit.

The difficult question is, "Where is the limit?" At what point does wine cease to "gladden the heart" and start becoming "a mocker"?

I personally don't like getting more than 'slightly buzzed' so once I begin to "feel" it, I generally stop (and don't drink that often anyway). Even though when I was in college I would get falling down drunk, I never got to the point where I did anything stupid that I would regret later (other than the stumbling a slurring of speech).

So where is the limit? Not sure. I know where my limit is, but I would not find fault with a brother/sister who went slightly farther than I do.

[The Curtmudgeon]

On the other hand, I've had people see me at the local pub and say, "Hey you're a preacher. You're a real person! Very cool" I've actually found new members that way.

:shrug:

I nearly had a heart attack the night that I was at one of our local Irish pubs and a young man walked up to me at the bar where I was getting my pint o' The Black Stuff and said, "Hey, I know you from church!" This was heart-stopping because I'm a Baptist, of course. But I'm one of "those" Baptists, the ones most Baptist pastors & preachers love to use as sermon illustrations (or more correctly, sermon targets -- but thank goodness for the priesthood of the believer!). However, I'm still going to Heaven -- I don't dance. (Bad :banana: banana! Bad, bad :b_mac: banana!!)

I doubt it's much help for me to add my "Me, too" to this topic, but I'm doing it anyway. Having a couple or three Guinni while socialising with my friends, or even having six or eight Guinni during an all-day festival while consuming food and water/soda to counter the dehydration (in other words, less than one Guinness per hour) doesn't affect me very much. Having the occasional whisky is okay, too. I've never yet drunk so much as to get physically ill, although I've certainly brushed that limit back in my young-n-stupid days (I'm not young anymore). But I don't want to, and I'm sure that God doesn't want me to, either.

The (but that's not to say I haven't been over the line anyway) Curtmudgeon

[SpiritWoman]

There is no Gospel of Mary Magdalene. This is a Christian area of the forum for orthodox (not gnostic) Christianity.

I apologize, I'll try to pay more attention to where I reply next time.

[NotQiteEinstein]

I surely hope it's not. It's Friday, and that is my Occasion to partake. Along with a few games of pool.

peace
SW

I'll meet you at Fast Eddies what time?:ale:

[Alien]

The difficult question is, "Where is the limit?" At what point does wine cease to "gladden the heart" and start becoming "a mocker"?


I don't see this as difficult. The line should be drawn at the point where the person's behavior (which doesn't mean the drinking in and of itself) becomes dangerous or offensive to others. I guess we can include dangerous to the drinker as well. That is going to be different for everyone; some people can become practically insensible and not be a problem to others. Some have two drinks and want to fight everyone in the bar. So, a short list of things that indicate you have had "too much" ....

Drinking and driving, handling firearms, using power tools ....
Becoming aggressive, physically or verbally.
Urinating or vomiting in other peoples' front yards.
Making unwanted sexual advances.
Loud singing or shouting late at night.

....

You get the picture.

[Da Lone-Warrior]

I don't see this as difficult. The line should be drawn at the point where the person's behavior (which doesn't mean the drinking in and of itself) becomes dangerous or offensive to others. I guess we can include dangerous to the drinker as well. That is going to be different for everyone; some people can become practically insensible and not be a problem to others. Some have two drinks and want to fight everyone in the bar. So, a short list of things that indicate you have had "too much" ....

Drinking and driving, handling firearms, using power tools ....
Becoming aggressive, physically or verbally.
Urinating or vomiting in other peoples' front yards.
Making unwanted sexual advances.
Loud singing or shouting late at night.

....

You get the picture.

I would add that we know more about the harmful effects of blood-poisoning from excessive alcohol consumption than biblical times and that matters as well. Of course, we also know about how there can be healthy effects from modest consumption of alcohol.

I think a lot of teetotalling is better explained from Church History than the Bible. After the 30 years war, there was serious cultural decline in Europe and alcoholism and alcohol abuse became quite serious in much of Europe so that the revivalists that influenced strongly USEvangelism tended to overreact and make not drinking of key importance and even a signal that you were "born again".

dlw

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Just a friendly reminder to anyone wishing to participate: This thread is in Biblical Ethics, which is a Christian forum. If you fall outside of orthodox Christianity you may not post here unless the appropriate person has given you specific permission. Thanks people.

[ForHimAlone]

I nearly had a heart attack the night that I was at one of our local Irish pubs and a young man walked up to me at the bar where I was getting my pint o' The Black Stuff and said, "Hey, I know you from church!" This was heart-stopping because I'm a Baptist, of course. But I'm one of "those" Baptists, the ones most Baptist pastors & preachers love to use as sermon illustrations (or more correctly, sermon targets -- but thank goodness for the priesthood of the believer!). However, I'm still going to Heaven -- I don't dance. (Bad :banana: banana! Bad, bad :b_mac: banana!!)

I doubt it's much help for me to add my "Me, too" to this topic, but I'm doing it anyway. Having a couple or three Guinni while socialising with my friends, or even having six or eight Guinni during an all-day festival while consuming food and water/soda to counter the dehydration (in other words, less than one Guinness per hour) doesn't affect me very much. Having the occasional whisky is okay, too. I've never yet drunk so much as to get physically ill, although I've certainly brushed that limit back in my young-n-stupid days (I'm not young anymore). But I don't want to, and I'm sure that God doesn't want me to, either.

The (but that's not to say I haven't been over the line anyway) Curtmudgeon

LOL...I liked this post..I happen to be in the same denom -for better or worse - but very funny post IMO.

[Johnny MacManky]

Just because a question is hard "how much is too much" doesn't mean the answer is to stay away from the question.

I do believe drinking is permissible for Christians. I do believe occasional drinking to behaviour affectation is permissable. I do believe that falling down puking face down wearing a lampshade on your head is not permissible.

I haven't done this to try & push the limits, nor to make an example, possitive or negative, of myself, it's just the way it happened.

Tonight (it's now almost 1am) a friend from the church had a party for her son's engagement. I'm just back from it. I'm not wearing a lampshade (yet) and I'm no where remotely near puking. I'm maybe... maybe... one lil drink over ya know... so I might, thingumy... 'hic'... but that's all.

We had, and continue to, have a good night. In fact, I had a good chat with a young Christian lady from the US, who is over here helping with missions. She had a couple of drinks, but didn't even finish the second one, yet felt really guilty about how certain folks might think of her.

There were lots of late teens, early twenties there who are 'unchurched'. IMO, as I explained to her, in the context of the circumstances, she would have seemed more 'real' to anyone who even noticed her, as opposed to those 'weirdos' who completely abstain.

We correctly make a great issue concerning exegetical context. Perhaps with relation to alcohol a similar issue of context should be considered. If, e.g. we had been out for the night with a recovering alcoholic, none of us, I'm sure would have had any alcohol. We would wish to show support and avoid causing our brother/sister to stumble. In that context it would be incredibly irresponsible to even have been in a location where drink was freely flowing.

Okay, that'll do. I think I may be rambling, and maybe speaking a bit loud... it's the disco music, honest!

stand still so I can hit ya...

[panama]

"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. "
Benjamin Franklin


There is nothing wrong with having a couple.

Drunkeness on the other hand is anouther story. The root of the problem lies
with it being an altered state of reality. To drink (or use drugs) for the purpose of divorcing oneself from the reality that God has given us , shows contempt for God.

[Losvedir]

Sigh, I don't understand this!

I go through this thread and it's all "Eh, one or two every once in a while isn't so bad." "Just don't get puking drunk." "Well, it's fun and helps you interact, just don't rely on it." etc...

And then the other thread about other drugs is all very much "No! It's bad!" I'm mainly concerned only with pot here, because I can assure you that you can treat pot just like alcohol. It's a lot of fun to just sit around with some buddies and listen to music, get a little high, talk and laugh and be mesmorized anew by God's wonderful earth. Seriously, you have a new appreciation for just simple things. "Wow, it's amazing how that bird can... fly!" "This tree has... three... four... five.... a lot of different shades of green. It's beautiful!" "I've never noticed how nice it is just to sit out in the sunshine before!"

Now, of course, like with alcohol it's possible to take it too far. Nobody likes a puking drunk, and nobody likes a.... what was I talking about again? It's possible to abuse pot like alcohol and help forget about problems, or get lazy and not do anything. But it's also possible to use it in moderation, so to speak, just like everyone here's examples of drinking.

Is the only reason the verdict in the other thread is so heavily against pot because it is illegal? If so, help legalize it! There's no reason not to if you support the occasional tipsy-level of drinking alcohol, as I see it.

[Johnny MacManky]

Sigh, I don't understand this!
. . .
Is the only reason the verdict in the other thread is so heavily against pot because it is illegal? If so, help legalize it! There's no reason not to if you support the occasional tipsy-level of drinking alcohol, as I see it.

Hi LosV,

The main reason I advocated against drugs (and likewise I was thinking mainly about pot) was because of my own experience with alcohol, nicotine and pot.

Fortunately I'm not an alcoholic, by which I mean, I'm not one of those poor souls who become addicted to alcohol and cannot take even one drink without needing to keep drinking, and drinking.... I used to be a very heavy drinker, but at least I was fortunate enough to be able to stop drinking, and now am able to drink in moderation and then stop once I've had one or two... or even, once in a while, three or four.

Pot had quite a different effect on me. Yes, the feeling was great, but it had two major adverse effects. One was that it led me, by necessity to using tobacco, and I quickly became addicted to nicotine. Even as I type, I'm chewing nicotine gum, and into the 6th week of my upteenth attept to break the addiction. Two, there are many studies which I haven't read, but they suggest that the use of pot can trigger an underlying disposition to mental illness. I've never bothered to examine it in great detail, but this I know: Not long after I started smoking pot, I had a 'breakdown', and I consider that my use of pot, even just a little, may have been a contributing factor. Almost 10 years later I still am on medication for depression... :woot: :loopy:

Now, given that alcohol, even just that one drink, can lead to alcoholic addiction, am I a hypocrite by not advocating absolute abstainance? Perhaps. I cartainly wouldn't encourage anyone to begin drinking, on the other hand, most 'kids' are going to try whatever they're told not to. IMO the best is to share one's own experiences, positive and negative and hope that as they learn the lessons for themselves they don't get too scarred in the process.

[Losvedir]

Thanks for the reply.

I appreciate your story, and I certainly wouldn't want to advocate for pot (in the sense of pressuring people to use them, merely that it should be legal to use them, and that aside from the current illegality shouldn't be any more sinful than alcohol).

However, let me tell you that my experience with pot was difference, as well as most people I know. Speaking for myself, I've used pot a few times but never smoked a cigarette nor have felt any compulsion to. Also, I haven't suffered any breakdowns mentally or anything (AHHH I JUST MISTYPED THAT LAST WORD AND HAD TO DELETE IT AND RETYPE IT!!!!!!!). It strikes me that perhaps the pot you tried was laced with something? My dad told me about a time he tried pot and it was laced with something and "put him out of commission for almost a year." That is my major fear of it (and would of course go away if it were legalized).

Also, I'd be interested in hearing anything about those studies. I haven't heard anything along those lines but it would be good to know about.

Anyway, I don't want to try to stray too far from the topic. I was just surprised to see the very different response to this thread then the one about the other drugs that I had just read moments before. I'm actually pleased to hear that your differing opinions are based on differing experiences as opposed to just hearsay about what pot is and does. I was afraid people were using the Bible to rationalize their own behavior of drinking alcohol (because it can be fun, I know!), but at the same time saying how the Bible condemns something else that's very similar that they just haven't tried. The history of pot and hemp is very interesting.

So thanks for the reply, and I respect your opinion. Some people do have bad reactions to it.



Hi LosV,

The main reason I advocated against drugs (and likewise I was thinking mainly about pot) was because of my own experience with alcohol, nicotine and pot.

Fortunately I'm not an alcoholic, by which I mean, I'm not one of those poor souls who become addicted to alcohol and cannot take even one drink without needing to keep drinking, and drinking.... I used to be a very heavy drinker, but at least I was fortunate enough to be able to stop drinking, and now am able to drink in moderation and then stop once I've had one or two... or even, once in a while, three or four.

Pot had quite a different effect on me. Yes, the feeling was great, but it had two major adverse effects. One was that it led me, by necessity to using tobacco, and I quickly became addicted to nicotine. Even as I type, I'm chewing nicotine gum, and into the 6th week of my upteenth attept to break the addiction. Two, there are many studies which I haven't read, but they suggest that the use of pot can trigger an underlying disposition to mental illness. I've never bothered to examine it in great detail, but this I know: Not long after I started smoking pot, I had a 'breakdown', and I consider that my use of pot, even just a little, may have been a contributing factor. Almost 10 years later I still am on medication for depression... :woot: :loopy:

Now, given that alcohol, even just that one drink, can lead to alcoholic addiction, am I a hypocrite by not advocating absolute abstainance? Perhaps. I cartainly wouldn't encourage anyone to begin drinking, on the other hand, most 'kids' are going to try whatever they're told not to. IMO the best is to share one's own experiences, positive and negative and hope that as they learn the lessons for themselves they don't get too scarred in the process.

[Bill the Cat]

I am an alcoholic, so I can't even drink a little without wanting a lot. I have recently had a single beer at a baseball game, but that was the extent of it. I remember when I first joined TWeb, and I got deployed overseas and had no restraint there. I drank a beer one night and then had another, and another and got sloppy drunk. It was really funny actually, but sad at the same time. I had an hour long conversation with a guy who believed in the "everyone has their own path to heaven" and was in full apologetics mode, but slurring my words together so bad that everyone was laughing at me. I still crave alcohol to this day, so I can not afford even one drink without someone to help me stop at one.

[Johnny MacManky]

Hi Bill,

I think that your experience is probably the best example as to why is probably is better for Christians to abstain completely from booze (as well as other naughty things).

Let's just imagine that you & I were to meet up. :woot: Johnny doesn't know Bill's history, and foolishy suggests "let's go for a beer". Bill's so excited at meeting Johnny (cause I'm so popular) that Bill momentarily loses his normal restraint, plus he doesn't want to offend Johnny... so off they go to the bar.

Bill buys the first round, cause Johnny's an expert at getting people to buy the first round... Johnny downs his pint fairly quickly and before Bill can protest, Johnny has bought another couple of beers, oh, and try this wee single malt Bill... it's a... blah, blah, blah....

Now, it really would be better if we could get to a place where our first reaction at meeting up with another Christian was....


"Hey, try this pill Bill... I bought it from some guy in the pub last night... I don't know what's in it... but...."

[Kate]

I am one of those Christians that also believe drinking is allowed; however, I do not think it wise. I have many reasons that I feel Christians should abstain. One of them I would like to put forth in form of a question:

How can we be truly transformed from this world if we conform to the idea that drinking is alright? (Romans 12:1-3)

[Pilgrim]

I am one of those Christians that also believe drinking is allowed; however, I do not think it wise. I have many reasons that I feel Christians should abstain. One of them I would like to put forth in form of a question:

How can we be truly transformed from this world if we conform to the idea that drinking is alright? (Romans 12:1-3)
You're going to have to put more into that question. It's kind of vague. One might as well say, "How can we be truly transformed from this world if we conform to the idea that using the internet is alright?"

See? You have not really provided any reason why having a drink makes it hard in the first place. Unless you are suggesting that Jesus Christ, when serving wine to the disciples, was not concerned with their transformation?

[aemes1]

Why would a Christian want to get drunk? :ahem:

[aemes1]

Actually that was a lame question...:-P

[Timothy Leary]

IMO, the issue is whether or not you can remain fairly responsible. As the erowid motto goes, "Know your body. Know your mind." Don't take what you can't handle, and start with a smaller amount - if you take too much, you can't ever undo that. If you take too little, you can always have another drink.

Personally, I'm absolutely terrified of alcohol, and won't use it. I've just had too many bad experiences where people don't act responsibly with it. Besides, it tastes absolutely nasty. But, I have no problem with people who drink responsibly.

[Amazing Rando]

IMO, the issue is whether or not you can remain fairly responsible. As the erowid motto goes, "Know your body. Know your mind." Don't take what you can't handle, and start with a smaller amount - if you take too much, you can't ever undo that. If you take too little, you can always have another drink.

Personally, I'm absolutely terrified of alcohol, and won't use it. I've just had too many bad experiences where people don't act responsibly with it. Besides, it tastes absolutely nasty. But, I have no problem with people who drink responsibly.

Same here. I don't trust myself with alcohol, so I stay away from it entirely. I'll be the weirdo that when hanging out with friends at a bar will order a diet coke with a slice of lime.

[Storico]

I don't mind the occasional alcoholic drink. I'll have one now and again on a special occasion (like a holiday, or whatever) with family or friends. I hate the feeling of being drunk (and yes, I've felt it before). A couple experiences with it showed me a few things...

- I like clear thinking VERY much. It's impossible to think clearly when you're drunk.
- Things happen that WOULDN'T happen when you're sober.
- If you think you look cool, and fun, and daring, you really probably look like an idiot. As much as everyone loves that scene in Rent where they dance on the table, it was an " experienced crew only" moment, and you can't repeat it yourself without falling off the table, so don't try.
- I feel better being the sober one when I'm with friends. Just having pop is fine with me. That way, if anyone's over the top, I take their car keys and ORDER them to crash wherever we are, so I call cabs and send everyone home in one. It's become a personal mission of mine to be the killjoy that makes it impossible to drive drunk. :tongue: And I'm proud of that.

As a Christian, I don't think there's anything evil at all about alcohol. Used responsibly, it's fine. When I have it, I do trust myself with it and I'll stop at one drink. I just find, more and more, that I'm not very interested in it. It's become something used more in a ceremonial way. A toast at a birthday. A glass of wine at New Years, or with dinner sometimes. I'm sure I'll have more than a couple drinks every now and then in my life, but I don't plan on making a point of it.

[easyboy201]

As a Christian, I don't think there's anything evil at all about alcohol. Used responsibly, it's fine. When I have it, I do trust myself with it and I'll stop at one drink. I just find, more and more, that I'm not very interested in it. It's become something used more in a ceremonial way. A toast at a birthday. A glass of wine at New Years, or with dinner sometimes. I'm sure I'll have more than a couple drinks every now and then in my life, but I don't plan on making a point of it.

There's nothing evil about alcohol, but you have to question a few things:
Motive is one, and as you pointed out responsibility is another.
Why do you want to get drunk? To fit in with the world? To forget about your troubles?
There a Christian perscriptions to this.

That's the problem with sourcery as well, I find sourcery in theory no worse than alcoholism - each person is going to another source instead of God to get their answers/hope or meaning.
And that is not on.

Also there's the verse that anything not done "in the Spirit" is sin.

A glass of wine is good for you... but getting drunk... not really the "Christian" way.

[Storico]

I didn't say I wanted to get drunk. :smile:

When I do have a couple drinks with family and friends, it's got nothing to do with wanting to fit in, or wanting to forget troubles.

Welcome to TWeb, by the way.

[Bill the Cat]

For your listening pleasure... :whistle: :dance:

[Storico]

For your listening pleasure... :whistle: :dance:

:lmbo: !! Oooooh geeze!! That voice sounds like the one that does the announcements at my pharmacy!

[easyboy201]

I didn't say I wanted to get drunk. :smile:

When I do have a couple drinks with family and friends, it's got nothing to do with wanting to fit in, or wanting to forget troubles.

Welcome to TWeb, by the way.

Awwww... thanks!

[easyboy201]

For your listening pleasure... :whistle: :dance:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh, man... you've already sold me!!! - yes maybe I just missed that last disclaimer.

(Now someone get me a bottle of tequila).

[Storico]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Oh, man... you've already sold me!!! - yes maybe I just missed that last disclaimer.

(Now someone get me a bottle of tequila).

*tosses one over*

1 tequila...
2 tequila...
3 tequila...
floor.

:ale:

[Timothy Leary]

99 bottles of beer on the wall...

[Bill the Cat]

I'm not as think as you drunk I am! and I've got all day sober to Sunday up!

:ale:

[Storico]

I swear, occifer, I'm drot nunk!

[YoungOne]

:lol: :ale:

[Ecualegacy]

I usually don't resort to sarcasm. But in this case...

Is it wrong for Christians to get drunk?

Dah, yup! Ephesians 5:18

No doubt someone will argue (or has argued...I admit I haven't read the previous 4 pages) that it is okay to be drunk if you aren't in danger of committing a sin (ie you're at home, your wife has the keys, the kids are somewhere else). Even if you want to take that tack, it is still a very, very dumb thing to do.

[Lazarus]

I certainly don't think getting drunk is something I want to make into a habit, but truth be told, I've had some of my best prayer experiences when I've been drunk. I remember coming out of a bar at 4:00 A.M one morning and sitting by a pond to watch the sun come up. I fell asleep on the steps and woke with an early morning rain falling on my face. I felt a sense of peace and an awareness that the Lord was with me. Now, I'm not excusing my drunkeness. If getting drunk is a sin, I was sinful. Still, the Lord was with me, watching over this fool as usual, and I was aware of it. That felt pretty good to me.

[outcast]

:smile: sorry im crossing the line, Former drug addict and alcoholic.

I was taught that if you had problems with alcohol you should not drink, because to me your tempting God with something He delivered you from.
However when it comes to Communion at a liturgical church like catholic or lutheran, which my family both are then i partake, because its about Jesus and not myself.

The only place in the bible that is acceptable for drinking is during a wedding, look at the account of the Gospel of John chapter 2. but if you have had a problem with it then i would suggest that you dont drink.

Lets see what the Word of God says "Be not filled with wine but be filled with the Spirit".

Apostle Paul teaches us to walk sober, and then in Romans 13 he talks about not walking in drunkenness:smile:

[Pilgrim]

:smile: sorry im crossing the line, Former drug addict and alcoholic.

I was taught that if you had problems with alcohol you should not drink, because to me your tempting God with something He delivered you from.
However when it comes to Communion at a liturgical church like catholic or lutheran, which my family both are then i partake, because its about Jesus and not myself.

The only place in the bible that is acceptable for drinking is during a wedding, look at the account of the Gospel of John chapter 2. but if you have had a problem with it then i would suggest that you dont drink.

Lets see what the Word of God says "Be not filled with wine but be filled with the Spirit".

Apostle Paul teaches us to walk sober, and then in Romans 13 he talks about not walking in drunkenness:smile:

Paul also recommends a glass of wine to help the stomach. There goes your assertion that the only place in the Bible acceptable for drinking is at weddings. The Bible does not prohibit drinking and no amount of revision will make it so.

However, you are quite correct that the Bible does warn explicitly against drunkenness.

[outcast]

Thank you pilgrim for showing me that one forgot about that one. Not to divert the topic but why do you think he said that, speculation mayabe because of bad water or for medical reasons, i know some pastors who use a shot of black berry brandy for the flu-cold symptoms and it works for them. only one shot .

[Lazarus]

St. Paul does recommend a glass of wine to help the stomach, but my Southern Baptist aunt insists that this means you are supposed to rub it on your stomach, not drink it.

[Pilgrim]

Thank you pilgrim for showing me that one forgot about that one. Not to divert the topic but why do you think he said that, speculation mayabe because of bad water or for medical reasons, i know some pastors who use a shot of black berry brandy for the flu-cold symptoms and it works for them. only one shot .

I think he recommends it because it worked for what ever issue they were dealing with. The fact of that matter is, historical revision aside, a lot of what would have been drunk would have been fermented, and these means, for the most part, wine. It's just a historical reality. And there is no where in scripture where having a simple drink is roundly condemned. In fact it is just the opposite: "Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs “drink wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:11 encourages 'yes, come buy wine and milk…'"source (http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html)

[Teallaura]

:yes: It's just that a 'merry heart' can legally drive...




... without even coming close to the limit! :thumb:

[Sparko]

didn't the pharisees condemn Jesus because he drank wine?

Luke 7: 31"To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:
" 'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.' 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

[Pilgrim]

didn't the pharisees condemn Jesus because he drank wine?

Luke 7: 31"To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? 32They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:
" 'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.' 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

I guess the answer would be no, they didn't. What they did was accuse him of being drunk, not simply drinking.

[Lazarus]

The consensus on this thread seems to be that it is indeed a sin for Christians to drink for the sole purpose of getting drunk. I suppose I can go along with this, but I think there is a fine line to walk when considering why getting drunk is a sin. People get drunk for many reasons, including deep sorrow, lonliness, feelings of inadequacy or because they feel abandoned and weighed down by life. Paradoxically, it is precisely among such people where Christ is found. I'm not sure the Christian approach to drunkards of this kind should be one of condemnation and derision. Indeed, I once knew a minister who frequented bars as part of his ministry. He didn't share drinks with the people he found, but he did lend an ear, gave pats on the shoulder and shared stories with them. It's easy to label a particular action a sin, but until we know the sinner and the story behind the sin, it is best to wait before passing judgement.

[Teallaura]

You're now addressing two separate issues: is it a sin and what we should do with the sinner. I have no quarrel with how to handle the sinner but the reasons for drinking that you list do not absolve the sin - in fact they point to yet another reason why drinking to excess is sinful for the Christian: it inherently denies the sufficiency of God's grace when used as a crutch (the reasons you gave are all understandable, but it's still being used as a crutch in those cases).

Bear in mind I am not referring to the medical use of a DME - I'm referring to the abuse of same. Being lonely is a lousy reason to get drunk - you're not gonna be any the less lonely when you sober up but you are gonna feel worse. That neither benefits you overall nor does it glorify God in the least. God didn't give us alcohol to get ourselves soused every time we have a problem. He gave us His grace for that.

God tells Paul His grace is sufficient - He does not tell Paul that His grace needs a non-medicinal depressant to help it along. Getting drunk for the purpose of alleviating your problems is a flat denial of the sufficiency of God's grace - and makes your problems worse to boot.

Now, our response to those who've fallen into that trap should be the compassion you spoke of - again there I fully agree.


























































* This is not an argument against the use of medicine - those God did give us for medicinal use. But the only valid medicinal uses for alcohol are as a disinfectant and an anesthesia - if and only if you happen to need surgery where no other anesthesia is available. John Wayne getting soused so the doc could dig out the bullet is acceptable as a medicinal use. Crying in your beer because your girlfriend just dumped you is not (as much as I might prefer it otherwise).

[Littlejoe9763]

I would like to add my 2 cents worth! As a person who was QUITE the party animal back in the day, I can personally testify to the dangers of alcohol and drugs...not to mention a few OTHER things. We I became a christian, I found it difficult to stop these destructive behaviors! After a lot of soul searching and Bible study and the power of the Holy Spirit, I was able to stop. I became an ardent tea totaler, anti tobacco, anti anything that was "BAD" for you. Then one day, I read Ecclesiates, and something "Clicked". I was an EXTREMIST. In Ecc 7:16-18 it says:

16 Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwise—
why destroy yourself?

17 Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a fool—
why die before your time? 18 It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other.
The man who fears God will avoid all extremes

I realized that being "overrighteous" was as bad a sin as being drunk! I have made it my Christian "Motto" if you will; "to avoid ALL extremes". This includes: alcohol, food (gluttony anyone), having fun, studying, tobacco (I love a good cigar on occasion), in short, I believe that ANYTHING that you allow to control you except the Holy Spirit is a sin! I don't care WHAT it is. If coin collecting controls you, it is a sin! So in conclusion, if you occasionally drink, and don't drink to the point at which you are no longer being controlled by the Spirit of God, then it is not sin. (BTW, I like a beer once in a while, or an occasional glass of wine)

LJ

[Lizard]

I would like to add my 2 cents worth! As a person who was QUITE the party animal back in the day, I can personally testify to the dangers of alcohol and drugs...not to mention a few OTHER things. We I became a christian, I found it difficult to stop these destructive behaviors! After a lot of soul searching and Bible study and the power of the Holy Spirit, I was able to stop. I became an ardent tea totaler, anti tobacco, anti anything that was "BAD" for you. Then one day, I read Ecclesiates, and something "Clicked". I was an EXTREMIST. In Ecc 7:16-18 it says:

16 Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwise—
why destroy yourself?

17 Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a fool—
why die before your time? 18 It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other.
The man who fears God will avoid all extremes

I realized that being "overrighteous" was as bad a sin as being drunk! I have made it my Christian "Motto" if you will; "to avoid ALL extremes". This includes: alcohol, food (gluttony anyone), having fun, studying, tobacco (I love a good cigar on occasion), in short, I believe that ANYTHING that you allow to control you except the Holy Spirit is a sin! I don't care WHAT it is. If coin collecting controls you, it is a sin! So in conclusion, if you occasionally drink, and don't drink to the point at which you are no longer being controlled by the Spirit of God, then it is not sin. (BTW, I like a beer once in a while, or an occasional glass of wine)

LJ
:hehe: I came from the other end. I became a christian and a young age. I was raised in a tea totle house (well dad would have a beer once in a blue moon when he was with certain cosins, but the fact horrified me at the time. Mom was (and still is but to a lesser extent) a rabid tea totler.

About my Sophmore year in college I realize that te totalism just was not scriptural. So being a sophmore (wise/fool) I went the other extreme and drank to excess. (Not for very long, I soon learned that this was not the lifestyle for me). So I went back to the other extreme.

It took me years of flip flopping between the two to realize that moderation is the Biblical answer. (I still need to learn to moderate my food intake)

[Amazing Rando]

I choose not to drink myself (not even in moderation), but I have no problem with those who do.

[Lazarus]

I can't disagree with anything you wrote in your posting, Teallaura. In fact, I'm reminded of Matthew Talbot, a 19th Century Irishman infamous for his drunkedness, who reformed his life through prayer and became a model Christian. Each night, before going to sleep, he made it a habit to throw his shoes as far under his bed as he could. His reason, he explained, was that as an alcoholic he was constantly tempted to have just one little drink. Each morning, as he knelt to retrieve his shoes, he would be reminded to pray for God's grace to keep him sober for just one more day. I guess there are worse reasons to throw your shoes under your bed.

[Progeny]

I also tend to discourage drinking in all its forms, but certainly don't condemn those who drink, and I acknowledge that anything can be enjoyed when enjoyed in moderation.

So I would say, as most seem to be saying here, that drinking is an acceptable vice. However, drinking to get drunk... That's a much different story. I am vehemently opposed to drinking for that purpose, and to allowing yourself to become drunk at all, for that matter. What possible benefit is involved in numbing your mind in a pool of alcohol? You lose control over yourself, you will likely end up doing something you regret, be it minor (throwing up on your girlfriend's shoes / trying to flirt with the family cat) or devastatingly major (getting someone pregnant / getting into a fatal accident). And as icing on the cake... hangover.

Hey, hey! Where's the bad? :ale:

[Lazarus]

Please allow me to throw a cultural wrench into the machinery for a bit. I live in Japan where drinking to excess is not only tolerated but in many circumstances encouraged for the purpose of breaking down the normally staid and formal relationships between bosses and coworkers. Many events are scheduled during the course of the year in which you are pretty much expected to imbibe even to the point of being drunk. Japanese generally do not pour themselves drinks, but receive drinks from others as a sign of camraderie and as a way of asking you to overlook any harshness that has crept into the relationship due to work related difficulties. If your boss pours you a full glass of sake, it is best to receive it or else you will end up humiliating him in public. Naturally, that would not be a good thing to do, especially in Japan. Except for drunk driving, Japanese culture and law generally overlook any nuisance a drunk might make of himself in public and it is not uncommon to see drunk salarymen riding the subways or stumbling home from work after an evening out with his coworkers. Going out with one's coworkers, I might add, is considered part of the job and it is a brave salaryman who opts out of pub crawling with his fellow workers. I understand that living Christianity requires one to be counter cultural in many ways. I also believe this is an aspect of Japanese culture that Christians can and should challenge. Nevertheless, there is a real price to be paid, with severe consequences, if a Japanese Christian refuses to fully participate in these office rituals. What should a pastor tell his flock to help them navigate this particular shoal of destruction in Japanese society?

[Teallaura]

It's hard to fill a full glass. Unless you're genuinely a tee totaler simply accept it - but don't do more than sip on it slowly.

Also, ask the Japanese version of AA - surely they have some tips on the matter?

[Sparko]

ish it a shin ta posht drunkkk? :alky: