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whag
09-01-2015, 07:12 PM
The answer to the following questions can potentially defang Problem of Evil arguments. If animal death is merely a negative property of the universe that balances and gives continuity to nature, what does that say about Heaven? If it's possible to have an environment that's all positive--IOW, all yin and no yang--why wasn't that the original environment? Moreover, if a "run up" environment (Earth from creation to apocalypse) was necessary as a precursor to establish an all-positive environment (Heaven), why are human beings blamed for the state of affairs in the run up? The precursor had to unfold.

Wouldn't that make a "fall" of sorts inevitable anyway, since a prior uglier state of affairs was necessary to bring in a tear-free kingdom?

The Pixie
09-02-2015, 12:44 AM
The answer to the following questions can potentially defang Problem of Evil arguments. If animal death is merely a negative property of the universe that balances and gives continuity to nature, what does that say about Heaven? If it's possible to have an environment that's all positive--IOW, all yin and no yang--why wasn't that the original environment? Moreover, if a "run up" environment (Earth from creation to apocalypse) was necessary as a precursor to establish an all-positive environment (Heaven), why are human beings blamed for the state of affairs in the run up? The precursor had to unfold.

Wouldn't that make a "fall" of sorts inevitable anyway, since a prior uglier state of affairs was necessary to bring in a tear-free kingdom?
Perhaps hell is the yang. All the pleasures in heaven are only possible because more people are suffering in hell. Kind of like in Roman society, the elite lived in luxury at the expense of the slaves living in horror. But that was fine and perfectly moral, because none of important people were slaves.

whag
09-02-2015, 06:52 AM
Perhaps hell is the yang. All the pleasures in heaven are only possible because more people are suffering in hell. Kind of like in Roman society, the elite lived in luxury at the expense of the slaves living in horror. But that was fine and perfectly moral, because none of important people were slaves.

This would make a cool Twilight Zone-ish movie.

Synopsis: a few saints discover that the true purpose of Hell was to provide a counterbalance that keeps the engine of reality running. Nauseated by the news, they hatch the plan "Rebellion 3.0" with the purpose of ending the perpetual suffering of non-Christian infidels, many of whom are their friends and loved ones. They seek to find the hidden switch to turn off the fires of Hell. "R3" becomes a sacrificial act that ends their party but also existence itself which demands a constant balance of tears and pleasure to persist. Fade to black.

Cow Poke
09-02-2015, 07:21 AM
The answer to the following questions can potentially defang Problem of Evil arguments. If animal death is merely a negative property of the universe that balances and gives continuity to nature...

And what if it's not? :huh:

whag
09-02-2015, 07:24 AM
And what if it's not? :huh:

What if the arguments for PoE aren't defanged by the Christian answer to this conundrum? We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Cow Poke
09-02-2015, 07:30 AM
What if the arguments for PoE aren't defanged by the Christian answer to this conundrum?

No, I'm wondering about your "animal death is merely a negative property of the universe" premise.

whag
09-02-2015, 07:36 AM
I'm approaching it from the standpoint of your claim that death isn't a thing that was invented but merely an absence.

You, 37818, and Adrift summarized it well here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?8198-Christian-Necrophobes&p=237358&viewfull=1#post237358

Cow Poke
09-02-2015, 07:41 AM
I'm approaching it from the standpoint of your claim that death isn't a thing that was invented but merely an absence.

Ah, you could have said so! :smile:


You, 37818, and Adrift summarized it well here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?8198-Christian-Necrophobes&p=237358&viewfull=1#post237358

So, for the record, what I actually said (as in the quote you provided (which I appreciate)) was... "I think this is pretty much a red herring. It's like saying God created dark. Dark is the absence of light, which God created. Death is the absences of life, which God created."

I'm just not sure how you turned that into "animal death is merely a negative property of the universe". :shrug:

whag
09-02-2015, 07:46 AM
Ah, you could have said so! :smile:



So, for the record, what I actually said (as in the quote you provided (which I appreciate)) was... "I think this is pretty much a red herring. It's like saying God created dark. Dark is the absence of light, which God created. Death is the absences of life, which God created."

I'm just not sure how you turned that into "animal death is merely a negative property of the universe". :shrug:

Okay. Adrift quoted your statement as being in accord with Maimonides' explanation for the existence of natural evil. As you don't agree with it, we can't really discuss the conundrum specified in my OP.

Cow Poke
09-02-2015, 07:47 AM
Okay. Adrift quoted your statement as being in accord with Maimonides' explanation for the existence of natural evil. As you don't agree with it, we can't really discuss the conundrum specified in my OP.

I don't know if I agree with it or not - hadn't really thought about it, as it's not something I worry about. :smile:

Carry on!

whag
09-02-2015, 08:25 AM
I don't know if I agree with it or not - hadn't really thought about it, as it's not something I worry about. :smile:

Carry on!

Interest in the explanations of reality has nothing to do with worry. PoE is a philosophical topic of discussion meant to address particular conundrums, such as why does natural evil exist now and why won't it exist in the next world.

Cow Poke
09-02-2015, 08:27 AM
Interest in the explanations of reality has nothing to do with worry.

OK, lemme rephrase --- it's nothing that interests me.


PoE is a philosophical topic of discussion meant to address particular conundrums, such as why does natural evil exist now and why won't it exist in the next world.

Yeah, like I said....

Carry on!