What if (The U-boats had closed the Atlantic)

[Durthorin]

The purpose of the Battle of the Atlantic was for the German u-boats to cut off external resources from England

Consider what if the Type XXI Elektroboat U-Boat had come into production at or near the begining of the Battle of the Atlantic.

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxi.shtml

[Nicholas]

The purpose of the Battle of the Atlantic was for the German u-boats to cut off external resources from England

Consider what if the Type XXI Elektroboat U-Boat had come into production at or near the begining of the Battle of the Atlantic.

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxi.shtml


I've heard quite a bit about the Type XXI and I have to say that if it had entered production for the Battle of the Atlantic it could very likely have become a major headache for the Allies.

[Durthorin]

I've heard quite a bit about the Type XXI and I have to say that if it had entered production for the Battle of the Atlantic it could very likely have become a major headache for the Allies.

Major Headache.. I thinkt he XXI would have closed the Atlantic. Even tho only two of them saw service in the war they were in many ways the first truly modren subs.. add in factors like accurate reliable torpedos and even the experimental submarine launched missles.

[TheAnalogman]

Major Headache.. I thinkt he XXI would have closed the Atlantic. Even tho only two of them saw service in the war they were in many ways the first truly modren subs.. add in factors like accurate reliable torpedos and even the experimental submarine launched missles.

This is sooo interesting. Visiting the U505 several times in Chicago and then visiting the US sub in Philly (can't remember the name) makes one really wonder if the Nazis, with a few more years would have blockaded the Atlantic.

[Nicholas]

Major Headache.. I thinkt he XXI would have closed the Atlantic. Even tho only two of them saw service in the war they were in many ways the first truly modren subs.. add in factors like accurate reliable torpedos and even the experimental submarine launched missles.

You'll find no disagreement from me on this, but the main question I have is whether they could have destroyed ships faster than the US could produce them.

[Durthorin]

You'll find no disagreement from me on this, but the main question I have is whether they could have destroyed ships faster than the US could produce them.

Given the XXI's technology, I think they could. They came very close even with the older tech and wolf pack tactics. Given the XXI and its ability to fire from over a 100 meters down it would have been very hard to stop if at all. Adding in a factor that the Germans were experimenting and had successfully launched V1s from a submarine. They even had plans on the board for sea launched V2 pods. As a factor in the what if, this would have required the germans to concentrate a lot of technology and capital on the kriegsmarine sub fleet. But if they had closing the Atlantic would have been the least of the problems when coastal cities in the US started taking hits from sea launched V weapons.

[Nicholas]

Given the XXI's technology, I think they could. They came very close even with the older tech and wolf pack tactics. Given the XXI and its ability to fire from over a 100 meters down it would have been very hard to stop if at all. Adding in a factor that the Germans were experimenting and had successfully launched V1s from a submarine. They even had plans on the board for sea launched V2 pods. As a factor in the what if, this would have required the germans to concentrate a lot of technology and capital on the kriegsmarine sub fleet. But if they had closing the Atlantic would have been the least of the problems when coastal cities in the US started taking hits from sea launched V weapons.

I'd also heard about this, and but along with launching V1 and V2 more conventional subarmines could have done damage with their main gun. If memory serves, a Japanese submarine on atleast one occasion shelled US territory near Santa Barbara, California. If this tactic had been used more often by the Axis I would imagine it would have been a blow to American morale if it didn't actually cause serious damage.

[Durthorin]

I'd also heard about this, and but along with launching V1 and V2 more conventional subarmines could have done damage with their main gun. If memory serves, a Japanese submarine on atleast one occasion shelled US territory near Santa Barbara, California. If this tactic had been used more often by the Axis I would imagine it would have been a blow to American morale if it didn't actually cause serious damage.

I to remember that. An Axis ability to hit the US would have down two things I think, 1. We would have been more likly to hold back resources for home defense aircraft, ships and men. 2. One of the overriding factors in Axis defeat was the unrestricted production of American factories. A V1 in the factory would tend to shut down production. Also as you said morale would have taken a major impact.

[Nicholas]

I to remember that. An Axis ability to hit the US would have down two things I think, 1. We would have been more likly to hold back resources for home defense aircraft, ships and men. 2. One of the overriding factors in Axis defeat was the unrestricted production of American factories. A V1 in the factory would tend to shut down production. Also as you said morale would have taken a major impact.

The main problem I see was that the V1 and V2 were more or less used as terror weapons, and the V1 on one hand could be intercepted and the V2 on the other wouldn't necessarily hit the target. I believe he one time the V2 was used as a tactical weapon was when they attempted to use one against the Ludendorff Bridge which had been captured by the allies, but the missile missed the target.

[Dave G]

I'm unfamiliar with the phraseology you're using..."closing the Atlantic." What would that mean practically? Blockading the Englisn Channel? A few more subs up north?
Help me to understand, cause the Atlantic is huge.

[Durthorin]

The main problem I see was that the V1 and V2 were more or less used as terror weapons, and the V1 on one hand could be intercepted and the V2 on the other wouldn't necessarily hit the target. I believe he one time the V2 was used as a tactical weapon was when they attempted to use one against the Ludendorff Bridge which had been captured by the allies, but the missile missed the target.

Given the technology of the day, your talking more along the lines of the V1 as a sea launched system. Guidance could have been provided radio for short ranges which would have been adquate to hit port cities such as New York, Boston and San Francisco. The purpose would have been to disrupt ship construction & freight transport. Also given the placement of oil refineries and storage areas.. a single V1 into a tank farm would have a effect all out of preportion to the weapon used. While the V1 could be intercepted it required time and radar vectoring to it. The US at the time did not have the radar systems to detect such launches along its coast.. and spendingt he resources to build such a network would have again been a drain on resources that couldn't have been used on other fronts vs the Axis. In effect it would have required the US military and civilian goverment to speand a great amont of resources to protect against a cheap threat.

At the same time if we are saying the Germans won the Battle of the Atlantic with the type XXI, then the next question is how was England going to hold out? The Battle of Britian for example required a great amount of fuel and material for fighter aircraft to beat back the Luftwaffe. With no fuel getting into England or minimal fuel..what would have been the effect Also one has to add in that a large amount of supplies were being shipped not just to England via the Atlantic but to Russia.

Closing the Atlantic would have bought the Germans time and might have taken England out of the war for all intents. Also as a later factor if England was effectivly cut off then the air war against Germany ie the long range heavy bombing would have been stopped.

[Durthorin]

I'm unfamiliar with the phraseology you're using..."closing the Atlantic." What would that mean practically? Blockading the Englisn Channel? A few more subs up north?
Help me to understand, cause the Atlantic is huge.

From a practical standpoint it would have meant reducing the flow of raw materials, men and goods into England shipped via the Atlantic. What we've discussed is the German type XXI u-boat doing this. The sub itself it came into production late in the war but its inovations gave the only two that made it into the field an impact greater than their numbers. Like many navies of the time the Kriegsmarine had its factions. Carrier, Surface and Submarine fleets. germany in fact never did get a functional carrier. The whatif here starts with the given that the XXI came into production in late 39 to 40 and in large enough numbers to replace the existing older model U-boats.

[Nicholas]

Given the technology of the day, your talking more along the lines of the V1 as a sea launched system. Guidance could have been provided radio for short ranges which would have been adquate to hit port cities such as New York, Boston and San Francisco. The purpose would have been to disrupt ship construction & freight transport. Also given the placement of oil refineries and storage areas.. a single V1 into a tank farm would have a effect all out of preportion to the weapon used. While the V1 could be intercepted it required time and radar vectoring to it. The US at the time did not have the radar systems to detect such launches along its coast.. and spendingt he resources to build such a network would have again been a drain on resources that couldn't have been used on other fronts vs the Axis. In effect it would have required the US military and civilian goverment to speand a great amont of resources to protect against a cheap threat.

At the same time if we are saying the Germans won the Battle of the Atlantic with the type XXI, then the next question is how was England going to hold out? The Battle of Britian for example required a great amount of fuel and material for fighter aircraft to beat back the Luftwaffe. With no fuel getting into England or minimal fuel..what would have been the effect Also one has to add in that a large amount of supplies were being shipped not just to England via the Atlantic but to Russia.

Closing the Atlantic would have bought the Germans time and might have taken England out of the war for all intents. Also as a later factor if England was effectivly cut off then the air war against Germany ie the long range heavy bombing would have been stopped.

Whether England could hold out would also depend on whether Hitler still invades the Soviet Union. Having to divert resources to the east would influence how long England might have been able to last.

[Durthorin]

Whether England could hold out would also depend on whether Hitler still invades the Soviet Union. Having to divert resources to the east would influence how long England might have been able to last.


Which brings up another question. Why did he invade Russia? They had a treaty, one the Russians seemed to be following, Stalin had no intent to attack Germany.. they didn't need the resources..

[Darth Executor]

I think if submarines became that much of a threat the allies would be forced to come up with their own designs.

[Durthorin]

I think if submarines became that much of a threat the allies would be forced to come up with their own designs.

Submarines did become that much of a threat thruout the war. The allies actual response was to spend a large amount of money and time developing anti-submarine tactics. Better sonar, air dropped depth charges etc. The factors that make the XXI so interesting is in a sense she was the first true submarine designed to operate underwater for extended periods of time, faster under water than on the surface etc.. Up until her most subs were designed according to some naval historians to be torpedo boats that could submerge for brief periods of time.

The US Navy used the Gato class and Balao class for the most part in the Pacific and managed to seriously impare if not shut down Japanese merchant shipping. If you look at the comparision the XXI is frighteningly more advanced.. for example:

-----------------XXI--------------------------- Balao
submerged speed 17.2 knots ...........................8.75 knots
surface speed ....15.7 knots ...........................20.75 knots
max depth .........919ft ..................................400ft

In addition the XXI had the ability with a hydralic reload system to fire more torpedos faster (rate of fire) than any other sub plus the ability to fire from 160 feet below the surface.. Other subs of the period had to get to periscope depth sight a target and do the classic movie attack approach. Which made them detecable by patrol aircraft etc.. the XXI could lock on with an advanced sonar system and fire from a position that was essentially invisiable.

[Nicholas]

Which brings up another question. Why did he invade Russia? They had a treaty, one the Russians seemed to be following, Stalin had no intent to attack Germany.. they didn't need the resources..


He invaded Russia because he wanted to expand his empire to the east in order to provide germans with more living space.

[Durthorin]

He invaded Russia because he wanted to expand his empire to the east in order to provide germans with more living space.

Actually, some argument has been made that he didn't need the space right then. He'd already aquired more space than he could use for a while between France and certain of the slavic states like Poland.

[Nicholas]

Actually, some argument has been made that he didn't need the space right then. He'd already aquired more space than he could use for a while between France and certain of the slavic states like Poland.

From my understanding that wasn't the case. My current understanding is that his plan was to keep Russia out of the war until he got France and Britain out of the way in order to avoid a two front war. Just about everything that I've read points to his conquest of France being as much revenge for World War One as anything else, but he had always been setting his eyes to expand eastward.

[Darth Executor]

I read a WW2 book a while ago that contained a map with submarine/vessel sinking in the Atlantic. I can't find an online version (well, I found one but I think I have to pay to get it so I didn't bother), but from what I remember most of the submarines and allied vessels were sunk very close to land. Most were destroyed when they left south America and the US, and most of what was left were destroyed near the British isles. I suspect that the reason for doing this is because it's much easier to locate ports, stalk ships until they're a safe distance from land then destroy them. The Atlantic is big and wandering around it hoping to stumble on a ship wasn't very efficient. Of course, if the enemy hunts you near land, the obvious response is to use your ability to perform easy maintenance on defensive systems or set up traps with considerably less effort to combat the new submarines, although I'm not exactly sure how that would work. If such ideas were put forth and proved effective, the Germans would have been forced to (partially) blindly look for ships further from the shore, which would have reduced their efficiency, perhaps enough to allow a reasonable ammount of supplies to arrive.

[Durthorin]

I read a WW2 book a while ago that contained a map with submarine/vessel sinking in the Atlantic. I can't find an online version (well, I found one but I think I have to pay to get it so I didn't bother), but from what I remember most of the submarines and allied vessels were sunk very close to land. Most were destroyed when they left south America and the US, and most of what was left were destroyed near the British isles. I suspect that the reason for doing this is because it's much easier to locate ports, stalk ships until they're a safe distance from land then destroy them. The Atlantic is big and wandering around it hoping to stumble on a ship wasn't very efficient. Of course, if the enemy hunts you near land, the obvious response is to use your ability to perform easy maintenance on defensive systems or set up traps with considerably less effort to combat the new submarines, although I'm not exactly sure how that would work. If such ideas were put forth and proved effective, the Germans would have been forced to (partially) blindly look for ships further from the shore, which would have reduced their efficiency, perhaps enough to allow a reasonable ammount of supplies to arrive.


Historically the Germans didn't have that hard a time locating convoys at sea. In many ways while the Atlantic is vast the trade routes vessels take are pretty much defined by their fuel and range. German inteligence often knew convoy routes ahead of time.. when they didn't wolf packs would spread out across the trade lanes and wait until one made contact, signal the others and launch the attack at night. Intercepting near ports was also easy and this is were aircraft scouting for subs near the surface came into play. The factors that made the XXI so dangerous would have negated a lot of this.. being able to fire torpedos from 100 meters down is a vast advantage. Convoys moved along pretty defined routes in many cases.

http://www.usmm.org/ww2.html

[Durthorin]

From my understanding that wasn't the case. My current understanding is that his plan was to keep Russia out of the war until he got France and Britain out of the way in order to avoid a two front war. Just about everything that I've read points to his conquest of France being as much revenge for World War One as anything else, but he had always been setting his eyes to expand eastward.

But the point was the UK wasn't out.

[Nicholas]

But the point was the UK wasn't out.

Which was why it can be considered one of his major blunders.

[Durthorin]

Which was why it can be considered one of his major blunders.

Considering Stalin was told by the Soviet Inteligence it was going to happen, byt he Allies and ordered his own people not to prepare and refused to believe it. Hitler almost pulled it off, his primary fault was in micro-managing his own generals and not allowing them to run the advance. The blunder given Stalin's reaction was less in ordering the attack than mismanging it.

[Nicholas]

Considering Stalin was told by the Soviet Inteligence it was going to happen, byt he Allies and ordered his own people not to prepare and refused to believe it. Hitler almost pulled it off, his primary fault was in micro-managing his own generals and not allowing them to run the advance. The blunder given Stalin's reaction was less in ordering the attack than mismanging it.

There was recently an interesting special on the Military Channel about the mental battle between Churchill and Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin, Roosevelt and Stalin, and Hitler and Stalin. It was really very interesting and showed that one of the possible reasons for Stalin's mismanagement was that he thought that the British were trying to play him and Hitler off of each other in order to get rid of them both. It also suggested that Stalin was an extremely logical person and he didn't think Hitler would do something so irrational as invading the Soviet Union before Britain was finished off.

[Mr. Christopher]

The purpose of the Battle of the Atlantic was for the German u-boats to cut off external resources from England

Consider what if the Type XXI Elektroboat U-Boat had come into production at or near the begining of the Battle of the Atlantic.

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxi.shtml


If they did, I guess we'll all be speaking German LOL!

[djconklin]

A V1 in the factory would tend to shut down production.

We had factories all over the US--they could hit even a significant portion of them. And even with us bombing them night and day they were raising production till the final 6 months or so. As a terror weapon and witholding production (from the Pacific first) being shipped to Britain ...

[Nicholas]

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