What is Jesus relationship to God?

[mickiel]

There are many interpitations of Christ being God himself, and the way this view is taught, it does not cancel out God, it blends him and Christ together in some weird symbiosis. I thought i would give a breif description of the truth concerning Christ relation to God.

Jesus was not created, he was birthed by God. Now God is not female, nor is he male, he is neither, he is creator and substainer. But he can give birth. There is a distinct difference in God createing something, and him giving birth to something. Angels were created, Jesus was birthed. Mankind will be actually both. Jesus owes his very existance to God- John 6:57. Jesus is FROM God, John 7:29, and 8:42. Jesus here is describing his birth. He proceeded forth and came from God. He , in John 3:16, is called the "begottened" son, a clear reference to birth. In John 1:18, he is again called begottened, but then his orgin is shown to be the "bosom" of God. He came from inside God, meaning he is composed of the same thing God is, if we can call it composition. Whatever God is, Jesus is the same. But HE IS NOT THE SAME BEING AS GOD, he is a distinct individual, meaning he is one, just like each of us are one.

He is from God, has Gods exact genectic or cellular makeup, what ever that is, so when we see him, we have seen God. This means Jesus actually "looks" like God, and has Gods exact nature. They have a perfect father son relationship. Now study the 5-8th verses of John chapter 3. You must rely on the spirit here to see this. Unless one is born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This INCLUDES Jesus. Angels, the 24 elders, it does not matter, even mankind. Now this is a big jump for some i know, but God has many componants "INSIDE" of him, two being the water of life and his Spirits. God is composed of fire, water, wind, thunder, and pure energy. All these are INSIDE OF HIM. Nothingelse is like this. Jesus was baptized inside of God, then brought out of him and given protozoan, or self determinant eternal life.

Angels were born of the spirit and the river of life in heaven, but they were not birthed. Jesus is the "natural son of God", its just that simple. He is a obedient son. Jesus actually has Gods complette trust, God loves him very very much. He is pleased with Christ. I think mankind exist because of Jesus desire to have a family like he and God. Jesus wanted God to have more children. This is the glory of the plan of salvation, we will be actual children of a God. Greater than angels, BUT , BUT, we, like Christ, like angels, like all life, MUST FOREVER SERVE GOD THE FATHER. That is the definition of Christ whole existance, to serve God. This is what complette happiness is all about.

Now in John 5:26, God has given Jesus inherant life, and the responsibility to save mankind. In verse 30, Jesus destroys the free will doctrine, setting the example that christians ignore, selfless will. Jesus lives to do the fathers bidding. That will never change. Jesus is in perfect submission to God, he is not God, he is his son. Christians teach the oppisite. In 6:30, Jesus gives an amazeing prophecy, of all the humans God has given him, he will loose not one of them. Christians disbelieve that also. How many humans has God given him, John 17:2, ALL OF THEM.

It pleases God for Jesus to save us all, God is not , has not, willed any to hell fire for eternity, somethingelse christians contridict. This is why i view christians as the greatest enemy of Christ. Strangely ironic. The very servants of Christ, his actual enemys. They are not anti-christ, they are blinded by lack of knowledge.

So Jesus is Gods son, he has a parental relationship with God, totally in his service. God has entrusted all things to Christ, Jesus can actually speak FOR God. Awesome responsibility, and Jesus was given the assignment to become the savior of the world, christians teach he will fail in that assignment.

[Salty]

He is from God, has Gods exact genectic or cellular makeup, what ever that is, so when we see him, we have seen God. This means Jesus actually "looks" like God, and has Gods exact nature.

God is spirit, hence He has no cellular structure or DNA for Jesus to take on.

God is composed of fire, water, wind, thunder, and pure energy.

What is your source for this assertion?

Jesus was baptized inside of God...

I thought he was baptized in the Jordan River. Silly me.

Jesus is the "natural son of God"

How can Jesus be God's only begotten when God told us that Israel is God's firstborn son? (Exodus 4:22)

Jesus ... is not God

I can agree with that 100%.

[AVmetro]

What is Jesus relationship to God?

His Son. :crackup:

[AVmetro]

Jesus was not created, he was birthed by God. Now God is not female, nor is he male, he is neither, he is creator and substainer. But he can give birth. There is a distinct difference in God createing something, and him giving birth to something. Angels were created, Jesus was birthed. Mankind will be actually both. Jesus owes his very existance to God- John 6:57. Jesus is FROM God, John 7:29, and 8:42. Jesus here is describing his birth. He proceeded forth and came from God. He , in John 3:16, is called the "begottened" son, a clear reference to birth. In John 1:18, he is again called begottened, but then his orgin is shown to be the "bosom" of God. He came from inside God, meaning he is composed of the same thing God is, if we can call it composition. Whatever God is, Jesus is the same. But HE IS NOT THE SAME BEING AS GOD, he is a distinct individual, meaning he is one, just like each of us are one.

I don't think para necessitates that Christ be "born" from the Father. Look it up lexically. Also, see Jn1:1. He was WITH the Father in the beginning which is the idea expressed in vs18. Not the same word but the same idea can be derived.

On monogenhV:

monogenhV monogenes; gen. monogenous, masc. -fem., neut. monogenon, from monos (3441), only, and genos (1085), stock.
Unique, one of a kind, one and only. The only one of the family (Luke 7:12 referring to the only son of his mother; 8:42, the daughter of Jairus; Luke 9:38, the demoniac boy). John alone uses monogenes to describe the relation of Jesus to God the Father, presenting Him as the unique one, the only one (monos) of a class or kind (genos), in the discussion of the realationship of the Son to the Father (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). Genos, from which genes in monogenes is derived, means race, stock, family, class or kind, and geno comes from ginomai (1096), become, as in John 1:14, "And the Word became [egeneto] flesh." This in in distinction from gennao (1080), to beget, engender or create. The noun from gennao is gennema (1080), the result of birth. So then, the word means one of a kind or unique. There are two schools of thought regarding the meaning of this term. The first view, which began with Origen, teaches that Christ's unique Sonship and His generation by the Father are eternal being predicated of Him in respect to His participation in the Godhead. Although monogenes was traditionally cited in proof of this explanation, modern proponents, recognizing the mistaken identification of genes as a derivative of gennao instead of genos, understand the word to be descriptive of the kind of Sonship Christ possesses and not of the process establishing such a relationship. This would serve to distinguish the Sonship of Christ to God from that spoken of other being, e.g. Adam (Luke 3:28), angels (Job1:6), or believers (John 1:12). The last view teaches that Chris's uniwque Sonship and generation by the Father are predicated of Him in respect to the incarnation. The proponents of this interpretation unequivocally affirm the triune nature of the Godhead and Christ's diety teaching that it is the word logos (3056), Word, which designates His personage within the Godhead. Christ's Sonship expresses an economical relationship between the Word and the Father assumed via the incarnation. This stands in fulfillment of OT prophecies which identify Christ as both human, descending from David, and divine, originating from God. Like David and the other kings descending from him, Christ is the Son of God by position (2Sam. 7:14), but unlike them and because of His divine nature, He is par excellence the Son of God by nature (Psalm 2:7; Heb. 1:5). Thus the appellation referes to the incarnate Word, God made flesh, not simply the preincarnate Word. Therefore, monogenes can be held as syn. with the God-Man. Jesus was the only such one ever, in distinction with the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Triune God.
He is never called teknon Theou (teknon [5043], child; Theou [2316], of God) as the believers are (John 1:12; 11:52; 1 John 3:1,2,10; 5:2). In John 5:18, Jesus called God His very own (idion [2398]) Father. To Jesus, God was not a Father as He is to us. See John 20:17. He never spoke of God as the common Father of Him and believers. The term monogenes also occurs in Heb. 11:17.

[The Complete Word Study Dictionary by Spiros Zodhiates p.996]

"No one has seen God at any time; the 'monogenhV God' who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."

>

Forgive any typos.

God bless

[Salty]

mickiel:

What is Jesus relationship to God?

IronMetro:

His Son.

Hi, IronMetro. Thanks for the pearls, and for the welcome, too. :hi:

After that gift, I hate to disagree with you, but... :blush:

I can't agree with your statement, at least not in the same way as you meant it.

I will agree that, as a Jew, Jesus was a son of God, in the exact same way all Jews are sons of God (assuming, of course, that Jesus existed at all, but that's a whole 'nother thread).

But I understand that you mean it differently, i.e., that Jesus was God's son, as in directly begotten in some fashion before the foundation of the world. Which makes me wonder how you resolve that belief with God's statement to Pharaoh through Moshe, "And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, Yisra'el is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto you, Let my son go, that he may serve me." (Exodus 4:22)? Here God is declaring that Israel is His firstborn son, which could not be true if Jesus was born first.

You want to take those pearls back now? :)

[AVmetro]

Yesterday @ 10:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=173002#post173002)
Salty:



Hi, IronMetro. Thanks for the pearls, and for the welcome, too. :hi:

[......]

You want to take those pearls back now? :)

Haha. I already followed the link to your site before I even gave those. So I already knew your theological position :wink:. I like to give those out to new members to help them feel welcome. And you are! :smile: Thanks for being at TWeb.

[AVmetro]

I will agree that, as a Jew, Jesus was a son of God, in the exact same way all Jews are sons of God.

I take it from passages such as John5:18; 19:7 etc. that it denotes something more than your generic "son". But that is probably another issue as well.

(assuming, of course, that Jesus existed at all, but that's a whole 'nother thread)

Yeah, that might be right up JPH's alley, however. I know from preusing your site that you're most likely not a "fence-sitter" on these issues but if your interested in researching topics such as the above quoted, check out www.tektonics.org i.e. "Shattering the Christ Myth (http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html)", et al.

As for debating that topic; atheism/skepticism (which is what I would class that under) aren't my "area" to put it bluntly. :wink:

But I understand that you mean it differently, i.e., that Jesus was God's son, as in directly begotten in some fashion before the foundation of the world.

I don't believe Christ to be "begotten" in any way in regards to being a 'created being' (as Mickiel believes, the JWs, etc). Hence my citation from Zodhiates. The only such 'begetting' I would vouch for would be the "eternal begetting" mentioned of Origen.

Though even that I do not find necessary for Christ to be the "Son" of God. Simply the relationship held between Him and the Father.

Which makes me wonder how you resolve that belief with God's statement to Pharaoh through Moshe, "And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, Yisra'el is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto you, Let my son go, that he may serve me." (Exodus 4:22)? Here God is declaring that Israel is His firstborn son, which could not be true if Jesus was born first.

I take "firstborn" to be a title of preeminence. We know this from the fact that Israel was not the first nation created by God (e.g. He raised up Egypt etc).

Additionally, for example, looking in the OT we see God speak in reference to King David:

"He shall cry to Me, My Father, You are my God, and the rock of my salvation. And I will make Him My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth." Ps89:26-27 LITV

"He shall call unto Me: Thou art my Father, my G-d, and the rock of my salvation. I also will appoint him first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth." Ps89:27-28 JPS

And of course I take this as a prototype/antitype situation regarding Christ (Cf.Col1:15).

I hope that helps a little in clarifying my stance.

God bless you!,
Jeremiah

[Thomas2003]

Dear Mickiel,

You have some serious problems in your beliefs, you are not a Christian sir.

Jesus Christ is God manifested in human flesh, while He was begotten of God it is simply a proceeding from the Father, but to deny He is God of very God is deny the entirety of the Christian Faith and be lost. He was not born of God because He is God - the begatting is the incarnation, not the procession. He was begotten in enternity and has always been Jesus Christ, the express image of God Himself, before the foundation of the world.

This doctrinal work has been done for centuries, to misunderstand this at the level at which you do convinces me you do from a deep seated intent to pervert the Truth and hold it in unrighteousness. I would suggest you repent of this, your biggest error - if there is any sincerity in your beliefs - is to presume you have been called to exegete such things. If so, you would have been born in the early Church.

Their are numerous problems in your thinking, not the least being your application of witchcraft as the interpretive principle of the Godhead. You claim He is creator, but you look at Him and interpret Him in terms of His creation, divinizing it. You are simply practicing sorcerey in the name of Christ and claiming anyone who doesn't have the spirit of anti-Christ cannot properly interpret the Scripture to arrive at your conclusions.

If you wish to be saved, you'll repent of this in its entirety and join a Christian Church and submit to its elders and be taught the Christian Faith.

Sincerely,


Thomas

[mickiel]

No, i am not christian, i am either a fool, lost or enlightened, at times i am unsure myself. Right now, i just don't know. Either i have been deceived, or we all have, but i am asking God to show me, this is what keeps comming to my mind. Brother, either the whole of christianity is deceived and full of deception, or i just am. At this time im my life,i am concerned, but very confused at times. I am just not sure what to believe sometimes. But those things i have writtened is what i see in the bible. If i am a heritic, i have asked God to deal with that, who wants to be a fool. But if what i see is truth, i cannot return to lies. Right now my life feels worthless.

[David O]

Mickiel is an honorable man who is paying attention to a lot of very important things. I believe he will do well. Speak confidently to him. He hears what a lot of people miss.

1 John 4:1-4 says who Jesus is.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 10:25 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=174622#post174622)
David O:

Mickiel is an honorable man who is paying attention to a lot of very important things. I believe he will do well. Speak confidently to him. He hears what a lot of people miss.

1 John 4:1-4 says who Jesus is.


I am honored.

Still, there are a lot of people missing things and i think i know who is behind it. It is a great power, and it is not satan. Rom. 11:32 speaks volumes. If what i believe is true, the reason why christians, or anyone for that matter, cannot see these things i write, its because God himself has blinded them. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. They see, but they see doctrines actually formulated by men, and call that God. They want to see, spend their lives in actual worship, but are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. If what i believe is true, the whole world is deceived, but thats what the bible says in Rev. 12:9, its just that no one believes it. People think they are exempt from that. Not understanding God, they have established a long developed pattern of self righteousness, and really do not submit themselves to Gods standard because they don't know it. It sounds like heresey to them.

My time here is close to up David O, may you fare well in your journey. This world will continue to wax worse, as will the understanding of men.

[bonehead]

Matthew 28:19

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,...

Acts 2:38

...Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Why do you say your time is close to up Mickiel? Your life is not worthless, Christ does not expect perfection of theology from you, simply faith in him! If you continue to seek him, as your post lead me to believe, your search will never be in vain!

[mickiel]

Today @ 09:24 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=177237#post177237)
bonehead:

Matthew 28:19

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,...

Acts 2:38

...Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Why do you say your time is close to up Mickiel? Your life is not worthless, Christ does not expect perfection of theology from you, simply faith in him! If you continue to seek him, as your post lead me to believe, your search will never be in vain!





I only mean my time at theology web is near up. I loose intrest in places of traditional thought, they offer me no real growth. I am exicited at truth, and this place is dull of hearing , it will continue on its present course. I know my life is not worthless, but i just feel that way at times. Imagine 99% of people believing one thing, and the rest believing the other. I am a part of that 1%. You switch from elation to lonliness each day. Others ask why i even bother with the 99, they know its worthless. I thought knowing truth would be a wonderful thing, i was wrong.

[bonehead]

Its been my observation that there are various views presented at this site, with the debate even among christians. Even many of us are seeking to fine tune our views, and rightly divide the Word of Truth. Don`t let these opposing views run you off, but rather with prayer and study you shall know the truth, and it will make you free! I don`t know it all, and if anyone can prove to me my views clash with the Word, I am all ears myself.

[David O]

Nice knowing you Mickiel. Read the Bible, it is enough because it is living and active. I want you to know God and to not let people get in your way. I admire your effort to hold on to the Truth. A lot, but not all tradition sucks.

[johnnybanano]

08-09-2003 @ 01:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=176204#post176204)
mickiel:




If what i believe is true, the reason why christians, or anyone for that matter, cannot see these things i write, its because God himself has blinded them. There is nothing anyone can do to change that. They want to see, spend their lives in actual worship, but are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I don't really have a problem with God binding "all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." This is the part where I get discouraged:

There is nothing anyone can do to change that.

What if I am listening to you and what you are saying, thoughtfully considering it, and possessing a desire for the truth despite my traditional backgroud? Will God, knowing my sincere desire for truth not reveal it to me, even if I ask with faith?

I am not challenging you. God has certainly deafened ears and hardened hearts in the past. But it is my hope that if I have a sincere desire for truth and faith that I will receive it, then I will have that truth.

Love and Respect

[dizzle]

And you would. I firmly believe that... there are many ways to show why, but God is just and good and loving. We can trust that.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Yesterday @ 03:06 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=193104#post193104)
Dee Dee Warren:

... there are many ways to show why, but God is just and good and loving.
Which is why I have no fear of getting his name wrong.

[rcmiller]

Jesus' relationship to God was/is the same as our own. He was a disciple of God and a fellow humanbeing, though he had an uncommon sense of destiny placed upon him (namely that of being messiah).

[David O]

1 John 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

[mickiel]

What if I am listening to you and what you are saying, thoughtfully considering it, and possessing a desire for the truth despite my traditional backgroud? Will God, knowing my sincere desire for truth not reveal it to me, even if I ask with faith?



The bible mentions those who hunger and thrist for right thinking will be filled, but not when they want, only when God decides. God wants all men, every man to come to understand true knowledge. I believe that to be the unaltered destiny of the totality of all created human beings. I used to think only believers will come to understand God, but i am seeing much more in scripture now. Actually most believers are really spiritually blind and will be placed last in salvation, the unbelieves--or the lost, are who Christ has come for. The scriptures seem to reveal God will open sinners to his truth first, the fools of the world, the worthless, the unwise and unlearned. This is strange, but its what see in the bible.

[David O]

Matthew 22 and 23 really back you up there on that. But remember that Jesus says that the wedding guest without a wedding garment is bound and cast out into the outer darkness. Jesus was telling some of those religious leaders that they weren't going to make it. I believe that you are correct in believing that everyone will come to true knowledge eventually, but if that knowledge is come to without a man's submission to God's authority, it will not save him from hell. The demons know all about God and tremble, but they remain rebels, if we remain rebels, we will be as they are. Every knee will bow, but Today is the day of salvation. Read Romans 10:9,10. Sinners of any language speaking age are capable of understanding that passage (and any other) because spiritual wisdom is received as children receive, and is a gift from God. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I'm glad to see you in here again.

[mickiel]

Today @ 02:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=196900#post196900)
David O:

Matthew 22 and 23 really back you up there on that. But remember that Jesus says that the wedding guest without a wedding garment is bound and cast out into the outer darkness. Jesus was telling some of those religious leaders that they weren't going to make it. I believe that you are correct in believing that everyone will come to true knowledge eventually, but if that knowledge is come to without a man's submission to God's authority, it will not save him from hell. The demons know all about God and tremble, but they remain rebels, if we remain rebels, we will be as they are. Every knee will bow, but Today is the day of salvation. Read Romans 10:9,10. Sinners of any language speaking age are capable of understanding that passage (and any other) because spiritual wisdom is received as children receive, and is a gift from God. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I'm glad to see you in here again.







I believe it can be "A" day of salvation for some. I believe the day of salvation is the event the bible speaks of as the " times of the restoration of all things", when God will heal everything. This day makes more sense to me as the day of salvatin. More people will be saved, which is what i begin to see as Gods will and desire.

[David O]

I believe that God desires that for all men, but Jesus does say that some will be cast out into the outer darkness where the fire doesn't go out, and the worm never dies.

[mickiel]

Today @ 06:09 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=197158#post197158)
David O:

I believe that God desires that for all men, but Jesus does say that some will be cast out into the outer darkness where the fire doesn't go out, and the worm never dies.




Mark 9:49, the very next verse he said EVERYONE will be salted with fire. We must be careful with scripture, this verse seems to indicate either everyone will be thrown into fire, or fire thrown on them. Verse 50 says this salt is good, so this indicates to me the possibility of a positive use of Gods fire, perhaps burning sin right out of a human, or still, it may be included in the born again experience of being changed from human to spirit. The lake of fire, or Gods judgement is frightening to people because of the teachings on hell. Gods judgements are to be desired, not feared. If the lake of fire is benefical, it should never be put out, it may be for the healing of the nations, as is the lake of water in Gods kingdom, or the leaves on certain trees. After we are all healed, we will never get sick again, so what will becme of the water of life, the healing leaves, the lake of fire? The bible is just not clear on this, but there are scriptures that indicate the lake of fire couldnot possibily be for pain forever. Rev. 21:4, and 22:3 proves that. There will NO LONGER BE ANY PAIN or crying, or mourning, there will NO LONGER BE ANY CURSE In my understanding of the bible, this eliminates the lake of fire being used as a perminant curse or a pain amplifier.

If the lake of fire is eternal, which is highly possible, i cannot see it co-existing with God as a sin preserver and the verses in Rev. 21, 22 be relevant. People are thrown into the lake, no doubt of that, they will hurt, no doubt there, but i now question how long they will be in it, and what it will actually do to them. 1 Corinth. 3:15 gives another description of fire being both destrutive and anestic or purifying. Tis seems to show a mans sin being destroyed, but the person themself is still saved. Verse 13 speaks of a "day" this will happen, and shows fire to be revealing of sin and able to "test" people, even more charactheristics of fire revealed "other than torture". Also Jude 1:23, teaches the concept of people being "snatched out of the fire", again hope is given instead of this all impending doom we hear so much. All these scriptures can be twisted as any could, but i am seeing this "iron wall teaching on hell being shot holes in it", so i am no longer closing my mind on it.

[David O]

If you and I agree on Romans 10:9,10, then I'm not concerned about whether we agree about hell.

[mickiel]

Today @ 07:21 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=197249#post197249)
David O:

If you and I agree on Romans 10:9,10, then I'm not concerned about whether we agree about hell.


Very well stated, Romans 10 is entrance to heaven, the core of the gospel, if one disagrees with these verses, thy are in serious denial.

[David O]

Cool.

[OldShepherd]

I beg to differ. Not cool, not cool at all.

Today @ 04:12 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=197232#post197232)
mickiel:

Mark 9:49, the very next verse he said EVERYONE will be salted with fire. We must be careful with scripture, this verse seems to indicate either everyone will be thrown into fire, or fire thrown on them. Verse 50 says this salt is good, so this indicates to me the possibility of a positive use of Gods fire, perhaps burning sin right out of a human, or still, it may be included in the born again experience of being changed from human to spirit.

Let’s look at verse 49, “in-context” that verse is preceded by verses 43-48. Note, carefully all the warnings in this passage.
Mark 9: 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
There are eleven warnings in this passage, “cast into hell,” 3 times, “fire is not quenched,” 5 times, and “worm dieth not,” 3 times. Was Jesus just giving a His followers a Biology lesson about worms that did not die or was Jesus concerned about man’s eternal condition? Why warn mankind eleven times if there is no danger? Also see Matt 5:13 about salt that has lost it’s saltiness, “it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.”
Mt 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
mickiel:
The lake of fire, or Gods judgement is frightening to people because of the teachings on hell. Gods judgements are to be desired, not feared. If the lake of fire is benefical, it should never be put out, it may be for the healing of the nations, as is the lake of water in Gods kingdom, or the leaves on certain trees. After we are all healed, we will never get sick again, so what will becme of the water of life, the healing leaves, the lake of fire? The bible is just not clear on this, but there are scriptures that indicate the lake of fire couldnot possibily be for pain forever. Rev. 21:4, and 22:3 proves that. There will NO LONGER BE ANY PAIN or crying, or mourning, there will NO LONGER BE ANY CURSE In my understanding of the bible, this eliminates the lake of fire being used as a perminant curse or a pain amplifier.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
God will certainly wipe away all the tears, of those who are His, vs. 4, but if you read four more verses you will see that there are many who will not have their tears wiped away, i.e. “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,” these will be cast into the lake of fire that burns with fire and sulphur.: And read Rev 14:11, “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.”

Is this just talking about smoke that rises forever? Is Jesus concerned about rising smoke, or is He concerned about mankind? Note the verse does NOT say “the smoke,” but “the smoke of their torment.” If those being tormented either cease to exist or are taken out of the lake of fire, then the smoke will no longer be “the smoke of their torment,” just simply smoke. And the torment quite plainly endures forever and ever.

mickiel:
If the lake of fire is eternal, which is highly possible, i cannot see it co-existing with God as a sin preserver and the verses in Rev. 21, 22 be relevant. People are thrown into the lake, no doubt of that, they will hurt, no doubt there, but i now question how long they will be in it, and what it will actually do to them. 1 Corinth. 3:15 gives another description of fire being both destrutive and anestic or purifying. Tis seems to show a mans sin being destroyed, but the person themself is still saved. Verse 13 speaks of a day this will happen, and shows fire to be revealing of sin and able to test people, even more charactheristics of fire revealed other than torture.

1 Cor 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

As with all the other passages only one verse has been quoted which, out-of-context, seems to say what you claim. But read the other verses. This letter to the Corinthian church is NOT addressed to the world at large, it is addressed to, “laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, (vs. 9) the temple of God. (vs. 16) Does everybody in the world fit this description? The answer is definitely NOT.

Therefore, God's people, the “laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, the temple of God.,” their work will be tried by fire and work which is not fit for the kingdom will be destroyed but God’s people, will be saved. Note, also verse 17, the entire world will NOT be saved through the fire, because God’s word continues that, “if any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy.”

mickiel:
Also Jude 1:23, teaches the concept of people being snatched out of the fire, again hope is given instead of this all impending doom we hear so much. All these scriptures can be twisted as any could, but i am seeing this iron wall teaching on hell being shot holes in it, so i am no longer closing my mind on it.

Jude does teach the concept of others being snatched from the fire. But Jude does NOT say everyone! See verses 7 and 13, “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” and “reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”
Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
When the verses, you quoted or referred to, are read, in context, it is clear that there is a lake of eternal fire, and the ungodly will spend an eternity in that lake of fire. And the doctrine of Universal Restoration or Salvation is a false doctrine that encourages sin and lawlessness.

[David O]

Yes, to all those Bible references, but there is an order to things. Mickiel and I can disagree on hell, but be brothers in Christ if he accepts the terms of Romans 10:9,10. There are all kinds of doctrines to figure out and it is a joy to get to do it, but what is important right now is the day of salvation. A Christian has the Holy Spirit in him to teach him, my friend is all about learning and I believe that he will be obedient to the Holy Spirit when he belongs to Jesus someday. So its ok to disagree on hell.

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday @ 09:36 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=197881#post197881)
David O:

Yes, to all those Bible references, but there is an order to things. Mickiel and I can disagree on hell, but be brothers in Christ if he accepts the terms of Romans 10:9,10. There are all kinds of doctrines to figure out and it is a joy to get to do it, but what is important right now is the day of salvation. A Christian has the Holy Spirit in him to teach him, my friend is all about learning and I believe that he will be obedient to the Holy Spirit when he belongs to Jesus someday. So its ok to disagree on hell.

There are a number of nonessentials which are claimed to be essential by different denominations. Baptism, for example. Some churches insist on complete immersion. Others hold that sprinkling or pouring is acceptable. Some churches insist that baptism is required for salvation, others do not.

My opposition to the views which have been posted are summed up in the final sentence of my previous post. The doctrine of Universal Redemption or Salvation is a false doctrine which encourages sin and lawlessness. And that is the view I see being put forth.

"There is no hell, there is no penalty for sin. God is a loving Father and would never send his children, regardless of how sinful they may be, to a place of eternal punishment." Since, according to this view, there is no penalty for sin, everyone will be saved in the end, regardless, so why live a righteous life.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[mickiel]

[opposition to the views which have been posted are summed up in the final sentence of my previous post. The doctrine of Universal Redemption or Salvation is a false doctrine which encourages sin and lawlessness. And that is the view I see being put forth.

"There is no hell, there is no penalty for sin. God is a loving Father and would never send his children, regardless of how sinful they may be, to a place of eternal punishment." Since, according to this view, there is no penalty for sin, everyone will be saved in the end, regardless, so why live a righteous life.[/font][/size]
[

I believe in definite penalty for sin, i just refuse infinite punishment for finite offenses, i think it sane for the punishment to end, insane if it never ends. I do not view God as insane. As far as your view in my not taking scripture in context, i disagree with a contextual view of God's word. In my view, the bible is coded, its wisdom, its poetry, its simily, its free verse, its philisofical, its inspired opinon, it is hiddened, it is all these things and more out of context than in. There are times context is very important, times it is not. The bible is here a little , there a little, and then you start getting it, while you are loosing it. This is why i will make no effort to teach it to you, or anyone.


God gains the attention of whom he wills in the way he wishes. My attention is being directed toward what another will not even consider. In Rev. 21:8, the unbelieving shall have their part( or portion) in the lake of fire. Not only them, but i believe the unfaithful servants of God will be placed in the lake also, to have their "portion" too. They will get their many stripes, i just reject the teaching of neverending punishment. We will have our "part", in this fire and brimstone. Ths place "burns", with fire and brimstone. Burns means to combust or to consume. Combustion is the process by which chemicals combine to form new chemicals.

For example; when fire consumes a log in your fireplace , it does not destroy any elements within the log, it merely CHANGES their form. The wood is burnt, causing the chemicals of which the wood is composed to vaporize, mixing with the oxygen in the air to form new chemicals, including water and the gas carbon dioxide. To burn really means to change. The greek word THEION translated means "brimstone", and it also means DEVINE. I am comming to believe that the lake of fire is a place of devine heat and light that PRODUCES CHANGE, as well as being a penal fire.

I am unclear on unquenchable fire, i don't think that is eternal fire. I think unquenchable is a fire that cannot be put out until it has accomplished its purpose,or until it has consumed everything or changed everything there is possible for it to change. Jer. 17:27, these place of Jerusalem were burnt with a fire that cannot be quenched, Jer. 52:13, they were destroyed, God said this fire willnot be quenched. Not by people. This fire is NOT burning today, so it went out by itself. These beliefs in"their worm shall not die, fire not quench", need to be studyied more. God himself is a consuming fire, or he is devine, will cleanse, purify, purge, temper and change things. Heb. 12:29. I begin to see this as the purpose of the lake of fire, its just like God. Godis life, he is also death. But the lake of fire is also the second death, or the death of the FIRST death. God will no longer kill. And to manys dissapointment, he will no longer punish. Why abolish death and continue punishing? Hell is a misunderstanding of what the lake of fire is. I am considering posting just what the lake of fire is, as i learn i may do so.

[young joshua]

08-08-2003 @ 08:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=174470#post174470)
mickiel:

No, i am not christian, i am either a fool, lost or enlightened, at times i am unsure myself. Right now, i just don't know. Either i have been deceived, or we all have, but i am asking God to show me, this is what keeps comming to my mind. Brother, either the whole of christianity is deceived and full of deception, or i just am. At this time im my life,i am concerned, but very confused at times. I am just not sure what to believe sometimes. But those things i have writtened is what i see in the bible. If i am a heritic, i have asked God to deal with that, who wants to be a fool. But if what i see is truth, i cannot return to lies. Right now my life feels worthless.

Worhtless we should all feel, until we discover the truth about God, the truth is God loves us all he is a gracefull God.When we stop seeking him thats when we fail him keep seeking, jesus is the son of god and the comforter of life. See god will never leave or forsake you , but you cant leave of forsake him...my name is Juan and ive been saved for a little while im 22 years old and im from Detroit....e-mail me if you need some questions answered..My e-mail address is juanmerritt@hotmail.com...dont give up...

[themuzicman]

mickel,

What I saw in your last post is that you want to do the thinking for God, rather than understanding God's thinking.

If you seek truth by asserting what you think, and then looking for proof-texts, you will find error very quickly.

Jesus talks very clearly about there being an eternal heaven and an eternal hell, and about people going both places. Now, whether you think God is sane or right in doing that is really pretty irrelevant, because God is the one who makes the rules, not you.

Now, if you believe that the God of the bible is the one true God, then what He says in the context of His ENTIRE Word is true, and we do better to work to understand His truth, rather than make up our own.

So far, you've picked out individual verses here and there to proof text what you think, and haven't really done a good exegesis or good hermeneutics with these passages to show that what you say they mean, they mean.

You also tend to intersperse your own opinions about what God must do or must be, and have failed to support them beyond your own personal feelings.

Saying that God is insane for using eternal punishment is your personal opinion. It's not supported in scripture, it's not a position shared by people on this board, and it doesn't fly without a case being made for it, including good exegesis and hermeneutics.

David and Thomas have brought up several good verses and contexts which you have failed to reconcile to the proof-texts you've provided, and if we're going to have a coherant bible, we need that kind of reconciliation.

It might be a good idea to go back through the responses in this thread, pull together all the response verses that have been given to you, cite them in context, and then explain how they support your position.

Michael

[bar Jonah]

08-10-2003 @ 12:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=177553#post177553)
mickiel:
I only mean my time at theology web is near up. I loose intrest in places of traditional thought, they offer me no real growth.
Traditional? What on earth is traditional about TW?

This site is founded by a preterist (who believes there is no "Great Tribulation" and that the tribulation fulfilled roughly 2,000 years ago) . . . and a Mid-Acts Open Dispensationalist (who believes that Paul's teachings were markedly different from those of Peter, James, John, Jude and most notably Jesus in the gospels... and that we should follow Paul's letters primarily rather than those others... and who believes that God doesn't know everything about the future!)

What about the foundation of this website is "traditional?" :lol:

[mickiel]

[i]Yesterday @ 09:21 PM [What about the foundation of this website is "traditional?" :lol:



I know nothing of the foundation of this website. I respect this website and its tolerance for others views, that sets it apart from others in my view. My judgement is based on the expressed beliefs of those who post here. I hold no quarrell with Dee Dee, nor have criticism of her personally, her work is a good work. I simply take issue with the views of people and consider their views of God to be traditional. Because my mind is not gripped in tradition, i cannot grow when involved with a group of traditionalist. May i now question you? What is a traditional view in you understanding of the phrase?

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 08:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=201285#post201285)
themuzicman:

mickel,

What I saw in your last post is that you want to do the thinking for God, rather than understanding God's thinking.

If you seek truth by asserting what you think, and then looking for proof-texts, you will find error very quickly.

Jesus talks very clearly about there being an eternal heaven and an eternal hell, and about people going both places. Now, whether you think God is sane or right in doing that is really pretty irrelevant, because God is the one who makes the rules, not you.

Now, if you believe that the God of the bible is the one true God, then what He says in the context of His ENTIRE Word is true, and we do better to work to understand His truth, rather than make up our own.

So far, you've picked out individual verses here and there to proof text what you think, and haven't really done a good exegesis or good hermeneutics with these passages to show that what you say they mean, they mean.

You also tend to intersperse your own opinions about what God must do or must be, and have failed to support them beyond your own personal feelings.

Saying that God is insane for using eternal punishment is your personal opinion. It's not supported in scripture, it's not a position shared by people on this board, and it doesn't fly without a case being made for it, including good exegesis and hermeneutics.

David and Thomas have brought up several good verses and contexts which you have failed to reconcile to the proof-texts you've provided, and if we're going to have a coherant bible, we need that kind of reconciliation.

It might be a good idea to go back through the responses in this thread, pull together all the response verses that have been given to you, cite them in context, and then explain how they support your position.

Michael






I could careless what others think of my views and do not feel obligated to explain them in detail to anyone. I have not failed to do the things you have listed because i make no effort to convince anyone of anything. God is still not finished convincing me of his truth. Why should i explain to a blind man how to see? Would you turn from your beliefs because anothers view is different than yours Michael? Of course you wouldnot, neither do i. I state my views and thats it. Oh , on occassion i have been joined in agreement with a few, but not many see this way.

Michael there are things going on spiritually we just don't get. Butbelieve me, when one starts getting them, your whole life is then changed. I now know how horrible we have been duped. The seduction of the christian mind is dense and extinsive, only a God could have done it. At first i thought it was the god of this world, now i know different. That knowledge dooms me from fellowship with the mainstrean christian thought. I understand your feelings about me all to well.

[bar Jonah]

Yesterday @ 08:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=201559#post201559)
mickiel:
I know nothing of the foundation of this website. I respect this website and its tolerance for others views, that sets it apart from others in my view. My judgement is based on the expressed beliefs of those who post here. I hold no quarrell with Dee Dee, nor have criticism of her personally, her work is a good work. I simply take issue with the views of people and consider their views of God to be traditional. Because my mind is not gripped in tradition, i cannot grow when involved with a group of traditionalist. May i now question you? What is a traditional view in you understanding of the phrase?
Mickiel, if you think this website is basically "traditional," then either you don't really know the kinds of theological issues that are discussed both here and in intelligent Christian circles... or you're stark raving mad. And I'm very happy to give you the benefit of the doubt on the first one rather than the second one. No disrespect intended. :smile:

[mickiel]

Today @ 07:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=201645#post201645)
RightIdea:


Mickiel, if you think this website is basically "traditional," then either you don't really know the kinds of theological issues that are discussed both here and in intelligent Christian circles... or you're stark raving mad. And I'm very happy to give you the benefit of the doubt on the first one rather than the second one. No disrespect intended. :smile:




In my view, i am closer to your second opinon.

[mickiel]

None of them are new under the sun. The spiritual views of men are mundane at best, they render horrible renditions of spiritual thought. Theology web is an example of spiritual blindness to the extreme, deception at its finest. It is a panoramic view of mainstream christianity, so far from truth, lost in a sea of ever learning and proof we cannot come to true knowledge unless God decrees it. I often onder why God does this to the masses. People worshipping him, believing in him, loving him, and yet he totally ignores them. God is a trip man. All these people who claim to speak for him , do not. All who claim he has spoken to them, are deceived or lying. Think of the real sinner, the weak person,, the unwise and unpopular, the confused loner. Thats who God is dealing with, and the scripture proves that. But christians cannot understand the word of God. They cannot because God does not want them to,the christians shall be last in salvation. That is plain and clear in scripture also. I grow tired of the smerk remarks you and others make of me. My anger at times surpasses my awareness of whats going on. Its aittitudes like those of christians that really sicken me.

[David O]

Mickiel is mostly right.

I am trying to base all of my opinions on only the Bible, and I believe that it is the way to see through the haze. God wrote that book and it is alive.

There are some smart people in here, but the arrogant posturing sure does get annoying.

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday @ 09:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=201728#post201728)
David O:

Mickiel is mostly right.

I am trying to base all of my opinions on only the Bible, and I believe that it is the way to see through the haze. God wrote that book and it is alive.

There are some smart people in here, but the arrogant posturing sure does get annoying.

May God spare us from the un-Biblical, UnChristian, doom saying "prophecies" of every David Koresh, Jim Jones, Charlie Russell, Joe Smith, that comes down the road proclaiming that everybody in the entire world is lost except Himself, and everybody should roll belly up like a dead carp and swallow everything he says without question. Kool aid anyone?

[mickiel]

Today @ 12:12 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=202174#post202174)
OldShepherd:



May God spare us from the un-Biblical, UnChristian, doom saying "prophecies" of every David Koresh, Jim Jones, Charlie Russell, Joe Smith, that comes down the road proclaiming that everybody in the entire world is lost except Himself, and everybody should roll belly up like a dead carp and swallow everything he says without question. Kool aid anyone?



In my view, man has been bested and pryed away from truth by the preachers and teachers of this world. Down throughout history layer unpon layer of deception which has become the backbone of traditional spiritual thought. From local pastors downto their lack of study membership, the web of deception well laid. Well did Jeremiah see it even back then in 16:19 our fathers have inherited lies about God , nothing but false doctrines and knowledge of no value. Jeremiah continues his forsight in 23:11, but God is now speaking himself; both prophet and preist are polutted in my church.

The leaders of word of faith ministries, the leaders of prosperity ministries, the leaders of populer individual evangelical ministries , Baptist, prodestant, catholic, muslim, there are over 5, 000 world religons, all of them, all of them are led by men who claim God is leading them. In my studies of the bible, NONE of them FIT the description of Gods end time church. Even all of GOD'S churches described in Rev 2 and 3 are in pitiful spiritual shape, even the best of those 7 churches, the Philadelphains, are still described as being weak, having only a little power. Well these verses are ignored as man trys to preach a great revival of men comming to Christ, something the bible totally contridicts. Mammoth chruchs poping up, ever growing ministries giving the illousion God is doing this.

Instead of preaching real true hope for mankind, they preach hell for the lost, an unholy perversion of the glourious gospel of salvation, totally misunderstanding the mission of The Great Christ himslf to save this world. No NO NO, its not the fools you listed that have hurt mankind, in my view its just who Jeremiah and God said it was in his word. Our ancestors, our pastors and teachers. They have perverted the truth, and they still are doing it now.

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 12:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=202303#post202303)
mickiel:

In my view, man has been bested and pryed away from truth by the preachers and teachers of this world. Down throughout history layer unpon layer of deception which has become the backbone of traditional spiritual thought. From local pastors downto their lack of study membership, the web of deception well laid. Well did Jeremiah see it even back then in 16:19 our fathers have inherited lies about God , nothing but false doctrines and knowledge of no value. Jeremiah continues his forsight in 23:11, but God is now speaking himself; both prophet and preist are polutted in my church.

The leaders of word of faith ministries, the leaders of prosperity ministries, the leaders of populer individual evangelical ministries , Baptist, prodestant, catholic, muslim, there are over 5, 000 world religons, all of them, all of them are led by men who claim God is leading them. In my studies of the bible, NONE of them FIT the description of Gods end time church. Even all of GOD'S churches described in Rev 2 and 3 are in pitiful spiritual shape, even the best of those 7 churches, the Philadelphains, are still described as being weak, having only a little power. Well these verses are ignored as man trys to preach a great revival of men comming to Christ, something the bible totally contridicts. Mammoth chruchs poping up, ever growing ministries giving the illousion God is doing this.

Instead of preaching real true hope for mankind, they preach hell for the lost, an unholy perversion of the glourious gospel of salvation, totally misunderstanding the mission of The Great Christ himslf to save this world. No NO NO, its not the fools you listed that have hurt mankind, in my view its just who Jeremiah and God said it was in his word. Our ancestors, our pastors and teachers. They have perverted the truth, and they still are doing it now.

Since you have come to set us all straight, what IS the glorious gospel of Salvation of Christ Himself? I have not seen you preach anything but what Mickiel says.

Guess what? You are not Jeremiah and this is not the times of Jeremiah. What was true in his day may or may not be true in our day. And if it is true somewhere that does not mean it is true everywhere.

When I see a cancer patient whom the Drs said would not live until morning, get out of her bed and walk out of the hospital and live for 2 more years, because her church prayed for her. When I see a young girl with a broken arm healed instantly. When I see drug addicts and alcoholics healed from their dependence instantly. Excuse me if I don't drop everything and run after every self proclaimed "I have the ONLY truth." prophet that comes along.

I have seen nothing to substantiate any of your claims, NOT even an attempt at backing up what you say from the Word of God. You said you were leaving. Are you still here?

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 08:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=202303#post202303)
mickiel:
In my view, man has been bested and pryed away from truth by the preachers and teachers of this world. Down throughout history layer unpon layer of deception which has become the backbone of traditional spiritual thought. From local pastors downto their lack of study membership, the web of deception well laid. Well did Jeremiah see it even back then in 16:19 our fathers have inherited lies about God , nothing but false doctrines and knowledge of no value. Jeremiah continues his forsight in 23:11, but God is now speaking himself; both prophet and preist are polutted in my church.

The leaders of word of faith ministries, the leaders of prosperity ministries, the leaders of populer individual evangelical ministries , Baptist, prodestant, catholic, muslim, there are over 5, 000 world religons, all of them, all of them are led by men who claim God is leading them. In my studies of the bible, NONE of them FIT the description of Gods end time church. Even all of GOD'S churches described in Rev 2 and 3 are in pitiful spiritual shape, even the best of those 7 churches, the Philadelphains, are still described as being weak, having only a little power. Well these verses are ignored as man trys to preach a great revival of men comming to Christ, something the bible totally contridicts. Mammoth chruchs poping up, ever growing ministries giving the illousion God is doing this.

Instead of preaching real true hope for mankind, they preach hell for the lost, an unholy perversion of the glourious gospel of salvation, totally misunderstanding the mission of The Great Christ himslf to save this world. No NO NO, its not the fools you listed that have hurt mankind, in my view its just who Jeremiah and God said it was in his word. Our ancestors, our pastors and teachers. They have perverted the truth, and they still are doing it now.
Any other doctrinal differences we may have, notwithstanding...

All of this is exactly why I reject all creeds and confessions and all other extra-biblical writings as authoritative on doctrine. I am so worn out from hearing so many people here at TW talk about his ___ is true doctrine because it says so in the Nicene Creed or the Westminster Confession or this Protestant Catechism or that writing of Augustine, blah blah blah. None of it is inspired scripture, and therefore none of it can be authoritative. Can we recognize value in any of it? At least some of it, yes, but not as authority; there's a very important distinction.

When it comes to history, I may read these confessions and creeds as they become relevant in my various studies.

When it comes to authority on doctrine, I don't give a flying fig what the Westminster Confession or the Nicene Creed have to say about anything, whatsoever... even if I agree 99% or even 100% with what they say.

When it comes to authority on doctrine, I care about what the Bible says. To do otherwise is a form of idol worship.

[mickiel]

Today @ 06:55 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=202423#post202423)
RightIdea:


Any other doctrinal differences we may have, notwithstanding...

All of this is exactly why I reject all creeds and confessions and all other extra-biblical writings as authoritative on doctrine. I am so worn out from hearing so many people here at TW talk about his ___ is true doctrine because it says so in the Nicene Creed or the Westminster Confession or this Protestant Catechism or that writing of Augustine, blah blah blah. None of it is inspired scripture, and therefore none of it can be authoritative. Can we recognize value in any of it? At least some of it, yes, but not as authority; there's a very important distinction.

When it comes to history, I may read these confessions and creeds as they become relevant in my various studies.

When it comes to authority on doctrine, I don't give a flying fig what the Westminster Confession or the Nicene Creed have to say about anything, whatsoever... even if I agree 99% or even 100% with what they say.

When it comes to authority on doctrine, I care about what the Bible says. To do otherwise is a form of idol worship.





I don't think these people do these things on purpose, they really believe themselves. They have listened to themselves for a long time, and others accept them as God inspired. I allow no one to teach me but the Holy Spirit of God himself, nothingelse is allowed in that sacred area. God will personally contact those whom he intends. In Ezekiel 34:11, God will seek his sheep himself, but the people think God will send pastors or evangelist to lead them. Jesus called every deciple himself, and he picked none of them out of the church. Most of the people God called , if not all of them, were not church people or christians. Strange how people seem to think God has changed in this method.


The dispensation of truth comes directly from God, not a church. The chruchs of today are FULL of deception, soaked in truth mixed with lies, a mixture God hates. God is pure and does not like truth that is not. People simply cannot see this, i believe God is behind this. The earth is not full of the knowledge of the Lord. But it will be, Isaiah 11:9. Jesus taught that all sins will be forgiven humans and their offspring, Mark 3:28, so even the sin of teaching false religon is destined to be forgiven.

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 03:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=202423#post202423)
RightIdea:

Any other doctrinal differences we may have, notwithstanding...

All of this is exactly why I reject all creeds and confessions and all other extra-biblical writings as authoritative on doctrine. I am so worn out from hearing so many people here at TW talk about his ___ is true doctrine because it says so in the Nicene Creed or the Westminster Confession or this Protestant Catechism or that writing of Augustine, blah blah blah. None of it is inspired scripture, and therefore none of it can be authoritative. Can we recognize value in any of it? At least some of it, yes, but not as authority; there's a very important distinction.

When it comes to history, I may read these confessions and creeds as they become relevant in my various studies.

When it comes to authority on doctrine, I don't give a flying fig what the Westminster Confession or the Nicene Creed have to say about anything, whatsoever... even if I agree 99% or even 100% with what they say.

When it comes to authority on doctrine, I care about what the Bible says. To do otherwise is a form of idol worship.

Are you sure you posted in the right thread? I don't think I have seen anyone in this thread quoting any of those creeds or confessions you mentioned. I have seen one person who claims to be the great prophet come to set us all straight, because everyone who attends any Christian church is blind, duped, idolatrous, etc., etc. etc. And I have been trying without any luck whatsoever to get him to back up anything he says with scripture. You want Bible, so do I, is that too much to ask? But all I can get from this self proclaimed prophet is what Mickiel says.

Since you accept ONLY the Bible, here is some Bible in the original languages untainted by any translation or version. Can you tell me what it says?

ככלב עב-קאו כסיל שונה באולתו

kuwn epistreqaV epi to idion exerama kai uV lousamenh eiV kulisma borborou
 

[David O]

[i]You said you were leaving. Are you still here?[/font][/size]


May the Lord rebuke you for this.

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday @ 10:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=202560#post202560)
David O:

May the Lord rebuke you for this.

Why? All I did was remind him what he posted about a month ago. He said he was leaving. He claims we are all lost and that he has the ONLY truth but he refuses to post anything but criticism of Christianity. If he is going then why is he still here?

08-11-2003 @ 04:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=177553#post177553)
mickiel:

I only mean my time at theology web is near up. I loose intrest in places of traditional thought, they offer me no real growth. I am exicited at truth, and this place is dull of hearing , it will continue on its present course. I know my life is not worthless, but i just feel that way at times. Imagine 99% of people believing one thing, and the rest believing the other. I am a part of that 1%. You switch from elation to lonliness each day. Others ask why i even bother with the 99, they know its worthless. I thought knowing truth would be a wonderful thing, i was wrong.

At least I did not accuse him of "arrogant posturing" May God rebuke the judgemental person who made that remark. Pot, kettle?

09-03-2003 @ 09:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=201728#post201728)
David O:

Mickiel is mostly right.

I am trying to base all of my opinions on only the Bible, and I believe that it is the way to see through the haze. God wrote that book and it is alive.

There are some smart people in here, but the arrogant posturing sure does get annoying.

[mickiel]

Today @ 01:14 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=203221#post203221)
OldShepherd:



Why? All I did was remind him what he posted about a month ago. He said he was leaving. He claims we are all lost and that he has the ONLY truth but he refuses to post anything but criticism of Christianity. If he is going then why is he still here?



Be patient, i will leave, go and come as i please, but i undersand your desire for me to keep my word. You are falsely accusing me, i have not written that all are lost, you are blind to what i plainly write. I have contnually writtened that all are saved, that all will receive eternal life, your doctrine teaches what you accuse me of.I will leave when i get ready. It is unfortuate that my theology disturbs yours. he nature of this website is one of debating differing theology, the only reason i spend a little more time here is because i am led to. There must be someone here a seed is being incerted into. I am confident it is not you. I will not respond to your assanation of my character, i grow tired of that childs play. I inend to learn to communicate without it. I have never claimed to know the truth, i claim to know the lies.











At least I did not accuse him of "arrogant posturing" May God rebuke the judgemental person who made that remark. Pot, kettle?

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 12:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=203302#post203302)
mickiel:

Be patient, i will leave, go and come as i please, but i undersand your desire for me to keep my word. You are falsely accusing me, i have not written that all are lost, you are blind to what i plainly write. I have contnually writtened that all are saved, that all will receive eternal life, your doctrine teaches what you accuse me of.I will leave when i get ready. It is unfortuate that my theology disturbs yours. he nature of this website is one of debating differing theology, the only reason i spend a little more time here is because i am led to. There must be someone here a seed is being incerted into. I am confident it is not you. I will not respond to your assanation of my character, i grow tired of that childs play. I inend to learn to communicate without it. I have never claimed to know the truth, i claim to know the lies.

You have never claimed to know the truth? Read this post by you.

08-11-2003 @ 04:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=177553#post177553)
mickiel:

I only mean my time at theology web is near up. I loose intrest in places of traditional thought, they offer me no real growth. I am exicited at truth, and this place is dull of hearing , it will continue on its present course. I know my life is not worthless, but i just feel that way at times. Imagine 99% of people believing one thing, and the rest believing the other. I am a part of that 1%. You switch from elation to lonliness each day. Others ask why i even bother with the 99, they know its worthless. I thought knowing truth would be a wonderful thing, i was wrong.

[David O]

You are still arrogant and you mock Mickiel. He is welcome to be here. My accusation of you is solemn, not flippant like your belittling of Mickiel. Mickiel is a human being, created in God's image. Treat him as such. You can take correction. He doesn't need to be told to leave in such a childish manner. The shepherd cares for the sheep, the wolf attacks at them.

[luvsails]

I am new to TW. I was excited to see a website devoted to the exchange and discussion of Theological ideas. But, I am very discouraged to see the hate, biterness, anger and "unloving" responces posted in this thread. Did not Jesus say that "they will know you are my disciples by your love." I look forward to reasonable and loving, though often antithetical, discussions and opions. Please consider your responces and the mandate expressed earlier on this site and by most religions around the world, LOVE.

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday @ 09:28 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=203576#post203576)
David O:

You are still arrogant and you mock Mickiel. He is welcome to be here. My accusation of you is solemn, not flippant like your belittling of Mickiel. Mickiel is a human being, created in God's image. Treat him as such. You can take correction. He doesn't need to be told to leave in such a childish manner. The shepherd cares for the sheep, the wolf attacks at them.

My very young friend, I was not at all flippant. I was quite serious. I have NOT belittled anyone. Look up the word in a dictionary and then tell me exactly how anything I said was belittling of him. "Treat him as such?" I am treating him exactly as he is treating us. He has done nothing but condemn Christianity in his posts. And I have asked several times for clarification from the scriptures and he has produced none. You criticize me, then you have the nerve to call me names.

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:" Your buddy has already more than once admitted he is NOT part of Christianity. So tell us David how much building up, edifying, or encouragement your buddy, your pal, Mick has done here? When the wolf gets in among the sheep and starts killing, tearing down, and destroying, the shepherd gets rid of him.

[David O]

I don't expect Christ-lke behavior from him yet. I was incorrect to expect it of you. Jesus saved the harsh rebukes for the folks like you, he was kind to the lost folks like my friend. Mickiel isn't tearing down stuff, he is asking questions. He is lonely. You are cruel. You are tearing him down. I'm through talking to you.

[OldShepherd]

Today @ 01:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=204291#post204291)
David O:

I don't expect Christ-lke behavior from him yet. I was incorrect to expect it of you. Jesus saved the harsh rebukes for the folks like you, he was kind to the lost folks like my friend. Mickiel isn't tearing down stuff, he is asking questions. He is lonely. You are cruel. You are tearing him down. I'm through talking to you.

I'm tearing him down? Somebody is very confused, all I have done is quote what he posted. You claim that Mick is only asking questions. Here are quotes from his first four posts on the first page of this thread. ALL of them attack Christianity and none of them ask a question. You are through talking to me? Good, I prefer to have discussions with someone with honesty and integrity.
1st post. It pleases God for Jesus to save us all, God is not , has not, willed any to hell fire for eternity, somethingelse christians contridict. This is why i view christians as the greatest enemy of Christ. Strangely ironic. The very servants of Christ, his actual enemys. They are not anti-christ, they are blinded by lack of knowledge.

2d post. Brother, either the whole of christianity is deceived and full of deception, or i just am.

3rd post. They see, but they see doctrines actually formulated by men, and call that God. They want to see, spend their lives in actual worship, but are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. If what i believe is true, the whole world is deceived, but thats what the bible says in Rev. 12:9, its just that no one believes it. People think they are exempt from that. Not understanding God, they have established a long developed pattern of self righteousness, and really do not submit themselves to Gods standard because they don't know it. It sounds like heresey to them.

4th post. I am exicited at truth, and this place is dull of hearing , it will continue on its present course.

[mickiel]

I am sure if i am a wolf, God will deal with me. I have seen the desire in others to police God people, i wish you well in your effort to do as such. I am called to bang hard on the head of the pharisee, but instead i find myself banging on the christians, because i see them as the cause of much deception. I enjoy seeing you repeatly pull up my post, i believe and stand by each and every word. I have been called far worse than a wolf. If i were in your shoes, i would do the same, i am very protective of God. Just as you see me as a threat, i see you and your consituants as a hinderance to truth. So i understand your response. You think i am a lost cause with no understanding. I do not ever recall not responding to any here who asked me to explain a scripture, why don't you pull those post out that i may respond.


To David; i thank you David for your kind words, but believe me there are many powers that protect me, nothing and no one on the internet can penertrate me. Nothing on this earth can hurt me but one thing--- "me", my own personal weakneses, and i have enough of them to last till God returns. Ther are two sins in particulari just can seem to get rid of, but i try. Part of me likes them , the other doesn't. I am the same toward christians. I like those like you, i stongly dislike those like old sheppard. This is one reason i am not christian, it shard for me to love people who get bent out of shape if you don't agree with them. Most christians are like that, at least those i have encountered. I find your spirit most refreshing David, but i caution you, to speak favor toward me here in this place may cause you enemys. I'll be okay, God has given me things that others will naturally fear, as he has given you things. When God gives us something, it is perminent, useful to ourselves and others. It is often misunderstood, but it will always repel satan. Even blind people can sense Gods power. I do not expect good treatment, why should i? I am tearing down everything old sheppard values as truth all his life. God was dissapointed in me for doing so arrogantly, i must repent of that. Old sheppard is right, i did say i'm leaving, but i am not in charge of my direction. I want to leave, but not until the real boss says so. I'm sick ofthis place, not its general service to people, thats great, but the doctrinal beliefs are so far off, its pitiful. May the great Lord of heaven help us all.

[mickiel]

09-05-2003 @ 09:38 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=204046#post204046)
luvsails:

I am new to TW. I was excited to see a website devoted to the exchange and discussion of Theological ideas. But, I am very discouraged to see the hate, biterness, anger and "unloving" responces posted in this thread. Did not Jesus say that "they will know you are my disciples by your love." I look forward to reasonable and loving, though often antithetical, discussions and opions. Please consider your responces and the mandate expressed earlier on this site and by most religions around the world, LOVE.



When you ask a question,the source of the answer will come from the direction in which you have asked. You have already perceived a place full of christians that is also full of bitterness, hate, anger and unloving responses, the exact reasons i do not like it here. Then you think it rational of yourself to ask a question of these people, i question your rationality for doing as such. You seek guidance from a place that exihbits these tendencys. Christians are not aware that they are full of these things, they are in serious denial, thinking themselves holy. They will tell you-- " well we alll have these things", but will also tell you we all cannot be saved. They think, Only the christians, those who you see hate and bitterness inside, can be saved. The bible actually teaches differently, it shows a world of humans in which all of them have sinned, before or after conversion, andfall short of Gods glory. They do not think they fall short AFTER conversion, they are rong, i question the spiritual mind that does not see sin in itself. If sin can be forgiven, and all have sinned, i think that can include all in salvation.

Now from this premise, who is Christ, is he God? Again you are asking a very serious question, from a source you have already dertermined as fawed. Your problem is the same problem that has created a tradition of deception. Flawed men seeking guidance from flawed men thinking from that can come a revealed source of direction. So far your post has been ignored, consider yourself fortunate. I would advise you question God and ignore people. I know the answer to your question, the only reason i know, is because God is concerned with his plan o salvation. He has revealed it to many, i have actually met some of them in communication. not personally. God opened me, that is the only wat to receive from heaven . answer to questions. That is the true source, there is no bitterness in heaven, no anger, no hatred. Except for God's himself, and his is focused on pure righteous reason which results in the forgiveness of all mankind, the heart and core of truth. That is who Christ really is--- complette forgiveness. He is Gods safety value, mans assurance of freedom from sin.

[smaller]

I'm tearing him down? Somebody is very confused, all I have done is quote what he posted. You claim that Mick is only asking questions. Here are quotes from his first four posts on the first page of this thread. ALL of them attack Christianity and none of them ask a question. You are through talking to me? Good, I prefer to have discussions with someone with honesty and integrity.
1st post. It pleases God for Jesus to save us all, God is not , has not, willed any to hell fire for eternity, somethingelse christians contridict. This is why i view christians as the greatest enemy of Christ. Strangely ironic. The very servants of Christ, his actual enemys. They are not anti-christ, they are blinded by lack of knowledge.

2d post. Brother, either the whole of christianity is deceived and full of deception, or i just am.

3rd post. They see, but they see doctrines actually formulated by men, and call that God. They want to see, spend their lives in actual worship, but are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. If what i believe is true, the whole world is deceived, but thats what the bible says in Rev. 12:9, its just that no one believes it. People think they are exempt from that. Not understanding God, they have established a long developed pattern of self righteousness, and really do not submit themselves to Gods standard because they don't know it. It sounds like heresey to them.

4th post. I am exicited at truth, and this place is dull of hearing , it will continue on its present course.

Man, how did all this get sooo personal?

I'm not going to speak for Mickiel about his positions. I have known him for quite a while in cyberspace terms both as an opponent and a friend. He does question thoroughly every positional presentation and none should ever be faulted for that, ever.

The contemplation of God is not just a lifetime experience, it's an eternal experience, so be prepared for endless contemplations about God.

As to his position on Jesus to God he is right to point out that there are distinctions. Traditionalism likes to claim Trinity. Personally I have no problem with that term, but I also do not think mens terms like Trinity is any kind of a binding upon God and even less a term that should be used to wallop each other. I would say the same to the Oneness camps. I have some positions of agreement with them as well.

The problems begin when we try to put God into our pat little boxes and then say look! I've found Him! He's mine and mine alone because of my BOX and if you don't get in my box God is gonna fry you alive forever.

sure. If there is one position Mickiel and I have arrived at it is that we put away the desire to see other people fry alive forver. We are both done with that and that is what Christianity has used as their control stick with mankind for a very long time. I've had enough of that garbage.

And this is where Christianity general has landed unfortunately. This type of activity is a working of deception amongst believers.

I really really think that God is going to remain undefined and beyond capture, not just for this life, but forEVER. He has provided us An Image, His Son, Jesus Christ to fix our attentions upon. That's good enough for me.

And I'm really OK with all of that. What is it in me that wants to ride God down and capture Him and put Him in a BOX anyway?

That's sick. Just like the desire and promotion to burn people alive in fire for not believing like you is SICK.

God Is Eternal. We are going to wind up in His Position before He winds up in ours. (1 Cor. 15:28)

God Is Love. We have a long ways to go.

enjoy!

smaller

[sonofyah]

Rev 5:1-7....and he came and took the book out of the right hand of HIM that sat upon the throne.

Two different...Elohim the father(YHWH) and Elohim the Son(Yahoshua)

[mickiel]

What is Jesus relationship to God? Well of the most important of this subject to humans is that Jesus is the Extension of God, or the only part of God that we have seen. The closest we have come in hoping to understand God. And we killed him. The human reaction to comming that close to God, was to kill it. Thats what we did to the truth then, its what we still do to it now, we kill it. What we don't kill, we distort and mame. We disfigure it so much, that nothing but violence results from it, thus we created the violence of Hell, and men are trying to take the Kingdom of God by that same spirit of violence. Just force this distortion down the throat of the world.

In 1John 4:14 we see the relationship between Jesus and God expressed in the REAL reason God sent Jesus to the Earth, and I bear witness to that in my few vists here to Theologyweb, and I willnot vist here long, I promise that. I purposely keep my vists short, this is a place for Christians, but they allow vist from outsiders like myself, which I appriciate.

Jesus was sent here by God with the exclusive Holy Purpose of Saving the Whole World. That was the gospel first delivered, that was the only purpose Jesus had, thus it is the Gospel that has been lost.

From the moment satan understood this gospel, he has fervently worked at it for centuries, trying to distort and change it as much as he could.

Look at verse 13, " There is NO FEAR in Love, but Perfect Love cast out fear, because fear INVOLVES PUNISHMENT, and the ones who fears is NOT perfected in Love." People are teaching, using, depending on the Fear of Hell in Gods gospel message of Love. That is arcane contridiction. This will NEVER work. Never. One can NEVER understand Gods Love if fear of Punishment is involved. All the percevied notion of hell punishment can offer a believer in God is useless misdiredted fear, and Love cannot be perfected in that.

Peace.

[mickiel]

Jesus is Gods son, he belongs to God. One can say, in that view, that Jesus " Is Gods." Or that is to say he belongs to God. Notice Psalms 82:6;" You are Gods, and ALL of you asre sons of the Most High." Now this verse does not mean that all humans, are a God themselves, it means we all " Belong to God", it refers to his ownership of us. We are Gods possessions, we are Gods, or his creations.

If someone knows my son, and another persons sees my son and ask them who he was, they would say, " He is Mickiels", or he belongs to Mickiel. When the bible states that " We are Gods", it means we belong to him. Who are we, well we are Gods, or we are his people, we belong to him. The selfish way to interpit that verse, is to think that it means you are a God yourself. Selfishness is a favorite demon tactic to use in interfering with how we interpit scripture, because its so easy for the demons to get away with it. Because its messaging a very volitle part of human nature.

So Jesus is not God, hes Gods, or he belongs to God. We are not Gods, we are Gods, or we belong to him.

Peace.