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Spartacus
09-08-2015, 04:39 PM
A couple JWs stopped by my house this last Saturday, and they said they'll be back Thursday morning. Their opening tack was about the purpose of Biblical prophecy, but we ended up focusing on the Eucharist. I'm in no sense afraid of them, but I'm more than a bit rusty with respect to apologetics, and I'm wondering what thoughts or tips y'all might have.

37818
09-09-2015, 05:44 AM
A couple JWs stopped by my house this last Saturday, and they said they'll be back Thursday morning. Their opening tack was about the purpose of Biblical prophecy, but we ended up focusing on the Eucharist. I'm in no sense afraid of them, but I'm more than a bit rusty with respect to apologetics, and I'm wondering what thoughts or tips y'all might have.
Curious, did they or did you bring up the issue of the Eucharist?

Are you familiar with Catholic Answers? [Catholic.com.]
If I was of the Catholic Faith would use them as a resource.

Spartacus
09-09-2015, 08:25 AM
Curious, did they or did you bring up the issue of the Eucharist?

Are you familiar with Catholic Answers? [Catholic.com.]
If I was of the Catholic Faith would use them as a resource.

I brought it up; off-hand, I could recall more stuff about the Eucharist than any other potential topic.

Catholic Answers is where I got my start in apologetics. I was planning to look at their stuff to refresh my memory, but i was also wondering if anyone here had any other thoughts or tips.

37818
09-09-2015, 09:04 AM
Two major errors to note regarding the Watchtower teachings. Of course the deity of Christ, and the bodily resurrection. That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5). I would also note that this man Jesus is our sole access to God (John 14:6).

Scrawly
09-09-2015, 05:01 PM
A couple JWs stopped by my house this last Saturday, and they said they'll be back Thursday morning. Their opening tack was about the purpose of Biblical prophecy, but we ended up focusing on the Eucharist. I'm in no sense afraid of them, but I'm more than a bit rusty with respect to apologetics, and I'm wondering what thoughts or tips y'all might have.

There are many good threads started by foudroyant in this section. He cites great scholars, and I personally found the citations effective in my dialogue with various JW's.

apostoli
09-16-2015, 06:18 AM
A couple JWs stopped by my house this last Saturday, and they said they'll be back Thursday morning. Their opening tack was about the purpose of Biblical prophecy, but we ended up focusing on the Eucharist. I'm in no sense afraid of them, but I'm more than a bit rusty with respect to apologetics, and I'm wondering what thoughts or tips y'all might have.I just noticed your post, but if it isn't too late...

Next time they come suggest to them that you'd really like to acquire a copy of "Reasoning from the Scriptures". I had a copy but can't find it!. It was/is a little book they used/use to prepare topics before they go door knocking, or if they are a newbie, draw upon to answer questions that stump them. They may avoid meeting your request. No problem the WB&TS have something of an online version (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200274789). It is a great little book that is generally useful. Keep in mind that JWs do teach a central Christian message but they do have some ideas not held by most Christians or rejected by mainstream Christianity.

One word of warning: Don't waste energy or time trying to prove Jesus is God the Son from the typical evangelical list of scriptures...

Except for 2 Peter 1:1 there isn't a single scripture that isn't disputed grammatically by the experts in Koine Greek. 2 Peter 1:1 is disputed textually. A smart JW will just point you to the KJV and/or the ASV (the seminarian bible) where the rendering distinguishes between God and the Savior. Then they'd have you read vs2 which without question distinguishes between God and Jesus our Lord. Then they will point out that repetatively 2 Peter refers to Jesus as "our/the Lord and Saviour" 2 Peter 1:11; 2:20; 3:2,18. 2 Peter without dispute distinguishes between God and Jesus at 2 Peter 1:2,16-17 (disputedly at 2 Peter 1:1). Without dispute 1 Peter repetatively distinguishes between God and Jesus at 1 Peter 1:2,3,21; 2:5; 3:18,21-22; 4:11,14; 5:10. As with A.Paul's epistles, 1 Peter uses "God" exclusively of the Father of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1c & John 8:40 with Genesis 18 and John 1:18 have the most potential. JWs acknowledge that "the angel of Jehovah" that appeared to Moses was the preincarnate Jesus, but Genesis 18 has Jehovah himself supping with Abraham. Given "no man has seen God at anytime" who did Abraham chat with? Refer to John 8:40.

Concerning John 1:1c, JWs use to have an elaborate argument against Colwell's rule which is now redundant. The typical rendering of John 1:1c "the Word was God" is disputed by most grammarians as it doesn't fit the Greek (Harner proved this conclusively. Wallace, Mantey etc concured). Most modern grammarians hold that John 1:1c is qualitative and the NEB gives the best understanding "what God was the Word was". This fits with the testimony of the gospel at John 12:45; 14:9. If you can get your visitors to acknowledge this fact then you have a lead in to discussing the consubstantiality (homoousios) of the Son with the Father. You won't get them to accept the Trinity at this stage but Binitarianism is almost there ;-)

__________

My ex-wife was a fanatical JW, so I had to tolerate her persecution of me and my RCC ideas for a good 18 years (the elders and others in her congregation were great to me! I really liked most of them). I haven't had much (anything) to do with them since the early 1990s, and as I now live in what is increasingly a Muslim area I rarely see them (they sold their local hall), but from the last visit I had a couple of years ago, nothing much has changed in their beliefs in the last twenty five or so years...

KingsGambit
09-16-2015, 07:34 AM
Did they come back? Any updates?

Bibleuser
12-20-2017, 04:56 PM
[QUOTE=37818;242487] That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5).

That is so not true!!!
BU

Christianbookworm
12-20-2017, 08:07 PM
[QUOTE=37818;242487] That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5).

That is so not true!!!
BU

Quick refresher. Don't JWs deny that Jesus was God? So, couldn't you still consider Him an immortal man? Or does soul sleep not count as immortality? Do you also deny the Resurrection?

KingsGambit
12-20-2017, 08:38 PM
[QUOTE=Bibleuser;501117]

Quick refresher. Don't JWs deny that Jesus was God? So, couldn't you still consider Him an immortal man? Or does soul sleep not count as immortality? Do you also deny the Resurrection?

Soul sleep refers to the intermediate state, so one's view on that doesn't really affect what one believes about actual immortality.

37818
12-21-2017, 08:25 AM
That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5).

That is so not true!!!
BU

What is not true? That Jesus is now a man (1 Timothy 2:5, ". . . the man Jesus Christ; . . ."). Or that He was raised immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53, ". . . this mortal must put on immortality. . . ." Luke 24:39, ". . . Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, . . .").

Jedidiah
12-21-2017, 12:35 PM
What is not true? That Jesus is now a man (1 Timothy 2:5, ". . . the man Jesus Christ; . . ."). Or that He was raised immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53, ". . . this mortal must put on immortality. . . ." Luke 24:39, ". . . Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, . . .").

JWs believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually, and his body preserved mystically somewhere/somehow.

Christianbookworm
12-21-2017, 12:52 PM
Isn't a spiritual resurrection a contradiction? Like having a square circle.

Jedidiah
12-21-2017, 03:07 PM
Isn't a spiritual resurrection a contradiction? Like having a square circle.

:shrug:

37818
12-21-2017, 03:49 PM
JWs believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually, and his body preserved mystically somewhere/somehow.

A man is flesh and bone. In which is how Jesus did appear (Luke 24:39). BU said what I has wrote in post #4 is not true. I wanted him to clarify. Jesus being now a man (1 Timothy 2:5) or my statment that He is now immortal being a man (Hebrews 13:8).. Or both things.

BU cited,
That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5). And remarked,

That is so not true!!!
BU

Sparko
12-22-2017, 07:40 AM
The JWs think that Jesus is the Arch-Angel Michael who came down and became a man.

37818
12-23-2017, 07:31 PM
The JWs think that Jesus is the Arch-Angel Michael who came down and became a man.In the 1800's there were Trinitarian Christians who actually thought the Arc-Angel Michael {Michael meaning "Who is like God"} was an identity of the Son of God.

". . . But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. . . ." -- Jude 9.

". . . And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary. And Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, . . ." -- Zachariah 3:1-2.

". . . For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel . . ." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Bibleuser
01-04-2018, 06:58 AM
". . . For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel . . ." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:16.


Which "Lord" as there are many?
BU

Bibleuser
01-04-2018, 07:03 AM
:shrug:

No as God's Kingdom is in heaven, read Matthew:-
1 Corinthians 15:50
But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom. . .

So to go into "God's Kingdom" one has to be in spirit form!
BU

Bill the Cat
01-04-2018, 07:15 AM
No as God's Kingdom is in heaven, read Matthew:-
1 Corinthians 15:50
But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom. . .

So to go into "God's Kingdom" one has to be in spirit form!
BU

:rofl:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Bill the Cat
01-04-2018, 07:16 AM
Which "Lord" as there are many?
BU

To humans, yes. We humans find many people and things that we allow to be our lord. But there is only one Lord - Jesus Christ.

37818
01-04-2018, 02:03 PM
No as God's Kingdom is in heaven, read Matthew:-
1 Corinthians 15:50
But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom. . .

So to go into "God's Kingdom" one has to be in spirit form!
BU

Huh? Jesus is a man right now at the right hand of God so to speak, ". . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . ." -- 1 Timothy 2:5.

37818
01-05-2018, 05:50 AM
". . . For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel . . ." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Which "Lord" as there are many?
BU

Who do you think Jehovah meant? Himself or the one Lord Jesus Christ? ". . . For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. . . ." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Bibleuser
01-14-2018, 01:57 PM
To humans, yes. We humans find many people and things that we allow to be our lord. But there is only one Lord - Jesus Christ.

This is very True!
BU

Bill the Cat
01-15-2018, 06:03 AM
This is very True!
BU

Then your god isn't Lord because he isn't Jesus Christ.

Bibleuser
01-15-2018, 12:09 PM
Then your god isn't Lord because he isn't Jesus Christ.

My God is a Lord and Jesus is a Lord

Deuteronomy 10:17
For Jehovah your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, . . .

cts 2:36
Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

One is Lord by because of his right as creator of the cosmos and all in it, and that one appointed Jesus over all things as HIS King of kings and Lord of lords over mankind as his appointed saviour.
BU

Jedidiah
01-15-2018, 01:50 PM
Twist and cherry pick them scriptures.

Jedidiah
01-15-2018, 02:01 PM
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Notice carefully that it does not say all things "except" Christ Himself. This if it was created Christ created it. Therefore Christ was, according to scripture, not created at all regardless of how you twist the words.

Bibleuser
01-16-2018, 04:25 AM
Twist and cherry pick them scriptures.

I think you will find from Jesus and the Apostles they always use selected scripture to make any point!!
They were also said to twist the scriptures by non beleivers.
BU

Bibleuser
01-16-2018, 04:26 AM
John 1:1-3 says "though" him not by him?
BU

Bill the Cat
01-16-2018, 06:11 AM
My God is a Lord and Jesus is a Lord

Too bad. There's only ONE Lord when it comes to matters of faith.

Ephesians 4:4-6New International Version (NIV)
4*There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
5*one Lord, one faith, one baptism;



Deuteronomy 10:17
For Jehovah your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, . . .

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

So, your god can't be "a Lord" because Jesus is the only Lord.

Jedidiah
01-16-2018, 09:24 AM
John 1:1-3 says "though" him not by him?
BU

I repeat,
1Notice carefully that it does not say all things "except" Christ Himself. This if it was created Christ created it. Therefore Christ was, according to scripture, not created at all regardless of how you twist the words.

Sparko
01-16-2018, 09:44 AM
John 1:1-3 says "though" him not by him?
BU

And Colossians 1:16 Says all things were created BY him

For by him all things were created

So how do you reconcile the two verses?

Obviously BY HIM and THROUGH HIM are equivalent.

yes?

Bibleuser
01-16-2018, 10:54 AM
And Colossians 1:16 Says all things were created BY him

For by him all things were created

So how do you reconcile the two verses?

Obviously BY HIM and THROUGH HIM are equivalent.

yes?

John 1:10
10 He was in the world,+ and the world came into existence through him,+ but the world did not know him.

Hebrews 1:2
2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he [God] appointed heir of all things,+ and through whom he [God] made the systems of things.
BU

Bibleuser
01-16-2018, 10:57 AM
I repeat,

Revelation 3:1
“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

BU

Bibleuser
01-16-2018, 11:10 AM
Too bad. There's only ONE Lord when it comes to matters of faith.

Ephesians 4:4-6New International Version (NIV)
4*There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
5*one Lord, one faith, one baptism;




1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

So, your god can't be "a Lord" because Jesus is the only Lord.

Genesis 23:5, 6
At this the sons of Heth answered Abraham: 6 “Hear us, my lord. You are a chieftain of God among us. . . .

Exodus 32:21, 22
And Moses said to Aaron: “What did this people do to you that you have brought a great sin upon them?” 22 Aaron replied: “Do not be enraged, my lord. . . .

Numbers 11:28
Then Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses from his youth, responded and said: “My lord Moses, . . .

Judges 4:18
Then Jaʹel came out to meet Sisʹe·ra and said to him: “Come in, my lord, . . .

2 Kings 6:26
As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried out to him: “Help us, O my lord the king!”

2 Kings 18:27
But the Rabʹsha·keh said to them: “Is it just to your lord and to you that my lord sent me to speak these words? . . .

Daniel 1:10
But the principal court official said to Daniel: “I am afraid of my lord the king, . . .

Lords.
MMMMMMMMM ...
BU

Sparko
01-16-2018, 12:13 PM
John 1:10
10 He was in the world,+ and the world came into existence through him,+ but the world did not know him.

Hebrews 1:2
2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he [God] appointed heir of all things,+ and through whom he [God] made the systems of things.
BU

You didn't answer my question, you just did it again.

How do you reconcile Col 1:16?

Jedidiah
01-16-2018, 02:42 PM
Revelation 3:1
“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

BU

You still have not gotten around the clear statement of scripture (even the New World 'translation') that Christ was not created.

Jedidiah
01-16-2018, 02:42 PM
You didn't answer my question, you just did it again.

How do you reconcile Col 1:16?

He ignored my post as well. He has no answer.

Sparko
01-17-2018, 08:18 AM
He ignored my post as well. He has no answer.

He seems to be an enthusiastic but average JW who gets inundated with the watchtower literature and propaganda and has decided he wants to be an internet apologist for Jehovah's Witnesses and fancies himself more competent than he is, resorting to mostly reposting watchtower literature as his answers. When confronted with something that he doesn't have a prewritten answer to, he just ignores it and tries to slide over the goal posts a little and pretend it never happened.

He doesn't seem to be here to actually debate, but just be a mouthpiece for his cult.

I was almost (well WAS) dragged into the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was a teenager and they started "bible study" with my mom. I have read all of their literature too and I tell you it was a hard road to start thinking for myself and questioning the truth of their propaganda. My only saving grace was that my dad was in the Army and we moved and stopped meeting with them. They are very good at mind control. Like most cults their hook is that they have the real truth that the rest of Christianity has missed for 2000 years. That they should pity the poor lost souls who are being tricked by this world's system of things. But they have the answer!

Except when you actually start reading the bible yourself, from start to finish, not skipping around verse to verse like they want you to do, and have to reconcile that the bible is ALL true, then you have to come to the conclusion that what they teach is wrong and the Trinity is true. They also need to read a good bible. The New World Translation is horrible and impossible to follow. It's like reading a google translate version of a chinese web page.

Bill the Cat
01-17-2018, 08:44 AM
Genesis 23:5, 6
At this the sons of Heth answered Abraham: 6 “Hear us, my lord. You are a chieftain of God among us. . . .

Exodus 32:21, 22
And Moses said to Aaron: “What did this people do to you that you have brought a great sin upon them?” 22 Aaron replied: “Do not be enraged, my lord. . . .

Numbers 11:28
Then Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses from his youth, responded and said: “My lord Moses, . . .

Judges 4:18
Then Jaʹel came out to meet Sisʹe·ra and said to him: “Come in, my lord, . . .

2 Kings 6:26
As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried out to him: “Help us, O my lord the king!”

2 Kings 18:27
But the Rabʹsha·keh said to them: “Is it just to your lord and to you that my lord sent me to speak these words? . . .

Daniel 1:10
But the principal court official said to Daniel: “I am afraid of my lord the king, . . .

Lords.
MMMMMMMMM ...
BU

Again, these are human lords who are in positions of authority. But there is only ONE Lord of all, and that is Jesus Christ. Your god isn't a Lord because Jesus would have to be his Lord to be Lord of Lords.

Jedidiah
01-17-2018, 02:28 PM
He seems to be an enthusiastic but average JW who gets inundated with the watchtower literature and propaganda and has decided he wants to be an internet apologist for Jehovah's Witnesses and fancies himself more competent than he is, resorting to mostly reposting watchtower literature as his answers. When confronted with something that he doesn't have a prewritten answer to, he just ignores it and tries to slide over the goal posts a little and pretend it never happened.

He doesn't seem to be here to actually debate, but just be a mouthpiece for his cult.

I was almost (well WAS) dragged into the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was a teenager and they started "bible study" with my mom. I have read all of their literature too and I tell you it was a hard road to start thinking for myself and questioning the truth of their propaganda. My only saving grace was that my dad was in the Army and we moved and stopped meeting with them. They are very good at mind control. Like most cults their hook is that they have the real truth that the rest of Christianity has missed for 2000 years. That they should pity the poor lost souls who are being tricked by this world's system of things. But they have the answer!

Except when you actually start reading the bible yourself, from start to finish, not skipping around verse to verse like they want you to do, and have to reconcile that the bible is ALL true, then you have to come to the conclusion that what they teach is wrong and the Trinity is true. They also need to read a good bible. The New World Translation is horrible and impossible to follow. It's like reading a google translate version of a chinese web page.

I have tremendous concern and affection for JWs. My parents were (my mom still is) JW. They simply are deceived by the false teaching.

Reading and studying the Bible on your own is a sure way to avoid much of the error in the JW mindset. If you are a JW you are not supposed to confuse yourself by studying without the JW guidelines.

Sparko
01-18-2018, 05:12 AM
I have tremendous concern and affection for JWs. My parents were (my mom still is) JW. They simply are deceived by the false teaching.

Reading and studying the Bible on your own is a sure way to avoid much of the error in the JW mindset. If you are a JW you are not supposed to confuse yourself by studying without the JW guidelines.

exactly. Just reading a good bible (NOT a New World Translation) without preconceptions will cure any JW from their cult. Or even reading some actual apologetic works instead of the Watchtower publications.

And hanging out in places like Theologyweb and actually engaging in a conversation instead of just posting watchtower propaganda and avoiding the topic will also help. So if we can get Bible User to actually USE the Bible and read it without looking through the watchtower filter, he will soon have his eyes opened.

Jedidiah
01-18-2018, 02:24 PM
exactly. Just reading a good bible (NOT a New World Translation) without preconceptions will cure any JW from their cult. Or even reading some actual apologetic works instead of the Watchtower publications.

And hanging out in places like Theologyweb and actually engaging in a conversation instead of just posting watchtower propaganda and avoiding the topic will also help. So if we can get Bible User to actually USE the Bible and read it without looking through the watchtower filter, he will soon have his eyes opened.

Actually even using the New World Translation it is quite clear that Christ is not a created being, as JWs insist. It is true that if you do not know scripture the NWT (using the term translation very very loosely) will create serious error.

Sparko
01-19-2018, 05:00 AM
Actually even using the New World Translation it is quite clear that Christ is not a created being, as JWs insist. It is true that if you do not know scripture the NWT (using the term translation very very loosely) will create serious error.

There are many places where they intentionally add words or change words to fit their theology also. If BU or any JW quotes you the NWT, double check it with a real translation before accepting what it says.

Jedidiah
01-21-2018, 11:17 AM
It looks like BU has taken a vacation. He won't post until he thinks we have forgotten all his errors.

rogue06
01-21-2018, 11:32 AM
There are many places where they intentionally add words or change words to fit their theology also. If BU or any JW quotes you the NWT, double check it with a real translation before accepting what it says.
Kind of like how some liberals tried to sneak a comma into the Second Amendment back in the 90s so as to change its meaning in order to support the erroneous concept that it was about granting the states a right to form militias











26070 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX HAPPY SQUIRREL APPRECIATION DAY! XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 26070

37818
01-27-2018, 08:34 AM
Actually even using the New World Translation it is quite clear that Christ is not a created being, as JWs insist. It is true that if you do not know scripture the NWT (using the term translation very very loosely) will create serious error.

It should be noted the two passages used (Colossians 1:15 & Revelation 3:14) refer to Christ as a creation are post His incarnation and resurrection (i.e. Colossians 1:18 & Revelation 1:5 being the cross references to 1:15 & 3:14).

Jedidiah
01-27-2018, 01:09 PM
It should be noted the two passages used (Colossians 1:15 & Revelation 3:14) refer to Christ as a creation are post His incarnation and resurrection (i.e. Colossians 1:18 & Revelation 1:5 being the cross references to 1:15 & 3:14).

But neither of these actually teach that Christ is a created being. Even the New World Translation does not state any differently. The Bible does not teach that Christ is a created being.

37818
01-29-2018, 06:39 AM
But neither of these actually teach that Christ is a created being. Even the New World Translation does not state any differently. The Bible does not teach that Christ is a created being.

Ah, not created being, but being part of creation. Both passages refer to Christ belonging to creation. In Colossians 1:15 "of all creation," . . . πασης κτισεως. Revelation 3:14, "of the creation," . . . της κτισεως.

In both instances refers to the incarnate Christ in His resurrection. The Son of God became part of His own creation (John 1:3) by way of His incarnation (John 1:10, 14).

Jedidiah
01-29-2018, 10:19 AM
The incarnation does not mean that Christ was a created being, I agree.

37818
01-30-2018, 05:52 AM
The incarnation does not mean that Christ was a created being, I agree.

The two passages cited by JW's referring to Christ as part of creation both refer to His resurrection, He being part of creation solely do to His incarnation (John 1:14). They have absolutely no passages referring to Him being part of creation prior to His incarnation. None whatsoever. And JW's are not aware of this one little big fact.