The Last Days

[John Reece]

Note to Geert and all other cabalists: please, do not post anything in this thread.http://therightscoop.com/christian-china-is-rising/

Eph. 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles, pray to God. 2 Surely you have heard that God in his grace has given me this work to do for your good. 3 God revealed his secret plan and made it known to me. (I have written briefly about this, 4 and if you will read what I have written

[Teallaura]

Um, I can see where the citations support the argument that it may not be the end times but it doesn't seem to support the categorical assertion.

[John Reece]

Um, I can see where the citations support the argument that it may not be the end times but it doesn't seem to support the categorical assertion.

Hi Teallaura.

I woke up this morning with that on my mind; so I am now preparing a post to deal with it. Please let me know what you think after you see it.

[Teallaura]

Okay.

[John Reece]

The Time of the End: Then (past and future), Not Now

In the NT there are two different end-points in time: the first is the time of the end of the OT era that was predicted by Jesus to occur within the lifetime of his contemporaries; the second is the time of the end of the NT era which is unknowable but which can only happen when a certain goal/consummation/end is achieved.

Consider the following diagram:

.........................AD 30_________________________

BC___________________________________________AD 70

The top line represents the New Testament era; the bottom line represents the Old Testament era.

There is a 40 year ―one generation ― overlap between the two eras.

Circa AD 30 the NT era was inaugurated by the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, which marked the beginning of a wholly different era from that of the OT. The NT era is destined to continue until a certain end/goal [τέλος (telos)] is achieved: that is, the maturation of the Body of Christ, the process of which is described by Paul in Ephesians 4:1-16. ― the end/goal being "until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood [(Greek: εἰς ἄνδρα τέλειον "unto a mature man" = the corporate Body of Christ as a single whole mature being], to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

It is not yet possible to say that we are now any where near the end of the process that leads to that goal/end.

When I say that we are not in the end times (or the EndTime, or whatever terminology one might conceivably use), I mean to say that we are not on the threshold of the goal/end that Paul described in Ephesians 4:1-16, and we are not living in the time of the end of the OT era which was centered in the temple in Jerusalem ― in which the first Christians as Jews continued to worship during the 40-year overlap diagramed above ― until the Romans destroyed that temple in AD 70.

John wrote Revelation during the latter end of the 40-year overlap, which is made manifest by the Hebrew/Aramaic nature of the language as well as the content of Revelation, wherein the Temple in the New Jerusalem of the NT era is described in terms that are radically different from terms descriptive of the mundane doomed temple in old Jerusalem: "I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb."

This ― the beginning of the 21st century ― is neither the end time referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:24, nor is it the end time of the OT era that happened before "this generation" ― the last generation of the OT era expired.

[Teallaura]

That certainly deals with the categorical assertion. I'm not sure the assertion it is based on is knowable, however.

It's something to consider.

[John Reece]

That certainly deals with the categorical assertion. I'm not sure the assertion it is based on is knowable, however.

It's something to consider.

I have been considering/pondering/thinking and praying about it for 3 decades.

[John Reece]

The New Covenant

Continued from prior post↑.

Consider the following diagram:

.........................AD 30_________________________

BC___________________________________________AD 70

The top line represents the New Testament era; the bottom line represents the Old Testament era.

Or, to put the same thing differently, the top line represents the New Covenant era; the bottom line represents the Old Covenant era.

The destruction of the physical temple in Jerusalem in AD 70 was not simply the destruction of a building; rather it was the final climax of God's judgement upon the faithless descendants of those who killed the prophets and compounded the deeds of their fathers by killing the Father's own Son.

Consider this parable, which relates to the diagram above:

Matthew 21:33-46 (ESV)

The Parable of the TenantsTherefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits

Now consider this teaching/prophecy, which also relates to the diagram above.

Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

[John Reece]

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus distinguishes the παρουσία (parousia "visitation" Mat 24:27) of the Son of Man from the ἐρχόμενον (erchomenon "coming" Mat 24:30) of the Son of Man. The two terms respectively refer to two different phenomena that relate to two different points in time, one ancient and the other still ― 2000+ years later ― in the indefinite future.

The word "visitation" as a rendering of παρουσία (parousia) is used by R. T. France at Matthew 24:3 in his 2007 NICNT commentary, wherein he gives this explanation of his terminology in a footnote:

TDNTerchomenos] in verse 30

erchomenonverse 29 in describing the destruction of the temple, viewed as an act of divine judgment, whereby the authority of Jesus is vindicated over the Jewish establishment which has rejected him. (For this understanding of the significance of the destruction of the temple, cf. 23:29-39.) The language is allusive rather than specific, and depends for its force on a familiarity with Old Testament imagery which is unfortunately not shared by all modern readers!"

Again, France, this time in his NICNT commentary (Eerdmans, 2007):

Mark 13:26Vit. Const.26:64parousia and the end of the age, but Jesus will give no such sign because the parousia will be sudden and unexpected (verses 27, ). He has urged them too not to interpret current events as signs of the end for Jerusalem (verses ), and while he has himself given them one cryptic sign of when that event is to be expected (verse 15verse 2412:38; 16:1

The parousia ("visitation, arrival, presence") of Christ that is yet future at the beginning of the 21st century is not to be accompanied or preceded by any signs. Rather, it will happen when it is totally unexpected (Mat 24:36-44), so there is no way to know at any time in history that it is imminent, that is, about to happen.

Three decades ago I committed myself to a period of seeking God to disabuse my mind of all presuppositions including my own as well as of others with regard to the meaning of the Olivet Discourse ― all the while repeatedly re-reading the Greek text to marinate my mind in it. What happened via that process was that I was given a clear impression of how thoroughly localized in terms of time, place, and persons involved was the text ― so much so that to project onto or into the text notions of "double-fulfillment" thousands of years later was to rewrite the text and make it say things that it simply did not say.

Teallaura is quite right to say that what the thread title asserts in "not knowable" ― that is, with regard to whether of not this time in which we now live may turn out to be the time that what Jesus taught with regard to his parousia ― his yet future "visitation, arrival, presence" ― will be fulfilled. The point I have been trying to make is that our present generation is not uniquely qualified to be the terminal generation about which Jesus taught in Matthew 24:4-26 and 24:29-35, because that pre-AD 70 generation was the one uniquely specified by Jesus as the one upon which the judgment he was specifying would fall (Mat 23:13-36).

Rather than trying to make the scriptures say and mean for us what Jesus said they meant for his contemporaries, we should be totally focused on living out the gradual growth of the kingdom of God that the parables of Jesus describe, and living the life explained by what Paul wrote in Ephesians 1-3 ― focused not on fantasies of being imminently rescued from the world but rather on manifesting Christ in the world.

[John Reece]

Post repeated to correct a spelling error

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus distinguishes the παρουσία (parousia "visitation" Mat 24:27) of the Son of Man from the ἐρχόμενον (erchomenon "coming" Mat 24:30) of the Son of Man. The two terms respectively refer to two different phenomena that relate to two different points in time, one ancient and the other still ― 2000+ years later ― in the indefinite future.

The word "visitation" as a rendering of παρουσία (parousia) is used by R. T. France at Matthew 24:3 in his 2007 NICNT commentary, wherein he gives this explanation of his terminology in a footnote:

TDNTerchomenos] in verse 30

erchomenonverse 29 in describing the destruction of the temple, viewed as an act of divine judgment, whereby the authority of Jesus is vindicated over the Jewish establishment which has rejected him. (For this understanding of the significance of the destruction of the temple, cf. 23:29-39.) The language is allusive rather than specific, and depends for its force on a familiarity with Old Testament imagery which is unfortunately not shared by all modern readers!"

Again, France, this time in his NICNT commentary (Eerdmans, 2007):

Mark 13:26Vit. Const.26:64parousia and the end of the age, but Jesus will give no such sign because the parousia will be sudden and unexpected (verses 27, ). He has urged them too not to interpret current events as signs of the end for Jerusalem (verses ), and while he has himself given them one cryptic sign of when that event is to be expected (verse 15verse 2412:38; 16:1

The parousia ("visitation, arrival, presence") of Christ that is yet future at the beginning of the 21st century is not to be accompanied or preceded by any signs. Rather, it will happen when it is totally unexpected (Mat 24:36-44), so there is no way to know at any time in history that it is imminent, that is, about to happen.

Three decades ago I committed myself to a period of seeking God to disabuse my mind of all presuppositions including my own as well as of others with regard to the meaning of the Olivet Discourse ― all the while repeatedly re-reading the Greek text to marinate my mind in it. What happened via that process was that I was given a clear impression of how thoroughly localized in terms of time, place, and persons involved was the text ― so much so that to project onto or into the text notions of "double-fulfillment" thousands of years later was to rewrite the text and make it say things that it simply did not say.

Teallaura is quite right to say that what the thread title asserts is "not knowable" ― that is, with regard to whether of not this time in which we now live may turn out to be the time that what Jesus taught with regard to his parousia ― his yet future "visitation, arrival, presence" ― will be fulfilled. The point I have been trying to make is that our present generation is not uniquely qualified to be the terminal generation about which Jesus taught in Matthew 24:4-26 and 24:29-35, because that pre-AD 70 generation was the one uniquely specified by Jesus as the one upon which the judgment he was specifying would fall (Mat 23:13-36).

Rather than trying to make the scriptures say and mean for us what Jesus said they meant for his contemporaries, we should be totally focused on living out the gradual growth of the kingdom of God that the parables of Jesus describe, and living the life explained by what Paul wrote in Ephesians 1-3 ― focused not on fantasies of being imminently rescued from the world but rather on manifesting Christ in the world.

[John Reece]

Hebrews 1:1-2

Text: Hebrews 1:1-2 (NA27):

Πολυμερῶς καὶ πολυτρόπως πάλαι ὁ θεὸς λαλήσας τοῖς πατράσιν ἐν τοῖς προφήταις 2 ἐπ᾿ ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ, ὃν ἔθηκεν κληρονόμον πάντων, δι᾿ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας

Transliteration (Accordance):
Translation (NRSV):

Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds.

Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):

πολυμερῶς : (adjective πολυμερής of many parts), bit by bit, gradually.
πολυτρόπως :(τρόπος way) in many ways.
πάλαι : of old, in time past.
λαλήσας : aorist participle of λαλέω speak.
τοῖς πατράσιν : dative plural of πατήρ, not to be confused with the patriarchs ; our forefathers.
ἐν : ?instrumental by ; better, in.
ἔσχατος : last, ἐπ᾿ ἐσχάτου end ; ἐπ᾿ ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν being LXX expression for the future messianic age, τούτων introduces an eschatological note, as it were in these last days.
ἐλάλησεν : aorist of λαλέω speak.
ἐν υἱῷ : by a son, without article seemingly stressing sonship in contrast to prophets.
ἔθηκεν : aorist of τίθημι set ; appoint.
κληρονόμος : (< κλῆρος lot + νέμω distribute) inheritor.
ἐποίησεν : aorist of ποιέω make, create.
οἱ αἰῶνες : plural Hebraism the created worlds.

Comment from The Epistle to the Hebrews (Hermeneia: Augsburg-Fortress, 1989), by Harold W. Attridge:

2.

.........................AD 30→______________________ →
....................................Ephesians 1-3 "forever and ever"

BC→________________________________█ AD 70
.................................Hebrews 1:1-2↑ "these last days"

[John Reece]

Text: Hebrews 1:1-2 (NA27):

Πολυμερῶς καὶ πολυτρόπως πάλαι ὁ θεὸς λαλήσας τοῖς πατράσιν ἐν τοῖς προφήταις 2 ἐπ᾿ ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ, ὃν ἔθηκεν κληρονόμον πάντων, δι᾿ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας

Transliteration (Accordance):
Translation (NRSV):

Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds.

Grammatical Analysis (Zerwick/BDAG, meanings in this context):

πολυμερῶς : (adjective πολυμερής of many parts), bit by bit, gradually.
πολυτρόπως :(τρόπος way) in many ways.
πάλαι : of old, in time past.
λαλήσας : aorist participle of λαλέω speak.
τοῖς πατράσιν : dative plural of πατήρ, not to be confused with the patriarchs ; our forefathers.
ἐν : ?instrumental by ; better, in.
ἔσχατος : last, ἐπ᾿ ἐσχάτου end ; ἐπ᾿ ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν being LXX expression for the future messianic age, τούτων introduces an eschatological note, as it were in these last days.
ἐλάλησεν : aorist of λαλέω speak.
ἐν υἱῷ : by a son, without article seemingly stressing sonship in contrast to prophets.
ἔθηκεν : aorist of τίθημι set ; appoint.
κληρονόμος : (< κλῆρος lot + νέμω distribute) inheritor.
ἐποίησεν : aorist of ποιέω make, create.
οἱ αἰῶνες : plural Hebraism the created worlds.

Comment from The Epistle to the Hebrews (Hermeneia: Augsburg-Fortress, 1989), by Harold W. Attridge:

2.

.........................AD 30→______________________ →
....................................Ephesians 1-3 "forever and ever"

BC→________________________________█ AD 70
.................................Hebrews 1:1-2↑ "these last days"

The top line of the diagram represents the "new age" inaugurated by Jesus' death/resurrection/ascension circa AD 30.

[Bill the Cat]

I honestly disagree that the OT era ended in 70 AD. I think it ended on Calvary when the Lord was sacrificed, the veil rent in twain, and the old system of priesthood became obsolete. Novatian, citing Paul, called Christ "The end of the Law", as did Irenaeus and Augustine.

[John Reece]

I honestly disagree that the OT era ended in 70 AD. I think it ended on Calvary when the Lord was sacrificed, the veil rent in twain, and the old system of priesthood became obsolete. Novatian, citing Paul, called Christ "The end of the Law", as did Irenaeus and Augustine.

Good point, one that I will not dispute.

I have been thinking about the fact that the disciples of Jesus continued to observe the law, to attend temple services, to conduct themselves as Jews practicing circumcision to distinguish themselves from Gentiles for many years after the death, resurrection, and enthronement of Jesus.

Not only did Christians consider themselves to be Jews for many years after Jesus' death on the cross, they were considered to be such by both non-Christian Jews and the Roman government during the time from circa AD 30 to circa AD 70.

The destruction of the temple marked the end of all that once and forever.

So I cannot help but see, for many reasons, an overlap between the years from Jesus' death circa AD 30 to the cessation of Christian observance of Jewish services in the temple circa AD 70 ― even as I accept your point about what in reality happened in the realm of the Spirit when Jesus died on the cross circa AD 30: that is why I say that that date marks the inauguration of Christ's reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords forever and ever.

I appreciate your response, because everything I post is tentative pending correction by both friends and further consideration of biblical texts and history ― not to mention ultimately when I see Him face to face .

Thanks, Bill!

[John Reece]

Hebrews 8:13

Further thoughts with regard to this post↑.

The Old Covenant was not an invisible reality confined to the realm of the Spirit and limited to unilateral action on the part of God. It was a public reality initiated by God but also engaged in by the people of the Covenant.

Such a Covenant would not likely come to a final end without any public action corresponding to the public nature of its beginning.

With that in mind, consider Hebrews 8:13 in the context of the entire chapter (color emphasis added):

will soon disappear.

Bill's point relates to the fact that Jesus' death on the cross made the Old Covenant obsolete; my point relates to the fact that, at the time the book of Hebrews was written, the Old Covenant was obsolete; however, it had not, as of that time, yet disappeared ― that did not happen until AD 70.