Some notes on "the time of the end"

[Geert van den Bos]

Since I am not allowed to post in a thread started by John Reece I will place some notes here.

1) γενεά, "generation" (Matthew 24:34) is not meant to be (the same as) a certain period of time, and certainly not a period of 40 years.

Matthew begins with:
Βίβλος γενέσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ Δαυὶδ υἱοῦ Ἀβραάμ = Book of birth/origin of Jesus Christ son of David son of Abraham.

cf. LXX Genesis 2:4,
αὕτη ἡ βίβλος γενέσεως οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς = This is the book of birth/origin of heaven and earth

and LXX Geneis 5:1,
αὕτη ἡ βίβλος γενέσεως ἀνθρώπων = This is the book of birth/origin of men

And then Matthew mentions all the generations from Abraham to Jesus, forced into a numerological scheme:
Matthew 1:17, Πᾶσαι οὖν αἱ γενεαὶ ἀπὸ Ἀβραὰμ ἕως Δαυὶδ γενεαὶ δεκατέσσαρες, καὶ ἀπὸ Δαυὶδ ἕως τῆς μετοικεσίας Βαβυλῶνος γενεαὶ δεκατέσσαρες, καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς μετοικεσίας Βαβυλῶνος ἕως τοῦ Χριστοῦ γενεαὶ δεκατέσσαρες =
So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.

You might note that "the deportation to Babylon" is congruent with the destruction of the first Temple, and also that Daniel 9 counts seventy yearweeks from the destruction of the first Temple to the destruction of the rebuild one, which seems to be a numeroligical scheme picked up by Matthew, Matthew 18:21-22, Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times, ἑβδομηκοντάκις ἑπτά.
cf. LXX Daniel 9:24, ἑβδομήκοντα ἑβδομάδες ἐκρίθησαν ἐπὶ τὸν λαόν σου καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν πόλιν σιων

So at least it might be clear that Matthew doesn't consider "generation" as a certain period of time, and certainly not as a 40-years period of time --

which beyond that is blatant nonsense.


2) ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη , this generation (Matthew 24:34) is not (meant to be) all men living by the time Jesus was crucified (of whom some would be still alive by the time the Temple was destroyed by the Romans).

Which might already be clear from Matthew 23:36, ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἥξει ταῦτα πάντα ἐπὶ τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην, Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. -- "all these things" here to be underatood as äll these bloods" --i.e. " all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah" --
Abel being the one to be avenged sevenfold, Genesis 4:13-15, Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear (...)Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold and next it reads. v.24 If Cain's revenge is sevenfold,
then Lamech's is seventy-sevenfold.”

Same numbers to be found in Daniel 9 and Matthew 18 ...

"all the righteous blood shed" = πᾶν αἷμα δίκαιον ἐκχυννόμενον
cf. Matthew 26:28, τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου τῆς διαθήκης τὸ περὶ πολλῶν ἐκχυννόμενον εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν for this is my blood of the covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins
and Matthew 27:25, καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς πᾶς ὁ λαὸς εἶπεν, Τὸ αἷμα αὐτοῦ ἐφ' ἡμᾶς καὶ ἐπὶ τὰ τέκνα ἡμῶν, And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”
--

Which means "this generation" is not to be confined to a certain group of people living by the time of Jesus' crucifixion.

It might be noted that they did choose for Barabbas (= "son of the father") , not just Barabbas but so called Jesus Barabbas -- Matthew 27:16, εἶχον δὲ τότε δέσμιον ἐπίσημον λεγόμενον [Ἰησοῦν] Βαραββᾶν, And they had then a notorious prisoner so called Jesus Barabbas - which builds on Matthew 1:16, Ἰακὼβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσὴφ τὸν ἄνδρα Μαρίας, ἐξ ἧς ἐγεννήθη Ἰησοῦς ὁ λεγόμενος Χριστός, and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born, Jesus who is called Christ.



So it seems clear that "this generation" is not confined to the first-century ...

Also now, even now, you can choose for Christ.


(to be continued if you allow -- in the meanwhile I would like to get substantial response)

[John Reece]

... γενεά, "generation" (Matthew 24:34) is not meant to be (the same as) a certain period of time, and certainly not a period of 40 years.

I do no not recall saying that γενεά, "generation" (Matthew 24:34) = a period of 40 years. What I noted was that the period from the death/resurrection/ascension of Jesus until the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in AD 70 happened to be forty years.

So at least it might be clear that Matthew doesn't consider "generation" as a certain period of time, and certainly not as a 40-years period of time

Matthew considered the word γενεά, "generation", to be the Greek rendering of Hebrew דּוֹר (dōr), which is rightly defined in William L. Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, (which is a condensed and translated version of Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros by Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner):

דּוֹר singular: circuit, lifetime, generation (from a man's birth to the birth of his first son; the totality of (adult) contemporaries; a time with its noteworthy events and people) ... plural: generations דֹּרוֹתֵינוּ אַחֲרֵינוּ (dōrôṯênû ʾaḥᵃrênû) the generations coming after us (Joshua 22:27); בְּדֹרֹתָיו (bᵉḏōrōṯāyw) among his contemporaries (Genesis 6:9).

The rest of Geert's post consists of his usual cabalistic nonsense, which is why I request that he not post in any of my threads.

[Geert van den Bos]

[size=4][font=times new roman]

I do no not recall saying that γενεά, "generation" (Matthew 24:34) = a period of 40 years. What I noted was that the period from the death/resurrection/ascension of Jesus until the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in AD 70 happened to be forty years.

Short of memory?

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post244090

There is a 40 year ―one generation ― overlap between the two eras.

[Geert van den Bos]

Matthew considered the word γενεά, "generation", to be the Greek rendering of Hebrew דּוֹר (dōr), which is rightly defined in William L. Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, (which is a condensed and translated version of Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros by Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner):

דּוֹר singular: circuit, lifetime, generation (from a man's birth to the birth of his first son; the totality of (adult) contemporaries; a time with its noteworthy events and people) ... plural: generations דֹּרוֹתֵינוּ אַחֲרֵינוּ (dōrôṯênû ʾaḥᵃrênû) the generations coming after us (Joshua 22:27); בְּדֹרֹתָיו (bᵉḏōrōṯāyw) among his contemporaries (Genesis 6:9).

"dor" can also mean epoch .

[John Reece]

Short of memory?

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post244090

Absolutely. At age 81 my lifelong poor memory has been grossly exacerbated.

[John Reece]

"dor" can also mean epoch .

Rarely. Would you say that "epoch" is what is meant by genea in Matthew?

Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of "epoch": "a period of time that is very important in history."

Note that even the rare usage of דּוֹר (dōr) to mean "epoch" bears the sense of a period of time.

[Geert van den Bos]

Rarely. Would you say that "epoch" is what is meant by genea in Matthew?

Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of "epoch": "a period of time that is very important in history."

Note that even the rare usage of דּוֹר (dōr) to mean "epoch" bears the sense of a period of time.

not a certain period of time, like forty or fifty or hundred years.

"dor hamabul" = the generation of the flood -- it seeming to denote all of mankind living before the flood.

Genesis 6: 7,
And the Lord said, "I will blot out man, whom I created, from upon the face of the earth, from man to cattle to creeping thing, to the fowl of the heavens, for I regret that I made them."

v.13,
And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth has become full of robbery because of them, and behold I am destroying them from the earth

From the creation of Adam till the flood was a period, a time, of 1656 years.

[John Reece]

not a certain period of time, like forty or fifty or hundred years.

Num. 32:13 And the LORD’S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness for forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD had disappeared.

Forty years was required to eliminate a generation.

"dor hamabul" = the generation of the flood -- it seeming to denote all of mankind living before the flood.

You do not cite any context or verse in which the phrase occurs, so I can only judge by the limited information you have provided, which on the face of it does not indicate that "the generation of the flood" denotes all of mankind before the flood; rather, the natural sense appears to be the generation during which the flood occurred.

Genesis 6: 7,
And the Lord said, "I will blot out man, whom I created, from upon the face of the earth, from man to cattle to creeping thing, to the fowl of the heavens, for I regret that I made them."

v.13,
And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth has become full of robbery because of them, and behold I am destroying them from the earth

From the creation of Adam till the flood was a period, a time, of 1656 years.

What does any of that have to do with the following usage?

דּוֹר singular: circuit, lifetime, generation (from a man's birth to the birth of his first son; the totality of (adult) contemporaries; a time with its noteworthy events and people) ... plural: generations דֹּרוֹתֵינוּ אַחֲרֵינוּ (dōrôṯênû ʾaḥᵃrênû) the generations coming after us (Joshua 22:27); בְּדֹרֹתָיו (bᵉḏōrōṯāyw) among his contemporaries (Genesis 6:9).

The word in question does not occur in any of the texts you quoted.

[Geert van den Bos]

Num. 32:13 And the LORD’S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness for forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD had disappeared.

Forty years was required to eliminate a generation.

Numbers 14:33-34,

Your children shall wander in the desert for forty years and bear your defection until the last of your corpses has fallen in the desert. According to the number of days which you toured the Land forty days, a day for each year, you will [thus] bear your iniquities for forty years; thus you will come to know My alienation.

Rashi:

forty years: Not one of them died before the age of sixty. This is why forty [years] was decreed, so that those who were twenty years old would reach the age of sixty. The first year was included although it preceded the dispatching of the spies. For from the time they made the [golden] calf, this decree had been in [God’s] mind, but He waited until their measure [of wickedness] was filled. This is what is stated, “But on the day I make an accounting”-at the time of the spies-“I shall reckon their sin” (Exod. 32:34). Here too, it says, “you will bear your iniquities” [in the plural, indicating] two iniquities: the [one of the] calf and the [one of] the complaint. In calculating their ages, Scripture considers part of a year like a whole year, and when they their sixtieth year, those who had been twenty years old [now] died. - [Midrash Tanchuma Shelach 13]

I don't think you can equate this to Matthew 24:34 (Matthew doesn't mention 40 years)

You do not cite any context or verse in which the phrase occurs, so I can only judge by the limited information you have provided, which on the face of it does not indicate that "the generation of the flood" denotes all of mankind before the flood; rather, the natural sense appears to be the generation during which the flood occurred.

I need some time to explain, time that I have not right now (my mother-in-law came to visit)

What does any of that have to do with the following usage?

דּוֹר singular: circuit, lifetime, generation (from a man's birth to the birth of his first son; the totality of (adult) contemporaries; a time with its noteworthy events and people) ... plural: generations דֹּרוֹתֵינוּ אַחֲרֵינוּ (dōrôṯênû ʾaḥᵃrênû) the generations coming after us (Joshua 22:27); בְּדֹרֹתָיו (bᵉḏōrōṯāyw) among his contemporaries (Genesis 6:9).

"contemporaries" is a translation. They might include all the generations of Adam (Genesis 5:1) - Noach is the tenth generation, the only time there is mentioning of "son", Genesis 5:28, And Lamech lived a hundred and eighty two years, and he begot a son.


So actually scripture presents him as "ben Adam"= son of man.

[John Reece]

Rashi:

I don't think you can equate this to Matthew 24:34 (Matthew doesn't mention 40 years)

I do not equate what Rashi said to Matthew 24:34. I have not said that Matthew mentions 40 years. I not do understand the word rendered "generation" to mean 40 years in Matthew.

The word in question has a semantic range that varies with context, and it so happens that in certain contexts in the Old Testament a 40 year time span approximates the semantic range of דּוֹר:

דּוֹר singular: circuit, lifetime, generation (from a man's birth to the birth of his first son; the totality of (adult) contemporaries; a time with its noteworthy events and people) ... plural: generations דֹּרוֹתֵינוּ אַחֲרֵינוּ (dōrôṯênû ʾaḥᵃrênû) the generations coming after us (Joshua 22:27); בְּדֹרֹתָיו (bᵉḏōrōṯāyw) among his contemporaries (Genesis 6:9).

"contemporaries" is a translation. They might include all the generations of Adam (Genesis 5:1) - Noach is the tenth generation, the only time there is mentioning of "son", Genesis 5:28, And Lamech lived a hundred and eighty two years, and he begot a son.


So actually scripture presents him as "ben Adam"= son of man.

Yes, "contemporaries" is a translation, which is a sense included in the semantic range of the word in question; that is, which the word may mean if it fits a given context. This fact would not apply in the context of Genesis 5:28.

Your rambling on about scripture presenting someone as '"ben Adam"= son of man' is an example of why I do not allow you to post in my threads ― your cabalist loose associations are quite distracting and irrelevant to any given discussion of any subject.

[Geert van den Bos]

[size=4][font=times new roman]

I do not equate what Rashi said to Matthew 24:34. I have not said that Matthew mentions 40 years. I not do understand the word rendered "generation" to mean 40 years in Matthew.

You did present Numbers 32:13 as kind of proof that "the passing away of this generation" of Matthew 24:34 needs a timespan of 40 years.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post244415

Forty years was required to eliminate a generation

.

The word in question has a semantic range that varies with context, and it so happens that in certain contexts in the Old Testament a 40 year time span approximates the semantic range of דּוֹר

Just in case of the "dor hamidbar" -- which after Numbers 14:34 was according to the number of days that the spies toured the land, a day for each year.

Yes, "contemporaries" is a translation, which is a sense included in the semantic range of the word in question; that is, which the word may mean if it fits a given context. This fact would not apply in the context of Genesis 5:28.

All of mankind would have been destroyed by the flood and also the remembrance of the beforegoing generations if Noach wouldn't have found grace in the eyes of the Lord. No one would have ever known that there had been human life on earth, because there would have been no man left to relate. It would have meant "the end".

[Geert van den Bos]

The Romans did destroy the temple but they couldn't destroy the covenant (between God and man). i.e. the destruction of the temple didn't mean the end of the "old testament". The covenant doesn't need the temple to exist, because "see I am with you all the days until the end of time" --
"where two or three are gathered in my name I am in their midst".

Οὐ βλέπετε ταῦτα πάντα = Don't stare blind at the ruins.

[Geert van den Bos]

The New Testament has no beginning -- it is eternal , eternal covenant between God and mankind -- eternal, since God is eternal and not a modern phenomenon.

Revelation 13:8,

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world[

[John Reece]

The New Testament has no beginning -- it is eternal , eternal covenant between God and mankind -- eternal, since God is eternal and not a modern phenomenon.

Revelation 13:8,

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world[

Then how is it that Jeremiah speaks of a covenant to begin yet future to him?

Note the highlighted future tense verbs:

Jeremiah 31:31 The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer. 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them, never to draw back from doing good to them; and I will put the fear of me in their hearts, so that they may not turn from me.

[Geert van den Bos]

Then how is it that Jeremiah speaks of a covenant to begin yet future to him?

Note the highlighted future tense verbs:

Jeremiah 31:31 The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer. 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them, never to draw back from doing good to them; and I will put the fear of me in their hearts, so that they may not turn from me.

Everlasting, "olam" = with no beginning and no end.

The resurrected one (Jesus) lives eternal, he was already there when God said: "Let there be light"