What if Carthage had won the Punic Wars?

[Nicholas]

Does anyone have any thoughts on what would have happened if Carthage had won the Punic wars?

[Durthorin]

Does anyone have any thoughts on what would have happened if Carthage had won the Punic wars?

Rome was a military power.. Carthage's power was based on trade and its navy mostly... I'm not aware enough of the social differences in culture to see how they would have differed on their application of empire.

[nomad]

Hmm, that's interesting... if that's true, then Carthage didn't even need to win, just survive. It would probably have significantly limited Roman expansion... the absence of the Roman empire would have changed a lot, especially in western europe. Without the common cultural heritage to draw from, there would probably be even more splintering of the states... and we might all be Tartar today...

[Durthorin]

Hmm, that's interesting... if that's true, then Carthage didn't even need to win, just survive. It would probably have significantly limited Roman expansion... the absence of the Roman empire would have changed a lot, especially in western europe. Without the common cultural heritage to draw from, there would probably be even more splintering of the states... and we might all be Tartar today...

Reading I've found that it appears militarily they were very iffy, most of the armies they raised were good parts mercenary as opposed to Rome's. Which may explain why they seemed to loose so often against the legions. Also there is the entire infant sacrefice as part of their religious culture that seems to hang over them even if currently their is argument as to if and how much of this took place. Their supposed government structure was somewhat more democratic than Rome. But Rome's Republic was more democratic until imperial Rome came into being.

I can't reading what I've read see them as creating a single unified Empire but more of a trading empire/confederation.

[nomad]

I could see them acting more as a harasser... since they didn't like Rome, and (if they kept their navy up enough) if they could keep the Romans away, and they were more of a trading nation (which usually is economically good), then they might have used some of that money to supply rebel states such as Palestine which would have kept the Romans busy and made it much more difficult to hold the empire together. If Rome had to keep its troops nearby just to prevent rebellion, it would have reduced Rome's ability to conquer new places.

And this would have had far reaching impacts beyond just Roman territorial expansion... many political careers were made and broken in Roman wars. How many emperors made their names by leading armies in foreign theaters? Julius Caesar is a prime example.

[runtmc2jc]

Carthage's roots were from Sidon/Tyre area - escaping the Assyrian conquest and settling in North Africa. Hannibal was a commander of considerable skills and personality and had the ability to unite men of different backgrounds to fight for him. At one point his army pressed Rome and he actually hurled a spear at the gates, but they interpreted an impending storm as a bad sign and postponed the assault. Hannibal did inflict serious damage to the Roman legions several times, but was unable to engage the enemy as he wanted.... Rome played the rope-a-dope game and ultimately drew off Hannibal's forces by attacking Carthage itself. Nonetheless, Hannibal is considered one of the great military minds of ancient times.

[freethinker]

Poul Anderson wrote a well researched alternative history novel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delenda_Est) about this subject. Rome was destroyed. Judaism including Islam and Christianity did not exist. There was no science. Technological progress was slow.
I think in reality the result would be unpredictable as a result of chaos theory. Interestingly Julius Caesar was probably the first to recognize chaos theory : "Important consequences result from trivial events."

[runtmc2jc]

Poul Anderson wrote a well researched alternative history novel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delenda_Est) about this subject. Rome was destroyed. Judaism including Islam and Christianity did not exist. There was no science. Technological progress was slow.
I think in reality the result would be unpredictable as a result of chaos theory. Interestingly Julius Caesar was probably the first to recognize chaos theory : "Important consequences result from trivial events."

I guess he's surmising that Carthage would have destroyed Judaism, since Judaism predates the Carthaginian empire by centuries.......and from a theological point of view, that would never have happened as the Jews, Israel, and on down to the Messiah and ultimately Christianity - were all pre-determined/prohpesied by G-d (through the prophets) to exist to play their roles in the redemption of man.

[freethinker]

I guess he's surmising that Carthage would have destroyed Judaism, since Judaism predates the Carthaginian empire by centuries.......and from a theological point of view, that would never have happened as the Jews, Israel, and on down to the Messiah and ultimately Christianity - were all pre-determined/prohpesied by G-d (through the prophets) to exist to play their roles in the redemption of man.

I think Anderson's point of view was that Judaic religion spread through the Roman Empire. In the absence of that Empire the religions would simply peter out. Can't remember the plot exactly. Here is a free download: delenda est (http://rapidshare.com/files/32421926/Anderson__Poul_-_Delenda_Est..htm)