A burning question on sin and perfection. Help, please!

[Demolition Man]

So, I've called myself a Christian for many years now. My whole life, however, I've heard about the doctrines of OSAS and eternal security, yet I didn't know what to make of verses like, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" or "He who sins is of the devil" or "Be perfect as I am perfect" or "If anyone says they know Him (Jesus) yet does not keep His commands, he is a liar and the truth is not in him". These are just a few verses of many on the topic of sin, obedience, or perfection of which I've read and have had thoughts.

Last week, I ran into a church group from Woodville, Mississippi...Consuming Fire Fellowship. I think they are a holiness church of some type, because they are of the persuasion that if you call yourself a Christian and you sin, you are a liar. They believe that as a Christian, God has forgiven you of your PAST sins but has also given you the power to live ABOVE possible future sins. If you do not believe that or accept it, then somewhere along the line (to them), you are not a Christian. Here is one of their articles:

http://www.consumingfirefellowship.org/Obedience.htm

I've actually been dealing with this for years, and I've asked the question about this topic to a few trusted friends and mentors, and all of you know the answer I always get: "that's crap" or "we know that isn't true". Well, I'll be honest; I've read their case on their website and a few others such as Charles Finney, etc., and while I certainly do not consider myself a fool or an idiot, I simply cannot read what they say and brush it off as "crap". And I find myself saying inside, "Well, this sounds really hard-hitting, but...I hope that it isn't right". I am a little paranoid by nature, but can usually forget about it, but with a topic like this, it worries me badly. The reason why is because I know almost NO ONE who would fit the bill of a true Christian under the belief that you can't sin anymore and call yourself a Christian.

Now, before anyone here gives the traditional answer of "that's crap" or something similar, I would really like to ask if some of you can give some true, deep, OBJECTIVE wisdom to this topic. I've heard enough of the cliches and platitudes about how this isn't true; does anyone here have the knowledge to speak about this topic without a one-line answer or even this, heh, YOUR OWN desire for what they say to not be true? :eek:

I am not in any way, shape, or form trying to start a war or a dissension amongst Christians; I am honestly in pretty bad shape for the last week or so (which has really been a few years but I keep sweeping it under a rug) from thinking about this and I want to come to a definite and clear decision about this and put to rest all of the feelings of hopelessness or despair or just plain not-knowing.

I have more to say about this, for sure, but this will suffice in getting my initial question out there. All advice is appreciated.

--Shane Jr.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I just wanted you to know I've seen your question. I've got a lot on my plate now, but I'll get to it as soon as I can.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hello Demolition Man. Thanks for your question.

I gotta tell you that I can really relate to this question as the question of OSAS was one that really started me seeking the truth of what I believe. Have I reached a clear conclusion on this doctrine yet? Actually, no. Thus, I'm not going to say authoritatively that one view is right and one is wrong. I will merely speak about what I have found.

The problem in the article you linked mainly is this:

[1] That Christ abolished the moral law.

[2] That Christians are no longer obliged to observe it.

[3] That one branch of Christian liberty is, liberty from obeying the commandments of God.

[4] That it is bondage to do a thing because it is commanded, or forbear it because it is forbidden.

[5] That a believer is not obligated to use the ordinance of God, or to do good works.

[6] That a preacher ought not to exhort to good works; not unbelievers, because it is hurtful; not believers, because it is needless

The problem is, even when I definitely was a believer in OSAS, I did NOT believe any of this. I believe this group has built up a huge straw man in that the idea of OSAS is that "Live however you want and don't worry about righteousness." Everyone I know who teaches OSAS teaches that we should live a righteous and holy life.

You do not go to such a church and hear the preacher saying, "How many of you comitted sin X?" You don't then see hands go up and the preacher saying, "Good. You're forgiven." In fact, Spurgeon once said that he had seen his sins as a trifle but once he came to believe in OSAS, he saw them as hideous.

So do we all show a lack of love for God? I'd say so. I know I don't live a perfect life. I'm quite confident no one else on here does either. Even among the rest of the staff here at TWeb, I'm sure you could go to each one and ask them if they live a perfect life and they'll say no.

One problem is we look at just actions usually. There are so many attitudes that we shouldn't have and some of them are so subtle that we can easily forget them.

However, I will state that your concern over such a thing is a sign of salvation from what I've read. I would say that is likely the work of the Holy Spirit.

And friend, let me end with this one piece of advice. I say that I choose to not worry about the OSAS debate much anymore. I just simply say we all do this. Trust God. Do what we can to live as we ought. No one is against holy living, so let us live holy and godly lives and trust Christ when we don't do as we ought.

Hope this helps!

[Demolition Man]

Well, you say that Christians sin. You say that people on TWeb's staff sin. Well, what then of the verse, "He who sins is of the devil?" or "If ye love me, keep my commands" or "be perfect as I am perfect"? I'm not trying to plead their case; I'm merely saying that we read verses like these and just seem to automatically throw in a popular 21st-century quote, "Well, it doesn't really mean exactly that". I'm not really arguing over the OSAS stuff, per se.

I don't think that me being troubled over this is a sure sign of salvation for me. Being troubled is not salvation. To put it point blank: if Jesus says, "if ye love me, keep my commands" and I don't keep some of His commands, then it seems to me that I don't truly love him. That's a hard thing to say, and perhaps I am wrong, but that's just what it seems like to me.

I'm actually surprised that more people haven't thought that this needs any discussion.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Hello again! Let's look!

Well, you say that Christians sin. You say that people on TWeb's staff sin. Well, what then of the verse, "He who sins is of the devil?" or "If ye love me, keep my commands" or "be perfect as I am perfect"? I'm not trying to plead their case; I'm merely saying that we read verses like these and just seem to automatically throw in a popular 21st-century quote, "Well, it doesn't really mean exactly that". I'm not really arguing over the OSAS stuff, per se.

For the first one, I'd say look at the Greek. The Biblical languages forum is good for that. My understanding is that it indicates a lifestyle where sin is commonplace and the norm.

If you love me, keep my commands. God knows when we stumble though. This is why the Lord's prayer has us say "Forgive us our trespasses."

The last one? Dostoyevsky even said that that was an argument for the afterlife since we would need the afterlife to achieve it. It could be perfection might refer to a life of holiness where you are separate, pure, and complete.

I don't think that me being troubled over this is a sure sign of salvation for me. Being troubled is not salvation. To put it point blank: if Jesus says, "if ye love me, keep my commands" and I don't keep some of His commands, then it seems to me that I don't truly love him. That's a hard thing to say, and perhaps I am wrong, but that's just what it seems like to me.

I'm actually surprised that more people haven't thought that this needs any discussion.

But if you didn't love him, you wouldn't care if you were keeping his commands or not! You don't want to go against him only because you love him.

Actually, more people are posting here, but check the stickies in this section and you'll see why they aren't coming up. I simply have to be fair.

However, my friend Johnny Nazarene wishes to start a thread for you in a public discussion area on TWeb. I'd suggest contacting him about that.

Hope this helps!
Apologiaphoenix