Exact Daniel Timeline

[David]

Hi and thanks for the invite, but I am not a student at a university just a student of the Lord now and a 'missionary' since university long long ago.

Anyway, my time is limited, but scripturially it says enquire whoin is worthy, and abide there til you go hence...and so let me see if there are students here.,,and those more noble than those in Thessalonicka.

((((Whew ....The icons to the left are annoying ...... and distracting.)))

And seeing I and we are in the real world, and a real horrendous war is about to be waged by America for her own greed and self-interests according to the Lord's Will in allowing her to bring the world to almost WW3 and then the Covenant of daniel..

So let's check out, Daniel's words which were confirmed by Jesus for he gives an exact and precise and concise and mathematical Timeline that is orderly and scripturial.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

and in words

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Daniel9.html

So the question is do you agree or disagree with these numnbers and these references. And what timeline do you have in comparison ?

I would ask that Preterists or whatever they are called NOT respond in anyway, as I have zero patience with such a doctrine of nonsense. They can discuss their doctrine elsewhere I would assume, as there is plenty of room. for their negating of all prophecy. And I don;t want to seem rude by responding to them, nor evading their dumb questions that make zero sense and have sero credibility.

If they had any reason, or logic or spirituality they would have a timeline and they absolutely can't because they are as disjointed as their theory. Nevertheless they can surely read this thread if they like.

Sorry all, time is of the essense and no time for me personnally to chat with people that don;t know the very basic principle of the Lord. If they don;t know, then they weren't meant to know. And so I would ask that only believers in prophecy respond here about specifics and time and direction and the scenario of real events that will be happenning AFTER the COVENANT is signed.

Thanks, you can obviously respond however you like, but if you want a different point of view or a confirming point of view of what you already know, do try and stay on topic concerning the future and its time frames according to the LORD.

Blessings to you if you are searching and learning

IHS

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TimeProphecy.html

[Sozo]

The end of the world took place 2000 years ago...


Heb 9:26

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

[David]

As mentioned, please, please focus on Daniel and people that think the end of the world has already happenned, please please don't respond, but start your own thread.

This is a serious thread about prophecy not about one verse that doesn't correlate with any known timelines or any of the Lord's future events.

Preterists please start your own thread.

Thanks

David

PS) The end of the world has already happenned.... how ridiculous, next they will say that jesus is ruling and there is everlasting righteousness, the trumpets have sounded, and the Battle of Armeggeddon already happenned secretly, blah blah blah... let's get real and talk seriously about the Lord's serious prophecy.

Otherwise I am out of here.

I saw a good posting from some one below about how Mathew absolutely shows that Preterists have no basis.

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RaptureAfterTribulation.html

But please don't post your comments about this, unless you have already understood this very basic of prophecy, that makes you want to learn more rather than negating all prophecy as the Preterists do.

Only serious students of prophecy need post. Thanks

[Sozo]

Hey Dee Dee.. I got called a "Preterist" :rofl:

WRONG!!!

[efta777]

Okay, I'm a preterist, but I'm not going to try and debate you on futurism/preterism... my question is simply this: You sound very confident that the possible U.S. military action is a sure sign of the endtimes- why?
(Oh, and I'd love to talk some sense into you about the real reasons for this war, beyond America's greed and self-interest. Just head on over to the podium forum if you want)

[David]

Yes, you are definitely a Preterist, wherever that silly name came from, as it is not pre-but past tense nonsense and negates all prophecy and dilludes people into fantasies and non-thinking.

But that's for your threads, this one concerns the truth about prophecy and the future. And the start of the timeline that is absolutely unconditional is the signing of the Covenant of Daniel. This gives the security to build the 3rd temple, and any one that knows the basics of prophecy realizes the 3rd temple has to be built. This can't be done now , and so we await the vile acts that bring it about and forces the combatants to sign such a religious, political and military agreement to ensure the security of Israel and especially Jerusalem and the mount.

America or Merica from Britian roots, is definitely one of the toes or horns that is destroyed by the A.C. For the AC will arise in Russia after the signing of the Covenant, and will be against the Covenant as spoken so clearly concerning in Daniel 8 and 11. Its cohort britian shall surely be one of the other ones as she is complicit with America, her offsrping in this next war and the following wars after the Covenant is signed.

For even now if you know current events, deplorable Britian has joined America in violating the SALT agreement and is working on a nuclear shield Star War system which will allow her to strike unilaterally any cuntry it chooses.... but the problem is Russia will be forced to do the same, and according to prophecy Russia , the homeland of the vile AC will get the shield first and strike the Harlot without retaliation, and destroy her in one literal hour.
(See http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Onesidedwar.html )

So America's destruction is in prophecy but she isn't around as a power in the Tribulation, when the whole world yields to the Beast and its MARK. (SEE Anti-Christ Board http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Anti-ChristsProphecies.html )

So America is in prophecy and normal honest readers see her easily when reading Revelation.

But that is not the topic of this thread, yet you are welcome to start a new thread about America's atrocious behaviour and the next vile war for oil, that any searcher of truth can easily find out as long as they are not deluded by church doctrine. A student of life can see it, if not, it means they are not meant to see it. For the blind shall be blind, and having eyes they will see not as the Lord has said.

But this topic is the exact and mathematical days of daniel and how the events follow each other and correspond exactly to all the prophets words, and we are talking about all the prophets from Moses onward, even though Adam knew that the Son of Man was coming as well.

So the Covenant is the start of the LAST 7 years, and Lord willing it is about to happen with this vile war...upon the innocent lives of those in Iraq, and which will spread to other countries unfortunately. Nevertheless the Lord shall take care of them and yet shall punish those responsible for such atrocities.

According to scriptures and current events

All the best to the searchers and seekers of Jesus' truths

David jay Jordan

[Hitch]

9,10,,,,,,,19,20,,,,,,,,,29,30,,,,,,,39,40,,,,,,,,,49,50,,,,,,59,60,,,,,,69


There is only one correct number to complete the sequence.


H

[Dee Dee Warren]

Admin Note I do request that we honor David's request and not post in his thread if we hold to preterism. We are certainly free to start our own thread challenging any of these ideas.... Thank you!!

[Hitch]

Dee Dee Warren:
Admin Note I do request that we honor David's request and not post in his thread if we hold to preterism. We are certainly free to start our own thread challenging any of these ideas.... Thank you!! Absolutely. I failed to notice that request.


HITCH

[Dee Dee Warren]

Thank you, I figured as much!

[efta777]

David,
First off, what was all that nonsense about my user name? I must warn you that when I came up with that name I was a futurist, though my eschatological bearings had no affect on it... So I have no idea what you're trying to say...
Second, I noticed you're from Canada...That explains alot ;) Just kidding, I actually live about an hour south of Vancouver and I visit Canada all the time and have nothing against ya'll.
Lastly, I skimmed those links you gave, and I can honestly say that based on your methods of interpreting prophecy, I can't think of any rational way of debating you on this without getting preterism involved

But one more question that I hope you'll be able to answer... The link you gave has very general scriptural references (I.E. "revelation 17 & 18). I'd appreciate it if you could supply some specific verses and a summary of your line of reasoning based on these verses, then maybe we could work off of that.

[David]

Issac,

Go over the easy to understand future scenario's of revelation to understand Daniel

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Revelation.html

or the longer rev Timeline

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RevelationsTimeline.html

If you have specific questions along the timeline or Rev 17 and 18 just ask.. giving your opinion first

Thanks

David

[e4e]

That is about the dumbest timeline I have ever seen. :idea: You need to do some more :read:ing.:bonk:

[David]

Yes I agree e4e, your response is about the dumbest I have seen in a long time, especially when you said nothing specific nor were able to give a timeline of your own.


Thanks, so hoping to hear better comments from you in the future. Do remember this is a Christian Board. And even if you aren't a Christian you should show a degree of respect, and bring something to the table.

IN HIS SERVICE

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/AllOpinionsarenotequal.html

[e4e]

David
Yes I agree e4e, your response is about the dumbest I have seen in a long time, especially when you said nothing specific nor were able to give a timeline of your own.


Thanks, so hoping to hear better comments from you in the future. Do remember this is a Christian Board. And even if you aren't a Christian you should show a degree of respect, and bring something to the table.

e4e---- You said that you didn't wont to discuss someone elses time line, Just your own. Yours doesnot exist in scriture. So what is there to disccuss?:bonk:

[David]

Maybe there are no prophecy students here, e4e and therefore the only thing that can be discussed is the insanity of preterist doctrine that negates all prophecy. But I was hoping this thread could be about the present and the FUTURE from scriptures.

But discussing past tense preterism is almost impossible, because preterists have seen the scriptures, read them and even studied them and still can;t see the obvious and the blatant, and have obviously never prayed about such a negating devoid doctrine that discourages them from finding out more truths in the present and in the future.

But yes, e4e discuss the present and the future and bring on your timeline, as that is what this thread is about, Not the past, but the present and FUTURE. if you have comments make them.

And I even challenged you to make up a past tense timeline on the Revelations Thread. So if you have a present future tense timeline post about it here. if it is past tense then post it on the revelation thread.

Hoping you have a timeline for discussion, it would be truly interesting in either case.

Sincerely

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RaptureAfterTribulation.html

[e4e]

David
Maybe there are no prophecy students here, e4e and therefore the only thing that can be discussed is the insanity of preterist doctrine that negates all prophecy. But I was hoping this thread could be about the present and the FUTURE from scriptures.

e4e---I am no preterist but nether am I a tribulationalest ot millenialest; pre post or mid. I do not jump through hopes to make my view fit someone's idea of prophecy. That is a different statement than what you made before. I will discuss prophecy with you but I will not be held to your point of view or timeline.


Hoping you have a timeline for discussion, it would be truly interesting in either case.

e4e Will I do not have one so your hope is in vain


But yes, e4e discuss the present and the future and bring on your timeline, as that is what this thread is about, Not the past, but the present and FUTURE. if you have comments make them.

e4e---You cannot discuss the present and the future without discussing the past. It is you understanding of what has gone before thar lays the foundation of what you believe is the present and the future. At least the preterist have the nerve to lay a foundation for there point of view and have it chalenged. That is more than I have seen from you.:brow:

[David]

e4e, Fine then start discussing and giving input, for that was the intent of this thread, a thread continues on and progresses.

For Yes, there are fulfilled prophecies and definitely the messianic prophecies have all been fulfilled by jesus

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/MessianicPropheciesfulfilledbyJesus.html

And the six kingdoms of Daniel and revelation have come and gone and we are awaiting the seventh. And so we discuss a bit about the past, although it will only help us a little bit in the present and future. Neveretheless sorting out what has already been fulfilled helps, but the preterists go to the extreme and suggest all is fulfilled except the rapture which is truly lamentable.

And then they are besides themselves in understanding the present and make the wildest concoctions out of mid-air, when the here and now and the future is what the Word of the Lord was meant to help us with. And the Lord via Joel 2:28-29 gives us more and more until the very End, not less and less like the Pretersist believe.

So do say something significant about the past if you like e4e, that helps us understand the present and the future.

But just being past tense without referencing the present and future is devoid in my opinion.

But I must admit that this Board as seen from the Poll had only one prophecy student on it, that I saw, for only one thought prophecy was future tense. Amazing..amazing

So do continue e4e or others if you can relate the past to the present and even if you have no timelines or coherent order of events for the present into the future.

David

[e4e]

David
And the six kingdoms of Daniel and revelation have come and gone and we are awaiting the seventh.

e4e------ agreeded.

David
So do say something significant about the past if you like e4e, that helps us understand the present and the future.

e4e---Do you believe that the timeline of Daniel 9 has been fulfilled in its entirety? If not , why not?

David
But I must admit that this Board as seen from the Poll had only one prophecy student on it, that I saw, for only one thought prophecy was future tense. Amazing..amazing

e4e-----What is wrong with verifying fulfilled prophecy through history? This is a great sourse of encurragement to me. Though it is past we look at when the prophecy was given see the faithfuness of God to His word. Past prophecy is a great encurrager of God's children. Rev. is a record of past, present and future prophecy. It tells what was, what is and what is to come. All having its own value in God's plan. Do not be so focussed on one at the expense of the other.

As far as I can tell THe Seventh Empire has yet to be Idetified. I can speculate as well as the next guy as to who that is. The 10 kings who hate the whore and are in league with the beast have not been identified but I have a therry on who they are. The whore is presently with us and has been all through history and she will be destroyed by the 10 kings after she has revealed herself publicly. This is all future to the writer of the Rev. but may be present today.

[e4e]

TRIBULATION


TRIBULATION- what is a tribulation? 5ME tribulation < OFr < LL(Ec) tribulation < tribulare, to afflict, oppress < L, to press < tribulum, threshing platform with sharp studs, akin to terere, to rub: for IE base see THROW6
1 great misery or distress, as from oppression; deep sorrow
2 something that causes suffering or distress; affliction; trial
Webster’s New World Dictionary

Solomon’s Temple was built on a threshing floor that King David had bought at the instruction of the Angel of God. It is the site where King David built an alter and sacrificed for His sin of numbering the people. This threshing platform on which the Temple was built can also be called a tribulation platform. It was from this platform that God judged Israel.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand ------------ 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. I would think that the mention of a specific prophecy would get special attention. The great tribulation is time specific and has a specific people and geographical location. This prophecy is to Israel and to the holy city and not to the world in general.

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

What vision was the Angel (the man) Gabriel talking about. Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. -----15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. -------19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. -----26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision for it shall be for many days. (After Gabriel had explained the vision) -----------27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Daniel had received this vision in the third year of Bel-shaz-zar and now it was the first year of Darius the Mead and the 70-year of captivity was completed and Daniel wonted to know what would happen now. The 70 years that Jeremiah talked about seemed to be completed and he was still a captive. It is not that Daniel doubted God but there must be more to it . His understanding was incomplete.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. The vision had a limited duration. 70 years
2. The vision concerned Israel’s future and has nothing to do with the church or any extension of time longer than that specified. All acts, delays are taken into account and all will be completed within the specified time frame, 70 YEARS
3. At the end of this 70-year prophesy 7 goals will have been accomplished.
A. To finish the transgression
B. To make an end of sins
C. To make reconciliation for iniquity
D. To bring in everlasting righteousness
E. To seal up the vision.
F. To seal up the prophecy
G. To anoint the most Holy

What was the transgression that had to be finished? The disobedience of Israel toward God. Remember these 70 weeks was directed to Israel and Jerusalem not the nations that God used to accomplish His purpose. Israel’s ultimate rejection of God is the transgression of God’s provision for them. They just flat out did not believe God. They had no faith in God to accomplish His word in them.

Sins, plural, is not a correct translation. The word is Singular and refers to sin. Not a particular sin but a condition called sin. Not a specific act but the body of sins, collectively. The reference is to the condition of Israel’s existence.

What does it mean to make reconciliation? Perhaps a good example is the case of a traffic ticket. When someone runs a stop sign the police gives the violator a traffic ticket that has a fine of a set amount. When that ticket is paid then reconciliation has been made. To reconcile anything a consideration must be given to the one who has been wronged. For iniquity, God has demanded payment and the Angel Gabriel said that at the conclusion of this 70 week period of time the price to be paid for iniquity will have been paid. Iniquity is sin and the required price for its reconciliation is death.

Everlasting righteousness will have arrived and established at that time. At what time? At the end of the 70 weeks. It is not something achieved but something delivered.

To seal up the vision. What vision? The one Daniel had problems understanding.

To seal up the prophecy what prophesy? The one in chapter 8 that Daniel did not understand.

To anoint the most Holy. I believe this has specific reference to Jesus the Messiah. To anoint something is to apply something to something. Something Holy is something sanctified or set apart. This praise signifies the setting apart the anointed by God to special service. Jesus was set aside to redeem or pay the price for sin.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The restoring and the rebuilding of Jerusalem is the command we are looking for, not the temple. The scripture says that it would be 69 weeks from the giving of this command to the Messiah. Historically that has taken place. The 69 weeks is time sensitive. The Messiah was to be in Jerusalem at the conclusion of the 69 weeks and then be cut off.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Notice the colon ( : ). It is used to address a related subject to the sentence that it follows. “After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:” The subject is the Messiah, not the prince or the people of the prince. The cutting off of the Messiah is the reason that the people of the prince shall come. The people of the prince do not cut off the Messiah. The Messiah came to His on and His own received Him not. (John1:11 ). The people of the prince are the results of the cutting off not the cause of it.

The he in verse 27 refers to the messiah not the people of the prince. The coming Messiah is the subject matter of the prophecy. It is the Messiah who establishes the new covenant with the people and is cut of in the midst of the one week. It is Jesus Christ that causes the sacrifice and oblations to cease. The abomination that caused the desolation was the crucifixion of Christ Because of the repeated rejections of the Messiah by Israel, the abominations, Jesus made Jerusalem empty and the temple an empty and lifeless place. The physical always follows the spiritual. The people of the prince just executed in the physical realm what had already taken place in the spiritual realm. Jesus was not the abomination, the rejection of the Messiah was.

It was the killing of Jesus on the cross that caused the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The continued rejection of the risen Messiah; The evidence, the preaching and the witnessing of the gospel were all rejected and with the magnitude of the rejections increasing in depth and violence caused the inevitable to happened.

In terms of physical destruction all that had happened before in Israel’s history was done to discipline and to draw Israel back to her God, but this time she would not be able to come back. God destroyed the physical form of worship and all those related objects that went with it. To this day only pagan temples have been built where the Jewish temple now stands. The temple at Jerusalem will never be rebuilt again. The effect of this desolation is permanent and will never happen again. The only reprieve Israel has is to accept the Messiah and High Priest that God has appointed for her.

Though the temple had been desecrated and destroyed before it had always been rebuilt and the law and the sacrifices and oblations had always been restored in times past, they will never be restored again. Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the law and Jesus is the final sacrifice for Israel and the whole world. As the Babylonians were the tool in God’s hands to send Israel into the 70 year captivity to punish Israel so also were the Romans to destroy the vestiges of a now lifeless religion.

Three and one half years after Jesus was crucified, Jesus called The Apostle Paul and made us fellow hairs with Israel by grace through faith in the shad blood of Christ Jesus. The seventh year was complete. Mission accomplished and no future seven year period of anything. Jesus did not leave His work undone.

[Hitch]

In terms of physical destruction all that had happened before in Israel’s history was done to discipline and to draw Israel back to her God, but this time she would not be able to come back. God destroyed the physical form of worship and all those related objects that went with it. To this day only pagan temples have been built where the Jewish temple now stands. The temple at Jerusalem will never be rebuilt again. The effect of this desolation is permanent and will never happen again. The only reprieve Israel has is to accept the Messiah and High Priest that God has appointed for her.

Though the temple had been desecrated and destroyed before it had always been rebuilt and the law and the sacrifices and oblations had always been restored in times past, they will never be restored again. Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the law and Jesus is the final sacrifice for Israel and the whole world. As the Babylonians were the tool in God’s hands to send Israel into the 70 year captivity to punish Israel so also were the Romans to destroy the vestiges of a now lifeless religion.

Three and one half years after Jesus was crucified, Jesus called The Apostle Paul and made us fellow hairs with Israel by grace through faith in the shad blood of Christ Jesus. The seventh year was complete. Mission accomplished and no future seven year period of anything. Jesus did not leave His work undone.


YUP


H

[Athanasius]

e4e:
1. The vision had a limited duration. 70 years

Did you mean to say 70 weeks of years? The duration of the vision is not 70 years, but 70 weeks (of years). Literally, seventy sevens.

[Athanasius]

David, you wanted a futurist to dialogue with you, you've got one now. What is your basis for considering the great whore to be America?

Although America may share some characteristics in common with the great harlot of Rev 17, I think there is sufficient scriptural evidence that America is not her.


Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Note that Rev 17:18 says "which reigneth [present tense] over the kings of the earth." To me, this seems to be a reference to Rome, which was reigning over the kings of the earth at that time. Rome was founded on seven hills (see http://www.britannica.com/seo/s/seven-hills-of-rome/ ).

[e4e]

Athanasius
Did you mean to say 70 weeks of years? The duration of the vision is not 70 years, but 70 weeks (of years). Literally, seventy sevens.

e4e---------------->:bonk: :argh: :whip: :oops:

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear e4e:

Did you see the other thread here in this section on the seventy weeks?

[Athanasius]

Hi David, I had a look at your Daniel timeline, and I appreciate all of the hard work that you put into into it. I haven't had time yet to look over the verses in Daniel and compare them to your timeline, but one thing definitely jumps out at me. Why do you believe that the Anti-Christ will come from Russia? I've never heard that idea before. I think that he will probably come from Italy. Here's why:


Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After the messiah is cut off, the "people of the prince that shall come" will destroy the city and the sanctuary. I'm not a preterist, but I do think that they have got it right in some areas, and this is one of them. After Jesus was "cut off" (crucified), the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, in direct fulfillment of this prophecy, Matt 23:37-39, Luke 21:20-24, and other scriptures.

So, the Romans are the people of the prince that shall come. This means that if this prince is the Antichrist, he must come from the Roman people. Russia seems to have a place in end-time events according to prophesy, but I don't believe that THE Antichrist will come from there (although they have produced some very wicked antichrists with a little "a," such as Stalin, who starved to death millions of peasants in the Ukraine alone (The figures vary from 3.5 to over 10 million, depending on the source. It is estimated that as many as 30 million were starved to death when the Communist party took power in China and utilized similar collectivization tactics. By the way, a note for preterists who read this: These were tribulations many times larger than the seige of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, so how could 70 AD be the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21, which states, " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.")

[David]

e4e,

Bring something to the table, say something positive, or as the Lord says, Produce your cause. But on this thread say something about current events and the future rather than dragging us back into the pits of the past.

Say something that inspires searching for truths rather than negating it with preterists nonsense.

Ready begin now.....

And then we can relate it to Daniel


SEE also what I did last night as a background even though uncompleted http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/7KingdomsofMan.html

All the best in Jesus prophetic Future Words

David

[e4e]

David
Bring something to the table, say something positive, or as the Lord says, Produce your cause. But on this thread say something about current events and the future rather than dragging us back into the pits of the past.

e4e---What I said is very positive. I have just given you my time line in contrast to that pie in the sky hoax that you are trying to sell. You need:help:

David
Say something that inspires searching for truths rather than negating it with preterists nonsense.

e4e ----What I have said is not nonsense and if the preterist happen to have it right on this essue then at least they have a good foundation. That is more than I can say for your time line. I am not a preterist. I just know how to read with comprehention

David
Ready begin now.....And then we can relate it to Daniel


e4e---The relationship of Daniel 9: 24-27 to our present time is foundational. It has no referance further in history than AD70,and that is the elushion to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans which I have already addressed. :shrug:

[e4e]

Dee Dee Warren
Did you see the other thread here in this section on the seventy weeks?

e4e---No, I don't recall it but I will take a look see. :bow: :bow:your grace.

[David]

Ath,

Please excuse if I missed seeing your posting earlier, mu apologies...... as surely your point is discussable. But unfortunately for time sake and clarity sake I have to repost it and use << >> to put my reaction in...

******************************


Hi David, I had a look at your Daniel timeline, and I appreciate all of the hard work that you put into into it. <<Thanks but it actually isn;t all mine as we all build on what other teachers have taight and hopefully they were taught by the Lord>> I haven't had time yet to look over the verses in Daniel and compare them to your timeline, but one thing definitely jumps out at me. Why do you believe that the Anti-Christ will come from Russia? I've never heard that idea before. (He's the King of the North as stated in Daniel 11, and it fitsd church hstory and Russia history and the rise 0f the Anti-Christ and the annihialation of America the Whore, and the establishment of the NWO as told by the dark side prophecies as well SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RussiaPropheciesabouttheAnti-Christ.html and daniel 11 posting >>> I think that he will probably come from Italy. Here's why: <<<Probably thinking he is a future Pope if I can quess before reading>>>


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



After the messiah is cut off, the "people of the prince that shall come" will destroy the city and the sanctuary. I'm not a preterist, but I do think that they have got it right in some areas, and this is one of them. After Jesus was "cut off" (crucified), the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, in direct fulfillment of this prophecy, Matt 23:37-39, Luke 21:20-24, and other scriptures.
<<<Good >>

So, the Romans are the people of the prince that shall come.<<<(No worldly people are the people of the prince, not just Romans >>> This means that if this prince is the Antichrist, he must come from the Roman people. (<<<Disagree but continue >> Russia seems to have a place in end-time events according to prophesy, but I don't believe that THE Antichrist will come from there (although they have produced some very wicked antichrists with a little "a," such as Stalin, who starved to death millions of peasants in the Ukraine alone (The figures vary from 3.5 to over 10 million, depending on the source. It is estimated that as many as 30 million were starved to death when the Communist party took power in China and utilized similar collectivization tactics. <<<You got that right, they have had as horrible a history as the capitalists. Thank the Lord the Lord isn;t nationalistic and will be gathering His people from all nationalisties>>>

By the way, a note for preterists who read this: These were tribulations many times larger than the seige of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, so how could 70 AD be the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21, which states, " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.") <<<Exactly Ath .. it didn;t last three and a half years, no trumpets sounded, no prophets of the Lord emerged, and Jesus didnt come back in 73 AD. Dumb doctrine in my opinion >>>

THanks Ath...forgot the last edning to yuor name, but will get it right eventually which is also all the Lord asks of his people, get it right by the End. Mistakes now are not momumental just keep plugging and studying and witnessing his truth, even if you only know the Love of Jesus...good enough but there is more.

Love in Jesus

david

[Athanasius]

Hi David, thanks for your reply. I appreciate the spirit of your reply to me and it helps me to understand your perspective more. Please consider being more respectful of the orthodox partial preterists here, though, many of whom strike me as sincere people who are trying to interpret scripture with integrity. They have made some points in some of these threads that I think any millenialist will find challenging, even if he is able to come up with a reasonable answer.

Did you also see my post above about why I don't think that America is the great harlot of Rev 17? I'm an American, so I certainly hope that you are wrong on that point! No doubt though, that God will bring America and all nations into judgement for their sins.

[efta777]

David,
I'm having a hard time deciphering your quoting system. FYI: The one that is available on this site is very easy to learn and implement.


Russia seems to have a place in end-time events according to prophesy, but I don't believe that THE Antichrist will come from there (although they have produced some very wicked antichrists with a little "a," such as Stalin, who starved to death millions of peasants in the Ukraine alone

I both agree and disagree: The usage of Anti-Christ in the Bible is ONLY used when referring to the "Little 'a'" anti-christ. It refers to anyone who is against Christ (hence the morphology of the word). Therefore, you are correct in placing Stalin in that camp. But the further question would be; what evidence is there to suggest a 'special' anti-Christ who would be THE Anti-Christ. Biblical references and explanations would be helpful.


By the way, a note for preterists who read this: These were tribulations many times larger than the seige of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, so how could 70 AD be the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21, which states, " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.") <<<Exactly Ath .. it didn;t last three and a half years, no trumpets sounded, no prophets of the Lord emerged, and Jesus didnt come back in 73 AD. Dumb doctrine in my opinion >>>

No tribulation has been greater from a covenental status. It represented God's divorcing Israel and taking the Church as His new Bride. One of the greatest events in history.
It DID last 3 1/2 years. Their were trumpets, there were 'prophets' (I assume you mean the witnesses in Rev), and Jesus came down on a cloud of judgement in A.D. 70 (A.D. 73 is insignificant). You don't see how any of this could happen because you're looking at the prophecy through an already well-developed lense of interpretation, and therefore none of this will make sense to you until you at least try to understand what we are saying. This is why I'm not going into too much detail on all this, I feel like I'd be wasting my time.

[David]

e4e, Please go over all the scriptures from the daniel Timeline, and if you have any question at all, even on any specific, I can answer you with scriptures.

Not a problem.

I have been a missionary for 30 years, and have many of them memorized anyway....

And the words of the Lord work and have never failed, to this I can atest not from reading but from doing.

So just ask and you shall get an answer, as that's what the Lord directs us to do...give an answer to him that asketh ...

Right ? Right !

What's your question, but you have to seek to find and be honest to discover the Lord's truths. So at least ask with an honest heart.

Thanks hoping to hear from you

Blessings

david

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/WehavetoChoose.html

[bar Jonah]

02-12-2003 @ 06:14 PM
Hitch:

9,10,,,,,,,19,20,,,,,,,,,29,30,,,,,,,39,40,,,,,,,,,49,50,,,,,,59,60,,,,,,69

There is only one correct number to complete the sequence.

H
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

What's your point?

[David]

bro....


I both agree and disagree: The usage of Anti-Christ in the Bible is ONLY used when referring to the &quot;Little 'a'&quot; anti-christ. It refers to anyone who is against Christ (hence the morphology of the word). Therefore, you are correct in placing Stalin in that camp. But the further question would be; what evidence is there to suggest a 'special' anti-Christ who would be THE Anti-Christ. Biblical references and explanations would be helpful.

****************The Anti-Christ goes by many names and so a discussion on the so called antichrist is of no value. The son of perdition, the Evil One, the Little Horn, etc. etc. etc. etc. are all about one man the leader of the NWO, the head of the Illuminati that gets possessed by the devil himself. Straight forward and simple...http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Anti-ChristsProphecies.html *************



No tribulation has been greater from a covenental status. It represented God's divorcing Israel and taking the Church as His new Bride. One of the greatest events in history.
It DID last 3 1/2 years. Their were trumpets, there were 'prophets' (I assume you mean the witnesses in Rev), and Jesus came down on a cloud of judgement in A.D. 70 (A.D. 73 is insignificant). You don't see how any of this could happen because you're looking at the prophecy through an already well-developed lense of interpretation, and therefore none of this will make sense to you until you at least try to understand what we are saying. This is why I'm not going into too much detail on all this, I feel like I'd be wasting my time. [/QUOTE]

***

Jesus has not returned, jesus did not come in the clouds, there was No marriage supper, you all haven;t missed it , its for teh future and Jesus is not in control of the world but allowing His prophetic words, and the evil people's power be shown so people are forced to choose, and then he destroys them.

Straight forweard and simple...

Minor little this and thats in the past are nothing compared to the trib. read it again it is not a little persecution but a worldwide time of the greatest atrocities ever committed...

Thanks hope you start preparing at least spiritually

The Lord bless and keep you

IHS

David

[e4e]

It is a well known fact that in the Hebrew as well as in the Greek, there is no punctuation or capitalization. The original manuscript lacked any punctuation and what ever translation is used the punctuation is supplied by the translator and is not arbitrary. The translation used can be used as a guide and for the most part can be relied upon. Many times however the translator colors the interpretation by his on set of beliefs no matter how intellectually honest he is. There are times that the translation is limited by an edict of a religious organization such as The Church of England and King James. In this case church doctrine colored the translator’s work.

It is incumbent upon the bible student to search the scriptures and to commit his learning before the Lord that he may be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit. That is why we quarrel so much. Each of us has our biases . We are all victims in a sense. We each come bringing our own load of baggage. Our own possessions in our uncompromising dogmatic fashion and our need to be right. We are not seeking the truth but seeking to prove our point and the error of the brother. It is not a bad thing to challenge one another to strengthen one another in the faith. In times past I have had to let go of some pretty bad beliefs. Things I was taught by people I respected. I suppose we all have had those kinds of experiences.

The following is my translation of Daniel 9: 24 - 27. The punctuation is mine along with the capitalization. The words in parentheses are mine and have been added for clarities sake. I have tried to write it in the language that I speak for better understanding.

Seventy weeks are decreed to your people and to your holy city to finish the transgression, to make the end of sins, atone for iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up the vision prophecy and to anoint The Most Holy.

Know and understand from the issuing of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the Prince (shall be) seven weeks and sixty two weeks; even in the affliction of the times.

After sixty-two weeks Messiah (shall be) cut off. (It) is not to Him, the city or the sanctuary to destroy the people of a coming prince. Its (vision prophecy ) end (shall come) with the flood and until (the) end (of the) war desolations are determined.

He (Messiah) will confirm the covenant with many for one week. In the half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering to cease.

Upon a wing, as abominations, a desolator (will be placed) even until the end. That which has been decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

Here is something for speculation. Who is the desolator placed upon the wing as abominations?

[bar Jonah]

e4e, I concur. The desolator is the Antichrist, and the Tribulation is a future event, as it was cancelled or put on hold almost 2,000 years ago.

[e4e]

RightIdea
e4e, I concur. The desolator is the Antichrist, and the Tribulation is a future event, as it was cancelled or put on hold almost 2,000 years ago.

e4e-----Try current events. The abomination has been standing on the temple mound in one form or another for 1900 years. This is a real time prophecy being fulfilled before your very eyes. Yet you wont to assign it to some mithecal 7 year tribulational event. Wake up!:juggle:

[bar Jonah]

Mythical? Daniel's 70th week is far from mythical. Shabua is a 7-year period. This is true for the first 69 weeks.... You think it just turns into 2,000 years or whatever number you feel like for the 70th week?

[e4e]

RightIdea
Mythical? Daniel's 70th week is far from mythical. Shabua is a 7-year period. This is true for the first 69 weeks.... You think it just turns into 2,000 years or whatever number you feel like for the 70th week?

The 70th. week is over. past never to come again. There is no brake in the Daniel time line. This is not part of the 70th. week but what happens untell Christ returns and return He will.

[bar Jonah]

Ah, another preterist. Interesting. I hope you're following DeeDee's and my discussion on the Daniel timeline and preterism in Eschatology 101, called "Daniel's 70 Weeks." I suggest it because another non-preterist and I are currently refuting the entire preterist view of the Daniel timeline with a simple understanding of the idiomatic use of Hebrew grammar, thus proving that the Messiah was cut off in the 69th week, and definitely not the 70th week, not to mention that if the 69th week had been completed, the temple would have necessarily been destroyed before the 70th week began, which means the 70th week not only concluded but didn't even start. (Of course, I wholeheartedly agree that it was going to start right after that, in the 1st century... it just never got the chance since God changed His mind when He cut Israel off in reaction to her failing her election.)

[David]

e4e,

You have no timeline and so far only Joel has been honest enough to say that he believbes the Millinium started in 30 Ad meaning it ended in 1030 AD....

If you have some positive input of anything you believe according to time frames post in rather than just saying you don;t agree with mine.

Bring something to the table rather than just being negative. Did I not mention this to you before ...

David

[David]

Right Idea, why do you have a devil as your pic...

Isn't that giving people the wrong idea....

And don;t worry, I am into progress and discernment and won;t be here much longer because I don;t like being called a moronic idiot gazing at my navel as one of the pretersists have called me. I can't blame the rest of you for this, and do hope you chastise him for such name calling.

But Right idea, I am truly tired of persecution and the attacks of people that lose debates on-line with their real attacks to my own Board and lies and trickery against me so as to accuse.

We are suppose to be Christian brethren here discussing the future...me trying to get you to read further and be prepared for the future. That is my honest mtoivation, whatever you say, and I was invited here by DEE DEE personnally and so I came.

But attacks on the homefront mean I have to be leary of what BB I go to, I don;t think you all would have done such a vile deed that has happenned lately, as surely it came from an evolutionists as I am very scientific as I like exactness and I am into the exact words of the Lord via Creation and every which way.

So accuse me as you will, but that was my intent here and if there are no futurist here or studiers of prophecy I shall be on my way.

Yes I think preterism is dumb just as you think prophecy of the future is dumb. So we disagree but I am a Christian and a missionary and have been for 30 years, so rather than attacking me, may I ask you for prayer against my enemies. Thanks.

David

[bar Jonah]

David, you are far from being the only futurist here, and you certainly aren't the only student of prophecy. I am a futurist, after all. The Tribulation is certainly a future event.

Don't let one person's childish behavior get to you. Don't take this the wrong way, but you shouldn't be so thin-skinned. It is inappropriate for people to call others names here. Especially when we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, for goodness' sake. And I commented as much in response to that person's behavior. So let's move on, let bygones be bygones. I hope you will stick around and represent what you believe. Though we are both futurists, I have no doubt we have differences. And I would love to explore those differences, because if we disagree on something, then one of us is wrong... and I don't like being wrong. I see debates and arguments as an opportunity for someone to stop being wrong. :)

[e4e]

There is no milllinium. No thousand year anything. So when am I supposed to say this non-existant thousand years starts. If it does not exist then it never starts NO TIMELINE EXIST

[Theolog]

02-12-2003 @ 07:30 AM
David:
Sorry all, time is of the essense and no time for me personnally to chat with people that don;t know the very basic principle of the Lord.
David


Hello david
I know your time might be short here, you know rapture and all, but I have looked through my Library and can't seem to find "the very basic principle of the Lord". . could you explain it to me please?
Just a sentence or two will do.

That chart must have taken quite some time huh??

[bar Jonah]

e4e, I'm really trying to follow you, honest. But you're making it very difficult when you say things like your last post. There IS unarguably a period of a Thousand Years in regards to eschatology, so when you say there is no period of a thousand years at all, you only end up reducing your credibility. Either you are pretending to be unaware of it, or you are honestly unaware of this basic principle of eschatological scriptures.

Revelation 20:1-7
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (2)He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; (3)and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5)But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (6)Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

(7)Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison (8)and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

There is no thousand years? C'mon, e4e...

[e4e]

In Rev 20, is the word translated thousand singular or plural in the Greek? Check it out.

[Robyn Banks]

02-13-2003 @ 03:30 AM
David:
So let's check out, Daniel's words which were confirmed by Jesus for he gives an exact and precise and concise and mathematical Timeline that is orderly and scripturial.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

and in words

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Daniel9.html

So the question is do you agree or disagree with these numnbers and these references. And what timeline do you have in comparison ?
That's a fanciful interpretation you've got there.

Here is the timeline I have in comparison:
http://www.tektonics.com/prophecy/daniel_chronology.html

Hope that helps.

Robyn

[David]

Right Idea, you have the right idea, because when the Lord says 1000 years, He means a thousand years. When He said there was an Adam and Eve, there was an Adam and Eve and all the lineages in between.

So Yes, there will be a Millinium and thinking it started in 70 AD doesn't make mathematical sense.

Robyn and Thanks for your timeline, I was sure some Preterist must have made up a timeline of somekind....

The beginning Kingdoms up to Rome are easy to understand and we basically only disagree afterwards.....

But if you notice your timeline doesn't give a starting and ending date for the three and a half years of tribulation before the Jews took over the world. Mind you that's strange as they aren;t Christians and haven't accepted the messiah . And they aren't ruling with jesus from jerusalem right now. And Jesus hasn;t come in the clouds, and there has been no Armeggeddon Battle etc. etc.

And NO DATE was goven when this Millinium started...was it a secret .....

[e4e]

Jerry, for your information there is no one thousand in Rev 20. In every case the word is plural and can be understood as an indetermanant number of thousands. There is no case in the 20 chapter of Rev. where the singular form of the greek word for thousands ever occures. That being the case don't you think it is a litte strange that the word should mean singular thousand. The last time I look the plural form of a word ment two or more not one. So where is your one thousand years? Not in that passage.:huh:

[Faramir]

02-27-2003 @ 04:24 PM
David:

Right Idea, you have the right idea, because when the Lord says 1000 years, He means a thousand years. When He said there was an Adam and Eve, there was an Adam and Eve and all the lineages in between.



There have been explanations given as to why the 1000 years is figuative. You need to give reasons why it should be taken litterally. Just saying "when the Lord says 1000 years He means 1000 years" doesn't refute any of the reasons given why 1000 years is not literal. If you insist that everything that Jesus said should be taken litteraly then explain this:

When the Lord says, behold I am coming quickly (Rev. 3:11 & 22:12) He means what? And when the Lord says, this generation shall not pass He means what?

Thank you.

[Ted]

As a newcomer to this thread, I read all four segments prior to commenting. Also, I read the two web pages referred to in the initial segment. After all this, I only saw a couple serious replies to the initial query/challenge. This seems to be a bit disappointing. I will try to remedy this deficiency.

The timeline in question is essentially based on the standard Dispensationalist theory that the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy in Dan 9:24-27 is to be fulfilled in the future. Without considering any of the peripheral issues, this schema is initially based on the following assumptions:

1. The prophecy of Dan 9 stands in isolation with regard to any other prophecy of the book.
2. The various segments (7 weeks, 62 weeks, 1 week: 9:25) of the prophecy are separable.
3. The decree is found in Nehemiah 2 (444 BC).

Every one of these assumptions is INCORRECT.

1. One prior poster did partially address this issue. Put simply, in Dan 8, he has a vision that has two parts. The first (3 beasts) is essentially a repetition of chapter 7. In the Hebrew, this part is called a hazon. In verses 13-14 is a segment with two angels talking. This audition is called a mar'eh in Hebrew. This semantic key is very important.

The segment of the vision that made Daniel sick was the mar'eh. In chapter 9 Gabriel comes to Daniel. In verse 23, Gabriel explicitly says that Daniel is to "understand the mar'eh." In other words, the 70 weeks vision is an explanation of the 2,300 days of 8:14. This is key, and it is EXPLICIT IN THE HEBREW.

The next step was not clearly addressed. In 9:24, Gabriel says that "70 weeks is cut." He does NOT say "decreed." That word is charus (or its variants), and is used in verses 25, 26, and 27. The word in 24 is nechttak. This word literally means "to amputate." In other words, the 70 weeks is "amputated" from the 2,300 days. This leads us to #2.

2. The 70 weeks are "amputated" from the 2,300 days. Whatever THAT period is, the 70 weeks are a single block of it. There is no way to separate the 70th week from the other 69. (The 2,300 days is beyond this thread.)

Further, the 70 weeks are presented as a time of probation for the Jews. (See Daniel's prayer for amplification of this.) A time of probation must be of definite duration, otherwise the probation is meaningless. (There are other Hebrew issues that amplify this.)

The 70 weeks is therefore a single 490 year block of time. Whenever it starts, it will run out in 490 years. There is no segment in the far future.

3. Nehemiah 2 is chosen by Dispensationalists because it is the only place "building" is mentioned. But it has fatal omissions. First, it does not contain a decree. Nehemiah asks to go to Jerusalem to make repairs. Artaxerxes asks what he needs, and Nehemiah receives letters of safe passage and provision. There is no decree of any sort.

Of more importance is the fact that in no way does Neh 2 "restore" Jerusalem. The word for restore (sub) is used over 1,000 times in the OT. In EVERY case, it acts on people. Our modern idea of architectural restoration involving rebuilding is completely foreign to scripture. Restoration requires return of the people and return of self-government. And let us not forget that the first verb acting on "Jerusalem" is "restore."

Since sub acts only on people, Jerusalem is people. But you cannot "build" (banah) people. But this verb can be translated "build up." This means to make more permanent and prominent. If we translate the phrase "to restore and to build up Jerusalem" we have verb and object agreement. We also have specifications that exactly match in detail a true decree in scripture.

If we look in Ezra 7, we find a decree issued by Artaxerxes in 458 BC, but was not able to be enforced until August/September of 457 BC. This latter date is the proper date to begin the 70 weeks.


In short, the 70 weeks begin in 457 BC, extend to Jesus' baptism in AD27 (69 weeks), and end at the covenant lawsuit of Stephen in Acts 7 that terminates the 70 weeks probation for the Jews.

I'm quite sure that many of these issues will require further discussion.

Ted

[Faramir]

Great post Ted. :thumb: Very interesting time line for Daniel. I am still trying to sort out Daniel from a preterist perspective myself.

One question. Where do you place the middle of week 70 (3 1/2 weeks)? At the Crucifiction?

Oh, and sorry for the thread going off topic. That is typical of most threads here at tweb.

Unless specifically requested by the thread starter, threads are allowed to progress (or regress which is more common :no:) in whatever directions they may go. Of course, you always have the option of bringing the thread back on topic. :thumb:

[efta777]

One question. Where do you place the middle of week 70 (3 1/2 weeks)? At the Crucifiction?

I don't want to speak for Ted, but that seems to be exactly what he's doing.

That was a really good post, and if David is still around it will be interesting to see how he responds to this.

[bar Jonah]

03-04-2003 @ 08:55 AM
Ted:
Further, the 70 weeks are presented as a time of probation for the Jews. (See Daniel's prayer for amplification of this.) A time of probation must be of definite duration, otherwise the probation is meaningless. (There are other Hebrew issues that amplify this.)

Ted
On a side note, in relation to this, it's interesting to point out that Jesus told Peter that one should forgive someone 70 x 7 times. Now, being part of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy (not to mention He was God), Jesus darn well knew the tremendous and timely significance of the Prophecy of Weeks at that time. Coincidence?

[e4e]

Way to go Ted. Great Post!:yipee:

[David]

Preterists have no idea when the middle of the week was because no world peace agreement ever happenned signed by ten countries that form a new world order. And 220 days later, the 3rd temple was never constructed. The 70th week starts with the Covenant.

It's Future tense and will happen after the next American war for oil, It will make all come to the peace table from such insane violence and a Covenant will be signed by 10, probably Big 8 and the Israelis and Arabs.

So back to the topic...the exact days and scenario of Daniel that are future tense as it obviously never happenned in the past...and Jesus never came back, and the trumpets never sounded and Armaggeddon never happenned etc. etc., etc.
SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

But if you can;t see it, you were never meant to as you probably aren;t able to read history books or newspapers but just see everything as Jesus and Christians ruling on this peaceful Earth during the preterist Millinium

Got to go...

And if possible do get back to the amzing accuracies of the days of Daniel that match exactly whether in revelation or Daniel...and along which timeline all the Last Days will occur.

Thanks

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Prophecymysteries.html

[efta777]

Ok David...
There's a few things I need evidence for before I can ever take you seriously again:
Give me any Biblical reference to oil, or an American war for oil. Seeing America is vague enough, but oil?
Then, give me Biblical references to back up the fact that in the middle of the 70th week a peace agreement will be signed between ten nations. All I see in my Bible is that he will make a covenant with many, which Jesus did, almost exactly quoting Daniel in Matt 26:28.

Please attempt to convince me that these things are Biblical.

[The Curtmudgeon]

I'm not taking exception with most of your post, efta, as even though you and I are on opposite sides in the Preterist/Futurist debate I have much the same problems with David's timeline and arguments that you point out (i.e., trying to read way too much into the verses). But:


03-08-2003 @ 05:24 PM
efta777:
All I see in my Bible is that he will make a covenant with many, which Jesus did, almost exactly quoting Daniel in Matt 26:28.



For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


The only thing there that can be considered as "quoting" Daniel is the single word "testament"/"covenant", and if use of a single word constitutes "almost exactly quoting" someone then every time someone says "king" they must be "almost exactly quoting" Tolkien because he wrote The Return of the King. Daniel doesn't say a single thing about shedding of blood; if by "remission of sins" you think that Jesus is referring to Daniel's "make an end of sins" I disagree as ending them doesn't remit them. Also, Daniel's 'covenant' is for one seven only; do you believe that Jesus' new 'testament' only lasted for seven years?

The (thank God that it lasts forever) Curtmudgeon

[e4e]

The Curtmudgeon
Daniel doesn't say a single thing about shedding of blood; if by "remission of sins" you think that Jesus is referring to Daniel's "make an end of sins" I disagree as ending them doesn't remit them.

e4e---Are you saying that the blood Of Jesus did not make an end of sin. If Jesus did not make an end of sins then the 70 weeks did not accomplish there purpose The seventy weeks are Israel specific and time specific.


Daniel's 'covenant' is for one seven only; do you believe that Jesus' new 'testament' only lasted for seven

e4e--- It was not Daniel's covenant. It was the Messiah who confermed the covenant with Israel for one week and was cut off in the middle of the 70eth week. Jesus made a way and it was not Jesus' fault that national Israel rejected what was definantly provided.:dunce:

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-08-2003 @ 09:08 PM
e4e:

The Curtmudgeon

e4e---Are you saying that the blood Of Jesus did not make an end of sin.

Yes, I'm saying that the blood of Jesus did not make an end of sin. Last I checked, there have been an uncountable number of sins committed since Jesus' crucifixion. I've sinned myself, and I wasn't even alive at the time of His sacrifice. And though I don't want to, I feel quite certain that I'll commit yet more sins before my life is over.

But, His sacrifice has certainly made an atonement for sins, even mine, and has remitted, that is paid the penalty for, all sins, even mine, for those of us who accept Him as personal saviour and accept "the new covenant in His blood" as our atonement.


If Jesus did not make an end of sins then the 70 weeks did not accomplish there purpose

Suppositional argument: you're assuming that Jesus' crucifixion is the termination and sum of the 70 sevens. I contend that that position is not correct, so the fact that Jesus' sacrifice atoned for all sins without ending sin has nothing to do with whether the 70 sevens will have accomplished their purpose when they are completed.


The seventy weeks are Israel specific and time specific.

That much we can agree on! But not the time that they are specific to, obviously.


e4e--- It was not Daniel's covenant.

Sigh. That was simply (and I thought obviously, but apparently not) a shorthand way of saying "The covenant referred to by Daniel" as distinct from "The covenant referred to by Jesus".


It was the Messiah who confermed the covenant with Israel for one week and was cut off in the middle of the 70eth week.

Again, suppositional. I understand that that is part and parcel of the preterist view, but I do not agree with it.


Jesus made a way and it was not Jesus' fault that national Israel rejected what was definantly provided.

Nevertheless, you're avoiding my point: Daniel says that the covenant would be confirmed for one seven; if that covenant is to be identified with Jesus' new covenant in the shedding of His blood, then you have to be arguing that Jesus' covenant was only good for seven years, regardless of whether the Jews rejected it in the middle of the 'week'.

The (and that's one good reason I reject preterism) Curtmudgeon

[efta777]

The only thing there that can be considered as "quoting" Daniel is the single word "testament"/"covenant"

Jesus also says that his covenant is for "Many" which is taken directly from Daniel.
In the Bible, covenants come from God, they never come from the Devil or the anti-christ. Why is it so hard to believe that Christ is the one who makes the covenant with many?


I appreciate your comments, but still await David's answer as to the rest of my question.

[e4e]

The prase, 'an end of sin' does not mean 'the end of sin' An end of sin or sins as one may prefur. relates to the sins of National Israel. Jesus was to provied a covenant of grace instead of a covenant of law. Through Israel's unbelief we as gentiles have been grafted into the covenant of grace that Jesus confermed with Israel for 1 week. Regardless of the fact that Jesus was cut off (crucified) in the medst of that week they were stell the receiptpeants of the gospel for the remainder of that week before thw gosple was sent to the gentiles. I belive that is what is ment. Jesus was to provide a way for sins to be ended. That way I believe you and I have accepted. It is not that sin will be done away with in the world at that time.

The Curtmudgeon
Nevertheless, you're avoiding my point: Daniel says that the covenant would be confirmed for one seven; if that covenant is to be identified with Jesus' new covenant in the shedding of His blood, then you have to be arguing that Jesus' covenant was only good for seven years, regardless of whether the Jews rejected it in the middle of the 'week'.

e4e--Are you telling me that Jesus did not conferm the covenant of grace wiht Israel for 1 week through His own actions and the actions of His chosen apostles? If Jesus has not done so then what you and I believe is not worth anything and we both will die in our sin and be forever lost.

Curtmudgeon
Again, suppositional. I understand that that is part and parcel of the preterist view, but I do not agree with it.

e4e Why do you insist on calling me a preterist? I am not I am a nowmillinalest and a nowtribulationalest. I am not cought up in excapeism like the futurest.:fight:

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-08-2003 @ 10:36 PM
efta777:



Jesus also says that his covenant is for &quot;Many&quot; which is taken directly from Daniel.

I'll give you that I omitted 'many' when listing the words in common between Daniel's verse and Jesus' statement.


In the Bible, covenants come from God, they never come from the Devil or the anti-christ.

Not all Biblical covenants come from God. Genesis 21:27: And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant. Abraham and Abimelech

Genesis 26:28: And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee; Abimelech & friends and Isaac (note: it's Abimelech and friends proposing the covenant, not Isaac)

Genesis 31:44: Now therefore come thou, let us make a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee. Laban and Jacob (note: again, it's not even being proposed by the 'Israel' side, but by Laban in this case)

Exodus 23:32: Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. Israelites and Canaanites (hypothetical)

I grant you that covenants are very often between God and someone (Adam, Noah, Abram, the Israelites, etc.), but these four examples just from the first two books show that it's not always the case. Certainly, none of these examples involve Satan or AntiChrist (although the Exodus example certainly involves covenants with false gods), but they do show that not all covenants mentioned in the Bible involve God.


Why is it so hard to believe that Christ is the one who makes the covenant with many?

Because (a) the cutting off of Messiah in verse 26 and the covenant with many in verse 27 are two separate events; and (b) 'he' that shall confirm the covenant with many is the 'prince that shall come' whose people destroy Jerusalem.


I appreciate your comments, but still await David's answer as to the rest of my question.

My personal suspicion is that you'll continue to wait some time, as I doubt he has a good answer.

The (but that's as may be) Curtmudgeon

[efta777]

Your comments on covenenents are noted, Curtmudgeon, and I admit that I was wrong.

See DeeDee's posts on Hebraic parallelism on the "Daniel's Seventy Weeks" thread to understand why I don't believe that the covenant has to be by the prince who is to come. Also, I still definately see the parallel between the Daniel covenant and Jesus' statement at the last supper. He was talking to people who knew the O.T. and the prophecies therein and I believe they would have easily recognized that this was the covenant he was referring to.

[e4e]

The prience of the people to come is not the subject of anything but the object of a preposition describing the people. The messiah is the subject and the 'he' in verse 27 is the Messiah.:bonk:

[David]

Brethren,

Remember you and you alone are responsibl;e for understanding the Lord's truths and seeking them out honestly and dilegently, for it is your responsibility with or without help from others. As the onus falls on you and no other, which means you better take it seriously and not play word games out of pride. The Bible is way too serious an issue for that to happen, and playing games with scriptures is what the scribes and pharisees did, but not us, especially when it comes to the future and prophecy, because our very lives are at stake.

So study this timeline of the Last 70 Weeks of Daniel
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TimeProphecy.html

And this expansion of Daniel 9 in words
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Daniel9.html

Understand that America will be leading the world almost into WW3 with its greed for oil, but nevertheless the Lord foresaw it and allows it to fulfill his Prophecy so the Covenant can be signed.
Not a heavenly Covenant but a worldly military political one that is signed by ten nations and allows the thrid Temple to be built.

Study the 3rd temple, study prophecy, study current events, understand the perfifity of nationalism and the insane ways of the false church. study and progress

IMO

David

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-08-2003 @ 11:12 PM
e4e:

The prience of the people to come is not the subject of anything but the object of a preposition describing the people. The messiah is the subject and the 'he' in verse 27 is the Messiah.:bonk:

I've seen this argument time and again, and I really need an expert in Hebrew grammar to explain to me if Hebrew truly is so different from English in this case. I don't know Hebrew, but if we were discussing English (and I realise that we are not) then your argument would be nonsensical.

John took the cookies to Jim; he enjoyed them immensely.

The clear meaning of the English sentence is that "he" refers to Jim, which is the object of the verb in the first clause, not the subject. Pronouns refer back to the nearest corresponding noun (by 'corresponding' I mean same number, same gender), regardless of whether that noun was a subject or object when used (unless, of course, where context can be shown to indicate otherwise).

The (hey, Jim, pass the cookies!) Curtmudgeon

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-10-2003 @ 01:52 AM
David:
The Bible is way too serious an issue for that to happen, and playing games with scriptures is what the scribes and pharisees did, but not us...


Understand that America will be leading the world almost into WW3 with its greed for oil, but nevertheless the Lord foresaw it and allows it to fulfill his Prophecy so the Covenant can be signed.

Sorry, David, but though I am a PreTrib PreMillist through-and-through, the only answer to your statement here is:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Reading "America", "WW3", "greed for oil" into the passage in Daniel is simply playing games with Scripture to make it match your personal political stand.

The (concentrate on what the passage actually says) Curtmudgeon

[David]

Amazingly preterists doctrine seems to stem from ONE WORD, the he is Daniel 9 :27, and they have otally negated all other scriptures in hopes that they have this unclear pronoun connected up right.

Oh well, if they want a past tense doctrine they have the excuse they need.

It's like the snake churches that take one verse, out of the New testament and think they are spiritual by handling snakes in their service.

You get what you want and deserve, and if people can;t see that the vast majority of scriptures from every angle and from all prophets shows there will be a covenant and then a building of the 3rd temple, so be it. They weren;t meant to know and the Lord hasn;t openned their eyes, straight forward and simple

For all the mathematical exact truth is there plain and simple and yet they resort to one word mistranslations to spawn a whole doctrine and whole way of negating prophecy.

Amazing but true, and yet I wouldn;t have believed people would do such a thing, but they have and are and if gives them excuse NOT to know current events or future events...as they have zero oil in their lamps.

Got to go .. must post about the AC and that he is not against church Christians but a fulfmment for them, as well as the Jews and Muslims and New Agers etc. etc. Only the elect will be able to see through him only because they KNOW prophecy.

According to scriptures

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Prophecymysteries2.html

Remember don;t make a whole doctrine out of one verse,but make sure all verses corelate and say the same thing. For the Lord is not the author of confusion, and all his prophets spoke about the same things in the future. It isn;t disjointed but cohesive and exact and mathematical, and a clear trumpet that gives us warning.

God bless ...

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-08-2003 @ 11:03 PM
efta777:
He was talking to people who knew the O.T. and the prophecies therein and I believe they would have easily recognized that this was the covenant he was referring to.

And this is exactly where I would say: He was talking to people who knew the O.T. and the prophecies therein and I believe they would have easily recognized that this was not the covenant he was referring to.

What's a mother to do? :no: :teeth:

I understand your position, but I disagree with it; I expect you understand my position just as well, and disagree with it. We'll just leave it there and get on to divvying up the poor sheep in the middle! :thumb:

And e4e, I apologise for mislabelling (but certainly not libelling) you as a preterist; it's just that on this specific point your argument is also a common one for the preterists so I just lumped you in with them. My mistake.

The (must keep labels straight) Curtmudgeon

[Ted]

Since I last stopped by, a number of people commented. Allow me to try to distill the comments.

First, the argument about whether Jesus’ death “put an end to sin” is irrelevant. The statement in verse 24 says, “YOU have 70 weeks to do these 7 things, OR ELSE.” Because of the probationary language, the “or else” is implied. Therefore, whatever Jesus did has no bearing on the satisfaction of these conditions.

Next, 9:24 makes it explicitly clear that the prophecy IS for the Jews. But I must note that this prophecy is NOT for anyone in the ten tribes! Those people had become lo ammi (not my people, cf. Hos 1:9). Therefore the prophecy applies only to the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. This point is often overlooked.

The question is raised about the placement of the cross with respect to the 70 weeks. It’s actually quite easy. First, Dan 9:25 places the end of the 69 weeks at the arrival of “Messiah the Prince.” Several NT passages verify that this is exactly what happened. (See Mark 1:15, John 1:19-24; 4:25, Heb 1:3, 1 Pet 1:20) It is further of note that the story of the Magi in Matt 2 is IMPOSSIBLE unless the end of the 69 weeks was the baptism/anointing of the Messiah. They were absolutely certain as to the identity of the owner of the star. Yet there is no prophecy that points to the time of his birth, unless Dan 9:25 points to his arrival on the scene as a priest (cf. 1 Sam 2:35-36) that would be anointed at the age of 30 (Num 4, 2 Chron 31:15-16).

The next step is to identify “the prince who is to come.” Most people make the erroneous assumption that it was Titus. This won’t work for several reasons. First, Titus was not a prince. Yes, he succeeded to the Roman Imperial throne, but hereditary succession wasn’t the rule, so a priestly title is anachronistic. Second, “the people” cannot refer to an army. In scripture the term always means the populace. But most important, it violates Hebrew grammar.

9:25 says that it will be 69 weeks “until Messiah the Prince comes.” This is the antecedent of “the people of the prince who is to come.” Therefore, “the prince who is to come” is the Messiah! This means that the Jews were to destroy Jerusalem. And this is exactly what happened. The Jews, led by the zealots, revolted against Rome. This revolt led to the Roman Army destroying the city. The Romans did the mechanical destruction, but the Jews were responsible. When we look back at Daniel’s prayer earlier in the chapter, it is quite clear that he holds the Jews responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem in 586BC. Nebuchadnezzar did the physical deed, but the Jews destroyed the city. Both times, Jesus’ people destroyed the city.

9:27 says “he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one week.” The Hebrew is again explicit. This is an existing covenant. The Messiah would not make a new covenant. And of course, there is no Antichrist making a peace treaty with anyone in view. The covenant is God’s covenant with the Jews as his firstborn (cf. Exod 4:22). They were placed in the crossroads of the earth (Isa 4:5-6) as missionaries (Gen 12:3). Jesus came to them to strengthen them for this task. But they refused him. In the middle of the 7 years (see chronology in John 2-5), he was crucified. His disciples continued the ministry to the Jews for the rest of the 7 years. This is the seventieth week. When Stephen brought the covenant lawsuit ending the period of probation, the time was up. The covenantal birthright blessings were forever removed from the Jews. They passed to the entire world in the ministry of the apostolic church.

Just for completeness, the last player is “the one who makes desolate.” This is John, son of Levi, of Gischala in Galilee. He is identified by Josephus as leader of the Zealots. They were the ones who instigated the revolt. John is the “one” who is identified in scripture pars pro toto in place of the entire Zealot group. He swept in “on the wing of desolations.” The Zealots murdered thousands of priests, in the temple, and left them unburied. The rest of the list can wait. He ruled until complete destruction was poured out on him. He stands as the corporate identity of the rebellious Jews in AD70.

There is a simple, easy, scriptural explanation for all of the elements of Daniel 9:24-27. The seventy weeks ended in AD34. The verdict of destruction had been pronounced. The verdict was executed in AD 70. The Dispensationalist timeline depends on a complete misunderstanding of the prophecy. In places it seems to work, but only because the Hebrew is ignored. When the Hebrew is understood, it is impossible to support the Dispensationalist timeline.

[David]

Sorry, exactly and precisely at the end of tribulation, Jesus returns, exactly three and a half days after the two witnesses have been killed. You have no witnesses, no trumpets, no tribulation, no 3rd Temple. Nop covenant, nothing even approximating prophecies.

Just negating sin, negating judgment, negating prophecy and pretending its all over and a third of the world died, and one third burnt up, just a doctrine fabricated from one or two verses.. Amazing amzing, unbelieveable unbelieveable.

But that's your choice and responsibility and hence you have no idea whatsoever as to what is happenning now, because in preterists terms nothing will happen and Jesus is ruling and reigning and you probably think Christians are ruling and reigning now as well.

Amazing

David

[bar Jonah]

David, there are strong arguments for each of the many sides in this issue... but honestly, you seem utterly confused on what the issues actually are.

You are mixing up Daniel's prophecy with the John's Revelation, and apparently assuming they are describing the exact same scenario, when you cannot assume they are the same thing at all. From a preterist view, Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled decades before John even received his Revelation, which described OTHER events that happen much, much later, and have still not occurred. They fully agree with you that the events in Revelation haven't come to pass. They'd have to be flaming idiots to think otherwise...

From a dispensational "semi-preterist" view (like that of an Acts-9er), Daniel's prophecy was Plan A, but it was cut short in the 69th or 70th week when Israel was cut off. (I used to think as Bob Enyart does that it was cut short in the 70th week, but I now believe it was in the 69th, for reasons given elsewhere.) Because this was cut short, God instituted Plan B, which included Paul's new ministry replacing Peter's and the Twelve's, and this Plan B would eventually end with the events of Revelation, which would be the new, future, reinstituted end of Daniel's prophecy.

Either way, you don't seem to know what you're arguing against, because you keep accusing us of things we don't believe in. Yes, we'd have to be imbiciles to think that the book of Revelation was fulfilled 2,000 years ago. It wasn't even written until decades after Daniel's prophecy was scheduled to happen.

So please get to know the issues involved in this debate before spouting wholesale straw man arguments all over the place like a spray of machine gun bullets. It isn't edifying for anyone on any side of the debate, least of all your own.

[Faramir]

03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:

Amazingly preterists doctrine seems to stem from ONE WORD, the he is Daniel 9 :27, and they have totally negated all other scriptures in hopes that they have this unclear pronoun connected up right.

Amazingly you continue to show a total lack of understanding of preterist doctrine. Here are just a few of the many verses used to support the preterist doctrine:

Matthew 16:28 -- There are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.

Matthew 24:34 -- This generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled.

Revelation 1:1 -- The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

Revelation 3:11 -- Behold, I come quickly.

Revelation 22:10 -- The time is at hand.


03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:
Oh well, if they want a past tense doctrine they have the excuse they need.

It's like the snake churches that take one verse, out of the New testament and think they are spiritual by handling snakes in their service.

You get what you want and deserve, and if people can;t see that the vast majority of scriptures from every angle and from all prophets shows there will be a covenant and then a building of the 3rd temple, so be it. They weren;t meant to know and the Lord hasn;t openned their eyes, straight forward and simple

Preterist do not need an excuse we have the clear statements of scripture to back us up. Of course that is what you say as well.
However, when asked to back up your claims with scripture all you have said so far is something along the lines of; it is so straight forward and simple.

Well heck, I'll bite. I just don't get it. Show me from scripture just how "straight forward it is. I'll even make it easy on you. Why don't you use scripture to answer the question that erta777 has already asked:


03-08-2003 @ 06:24 PM
efta777:

Then, give me Biblical references to back up the fact that in the middle of the 70th week a peace agreement will be signed between ten nations. All I see in my Bible is that he will make a covenant with many, which Jesus did, almost exactly quoting Daniel in Matt 26:28.

Please attempt to convince me that these things are Biblical.



03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:
For all the mathematical exact truth is there plain and simple and yet they resort to one word mistranslations to spawn a whole doctrine and whole way of negating prophecy.

Amazing but true, and yet I wouldn't;t have believed people would do such a thing, but they have and are and if gives them excuse NOT to know current events or future events...as they have zero oil in their lamps.


OK. I've provided you with several verses that support the orthodox preterist position. So your allegation shows either gross ignorance of the orthodox preterist position, or intentional misrepresentation of the orthodox preterist position.




Amazing but true, and yet I wouldn't;t have believed someone would do such a thing, but you have and are and if this gives you an excuse NOT to know the orthodox preterist position or NOT to back up your position with scriptural references...as you have zero oil in your lamp.

See, two can play at that game. :tongue:

So far, you have show a total lack of understanding of the preterist position, yet you attack us as ignorant scripture twisters. When asked to show biblical proof of one of your positions (see above quote from efta) your only response is that it is obvious.

It may be obvious to you, but then orthodox preterism is obvious to me. I will be happy to show you scripture to support my position. Will you do the same?



03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:
According to scriptures

David


Which ones? :huh:


03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:
Remember don;t make a whole doctrine out of one verse,but make sure all verses correlate and say the same thing. For the Lord is not the author of confusion, and all his prophets spoke about the same things in the future. It isn;t disjointed but cohesive and exact and mathematical, and a clear trumpet that gives us warning.


Here we agree. Of course I believe that the orthodox preterist view by far does the best job of correlating escatological scripture. It was the inherent confusion in DF theology that eventually led me to convert to the orthodox preterist position.

You keep saying that orthodox preterism is based on one verse. I have given you several verses that support the orthodox preterist position. If you are going to viciously attack someones position, I suggest that you try to understand it a bit better first.

Your commitment to your position is admirable, but if you want to convince others of your position you need to do more than say that it is obvious from scripture. To me it is not obvious at all. If it is so obvious, then you shouldn't have much trouble providing scripture reference when requested, should you?

I look forward to your response.

[David]

Right Idea,

The right idea is that daniel and revelation are exactly the same talking about exactly the same events and that Daniel and Revelation are not disjointed but harmonic in exact mathematical perfection

It couldn't be simplier to understand.

The days of Daniel are the same as the 1260 days and the times, time and dividing of time and the 42 months.This is the topic of this threrad, that you keep missing with your one word mistranslation of one pronoun . This topic is about the exact days of daniel that match exactly with revelation because they are talking future tense concerning the Last Days that start with the Covenant.

The Bible is not disjointed but harmonic and it fits together perfectly in its scenario, for the Lord is not the author of confusion but of peace in the midst of war, as we are the children of light and not the children of darkness. We have oil in our lamps and are aware of what is happenning.

In His prophetic Service

David

PS) But come on brethren let's make progress and not get stuck on step ONE when we should have progressed and gone way beyond. Mathematically its like being unable to do addition of whole numbers when we should be doing the calculus.

[bar Jonah]

The reason we can't progress, David, is because you are still resolutely refusing to provide a scrap of scripture for your view. If you want to know why we haven't advanced any further than "step 1," look in the mirror. We are here to discuss things such as WHETHER Daniel is talking about the exact same events and timing as the book of Revelation. And your contribution?

"Well, it is, of course! Because it is! It's so obvious, because it is!"

And that doesn't help anyone, least of all you. So do yourself and everyone else a favor and provide scriptural support for your view. Otherwise, the rest of us may be forced to simply ignore your further foundationless potshots...

[efta777]

David,
Please answer my questions that I asked of you which you completely ignored a few days ago.

The most important one being: Give me scriptural proof (No matter how vague) for ANYTHING to do with either the U.S. or OIL. It's such a fundamental part of your doctrine that this should be VERY easy for you and you shouldn't be sidestepping it like you are!

I also take issue with you telling us all to study your timelines to know the truth. I, as a Christian, hereby tell EVERYONE here that if they want to know the truth, ignore ALL of these timelines, preterist or futurist, and search for truth in scripture. Don't read scripture in light of the timeline, read the timeline in light of scripture and refute it if you must. If you don't agree with me on this David, then I refuse to argue with you any longer, and I would implore everyone else to do the same because you would be missing a foundational step in your search for the truth.

So please, just give me a couple straightforward answers to my question without trying to get around them by trash talking preterists.

RightIdea,
I think you have also misrepresented the preterist position unintentionally:


From a preterist view, Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled decades before John even received his Revelation, which described OTHER events that happen much, much later, and have still not occurred. They fully agree with you that the events in Revelation haven't come to pass. They'd have to be flaming idiots to think otherwise...

No, from a preterist view, John recieved his revelation BEFORE A.D. 70 (Read Gentry's "Before Jeruselem Fell" to get a good idea why we can be confident in saying this), and thus, MOST of the events therein (I.E. before chapter 20) have already occured, and are still occuring in the millenial kingdom. So call me a flaming idiot if you must, but I just needed to clear that up and if you want to discuss Revelation with me, out of respect for David, we should do that elsewhere.

In him,

[bar Jonah]

03-11-2003 @ 12:16 AM
efta777:
RightIdea,
I think you have also misrepresented the preterist position unintentionally:

No, from a preterist view, John recieved his revelation BEFORE A.D. 70 (Read Gentry's &quot;Before Jeruselem Fell&quot; to get a good idea why we can be confident in saying this), and thus, MOST of the events therein (I.E. before chapter 20) have already occured, and are still occuring in the millenial kingdom. So call me a flaming idiot if you must, but I just needed to clear that up and if you want to discuss Revelation with me, out of respect for David, we should do that elsewhere.

In him,
No, I don't consider you a flaming idiot... so I think we are talking past each other somehow; I'm not sure how.

Daniel's 70 weeks end long before 70 AD... it was my impression that preterists hold that the destruction in 70 AD is outside of the 70 weeks. I would assume that you believe the 70 weeks ended long before 70 AD... do you not? The difference is an additional 7 weeks time, which obviously don't fit into Daniel's prophecy, no matter what view one holds...

Or am I completely missing something?

[efta777]

Yes, the seventy weeks is outside of revelation, so you are right there, but you said that preterists believe that the events in revelation had not yet taken place, which is untrue. Did I still misunderstand you?

[bar Jonah]

Then you're right, I did misunderstand the preterist view on that specific point. Basically because no one had ever explained that aspect of preterism, and I shouldn't have assumed. I get your point now.

The long and the short of it is that my point to David still stands -- anyone who believes all of Revelation was fulfilled almost 2,000 years ago would have to be a flaming idiot. And on that, I think you and I would agree! ;)

[David]

Totally agree with your Right Idea, Right Idea

For in your words, people that think Revelation is past tense are flaming idiots... I would totally agree with you, akthough they might not like your graphic description of their total mis-interpretation.

And now back to the EXACT Daniel Timeline that has all the EXACT scriptures from Daniel and revelation that exactly match, that so many preterists try to evade, negate and nullify with mere words without any numbers always retreating into their past.

For revelationwise when I posted that exact and precise Timeline there was none of them that could respond...

As for the U.S, in scriptures and history, preterists don;t know current events because they think prophecy and the Lord have no mention of anything happenning today. In other words they are lost in the presense because they don;t know the past or the future.

But let's go over it a bit with them....

Mind you, they will need their minds to advance as it takes study and research..

Oil is presense tense and it came from the past tense, in Iraq it's because the Garden of Eden type vegetation got buried beneath the sands that were deposited by the World wide flood of Noah.

As for America. she is the Whore that gets destroyed by the AC, who comes from an even worse country Russia. Any that read revelation with an open mind see it instantly.

America, the Whore
SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/7KingdomsofMan.html

Follows the 7 previous kingdoms and is fornicating econimically and spiritually with her underlyings and making herself rich. For she is the city system and trade is her game and materialism is her religion. And she is trying to get the whole world to worship it, especially her own ...and its working. Mind you even though many of the American people are against the war, the NWO absolutely needs it, and democracy is and always has been a ploy of words, whereas the real power lies within and hidden. Pity but true.

And if you study current events for more than twenty minutes, you understand the war in Iraq is for oil and power and dominance. That again is a no-brainer that the rest of the world so easily sees despite the ridiculous rhetoric of the Americans.

So to understand revelation and current events and the future, you have to be able to pray and understand the present and even the world's recent history.

The Lord can speak to you on economics, history, politics, and not just religion. If you erxpand your horizons away from religion and away from thinking the Roman Catholic Church is the suprteme evil in the world, you can make progress.

And for further evidence concerning babylon the Whore, consider
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TwodestructionsofBabylon.html

Now you are making progress, preterists

Or you can consider some of the Right Ideas from Right Idea

IHS

David

[Faramir]

David:

Yet again we have current events being used to interpret scripture. Personally I use scripture to interpret scripture. I do not use current events to interpret scripture.

:argh:

The following parody is satire, not intended to be taken literally. The purpose is to try to show David how his arguments look to a preterist.


03-11-2003 @ 09:32 AM
AntiDavid:

Totally agree with your Right Idea, Right Idea

For in your words, people that think all Revelation is past tense are flaming idiots... I would totally agree with you, the preterist on this board do not believe that all the events in Revelation are fulfilled, of course David conveniently left out the word all when he quoted you. Showing yet again a gross reading comprehension deficiency and a total lack of understanding of the orthodox preterist position.

And now back to the EXACT Daniel Scriptures that tells us EXACTLY that the 70 weeks end around AD 33 and EXACTLY matches the scriptures Revelation, that so many futurists try to evade, negate and nullify with mere timelines without any scripture always retreating into their current events.

For revelation wise when I requested specific scripture that supported the need for an exact and precise Timeline David was unable to respond...

As for the U.S, in scriptures and history, David don’t know the scriptures because he thinks prophecy and the Lord have everything to do with happenings today. In other words he is lost in the present because he don’t know the past and thinks he knows the future.

But let's go over it a bit with him....

Mind you, he will need his mind to advance as it takes study and research..

The temple of the first century is destroyed in the present tense and it came from the tribulation of AD 70 in the past tense, it's because the Jesus came in judgment against the Jews for rejecting their Messiah.

As for the Anti Christ, David cannot show one place in scripture that mentions a single "The Anti-Christ". Any that read revelation with an open mind see it instantly.


SEE http://www.tektonics.org/eschback01.html

Furthermore the word antichrist is never once mentioned in the book of Revelation. Nor is any of the other blather that David has posted thus far, for if it were, surely David would be able to give a scripture reference which he has been requested to do many time, but has thus far has been unable to provide.

And if you study scripture for more than twenty minutes, you understand the war in Iraq is not mentioned at all. That again is a no-brainer that the rest of the world so easily sees despite the ridiculous rhetoric of David.

So to understand revelation you have to study the Bible. To understand current events you must study the newspaper. To know the future, you have to not die.

The Lord can speak to you on economics, history, politics, and not just religion. If you expand your horizons away from current events and away from thinking preterism is the supreme evil in the world, you can make progress.

And for further evidence concerning preterism consider
http://www.tektonics.org/olivet01.html

Now you are making progress, David.

Or you can consider some of the Right Ideas from DDW



This does not represent my opinion of David, nor of his position. This is a parody of David's "arguments" only. Any derogatory comments or references were meant purely as satire to make a point. No offense was meant.

[David]

Faramir,

Thanks for reposting my comments, as that part of your reply made sense....as for the rest, you may have to shake your head.

Hoping to hear better things from you in the future

IHS

david

Remember all this thread is about the future and Not about the misconceptions of preterism that doesn;t understand curent events nor the future. Get your thinking hats on, and see the math and exact number of days between events as dictated to the Prophets ... Daniel and John

Check each of the scriptures given and notice the EXACT match.

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

[bar Jonah]

David, here at TheologyWeb, we don't make broad and vague claims and then throw up a link, expecting people to go to some other website for what you should really be providing here.

Instead of shoving people off to some other place, you should be providing scriptural support HERE. And until you do, I'm afraid people will still refuse to take you seriously...

I have yet to see one single verse from the Bible published here in support of your views. Not even one!

[e4e]

I wont to thank you guys for making me study and dwell on the word a lot more concerning this subject.

I am presently consedering the notion that the destruction of the temple was not the great tribulation spoken of by the prophet Daniel. I just don't think it holds up very well. Also the great tribulation as a sepreate 7 year period does not hold up ether.

I have some ideas that I will share later.

To you personally David. Dont be so dogmatic that you ignore the evidence when your possission is challenged. We are here to learn and I hope you consider the evidence when presented.:read:

Yours in Christ e4e

[bar Jonah]

03-11-2003 @ 01:23 PM
e4e:

I wont to thank you guys for making me study and dwell on the word a lot more concerning this subject.

I am presently consedering the notion that the destruction of the temple was not the great tribulation spoken of by the prophet Daniel. I just don't think it holds up very well. Also the great tribulation as a sepreate 7 year period does not hold up ether.

I have some ideas that I will share later.

To you personally David. Dont be so dogmatic that you ignore the evidence when your possission is challenged. We are here to learn and I hope you consider the evidence when presented.:read:

Yours in Christ e4e
Amen, E4E.

Do I understand you correctly, that you are considering the "semi-preterist" view of some dispensationalists, then? That Daniel's prophecy of weeks was supposed to be completely fulfilled almost 2,000 years ago, but was cut short?

Just curious. :smile:

[e4e]

RightIdea
Do I understand you correctly, that you are considering the "semi-preterist" view of some dispensationalists, then? That Daniel's prophecy of weeks was supposed to be completely fulfilled almost 2,000 years ago, but was cut short?

At present I cannot justify the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as being the abomination of desalation. I believe that this is yet future. I am cooking right now so I can't get into it but I will shere my ideas soon.

God bless

[bar Jonah]

03-11-2003 @ 03:02 PM
e4e:

RightIdea

At present I cannot justify the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as being the abomination of desalation. I believe that this is yet future. I am cooking right now so I can't get into it but I will shere my ideas soon.

God bless
I, too, had to put the lid on the pot and simmer for a while, as a result of this thread. I know just how you feel. :thumb:

[efta777]

Well, I just got done making myself some french toast (Yes, I know I should be boycotting French food, but I tried to Americanize it as much as possible), and I can now respond.

David,
Maybe we're starting to make progress. Thanks for beginning to answer my questions. However, (This may sound strong but it's what I believe) you seem to have a very un-Christian attitude about this whole thing. Instead of being patronistic and assuming that I don't agree with you because I don't know how to read the Bible, you should engage me as someone with real, valid questions about your position and answer as straightforward as possible. Don't be condescending and people will begin to open up more about their own views and the discussion can get under way.
Now, to continue my question; you started to explain the oil thing - how it has to do with the garden of Eden being buried by the flood under Iraq creating oil. I understand what you're saying, but I don't see where the garden of Eden has to do with the end times, or America's quest to get this oil. Please don't give me links to the answers, just give me the answers yourself.

Right Idea,
Glad we're finally on the same page. If you want to start a thread to discuss Revelation with a Preterist I'd be happy to get involved in that and explain what I believe about it.

e4e,
Good to hear that you're making progress. Can't wait to hear what you come up with.

Faramir,
LOL.

[e4e]

This is my translation of Daniel 9: 26-27. You will notice that a lot of the verbiage has changed yet I am true, as for as I can tell, to the actual source material that I have. As with many translations it is almost impossible to state in another language the actual meaning that was intended by the original. The translator often uses words that will make the language more fluent and understandable to him even though the words used are not actually used in the original. This sometimes causes the translated version to say something that was not intended by the original. There is no malicious intent on my part of the original translators part if this occurs.

The text I am using is the Masoretic Text originally set in 1866 by the British and Foreign Bible Society.

The original Hebrew had no distinction between upper and lower case letters and no punctuation . All capitalization and punctuation is supplied by me.

Daniel 9:26-27 After sixty and two weeks the Messiah shall be cut off. It is not to Him, the city or the sanctuary to destroy the people of a prince coming. The end is with an outrageous overflowing and until the end war desolations are determined. A covenant shall be confirmed with many for one week. In the half of the week sacrifice and offering cease. Upon a wing as abominations a desolator; even until the end. That which was decreed shall pour out on the desolater.

[efta777]

So, e4e, what is your interpretation of your translation's impact on eschatological views?

[e4e]

efta777
So, e4e, what is your interpretation of your translation's impact on eschatological views?

e4e== Well, It would seems to me that the book of Daniel wasn't taken seriously by the religious elete at the time because if this translation is accurate and faithful to the original text then they knew that the Messiah was not coming as a liberator.

Next there is the referance to the end war that is seperate from the cutting off of the Messiah.

After that a desolator of something that desacrates is standing on a wing and will stay there untell the end when at that time he or it will be destroyed. (That which is determined shall pore out on the desolator.)This takes place after the 70 weeks of years are expired. What startled me is how well this fit with Rev.17.

It just semes to be saying something a lot different than what I have heard before from any body. I have not accepted this as yet. I believe it does deserve investagation and that is what I am attempting to do now. Make up my mine according to the evidense.

:read:

[efta777]

e4e
Well, not being familiar myself with the source material or the many nuances of the translation process, I'm not really sure what to think about this, so that being said I'd love to get some input from all the scholars out there who know about this kind of stuff.
My question to them: Is this indeed a valid way of translating Dan 9:26-27?

[e4e]

That is why I am puting it to pear review as the scripture instructs, efta.

[David]

Daniel is not four verses but 12 chapters,with 2,4,7,8,9,11, and 12 being prophetic and exact.

So its beyond me why some take four verses and make it their whole eschalogical viewpoint so that they negate all other prophecies from Daniel and all the other prophets.

Amazing, I wouldn't have believed that people would go over so few verses and make them their whole doctrine. Amazing...

But do note that the Daniel exact timeline correlastes exactly to all the prophets...... for name one which it doesn't relate to, for even Moses talked about the Great tribulation of 42 months to come. have you never read these scriptures about the 'prophet like unto me' meaning Moses. For it is not talking about Jesus but about one of our two witnesses of the End Times.

For again you can;t negate these things and witnesses by looking backwards but by looking forwards. For they never came and are in the future.

Straight forweard and simple.

david

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Prophecymysteries.html

[efta777]

David,
It is either 1) A blatant LIE, or 2) Sheer ignorance (Take your pick) that allows you to say that we base our whole eschatology on four verses. Rather, we have the major prophets, the minor prophets, the Gospels, the Epistles and Revelation working directly for us (And probably small parts in the other books too), and therefore, you are totally off base to tell us that our eschatology is based off four verses.

So if that statement was indeed out of ignorance, I forgive you and you can now go about your posts without repeating this error. If you do happen to repeat it, we will know that you are simply lying and cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

I know that's a strong statement, but I feel strongly about the subject.

[David]

Effta,

Of course you feel strongly on the subject, and feel slighted that I should say that preterists base almost their whole theory on four verses and the ending of daniel 9.

But I say that as that's what I have seen , as preterist just stick to the misplaced pronouns of four verses from what I have read, so you will have to educate them further or change their minds.

And I do want to thank you for encouraging me to write this new posting concerning the False prophets in the Bible that continually mock the Lord's Prophecy, in saying that nothing will rock their world and 'peace and safety is coming'

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/PeaceandSafetyFalseProphets.html

And you really can;t chide for for giving you my words in hyperlinks, as that is definitely permissable as it saves time, so that I don;t have to waste time repeating the same thing over and over and over again on each and every Bulletin Board. Time is of the essense even though preterists seem to think nothing will be happenning and that jesus is ruling and reigning and they are in Pradise and in the Millinium and no wars or framines or earthquakes, or pestilences, or anything will disrupt their theories and lifestyle.

I think differently and am convinced we have to reach the lost as quickly as possible and enlist more missionaries than ever to gather the lost sheep of the Lord.

In His Missionary service

David

PS) So thanks for the new posting topic ettra, much appreciated

[David]

As for Garden of Eden and Oil,

The location of the Garden of eden was a reral place and its location was rather precise in scriptures because genesis is a factual Book of real events and real people and real numbers.

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/LocationoftheGardenofEden.html

And so after the Worldwide flood of Noah, the four river plateau and delta was inundalted with water and sand and debris which covered the vegetation and the pressure has now turned it into oil.

That's science and scriptures.

And greedy America wants to now get the Iraqui oil and has convinced only a few of its own that it is necessary to make war to secure it, under the guise of liberating the UIraq people.

So Bible principles and the Bible and the Lord's Science all help us understand current events

IMO

david

[efta777]

No, David, I understand the SCIENCE behind the creation of oil by the flood, you and I are on the same page there; however, I just don't see where America's war for oil (Which doesn't exist, but let's just pretend it does), is fortold in scriptures. Which verses say that America (Which you say is the new Babylon) is going to have a war to find the garden of Eden?

I don't have time to read those articals right now, but I'll try to later.

[Hitch]

And you really can;t chide for for giving you my words in hyperlinks, as that is definitely permissable as it saves time, so that I don;t have to waste time repeating the same thing over and over and over again on each and every Bulletin Board. Time is of the essense even though preterists seem to think nothing will be happenning and that jesus is ruling and reigning and they are in Pradise and in the Millinium and no wars or framines or earthquakes, or pestilences, or anything will disrupt their theories and lifestyle.


Your constant lies are a detriment to the name of Christ.


Hitch

[e4e]

THE ABOMONATION THAT MAKES DESOLATE

The Dome of the Rock, a Mohammedan Memoral detacated to the place that Mohammed was supposed to have been taken up to heave on the back of a beast accompanied by Gabriel the Archangle stands in what was at the time of Jesus, the court of the gentiles.

There is another little dome that stands on Mount Moriah and that is, The Dome of Tablets to commemorate the receiving of Koran. This little dome stands where the Holy of Holies use to stand. This is the spot where The Ark of The Covanent was onced placed in Soloman's Temple.

Are you guys starting to get the picture?

[Hitch]

Adn theres a house now in the field I used to play in.
What is your point?

[e4e]

Hitch
And theres a house now in the field I used to play in.
What is your point?

None are so blind that they will not see.

[bar Jonah]

Yesterday @ 02:43 PM
Hitch:

And you really can;t chide for for giving you my words in hyperlinks, as that is definitely permissable as it saves time, so that I don;t have to waste time repeating the same thing over and over and over again on each and every Bulletin Board. Hitch
On the contrary, Hitch. It is TheologyWeb policy for people to not simply post hyperlinks as their arguments. In many cases, people are warned not to do it again.

There are plenty of circumstances where hyperlinks are allowed, particularly in non-debate threads. However, in a debate, if you have something to contribute, then post it here, please.

[efta777]

I think Hitch was quoting David.

[David]

I totally disagree, for people to post other people's hyperlinks should not be allowed, as the individual posting should be able to answer a question, but posting your own should be encouraged as we need as many Christian web-sites as possible to counter the atrocious number of dark side sites.

For if any Christian has an understanbding of any topic, why repeat over and over again the same things and waste immense time. That's wasting the Lord's time and out time.

Giving hyperlinks to my own thoughts, is valid and appropriate. especially when the topic has been dealt with before. People need to learn to study and learn and search and discern. and NOT waste time with chit chatting, and word play. If someone has a truth, they should be giving it to others, give and it shall be given unto you....that's what we are suppose to do as missionaries. And the more you get the more you are given.....

But wasting time repeating the same old thing over and over agin is inappropriate...that's common sense and spiritual. I HATE wasting time, as I know how valuable it is....

In my opinion and all opinions aren;t equal
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/AllOpinionsarenotequal.html

David

[bar Jonah]

David, no one said you have to type everything from scratch. You can cut and paste the relevant text from the source pointed to by the hyperlink, almost as easily as you can cut and paste the hyperlink itself. Just make sure you attribute what you cut and paste if it's not your own creation.

But post it here. It only takes seconds to cut and paste it here.

Thanks.

[efta777]

yeah, that would be nice. I don't think its a law, just common courtesy so we don't have to keep going all over the internet to figure out what you're saying.

[David]

Thanks bro's for allowing to use my own words, and I would encourage you to make sites as well, so more Christians are countering the dark side.

SEE Go ye into all Cyberspace
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Goyeintoall.html

As for whole hyperlinks, they are such that the title is covered and is not taken out of context, for when writying you have to cover all arguments within so that no real counters are possible.

David

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear David:

Hyperlinks are encouraged if they can add some background to a topic under discussion here when the main substance of the argument is posted here. One of the reasons is that this rule is not controverted:

******
Please limit the number of major points made in a debate/discussion to 1 or 2 per post max as this encourages discourse. Rebuttal posts get undesirably lengthy when addressing many points.
******

A website article may go way over the length and number of points that can be adequately addressed in a forum context, thus an argument cannot be made by links. There must be something substantive posted here for which the link is simply added background data for whomever may be interested.

I hope this clears things up somewhat.

[bar Jonah]

Thank you, DeeDee. You said it much better than I did.

[efta777]

I read that last artical David, and that's the only one I've really agreed with yet.

[efta777]

David,
I just got around to reading that artical you posted on the Garden of Eden being under Iraq. It's actually pretty interesting - though by no means a certainty. However, what if it is true? You need to take the next step and find out how that relates to any future prophecy. I don't see anything in the Bible saying that America will go searching for this oil, or the garden of Eden.

[David]

Etta,

the Bible isn;t the end - all book and you have to know the Lord and have His Holy Spirit to fill in the missing spaces and the blanks , thats why he wanted us to have a personal relationship as everythingisn;t in print, as even John was told not to write exact specifics....otherwise true Christians would be persecuted before their time was up ...and as is, it allows people to choose which has always been the Lord's plan.

America is babylon the Whore that fornicates with the world's merchants and takes and takes and must be destroyed to bring peace...but the one that destroys her is the evil AC from his own eveil country.

So its absolutely lame to say every jot asnd title has to be in the Good Book, because it is the basic and we are suppose to PROGRESS to the specifics as I have been saying.

PROGRESS PROGRESS PROGRESS !!!!

IHS

David

[bar Jonah]

David, you have gone from saying that it's all very plain and obvious in scripture ... to now saying that it's not in the Bible, that scripture is silent on this, and that you know this is true because "God told me so?"

Is that REALLY what your argument boils down to???

And if so, then are you saying that almost ALL of the deeply passionate, God-fearing people on this board who have a close relationship with Jesus Christ, who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit ... just aren't quite as spiritual as you, as evidenced by the fact that they disagree with you on this?

And lastly, are you aware of just how perfectly circular your logic is?

[efta777]

David, I have debated with people like you before, and I knew that eventually the argument would come down to you saying that you know the truth and we don't because you have better communication with God, or you are a better Christian. It always happens, it's just a matter of when. I honestly don't believe you are any less of a Christian than I am just because I think you're wrong on your Eschatological ideas, but apparently we differ here, too, as now you are trying to tell me that you are a better Christian than me or other Preterists. I can't debate you anymore if this is your opinion.

[e4e]

America was around durring the egypt was a world Empire.
America was around when the Asserians was a world Empire.
America was around when Babalon was a world empire Gee, America has been around 3500 yrs are so. David, do you know anything about what you are saying or is it all just mindless speculation?

[Ted]

David,

I must note that since I joined this discussion, you have made flamboyant claims about the precision of your proposed timeline, but have not attempted to consider the comments I have made. This leads me to consider two possible conclusions. Either you are not reading all the posts, or you do not have an answer for my objections to your position. Perhaps you can inform us as to which of these possibilities is true.

You state that all scripture agrees with all other scripture. On this we can agree. But it seems that you are making assumptions that have not been stated. Let us revisit a few points.

Most importantly, let us consider the foundation of the 70 weeks timing. Daniel 9:25 states that Daniel is to “know and discern that from the going forth of the decree” the time span until Messiah would be 69 weeks. Disregarding the choice of decree, I would like you to explain how Daniel was to know about 360-day prophetic years. You need to overcome the following obstacles.

1. The only place in scripture that allows the arithmetic for 360-day years is Revelation 11-13. The book of Revelation was written six centuries after Daniel, and five centuries after any legitimate candidate decree. Therefore, it is illegitimate to use Revelation to figure out 360-day years.

2. There is no evidence in archeology or scripture that a 360-day year was ever known by the Jews. Even the Essenes, who kept a nominal 360-day year, added five extra days as holidays to stay synchronized with the seasons, resulting in an actual 365-day year. Further, had anyone kept a 360-day year, the spring and fall festivals would have rapidly become the winter and summer, then the fall and spring festivals. Since they were defined by God as seasonal, the Hebrew calendar had to stay synchronized with the seasons. (The Egyptians DID keep a 360-day year, but were unconcerned with the fact that it slid relative to the seasons.)

3. The common claim that a 360-day year is found in the flood account is in error. The 150 days from the 17th of one month to the 17th of a month five months later does not result in 30-day months. Rather, since Hebrews used inclusive counting (both the first and last days are counted, as in the 3 days in the tomb from Friday to Sunday, with an actual elapsed time of about 36 hours) at least one of the months had fewer than 30 days. This agrees with the observational Hebrew calendar, where the first day of the month is identified by observation of the new moon. Since the lunar month is 29.5 days long, Hebrew months are 29 and 30 days long, and alternate. Weather obscuration of the moon can result in variations in this pattern.

The next problem is to explain how the cross is the end of the 69 weeks, when the scripture says “until Messiah the Prince.” It doesn’t say, “until the cross” or “until the triumphal entry.” Rather, as several NT witnesses say, the “manifestation” of Messiah at His baptism was the end of the 69 weeks (Heb 1:3, 1 Pet 1:20, Gal 4:4, John 1:19-24; 4:25).

Third, the key element of the decree is to be “restoration” of Jerusalem. This requires self-government. Further, the decree is to explicitly state that Jerusalem is restored. This is required by “know and discern” in 9:25. Please explain how anyone reading the account of Nehemiah 2 is to “know and discern” that this event restores Jerusalem. It is essential that this answer exclude all other scriptural material, since the decree is to explicitly contain the element of restoration. When you find that Nehemiah 2 does not fit, consider Ezra 7.

Finally, I am NOT a Preterist. I am a careful student of scripture. My book, I Want to be Left Behind, which explores these issues in depth, has been endorsed by several prominent theologians, two of whom are well recognized authorities on Daniel and Revelation. You can get it through Amazon.com or almost any bookseller.

BTW, you assert that, “Moses talked about the Great tribulation of 42 months to come.” This is a very bold statement. You need to be very specific about this. Where does Moses record this length of time?

Ted

[efta777]

Thanks for that Ted. You've done a good job of showing that the end of the 69th week is the Baptism of Jesus (Though I suppose I'm just trusting that you've done your homework on these points that you've made unless someone else says differently). So then do you concede that the 70 weeks are over, or do you include a gap after this?

[Hitch]

03-16-2003 @ 09:43 PM
Hitch:

And you really can;t chide for for giving you my words in hyperlinks, as that is definitely permissable as it saves time, so that I don;t have to waste time repeating the same thing over and over and over again on each and every Bulletin Board. Time is of the essense even though preterists seem to think nothing will be happenning and that jesus is ruling and reigning and they are in Pradise and in the Millinium and no wars or framines or earthquakes, or pestilences, or anything will disrupt their theories and lifestyle.

additional comment; the above in bold is an out and out lie on Dave's part no preterist here has made any such declaration and RIGHT IDEA ignored the obvious here in a blatant attempt to confuse an d cloud the issue. Thereby taking part in Dave's misdeed.


Your constant lies are a detriment to the name of Christ.






Hitch Right Idea you disgust me. You are a shame to this forum.

Its funny though You chididng me for the screwed up drivel your pal Dave put up orginally. Par for your course.

HITCH

[Hitch]

03-17-2003 @ 07:00 PM
efta777:

I think Hitch was quoting David. Interesting you had no trouble noticing that E. But RI keep s his head iin a strange place.

[efta777]

I feel like there's some sort of midunderstanding here... As far as I can remember, Rightidea did not say anything malicious against you, Hitch, but merely mistakenly quoted you as saying something that David said. Also, RI and David don't seem to be anywhere near the same page on this issue at all.
So, let's all just make up and not fight any longer.

[Ted]

Isaac,

I do not concede that the seventy weeks are over. I SHOUT that they are over!

Ted

p.s. I have done my homework very carefully. If you will e-mail me (tednoel@cfl.rr.com) I will send you a technical paper on the issue. Also, my website (http://www.bibleonly.org) has extensive material on it, as does my book I Want to be Left Behind available at http://www.bibleonly.org/press/

[efta777]

Ted,
I'm glad that you correctly view the seventy weeks are over, yet you are still pre-mil, are you not? I checked out your book on Amazon.com and I thought I read that somewhere on the page. So are you also a future tribulationist? I only ask because most futurists view the coming trib to be the 70th week, which you obviously do not. Care to further clarify exactly where your view of Daniel's 70 weeks has led you in your eschatology?

[efta777]

I suppose I could just check your website...

[David]

As mentioned on my intial posting, this thread was suppose to be about scripture search and the exact days of Daniel, rather than four verses out of Daniel 9.

It is about the future and not about the past.

So do check out the exact timeline and make comments that disagree with the exact numbers....and the way both revelation and Daniel match exactly.

As for prophecy, it has always been from Adam, for even he because of his sin had to look forward to the Son of Man (Jesus) for redemption, no different than us...as all the Lord's people are saved by GRACE in exactly the same way. FAITH in the Messiah to come for those before jesus, and Faith in the Messiah that had come for us afterwards.

As for Moses, he talked about a prophet like unto him which was NOT Jesus. And yet people thought jesus was THAT PROPHET but obviously he was the Messiah and not That Prophet like unto Moses as talked about in Deut. 17.

So if you know that we will have THAT Prophet as he will be one of our Two witnesses or prophets of the End-Time then you also will know exactly as mentioned in Daniel and revelation over and over and over and over again that the length of the tribulation is exactly 42 months, 1260 days, three and a half years and time and times and the dividing of times,....How much more blatant can it get....

So SEE That prophet

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Jesuswasnoththatprophet.html

And notice how this posting is exactly along the lines of the question posed to me about Moses. And yet for those that can;t hyperlink. here it is ...


Jesus was Not "THAT PROPHET'


Jesus was a prophet but much more than a prophet, he was the 'Son of God' and 'Saviour' And he was NOT 'that Prophet' spoken about by Moses who would come in the Last Days as the Lord came in the middle period of HIS-Story. So te main prerequisite for understanding the Bible is knowing that the Jesus is Messiah, or Savior is DIVINE and equal with the Father. Matter of Fact, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equal and ONE and interchangeable. But as for us mere mortals no matter how good we are, we aren’t good enough and never will come even close to perfection, which is why we need a Messiah in the first place. And as we should know by now, only Jesus Christ ever lived a perfect live and the only divine person that ever died for us and who was and is able to remove our sins.

O.K., this is just basic theology and basic true life. Jesus was divine and we are mere human beings. We came in the flesh and was tempted as we are, yet without sin. No other person on Earth was like him, He was totally unique, are you following me ?

So even Enoch, even Noah, even Abraham, Elijah, Peter, or Paul can in no way match up with Jesus. He was their Savior, and Rock and as Paul said their ‘LORD and their GOD’. So let’s now look at Moses, who some revere as a god, for again even he was not perfect. And he said, the Lord would send another leader like unto him to help us in the End-Time.

Therefore let’s go over these scriptures, so we don’t get confused into believing that Jesus was ‘that prophet’ when Jesus was not a ‘mere man like unto Moses’. Its from Deuteronomy 18 ….my comments will be in …..(….)

For Moses said …….

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; (Yes we have to hearken first and foremost to Jesus, our Saviour through His Holy Spirit and through His WORDS, and if we do we will realize that the Lord will not leave us leaderless in the End-Time but will send us another leader, to help us through the Tribulation talked about by all the Prophets. This leader is talked about as one of the two witnesses in Revelation 11, Zechariah, Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23, Psalm 89, etc. etc. He is like unto Moses, and just a mere man, and even though he is a sinner like us, the Lord shall choose and use him.)

Deut. 18:16 According to all that thou desirest of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. (For we also shall be surrounded by the Lord’s flame of fire as we flee into the wilderness. Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. In other words, the Lord’s His-Story won’t be anti-climatic but progress as we shall be stronger in Faith than any people that have ever existed. And that wouldn’t be very hard considering how faithless and rebellious the first ‘Children of Israel’ were…. Joel 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. (as we march in unison under the Lord’s leadership in the Latter Days. I mean you didn’t think we would be in chaos and separated did you ?)

Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (Yes, Jesus did prophesy against the wicked system of his day, and about His Second Coming, but he wasn’t raised up from the brethren. Jesus was the Creator and before Abraham was, Jesus existed. He is the Alpha and the Omega, and had no beginning. He was NOT a creation of God but the Creator <See Jesus is the Creator and not a creation> …..so was Jesus like unto Moses, No, by their very natures they were absolutely different. Moses was a mortal, Jesus was God in the flesh. Moses was a sinner, Jesus was not. Jesus was DIVINE and all-powerful, Moses was NOT.)

Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (This is a hard saying, but when you consider that our End-Time Moses, will be telling us NOT to take the Mark and be forever aligned with the Anti-Christ Pharoah of the End-Time, then this again does make sense)

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. (So this is the criterion, of our End-Time Moses, he will speak prophesy in truth, and what he says will come to pass. He’s probably weak in speech as Moses was, but his prophecies will be fulfilled and he will have ‘literal’ power like unto Moses and his rod. <See Staff of Moses>)

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. (So even here, the Lord tells us how to have discernment. If the prophet’s words don’t come to pass, don’t believe him. If they do, we had better fear and learn more, and follow ‘that prophet’ that follows the Lord and leads the Lord’s people in the End-Time.

In my opinion according to Moses of old, and all the prophets whether New or Old

David Jay Jordan

2 Chronicles 20; 20 …….Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be
established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

[Ted]

David,

You wish that the discussion was not about four verses in Daniel. But the bare facts are that, without those four verses, you have no seven-year great tribulation. Further, the entire interpretation of Rev 11-13 changes when that premise disappears.

This means that our discussions are more relevant to the thread than yours. If your foundational premise is wrong, then everything built on it is also wrong. You have to fix the foundation before the house can stand. BTW, you might wish to consider Dan 7:25 as the source of your interpretive material in Rev 11-13. But you must also realize that Dan 2 is the primary source for all, and it DOES NOT ALLOW for a "reconstituted Roman Empire." Then, allowing scripture to interpret scripture, you must consider that "ten" is not an exact number (See Dan 1:20). You have a LOT of work to do.

Efta,
I am not a futurist in any way. There is no future "seven-year great tribulation." But there is great tribulation before Christ returns for the saints. We are in it now, with 160,000 Christians murdered annually for their faith. (See Voice of the Martyrs magazine) Further, there is no millennial kingdom on earth. It is in heaven. I discuss it at length in chapter 8 of my book I Want to be Left Behind.

The Bible gives us a sequence of future trends and events, but there is no future timeline. Sorry, David, your foundation is lacking. You have assumed things without checking scripture well enough.

Ted Noel

[John Reece]

Ted,


I am not a futurist in any way...

The Bible gives us a sequence of future trends and events...

:huh:

[David]

Ted,

As mentioned Daniel 9 talks about the Last 7 years and concerns all prophecy and co-relates exactly. Preterists use four verses mainly and then get the foundation wrong and put all things or almost all things in the past tense and hence are unaware of currrent events or future events and just hope and pray the Lord comes back sometime and they get resurrected and somehow things work out in the her and now in what they consider the Millinium.

This is a hard pill for most of them to swallow when they see America bombing the hell out of Iraq, when the Lord is supposed to be ruling and reigning here on earth in the here and now.

And so their ground work of four verses makes them negate all scriptures as I have said.

Read Daniel 9 or this timeline to the messiah from Daniel 9

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TimeProphecy.html

Thanks David

[Ted]

[David] As mentioned Daniel 9 talks about the Last 7 years and concerns all prophecy and co-relates exactly.

[Ted] It is quite clear from this statement that you have not read my other posts. Daniel 9 has no bearing on any specific timeline in the future, since the 70 weeks ENDED in AD34, and the destruction of Jerusalem came in exactly the manner described in Dan 9:26-27. Since you apply that prophecy incorrectly, you have an incorrect result.

I detailed that issue some time back in this thread. You made no effort to consider any biblical argument I made. All you have done is to make an unsupported assertion. If we are to take you seriously, you MUST apply some effort and scholarship to refuting the presentation I made. Otherwise, your arguments are as valuable as most political campaign promises.


[David] Preterists use four verses mainly and then get the foundation wrong and put all things or almost all things in the past tense and hence are unaware of currrent events or future events and just hope and pray the Lord comes back sometime and they get resurrected and somehow things work out in the her and now in what they consider the Millinium.

[Ted] While I am not a Preterist, I will not stand idly by when you make such an unsupported assertion. To say that the Preterists are wrong, you MUST apply good effort and scholarship.


John,

Please forgive the imprecision in language. When I said I was not a “Futurist,” I was using a short form I use in my book. The more complete statement is that I am not a “Dispensationalist/Futurist.” There are prophetic events yet to come. Please note that I am not a Preterist, either. One “full Preterist” (Hymenaean) called me a “partial Preterist,” although I do not believe that is fully accurate.

Perhaps the best description of my view is that I am historical premillennial. Unfortunately, that is not adequate, either. My best description is that I am a student of scripture. My website, http://www.bibleonly.org supplies far more material than I can put in this post.

Ted

[efta777]

From what I understand from your website, Ted, is that you lean towards the historicist view (Which I suppose is somewhat similar to Preterism, at least, closer than futurism). The reason I am not a historicist is that there are too many evidences for an actual historical fulfillment of many of the prophecies in the Bible, so I see many events as being literally fulfilled within Christ's generation. One thing I didn't quite understand from your website; do you place any importance at all on the events of A.D. 70?

[John Reece]

Ted,

An excellent response, for which I thank you.

I hope you stay with TWeb.

I look forward to reading more of your contributions.

Blessings,

John

[Ted]

Isaac,

In short, yes I do place importance on the events of AD 70.

Dan 9:24 establishes 490 years of probation for the Jews. 9:25 establishes the starting point of the probation, and by simple arithmetic, the end. The start is 457BC with the decree of Artaxerxes to "restore and build up Jerusalem (Ezra 7). The end is the covenant lawsuit against the Jews brought by Stephen (Acts 7).

It is very important that we see that the curse for failure to keep the covenant (parts of 9:26-27) CANNOT come until AFTER the covenant lawsuit has been prosecuted. The verdict must be rendered (Acts 7:55-56 shows Christ rising to announce the guilty verdict), then the penalty can be carried out. Just as the execution of a murderer comes some time after the conviction, this execution of judgment comes some time after the verdict. (The same pattern is seen in 2 Sam 12 with the covenant lawsuit against David in the Bathsheba incident. The child was born months later, then fell ill and died. Punishment was not immediate.)

I hope this helps.
Ted

[David]

Because the Preterists and there four verses which they say negate all prophecy of the future tend to always want to return to their four verses of misunderstanding, allow me to repost my intial thread topic, so that we can focus not on the misconceptions of preterists, which is a waste of time, but on this thread focus on the future and understanding all prophecy and all the prophets and their exactness to every detail that will be happenning in the future. For herein we can understand the present and realize it is not the Millinium and that Jesus is not ruling the Earth, but the devil and his ilk and his worldly countries are.

So again notice how I said, preterists should avoid this thread, and concentrate on their four verses elsewhere .....

From posting NUmber 1 .....

I would ask that Preterists or whatever they are called NOT respond in anyway, as I have zero patience with such a doctrine of nonsense. They can discuss their doctrine elsewhere I would assume, as there is plenty of room. for their negating of all prophecy. And I don;t want to seem rude by responding to them, nor evading their dumb questions that make zero sense and have sero credibility.


***************************

Which came from the entire intial posting .......




Hi and thanks for the invite, but I am not a student at a university just a student of the Lord now and a 'missionary' since university long long ago.

Anyway, my time is limited, but scripturially it says enquire whoin is worthy, and abide there til you go hence...and so let me see if there are students here.,,and those more noble than those in Thessalonicka.

((((Whew ....The icons to the left are annoying ...... and distracting.)))

And seeing I and we are in the real world, and a real horrendous war is about to be waged by America for her own greed and self-interests according to the Lord's Will in allowing her to bring the world to almost WW3 and then the Covenant of daniel..

So let's check out, Daniel's words which were confirmed by Jesus for he gives an exact and precise and concise and mathematical Timeline that is orderly and scripturial.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjo...eltimeline.html

and in words

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Daniel9.html

So the question is do you agree or disagree with these numnbers and these references. And what timeline do you have in comparison ?

I would ask that Preterists or whatever they are called NOT respond in anyway, as I have zero patience with such a doctrine of nonsense. They can discuss their doctrine elsewhere I would assume, as there is plenty of room. for their negating of all prophecy. And I don;t want to seem rude by responding to them, nor evading their dumb questions that make zero sense and have sero credibility.

If they had any reason, or logic or spirituality they would have a timeline and they absolutely can't because they are as disjointed as their theory. Nevertheless they can surely read this thread if they like.

Sorry all, time is of the essense and no time for me personnally to chat with people that don;t know the very basic principle of the Lord. If they don;t know, then they weren't meant to know. And so I would ask that only believers in prophecy respond here about specifics and time and direction and the scenario of real events that will be happenning AFTER the COVENANT is signed.

Thanks, you can obviously respond however you like, but if you want a different point of view or a confirming point of view of what you already know, do try and stay on topic concerning the future and its time frames according to the LORD.

Blessings to you if you are searching and learning

IHS

David

[Hitch]

I would ask that Preterists or whatever they are called NOT respond in anyway, as I have zero patience with such a doctrine of nonsense. They can discuss their doctrine elsewhere I would assume, as there is plenty of room. for their negating of all prophecy. And I don;t want to seem rude by responding to them, nor evading their dumb questions that make zero sense and have sero credibility.

Too bad Dave. So long as you continue with your gross overstatements and outright falsifications you're going to have trouble. But then you always were a problem child.

H

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 09:51 AM located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42948#post42948)
Hitch:

Too bad Dave. So long as you continue with your gross overstatements and outright falsifications you're going to have trouble. But then you always were a problem child.

H
Just imagine if people treated him the same way he treats everyone. If we operate by his own standard... we'd all just ignore him. Gosh, imagine that. :brow:

[efta777]

So do you see references to this prosecution of Israel in Matt. 24 or Revelation?

[Ted]

David,

Allow me to pose a question. If I have sold my old car, which has then been totalled, can I drive it?

By the same token, can a prophecy which was completely fulfilled 2,000 years ago predict events in the future?

Obviously, the answer to both is NO. Now, since the 70 weeks were COMPLETED in AD70, please explain to us how they have any bearing whatever on the future.

Unless you undertake this task, your words are of no value whatever. This difficulty has to be resolved before you are able to place the 70th week in the future. Until you are able to do that, you have no foundation for any timeline.

Now, I am NOT a Preterist. I am a student of scripture. Please address this issue.

Ted

[e4e]

Ted, I think the Abomination of desolation spoken of by the Prophet Daniel is not the destruction of the temple in AD 70. But an event far into the future. The 70 yr. were complet in aproxamately AD 34. Neather the destruction of the temple or the abomination of desalation are a part of the seventy years of Daniel. Such an evaluation is an error I think.

The 70 years are hustoricly complete.

The events surround the Abomination of Desolation did not occure at the destruction of the temple so are logically two seperate events.

The 70 weeks are complet and the destruction of the temple is complete leaving only the abomination of desolation to be completed.

How close are we to agreeing to this?

[Ted]

The abomination of desolation is not a single entity. Luke interprets Matthew's language as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies." But the term allows additional applications. The literal Hebrew from which this is drawn means "desolating sacrilege."

Without an extended discussion, I can't really expand this, and it doesn't materially affect the subject of the thread. Within the context of the thread, (Dan 9) all we have is "on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate." That is NOT the A/D directly. (You can make the application, but it is not direct from Dan 9.)

If we want to discuss the A/D, it would be better to start another thread.

Ted

[David]

Hitch, saying I am a problem child is deplorable and subjective and shows you are losing the debate and definitely past tense.

Ted, the Abomination of desolation is as follows as there aren;t many anti-Christs but One, not many temples but one, not many Jerusalem's but One, not many jesus's but One, and the AC will impiose not many Marks but One and there will be One religion and not many.

***************************

The Abomination of Desolation is an interactive computer


In my opinion according to scriptures and science and technology, the soon up-coming evil Abomination of Desolation will be an interactive computer, and it makes things desolate because with it all people around the world will be joined to their Beast in worship. And this is why they get their Seal or MARK to identify them and through which computers can trace exactly where each of them is at any given point in time. No one can fight the Beast or run from the Beast, especially when they are implanted with His microchip and sealed in heart and soul with their fornication with Him. They are ALL one and will reap the judgments of God for so choosing. And hence the trumpets of Revelations fall upon them as called down from heaven by our Two Witnesses.

O.K. so let's back track a little and see why it is reasonable and logical and scriptural to believe the Abomination of Desolation is an interactive computer. Is it possible today ? YES. Can they speak in any language with translations so fast as to be accurate and intelligble. YES. Does the Bible say the Abomination of Desolation can talk YES and can computers talk YES. But this computer knows the heart and mind of the A.C. and can simultaneously carry on a conversation with innumerable people all at once and keep his organization totally united in His Perfidity. Matter of fact with a camera attached the A.C. can also see if you literally BOW when he orders you to worship Him and the goyum must, or they die. For you must always remember that the A.C. will say He is Christ, and will say it is prophesied that he must rule with a rod of iron, and that every knee must bow before him, and they will if they have unwisely chosen to save their lives with His MARK or seal of damnation.

But where will they put this interactive computer ? In the Holy Place as Jesus said.

Mathew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

It not ought to be there, but there in the Holy Place of the Temple and area of 20 cubits by 10 cubits or in otherwords 30 feet by 15 feet, they can easily place a world wide computer system linked to the worshippers of the Beast worldwide. It's easily done and the spacing is easily possible.

A debatable question might be whether or not Jesus meant the Holy of Holies, behind the Veil in the Temple. This is where the false Ark will be placed by the Jews when they consecrate their 3rd temple on the Temple Mount. they will pretend to have the Ark, so will the A.C. remove this and put His computer in the 10 cubit by 10 cubit by 10 cubit space of the Holy of Holies or have it on the outside in the area called the Holy Place. This is questionable but is splitting hairs and areas because all we need to know is that it will happen and it will be interactive and the A,C, will be able to see his followers and no one will be able to trick him. he will know your face (See A.C. knows your Face posting). And via the computer chip , He will be able to pin point your every move worldwide. You can't run unless you obey the Lord and flee into the wilderness of Moab and Edom as directed by the Lord (See 2nd Exodus)

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31)

For as you can see the militarily strong and invincible A.C. will have his troops surrounding the Temple and they shall take away the sacrifices in the temple as He declares Himself GOD. But it takes one month for this set-up in the Temple to be installed. But in accordance with the A.C. scenario allowed by the Lord, the A.C. raises from the dead in a resurrection parallel to our real Jesus. This He uses or should I say the False Prophet uses to again convince the stupid world to believe in His Divinity. For again read the following from scriptures where the Abomination of Desolations is now called the Image of the Beast.

Rev 13:14-18 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he both causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his umber is Six hundred threescore and six.

Do you notice how the image of the Beast projected on a screen that is interactively connected up to His Spirit, can literally talk to people and order them into obediance. His image is right on the screen and it does talk and you will worship the image or DIE.

This is what is so abominable about this deception of Satan, but people get what they want and deserve. If they have sold their souls out for this present life and its materialism, they can only look forward to the further literal worship of Earthly Goods and their earthly Master. For all worship either Satan or the Lord, there are only Two Masters as Jesus said.So let's pray we reach the lost sheep of the house of spiritual Israel before this time comes and warn them of the Abomination of Desolation.

In my opinion according to all prophecies

David Jay Jordan

frim
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/AbominationofDesolation.html

[Ted]

[David] Ted, the Abomination of desolation is as follows as there aren;t many anti-Christs but One,
[Ted] NAS 1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.

[David] not many temples but one
[Ted] NAS Psalm 11:4 The LORD is in His holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.

[David] not many Jerusalem's but One
[Ted] Hebrews 12:22-24 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

It strikes me that you might do well to spend less time making baseless assertions, and more time in the Word of God.


[David]Does the Bible say the Abomination of Desolation can talk YES
[Ted] The term “abomination of desolation occurs in FOUR texts. Dan 11:31; 12:11, Matt 24:15, & Mark 13:14. Not one of them refers to speech. Now, if you are proposing that the image to the beast which is made to speak (Rev 13:15) is the abomination of desolation, the point is possible. But so far you have provided no biblical basis for that conclusion. Rather, you have boldly shouted out a conclusion. We have no biblical basis on which to evaluate it, since you have provided none. If you wish for us to take you seriously, then you should provide your biblical basis.


[David] But where will they put this interactive computer ? In the Holy Place as Jesus said.
[Ted] Hebrews 7:11-19 11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is witnessed of Him, "Thou art a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Notice what is said. Jesus is a better high priest. He can only be a priest if the law of priesthood (and the temple in general, since the argument continues that way) is changed. This change is permanent, since Jesus is immortal. The only temple that exists today is in heaven, and as far as God is concerned, that is the only legitimate temple for the rest of earth’s history.

As I said before, you need to spend more time in scripture.

[David] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31)
[Ted] David goes on to apply this as future. Unfortunately for his argument, this is ancient history. Curiously, virtually all Dispensationalist authors make it past history, but apply it to the wrong character. David stands very alone in this application.

[David] Do you notice how the image of the Beast projected on a screen that is interactively connected up to His Spirit, can literally talk to people and order them into obediance. His image is right on the screen and it does talk and you will worship the image or DIE.
[Ted] It is quite curious that you make an application that would be completely foreign to the Bible writers. Our concept of a visual image is completely anachronistic. An image to the beast is an idol. And it does not have to be a likeness. This whole section recalls Daniel 3. The best information about that event is that the image there was an obelisk.

[David] This is what is so abominable about this deception of Satan, but people get what they want and deserve. If they have sold their souls out for this present life and its materialism, they can only look forward to the further literal worship of Earthly Goods and their earthly Master. For all worship either Satan or the Lord, there are only Two Masters as Jesus said.So let's pray we reach the lost sheep of the house of spiritual Israel before this time comes and warn them of the Abomination of Desolation.
[Ted] I’m glad that we can agree about something.

[efta777]

Thanks David for that post, I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Thanks also to Ted for beating me to the punch.

I must note the one thing that to me was the funniest thing in the post:


But where will they put this interactive computer ? In the Holy Place as Jesus said.

David, when you went on to describe how this was possible, I got the mental image in my head and it literally made me LOL!!! Listen, I'm not saying here that anything is impossible with God, because it isn't, but this is just really funny to me:
Okay here's the mental image; after 2000 years of trying, the temple has FINALLY been rebuilt. The Jews are ecstatic that they finally got their place of worship back and can once again keep the whole law. All it took was a huge U.N. resolution which led to a long, bloody war in which the Palestinian nation was destroyed and the dome of the rock was replaced by the temple (Or however it would work, but you get the point). However, as it turns out, all the world leaders at the same time need a place to store this massive central computer system to connect the whole world and to eventually become the antichrist (Though to their credit they don't know this beforehand). "Where should we put it?" says one scientist. They're not sure. One suggests, "well, all we really need to do is build a secure facility anywhere in the world to store it in, after all, it will be so fast that it doesn't really matter where it's located, we just need to make sure security is tight." They all agree, except one, (Probably the representative from France), he says, "But why should we build a whole new facility when we could just use a pre-existant building! And if we're going to use a pre-existant building, why not use the Jewish Temple? After all, the U.N. gave it to them, we should have the right to take it back." No one agrees with this except the reps from Russia and Germany, but together they have enough clout to sway the vote so that in the end, the U.N. has no choice but to place the computer in the temple. And to be even MORE blasphemous, they decide to go all the way and put the computer in the Holiest place possible, the Holy of Holies.

Does anyone else see the absurdity of this proposal? Oh, and another logistical issue... David, you cannot possibly think this will happen very soon, as it presupposes that the temple is rebuilt and that a central computer will be built inside of it (Which probably couldn't happen right away), and that everyone in the world will have a computer with a camera attached to it, and that artificial intelligence will have taken gigantic leaps to "The Matrix" proportions. It doesn't work, but it is VERY, VERY, funny.:rofl:

[Woman]

Efta - :cheers:




:yipee: :rofl: :yipee: :rofl: :yipee: :rofl: :

[Hitch]

Does anyone else see the absurdity of this proposal?

That was the funniest part of your post E

[John Reece]

efta777,

:lol:

:thumb:

[Faramir]

Yesterday @ 11:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=47499#post47499)
efta777:

Thanks David for that post, I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Thanks also to Ted for beating me to the punch.

I must note the one thing that to me was the funniest thing in the post:



David, when you went on to describe how this was possible, I got the mental image in my head and it literally made me LOL!!! Listen, I'm not saying here that anything is impossible with God, because it isn't, but this is just really funny to me:
Okay here's the mental image; after 2000 years of trying, the temple has FINALLY been rebuilt. The Jews are ecstatic that they finally got their place of worship back and can once again keep the whole law. All it took was a huge U.N. resolution which led to a long, bloody war in which the Palestinian nation was destroyed and the dome of the rock was replaced by the temple (Or however it would work, but you get the point). However, as it turns out, all the world leaders at the same time need a place to store this massive central computer system to connect the whole world and to eventually become the antichrist (Though to their credit they don't know this beforehand). &quot;Where should we put it?&quot; says one scientist. They're not sure. One suggests, &quot;well, all we really need to do is build a secure facility anywhere in the world to store it in, after all, it will be so fast that it doesn't really matter where it's located, we just need to make sure security is tight.&quot; They all agree, except one, (Probably the representative from France), he says, &quot;But why should we build a whole new facility when we could just use a pre-existant building! And if we're going to use a pre-existant building, why not use the Jewish Temple? After all, the U.N. gave it to them, we should have the right to take it back.&quot; No one agrees with this except the reps from Russia and Germany, but together they have enough clout to sway the vote so that in the end, the U.N. has no choice but to place the computer in the temple. And to be even MORE blasphemous, they decide to go all the way and put the computer in the Holiest place possible, the Holy of Holies.

Does anyone else see the absurdity of this proposal? Oh, and another logistical issue... David, you cannot possibly think this will happen very soon, as it presupposes that the temple is rebuilt and that a central computer will be built inside of it (Which probably couldn't happen right away), and that everyone in the world will have a computer with a camera attached to it, and that artificial intelligence will have taken gigantic leaps to &quot;The Matrix&quot; proportions. It doesn't work, but it is VERY, VERY, funny.:rofl:

Congrats efta, you just made the Dean's List

:thumb:

Of course, if you made this into a fictional novel, you could make a fortune. :yipee:

[David]

Effta,

I find your remarks disgusting and debasing and worse, as I have always been apalled by Laughing out loud and Rolling on the Floor Laughing abbrevaitions... of LOL and ROFL.

I find these true proofs that you have no class whatsoever. please apologise immediately.for the following

""""Thanks David for that post, I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Thanks also to Ted for beating me to the punch. """""


For I repeat over and over again, this thread was for ony futurists and not past tense preterists, that negate all prophecy. read the original posting once again, and do the math which none of you are capable of doing so far..

And do apologise immediately for such disgusting demeaning remarks

In His Continued Service

David

[efta777]

David,
I apoligize for bringing the thread off topic. It's been going that way for a while and I wish you'd mentioned something earlier. As for my post, I stand by it. I'm sorry if it hurt you, but I was telling the truth. I did LITERALLY laugh when I read your post, and I'm sorry if I offend you by saying this, but I must stress the impossibility of your argument. I have shown this thread to futurists and they have thought it was as absurd as I do. I wish you could see how illogical it is, but alas, you cannot. So go ahead and bring the thread back onto topic. I forgot, I promised myself a while ago that I would not argue anymore with you until you began accurately using scripture.

[Ted]

Today @ 06:27 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=48340#post48340)
David:

For I repeat over and over again, this thread was for ony futurists and not past tense preterists, that negate all prophecy. read the original posting once again, and do the math which none of you are capable of doing so far..


While you may wish to exclude those who disagree, David, the very nature of this type of board makes it impossible to do so. Further, disagreement is the point of the board. When we examine scripture, we see things from different angles. The process of disagreement causes us to refine our understanding to bring it closer to the biblical intent.

With that said, it is quite clear that you have been completely uninterested in exploring scripture. When the foundations of your premise have been challenged, you have simply ignored the biblical arguments. That is not scholarship. It is shouting.

God calls on us to be students (2 Tim 2:15). Those of us who raise difficulties based on scripture are following the command. You may have been a student at one time, but it is clear that in this forum, you are not. The conclusion to be drawn from these observed facts will be left to the reader.

It appears that you have ignored my comments because you think that I am a Preterist. Please allow me to assure you that I am NOT A PRETERIST. The fact that some Bible prophecy has been fulfilled does not mean that I believe that most or all has been fulfilled. My basic arguments with your position revolve around your incorrect understanding of Israel and Daniel 9. The argument about the "7-year great tribulation" and its related issues is based on those two items.

If you are willing to open your mind, you will discover that there is a vast body of scholarship that is neither Preterist nor Dispensationalist. It is called Historicist. While I am not a pure Historicist, my basic roots are there. In essence, I believe that prophecy has a continual path of historical fulfillments, with an eventual future denouement in the form of the parousia. That great event will end the present age, and be part of the final removal of sin from the earth. In this, I have some resemblance to both Dispensationalism and Preterism (non-Hymenaean), but also differences.

Let us dialog about these issues. You will not understand until you allow yourself to understand. I know from experience that this works. I have changed views in response to such dialogs. Allow yourself to follow God's command.

In His Service,
Ted

[David]

Ted,

You speak as did the so-called accusers of Job, for they spoke words without meaning...they spoke in seeming scripture but it didn't apply.

So all I can say to you is get real.

There is a real war out there, there is real plagues coming up, there is a real world oRDER coming and No Jesus is not ruling and reigning in His Millinium.

But you are right, Preterists are one demensional and you can;t get thru to them because it is a pretty heavy indocrination....which is really really strange as it is based on only one Chapter of the Bible.

But then again I must support their right to believe what they want as that's called religious freedom, and we all must give it to get it, even though the system will be taking that away from us.

Whoops I can;t say that because you think we are in heaven and all is well and nothing will happen to us, and there is peace and safety and no tribulation is coming as all bads things are past tense and all prophecy has been fulfilled and we are just passsing time until Jesus takes us.

Sorry Ted, get real in the real world and the real spiritual world.

Don;t you read the papers and don;t you know the condition of the world and current events..... having eyes to see why don;t you see reality.

IMO

David

[bar Jonah]

David, as firmly as I disagree with what I believe to be the nonsense of Preterism... you are the one who is buried under a mountain of heavy indoctrination.

[efta777]

David, I have come to only one conclusion based on your continued and willful misrepresentation of preterism.

You are a liar. Period. You know the truth, yet you still lie. You have lost all credibility in this forum.

[David]

I hate forums where people are able to call others 'Liars' and get away with it without chastisement from the moderaters. Just because they lose a debate they start name calling. Horrible Atrocious and shameful....


SEE below


03-31-2003 @ 08:27 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49202#post49202)
efta777:

David, I have come to only one conclusion based on your continued and willful misrepresentation of preterism.

You are a liar. Period. You know the truth, yet you still lie. You have lost all credibility in this forum.

[efta777]

But you are right, Preterists are one demensional and you can;t get thru to them because it is a pretty heavy indocrination....which is really really strange as it is based on only one Chapter of the Bible.

We've consistantly shown you plenty of other passages that preterism is also based on, yet you are still saying this, you know the truth, yet you speak otherwise. This, my friend is lying.


Whoops I can;t say that because you think we are in heaven and all is well and nothing will happen to us, and there is peace and safety and no tribulation is coming as all bads things are past tense and all prophecy has been fulfilled and we are just passsing time until Jesus takes us.

Neither preterists nor historicists believe this to be true, and you know that because we've told you plenty of times. Once again, an example of lying.

David, I know my words sounded strong in my last post, but I felt like you pushed me to it. You would not respond to any cordial discussion about preterism, but rather threw around false accusations. I hope the truth of my statement can be seen by others as well.

[Ted]

David,

It has come time for you to make a decision. Will you engage in scriptural discussion, or will you throw around wild assertions? It's your choice.

Those of us who have commented would much prefer to have you show each point of argument from scripture. That way we can all become better informed. Some of us may even learn a thing or two.

On the other hand, wildly asserting certain things as "truth" without taking the time to do the explanatory work needed presents you as a fool. You are a fool if you think that the mere declaration of truth makes it so. Jesus didn't do it that way. He constantly said things such as "Is it not written in the Law..." He showed his position from scripture.

We would like to see you as a thoughtful student of scripture. But you are making that impossible. Please reconsider your approach. Deal carefully with points of scripture. Stay focused. Various challenges have been raised. Deal with them.

Failure to act as a responsible student will eliminate the possibility for us to consider your position. And I hope that that is not your goal. By participating you are telling us that you want us to adopt your belief. So show us WHY you believe it.

Ted

[Faramir]

efta 777 stated the following:


03-31-2003 @ 03:27 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=49202#post49202)
efta777:

David, I have come to only one conclusion based on your continued and willful misrepresentation of preterism.

You are a liar. Period. You know the truth, yet you still lie. You have lost all credibility in this forum.

To which David replied:


Yesterday @ 10:31 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=50658#post50658)
David:

I hate forums where people are able to call others 'Liars' and get away with it without chastisement from the moderaters. Just because they lose a debate they start name calling. Horrible Atrocious and shameful....

The rules of this forum state:


We recognize that the nature of spirited debate may include the use of satire, humor, and strong statements of position; however, gratuitous name-calling, bullying, stalking, abusive/threatening language, or outright rudeness will not be tolerated. If a strong and potentially inflammatory characterization is used, it must be backed up as to the truth of the matter. Empbhasis Added

When I read efta's quote, I though he made a good show of backing up his accusation. He correctly stated that you continue to misrepresent the preterist position, and that misrepresentation appears to be willful. Which efta clarified here:


Yesterday @ 11:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=50680#post50680)
efta777:

We've consistantly shown you plenty of other passages that preterism is also based on, yet you are still saying this, you know the truth, yet you speak otherwise. This, my friend is lying.

Neither preterists nor historicists believe this to be true, and you know that because we've told you plenty of times. Once again, an example of lying.

David, I know my words sounded strong in my last post, but I felt like you pushed me to it. You would not respond to any cordial discussion about preterism, but rather threw around false accusations. I hope the truth of my statement can be seen by others as well.

I agree with efta that you have continued to misrepresent the preterist position, and that you have been corrected on this on several occasions (at least twice by me alone), yet you continue to present the same false picutre of the preterist position.

I can think of a few reasons why you would do this, one of them is, as efta alleged, willful dishonesty. I can think of a few other reason, but none of them are very complementary to you David.

Here are all the reasons I can think of why you continue to misrepresent the preteris position, even though you should know better because you have been shown otherwise:

1. As efta said, you intintionally mistate the preterist position.

2. You have read the responses of the preterist, correctling your misconception of their position, and just did not understand it.

3. You have not read read the post explaining the preterist position, and continue to post your misconceptions out of willful ignorance.

To sum up you are either willfully dishonest, you have a serious reading comprehension problem, or you are willfully ignorant of the position that you continue to attack. None of which is very flatering.

I think that efta's accusation is somewhat well founded. However David, you have the opportunity to defend yourself. If you can give a rational explaination of why you continue to misrepresent the preterist position despite being told on numerous occasions that you were in fact misrepresenting this position, then I will delete efta's post, and personally apologize to you.

To efta:

I will not delete your post accusing David of lying (at least until David can show that he was not in fact intentionally lying). However, here is a suggestion (as a fellow postere not a moderator). When making accusations such as this state it in such a way as to give the accused a chance to defend themselves. Like:

"Your continued, willful misrepresentation of the preterist position, looks to me like an intentional lie. If I am mistaken, then please show me why."

This gives an opportunity to clear up any miscommunications before a firm accusation is made, and gives the accused a chance to defend their position (and makes it less likely that a moderator will have to get involved :brow:).


On another issue.

The rules at tweb state:


Please respect the wishes of the thread starter to keep a thread on topic when requested and do not post using all caps, this includes profiles, signatures and screen names. Debates (points for your position) made via weblink is not allowed. Weblinks may be used only as a point of reference or for further information regarding your position.Emphasis added

As starter of this thread David has the right to request that it stay on the topic of his original post. David requested from the beginning that he was not interested in hearing from us "disjointed" preterist. I ask that we respect that request.

However, David, if you truely want this thread to stay on topic, then do not respond to preterist, and do not attack the preterist position, of which you clearly have little understanding.

In other words David, if you want the subject of preterism to be absent from this thread, fine. That is your right as thread starter. However, if you attack the preterist position and/or grossly misrepresent the preterist position, then you are the one who responsible for bringing the thread "off topic" and in that case preterist can certainly defend their position.

I ask that all preterist refrain from responding to this thread, unless David brings up the subject of preterism first.

I ask that David refrain from attacking or bringing up the preterist position unless he wants to open up this thread to preterist participation.

Thanks

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 11:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51122#post51122)
Faramir:
1. As efta said, you intintionally mistate the preterist position.

2. You have read the responses of the preterist, correctling your misconception of their position, and just did not understand it.

3. You have not read read the post explaining the preterist position, and continue to post your misconceptions out of willful ignorance.

To sum up you are either willfully dishonest, you have a serious reading comprehension problem, or you are willfully ignorant of the position that you continue to attack. None of which is very flatering.
Not only do I strongly disagree with Preterism, but I am a futurist like you, David. And yet, I wholeheartedly agree with Faramir's assessment of your behavior.

[efta777]

I will not delete your post accusing David of lying (at least until David can show that he was not in fact intentionally lying). However, here is a suggestion (as a fellow postere not a moderator). When making accusations such as this state it in such a way as to give the accused a chance to defend themselves. Like:
"Your continued, willful misrepresentation of the preterist position, looks to me like an intentional lie. If I am mistaken, then please show me why."


Faramir,
I completely agree with you. I was trying to think of a way to say it that wouldn't be completely insulting, but would still convey the seriousness of the matter, and your idea is a good one.

David,
Faramir phrased it much better than I did, so I apologize, though I stand by what I said. Are you ready to respond to this yet?

[efta777]

Oh, and another thing,


As starter of this thread David has the right to request that it stay on the topic of his original post. David requested from the beginning that he was not interested in hearing from us "disjointed" preterist. I ask that we respect that request.

When I joined this thread I made a note that I would try not to respond as a preterist, but as a student of scripture, and that has been my intention all along, and I believe for the most part I have stuck with that (With a few exceptions, for which I am sorry). How is my preterism showing itself? By asking David to back up his assertions with scripture? For showing him where he has made false assumptions based on incorrect exegesis? All of us, preterists like myself, historicists like Ted and Futurists like RightIdea have attempted to show David where he is wrong, and I don't think the thread has actually gone too far off track.

[David]

If you have a scripture based question just ask it. Straight forward and simple, but I can't lead prove anything to you, you have to join up the dots yourself and understand for yourself.

All my scriptures for all the lengths of time are below the timelines and included in the daniel timeline...

So be specific and ask questions.

They are easy to answer because the timeline is straight forward and exact.

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

So fire away about the future and leave your past behind where it belongs.

Ready begin ....

One question one answer .... and do make it mathematical and exact .... and an HONEST QUESTION

David

[bar Jonah]

We've asked one scripture question after another, and you have willfully ignored every single one of them. With longsuffering, we ask over and over for scripture to back up your views, and you willfully refuse.

I am a pre-trib futurist like you... and I, for one, am done with you.

[Faramir]

Yesterday @ 11:06 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51748#post51748)
efta777:

Oh, and another thing,



When I joined this thread I made a note that I would try not to respond as a preterist, but as a student of scripture, and that has been my intention all along, and I believe for the most part I have stuck with that (With a few exceptions, for which I am sorry). How is my preterism showing itself? By asking David to back up his assertions with scripture? For showing him where he has made false assumptions based on incorrect exegesis? All of us, preterists like myself, historicists like Ted and Futurists like RightIdea have attempted to show David where he is wrong, and I don't think the thread has actually gone too far off track.

Excelent point efta. In fact I think that most (maybe all, I'll have to check) post on this thread by preterist have either been 1) attempts to get David to clarify his position biblically OR 2) attempts to correct Davids continued misrepresentaion of the preterist position. So I will modify my request:

I ask that all posters on this thread (regardless of eschatolgical position) refrain from discussing the topic of preterism unless the topic is first brought up by David, the starter of this thread.

[Faramir]

Today @ 12:16 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=51797#post51797)
David:

If you have a scripture based question just ask it. Straight forward and simple, but I can't lead prove anything to you, you have to join up the dots yourself and understand for yourself.

All my scriptures for all the lengths of time are below the timelines and included in the daniel timeline...

So be specific and ask questions.

They are easy to answer because the timeline is straight forward and exact.

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

So fire away about the future and leave your past behind where it belongs.

Ready begin ....

One question one answer .... and do make it mathematical and exact .... and an HONEST QUESTION

David

OK David I'll bite.

As far as making a question mathematical, I am not sure what you mean by that so forgive me if I do not comply with that part of your request. If you could give an example of a mathmatical question (as it relates to eschatology, not 2+2=? :brow:) it would be most helpful.

Believe it or not, all I want to do is try to understand your position. My questions have always been honest, at least in the sense that I want to understand your position (not that I think you will change my mind). But if you want to change my mind, you have to first get me to understand your position. Right?

You have no interest in understanding my position, fine. I will not bring it up. However, if you bring it up and insult it and/or misrepresent it, I will defend it. Fair enough?

So here is my honest (but not mathmatical) question:


Pleae provie a Biblical references to back up the fact that in the middle of the 70th week a peace agreement will be signed between ten nations.

Now this question has been asked twice before. First by efta here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=30345#post30345

and later by me here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=31775#post31775

And yes, I have read what your timeline has to say about this, but I do not see how you arrived at your position based on the scriptures given.

In your time line you give the following verses to support your position that in the middle of the 70th week a peace agreement will be signed between ten nations:


Daniel 9:27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.

Where are the 10 nations? Where is the peace agreement (or why is the "firm covenant" a peace agreement?)


Daniel 11:22 "The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant.
23 "After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception, and he will go up and gain power with a small force of people.
24 "In a time of tranquility he will enter the richest parts of the realm, and he will accomplish what his fathers never did, nor his ancestors; he will distribute plunder, booty and possessions among them, and he will devise his schemes against strongholds, but only for a time.
25 "He will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South with a large army; so the king of the South will mobilize an extremely large and mighty army for war; but he will not stand, for schemes will be devised against him.
26 "Those who eat his choice food will destroy him, and his army will overflow, but many will fall down slain.
27 "As for both kings, their hearts will be intent on (5) evil, and they will speak lies to each other at the same table; but it will not succeed, for the end is still to come at the appointed time.
28 "Then he will return to his land with much plunder; but his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and then return to his own land.
29 "At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before.
30 "For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.
31 "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.
32 "By smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action.


Why do you tie this passage with Daniel 9:27. Even most furturist believe that this passage is in reference to the tyrant Antiochus Epiphanes:


Nearly all futurists agreed in Daniel 11:21-32 describe the career of a vile person, Antiochus Epiphanes (175 BC to 164 BC). He came to the throne by conspiracy (v. 21), made several crusades into Egypt (vv. 24-27), then turned his hatred toward the Jews (v. 28). After that, he was disheartened by the Romans and then he came back to attack the Jews with his army (vv. 29-30). He was the one who caused the regular sacrifices to cease, polluted the altar by offering up a swine on it, and erected in the holy place a statue of Zeus which is the abomination of desolation (v. 31). He also forced the Jews to give up their worship of God and to stop circumcising their children. Those who refused were killed, strangled, or crucified, with their children hung from their necks (Josephus' Ant. XII).


Found here. (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/hochner-donald_p_06.html)

You see David, I have read the passages that you site, and come away with a completely different position than yours. You need to explain why you believe that these scriptures fit your position. Not just supply a scripture reference.

I am a patient man David, but not infinitely so. You have been asked this question twice before. I honestly want to understand your position so I ask it yet again. I really would like an honest answer this time. However, this will be the last time I ask.

[Ted]

David,

I will also ask a question. Daniel 9:27 begins with "And he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one week..." (lit Hebrew) This passage speaks of strenghthening an existing covenant, not the creation of a new covenant.

The Dispensationalist interpretation requires the Antichrist to make a peace treaty with the Jews at the 3 1/2 year point of the 7 years of the great tribulation. The only text used to support this idea is Daniel 9:27.

Given these facts, how can you derive a new covenant from Daniel 9:27 when the text in Hebrew clearly says "strengthen an existing covenant?"

Ted

[bar Jonah]

Yesterday @ 05:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=#post)
Ted:
David,

I will also ask a question. Daniel 9:27 begins with "And he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one week..." (lit Hebrew) This passage speaks of strenghthening an existing covenant, not the creation of a new covenant.

The Dispensationalist interpretation requires the Antichrist to make a peace treaty with the Jews at the 3 1/2 year point of the 7 years of the great tribulation. The only text used to support this idea is Daniel 9:27.

Given these facts, how can you derive a new covenant from Daniel 9:27 when the text in Hebrew clearly says "strengthen an existing covenant?"

Ted
Be careful of a straw man, Ted. Only some dispies believe that.

[David]

Right Idea,

A mathematical question relates to the exact precise mathematical way the days of Daniel match exactly in both Daniel and revelation and make total sense.
The End Time is called a consummation and as any drama student knows the climax is a build-up to the Final curtain.

The Lord knows how to consumate HISstory together into one at the end and it unfolds more and more, as the days get darker and darker.

So again I refer you to the timeline and all the confirming verses that I have repeated over and over again and again and not one person has responded to the mathematical exact timeline of the number fo days.

Remember the trib is 42 minths, 1260 days, times, time and dividing of times, how can you miss all these verses that say exactly the same thing EXACTLY.

How can you miss it, and talk about a minisucle judgment in the past with a little anti-christ ruler of the past.

The Covenant will be signed by ten countries which is repeated over and over again in both Daniel 2 and revelation. How many times have I got to say this. Have you never evere read revelation, did it go right over your head.

Ten countries, ten toes, ten kingdoms..... repetition repetition so that no one has an excuse not to comprehend..it is so blatant.


Yes, I have zero patience with people that have read and yet are blind to what is so OBVIOUS and written so many times.

A newcomer would see it right off and would connect them up without any help whatsoever.

The Daniel Covenant will probably be signed by an Arab and Jewish representative and the Big 8 after the next war... at least I hope so as I pray it starts soon, and this insane war is a good way for the Lord to bring about a military, religious Peace Pact, and please don;t say prove it prove it prove it.

Prove it yourselves and read it yourselves...

It's not my job to hand spoon fed you. I have over 140 postings on every aspect if you want answers and more information

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Prophecymysteries.html

There's four different Boards dealing with every aspect so study then ask.

But again as mentioned the topic was the exact mathematical days of Daniel and the way it fits together exactly mathematically from the Covenant to the Trib, to Wrath, to the Battle of Armeggeddon onto the start of the Millinium when jesus really RULES the EARTH.

But not now ..... get real some or all. Jesus is not ruling on earth, and these heathen rulers and hardly godly.

David

[Ted]

David,

Once again, you neglect to answer my posts. I asked you a very specific question. And again you decline to answer. I must wonder why this is so. Are you unable, and therefore simply treat my questions as non-existent? Please try to answer. Your entire thesis of a new treaty depends on the Hebrew allowing it. Yet the Hebrew speaks of a pre-existing covenant.

But allow me to extend the question to include one you have just raised. Daniel 2 speaks of the progression of kingdoms. The fourth one is described as partly strong and partly weak. This is not at some re-constituted phase. Rather, the description is of the breakup of Rome. But of more interest is verse 44. There we find that God's eternal kingdom is set up "in the days of those kings." That is, Rome breaks up and never becomes unified again. Please explain how you can have a tight ten-kingdom confederation in this divine revelation.

BTW, note that "ten" in Daniel 2 needs to be interpreted by reading Daniel 1:20.

RI, the reason I comment as I do about the peace treaty is that David's branch of Dispensationalism clearly relies on the peace treaty theory. I am well aware of many variations on the theme.

Ted

[David]

Once again Ted, I am amazed that people need to be spoon fed and need every T crossed. ...and then when they read 1000 say it doesn;t mean a thousand and when they read ten they say it doesn;t mean ten , even though the good Lord gave them ten toes to reaffirm the fact that ten toes means ten... Amazing.

But let's spoon fed you a little on your question ...... because you haven;t poeced together the whole picture because you are hung up on a few words..... hopefully it won;t be straining at a gnat and swallowing a preterist camel.

And so my response to your query which I will only go over once, as the question is the mathematical beauty of Daniel and the exact numbers and not preterist stumbling blocks..... over the same verses over and over again.

**************************

I will also ask a question. Daniel 9:27 begins with "And he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one week..." -lit Hebrew- (No week is Hebrew for shubuah meaning seven because the Lord literally made the world and everything in literally seven days, and not seven billion years...One week is the Last 7 years before the Lord's Return) This passage speaks of strenghthening an existing covenant, (Absolutely Not it never said that, and so if you understand that the AC promisedby all prophets shall come and will have military might and political might, then you realize that the Covenant of Daniel that allows the building of the 3rd temple which involves political and military presense and agreement absolutely shows that th is Covenant of ten countries that starts the Last 7 years is a new Covenant, How crazy to think it is an old covenant resigned by ten new countries..Crazy doctrine. IOts the solution to the Mid east Crisis, have you not read the papers and do not you know current events ?) not the creation of a new covenant.

The Dispensationalist interpretation requires the Antichrist to make a peace treaty with the Jews at the 3 1/2 year point of the 7 years of the great tribulation. The only text used to support this idea is Daniel 9:27. (Absolutelyu Not, the AC doesn;t sign the Covenant it is made by the Prince of the Covenant and the AC is against it because it doesn;t work and doesn;t stop America's violence read Daniel 11. And forget the Jews, the nation of Israel they have little to do with the End Time as they accept the AC as do all other religions....))

Given these facts, how can you derive a new covenant from Daniel 9:27 when the text in Hebrew clearly says "strengthen an existing covenant?" (Those are delusions not facts Ted.... If you have a Covenant and a bond with the Lord you would understand what the Lord is doing in the End Time and how the world is uniting, but we are against the world and not party to their nationalism and fears)

Hope you can make this step of faith, and now back to the topic of the exact Daniel timeline which is reinforced by all Daniel and All revelation over and over and over again and is strengthened not by one verse but all prophetic verses.

David

[Faramir]

Today @ 10:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:

Once again Ted, I am amazed that people need to be spoon fed and need every T crossed. ...and then when they read 1000 say it doesn;t mean a thousand and when they read ten they say it doesn;t mean ten , even though the good Lord gave them ten toes to reaffirm the fact that ten toes means ten... Amazing.

Amazing that you claim it is so simple and clear from the scriptures but as of yet have failed to give an analysis of why the scripture you site mean what it says it means. I gave you an example of how to do this on another thread here. (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=47024#post47024)

All you have done so far is assert your position at give a site. You have not once given an explanation as to why the scripture means what you say it does.

You say it is clear, but no one else on this board sees it. You say that this is our problem. If you are the only one who sees this "clear" meaning, then maybe the problem lies elsewhere. :hrm:


Today @ 10:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:

But let's spoon fed you a little on your question ...... because you haven;t poeced together the whole picture because you are hung up on a few words..... hopefully it won;t be straining at a gnat and swallowing a preterist camel.

Let me give you a litte background David. I was a traditional dispensationalist futurist for most of my life. I even taught futurist eschatology in Sunday School :argh:. However, I was never able to "conect the dots" as you say. I really wanted to understand exactly how the scripture matched up with the theology.

After much study and much prayer, I came to the conclusion that there was no way to connect the dots, and that traditional dispensational futurism was mostly conjecture on scripture.

At that point, I still considered myself a futurist. I researched other furturist theologies, and was not satisified with any of theam. During this period of searching, I, quite by accident, stumbled across preterism. My first thought was, "this is totally absurd". So I began to research article that refuted preterism. To my surprise (and initially dismay), I found these articles less than convincing. I eventually (and very reluctantly) embraced the preterist theology of eschatology. IMHO it is by far the clearest, simplest, and most consistant eschatological system.

So, if you want to have any hope of convencing me otherwise, I need to be "spoon fed" as you say. I have tried, earnestly, to understand the futurist theology. Because of this, I have serious doubts that you can provide a detailed analysis like I suggested aabove. (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=47024#post47024)


Today @ 10:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:

And so my response to your query which I will only go over once, as the question is the mathematical beauty of Daniel and the exact numbers and not preterist stumbling blocks..... over the same verses over and over again.

Since you continue to insult the preterist position, I assume that you want preterist participation in this thread.

For someone so sure of their position, you seem very reluctant (or unable) to provide a simple analyis of your position.



Today @ 10:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:

I will also ask a question. Daniel 9:27 begins with &quot;And he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one week...&quot; -lit Hebrew- (No week is Hebrew for shubuah meaning seven because the Lord literally made the world and everything in literally seven days, and not seven billion years...One week is the Last 7 years before the Lord's Return) This passage speaks of strenghthening an existing covenant, (Absolutely Not it never said that, and so if you understand that the AC promisedby all prophets shall come and will have military might and political might, then you realize that the Covenant of Daniel that allows the building of the 3rd temple which involves political and military presense and agreement absolutely shows that th is Covenant of ten countries that starts the Last 7 years is a new Covenant, How crazy to think it is an old covenant resigned by ten new countries..Crazy doctrine. IOts the solution to the Mid east Crisis, have you not read the papers and do not you know current events ?) not the creation of a new covenant.

Again, you provide a site then assert your position, without any explanation. You have not (and IMO can not) provide and simple explanaiton of why the scriptures you site mean what you say they mean. I have no problem doing that with preterism. Is that because preterism is actually the simple, obvious, and correct eschatological system? I think yes.


Today @ 10:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:

The Dispensationalist interpretation requires the Antichrist to make a peace treaty with the Jews at the 3 1/2 year point of the 7 years of the great tribulation. The only text used to support this idea is Daniel 9:27. (Absolutelyu Not, the AC doesn;t sign the Covenant it is made by the Prince of the Covenant and the AC is against it because it doesn;t work and doesn;t stop America's violence read Daniel 11. And forget the Jews, the nation of Israel they have little to do with the End Time as they accept the AC as do all other religions....))

Given these facts, how can you derive a new covenant from Daniel 9:27 when the text in Hebrew clearly says &quot;strengthen an existing covenant?&quot; (Those are delusions not facts Ted.... If you have a Covenant and a bond with the Lord you would understand what the Lord is doing in the End Time and how the world is uniting, but we are against the world and not party to their nationalism and fears)

Yet more assertions without any explanation given.


Today @ 10:29 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:

Hope you can make this step of faith, and now back to the topic of the exact Daniel timeline which is reinforced by all Daniel and All revelation over and over and over again and is strengthened not by one verse but all prophetic verses.

David

More assertions, more missing explanations.

I have given up hope on ever recieving an explanation from you as to why the scriptures you site, support your position.

However, I will continue to expose your lack of sound argument to support your position. And I will continue to defend my position against your attacks.

:yipee:

[John Reece]

Thanks, Faramir, for so many clarifying posts.

:thumb:

[efta777]

David,
I've realized your problem. It seems that to create your eschatology you do something like throw a bunch of pieces of paper with verses on them into a hat, then draw them out randomly and pretend that they go together. I'm going to put together a theory about Jesus based on this methodology:

2 Samuel 17:12
We will come against him wherever he happens to be found. We will descnd on him like the dew falls ont he ground. Neither he nor any of the men who are with him will be spared alive - Not one of them!

I believe that this verse is talking about Jesus and his disciples, though it is figurative, meaning that upon Jesus' death they will be dispersed, not necissarily killed (Except for Jesus himself).

2 Chronicles 28:5
The Lord his God handed him over to the king of Syria. The Syrians defeated him and deported many captives to Damascus. He was also handed over to the king of Israel, who thoroughly defeated him.

Note that he is handed to the king of ISRAEL. This MUST be Christ, because he was killed by the Jews! The evidence could not be clearer! You'd have to be blind not to see that both of these verses directly foretell the EXACT events of the passion!
Repent, those of you who cannot read these scriptures as they were meant, and pray that God can give you clarity.

And... scene.

[bar Jonah]

David, when even some of your fellow dispensational futurists agree you haven't backed up your case in the least bit... that's pretty telling.

[Woman]

David,

As a relative outsider (for whom it is sometimes easier to comprehend something as we arrive without specific beliefs) I have tried with patience and focus to glean the ideas you profer. After much reading and effort I have come to the following conclusion:

Some people see things others do not because they are great visionaries. Some people see things others do not because there is nothing there. Finding patterns where none exist, believing that there are hidden meanings which others cannot see and being convinced that one is somehow privy to "inside" knowledge may be symptomatic of pathology.

With respect and compassion, Sir - I think you're a nut!

[Ted]

Yesterday @ 03:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:

when they read ten they say it doesn;t mean ten , even though the good Lord gave them ten toes to reaffirm the fact that ten toes means ten... Amazing.



David, I fear you are so busy reacting that you are not thinking. The point about "ten" is that Daniel says that the Hebrew worthies were found "ten times" smarter than their cohorts. Now, if you can walk, chew gum, and not make messes around the house, there is no one in the world "ten times smarter than you are." The fact that Daniel has used the word this way clues us to the fact that it is a round number, rather than an exact one. And that is the point you were so rashly eager to ignore.



Yesterday @ 03:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:
... you are hung up on a few words..... hopefully it won;t be straining at a gnat and swallowing a preterist camel.

David, it is becoming quite clear that you cannot read. I explicitly stated earlier that I am not a Preterist.

As for single words, perhaps you should pay attention to them. In particular, the Hebrew says specific things that are lost in some translations. I was trying to point out that those words specifically contradict things you are trying to say.


Yesterday @ 03:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:
I will also ask a question. Daniel 9:27 begins with &quot;And he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one week...&quot; -lit Hebrew- (No week is Hebrew for shubuah meaning seven because the Lord literally made the world and everything in literally seven days, and not seven billion years...One week is the Last 7 years before the Lord's Return)

David, you would be funny if this wasn't serious. If you had read my point, it wasn't about the word shabua. And, BTW, you are dead wrong. It is the Hebrew word for a week. It is used 13 times outside Dan 9. Exodus 34:22 should illustrate. There we find the prescription for the "Feast of Weeks" or Pentecost. It is not the "Feast of Sevens." The word means week. BTW, none of us ever argue that the interpretive use in Dan 9 doesn't mean a week of years. So the net result is that we agree on its meaning in prophecy. It's just that many sloppy theologians have misread the Hebrew.



Yesterday @ 03:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59110#post59110)
David:This passage speaks of strenghthening an existing covenant, (Absolutely Not it never said that, and so if you understand that the AC promisedby all prophets shall come and will have military might and political might, then you realize that the Covenant of Daniel that allows the building of the 3rd temple which involves political and military presense and agreement absolutely shows that th is Covenant of ten countries that starts the Last 7 years is a new Covenant, How crazy to think it is an old covenant resigned by ten new countries..Crazy doctrine. IOts the solution to the Mid east Crisis, have you not read the papers and do not you know current events ?) not the creation of a new covenant.

That has to be the most convoluted statement in recent history. My point, and that strongly made by the Hebrew is that the "Prince who is to come (in 69 weeks!)", that is, the Messiah, will STRENGTHEN AN EXISTING COVENANT. This is explicit in the Hebrew. The verb higbir in this usage means "strengthen." You cannot strengthen something that does not already exist. Therefore, there is NO NEW COVENANT.

As for the new temple, please note that Ezekiel explicitly describes Levitical priests and sacrifices. But Hebrews EXPLICITLY states that the law of the temple and priesthood was PERMANENTLY CHANGED to allow Jesus to be a priest. This means that there will not be a new temple in the divine economy. The heavenly temple is the last one, and it is in service NOW.

The point of Ezekiel's vision was that he was to show the "plan" to the rebellious people so that they should be ashamed and return to God (Ezek 43:10-11). It was never intended to be built.

Each little building block matches each other. But you cannot wildly throw them together and hope to have something that resembles what God intended.

Please accept the Hebrew as God inspired it. Deal with the issues I have raised. Do not deny the facts. If you cannot do this, then there remains no point in talking with you.

Ted

[David]

Woman,

Name calling shows you have lost any validity in trying to be rational and haven;t the brains that the Good Lord gave you to use or just aren;t using what you have been given.

As anyone with Grade 5 mahematics can instantly see that all the numbers add up..... are you people so blind or so religiously into your deception that you can;t add up simple numbers.

I mean I am shocked and thought I had heard everything before. Have you no shame in your inability to see that ....

42 months means 42 months and is equal to 1260 days is equal to half of seven years, is equal to times time and the dividing of time, can;t any among you add and multiply and compare . For truly you have fulfilled the words of the prophets, for having eyes to see, they see NOT.

Why because you are blinded...

Thanks for confirming those scriptures for me and others...

I am truly shocked that people that can write can;t add up numbers and compare numbers and lengths of time.

For Preterists seem to think a thousand years doesn;t mean a thousand years, 42 months doesn;t mean 42 months, 1260 days doesn;t mean 1260 days, and on and on they go twisting the Lord's exact numbers and days and years. Shameful .... but the choice is theirs as they get disconnect mentally more and more and start their vile name calling..

No woman.....I am not a nut, but sane and rational and logical and can compare exact numbers.

Please study Grade 5 math again, SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

and then for specifics on any event see the over 160 articles on each detail with scriptures and current events.

David

Never have I seen such mathematical ignorance before , and I do mean never .... so please study your multiplication tables once again in review, and compare the exact numbers with correlate exactly in Revelation and Daniel so that no sane person would think that the tribulation has come and gone, and no sane person would think all prophecy is past tense.....

And please reframe from name calling in your desperate attempts for vindication of negating all prophetic timelines. Thanks

[Faramir]

Today @ 09:51 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61621#post61621)
David:

For Preterists seem to think a thousand years doesn;t mean a thousand years, 42 months doesn;t mean 42 months, 1260 days doesn;t mean 1260 days, and on and on they go twisting the Lord's exact numbers and days and years. Shameful .... but the choice is theirs as they get disconnect mentally more and more and start their vile name calling..



Hey David I see you still do not have the slightes clue as to what the preterist position is. While many preterist see the 1000 year period as being symbolic of a long period of time, most believe that 1260 days are literal. And if you insist on taking everything as being rigidly literal, then IMHO futurist have much more problems than preterist do.

David you asd preterist this:

"Why does 1000 years not mean 1000 years" (which has been answered in this thread by the way)

I have a few quesitions for you David (not really for you because I have given up hope of getting an answer from you, but for others who might be reading this):

Why does soon not mean soon when refering to Jesus return?

Why does this generation not mean this Generation when it is used in the Olivet Discourse?

Why does quickly not mean quickly when it is talking about Jesus coming?


For your further entertainment a parody of David's last post:



Today @ 09:51 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=61621#post61621)
Un- David:

For Futurist seem to think a generation last two thousand years, soon doesn;t mean soon, quickly doesn;t mean quickly , and on and on they go twisting the Lord's exact [b]words and sayings and phrases and text. Shameful .... but the choice is theirs as they get disconnect mentally more and more and start their vile name calling..



Oh, btw David. Woman, who called you a nut, is not a preterist.

[Ted]

David,

You seem to think that the mere fact that numbers add up requires that the theological conclusion that yields is true. That is truly a sad state of affairs.

God did not give us prophecy as a jigsaw puzzle to be solved. As Revelation 1:1 states, it reveals Christ. Every end-time prophecy in one way or another reveals the gospel. Only a Christocentric method will bring you to truth.

Your method is the one condemned by Revelation 13:18. In rhetorical fashion, John records the snide remark of the angel that, "If you think you are smart, go figure out the number of the Beast. But if you are truly God's servant, you will depend on the revelations of God."

You have put some numbers together, just as the Gnostics did. And just like the Gnostics, your numbers have no meaning. They are merely a mental exercise. It is essential for you to remove your head from the sand and begin to look at the issues that have been raised. Yelling about how your arithmetic works is not presentation of biblical truth.

I have seen many examples of how the prophetic numbers work out. And most of them disagree. Only those that help us understand the gospel can be true. You haven't shown a single bit of the gospel in your arguments. Please return to Christ.

Ted

[David]

No offernse brethren,

But you make no sense and no mathematical sense as well as your timelines are totally disjointed and null and void.

But let's get back to something you should be able to understand as one of you whether a Preterist negater or not said and recognized that 1260 days means 1260 days and not eons or ages or estimations etc. etc. The clue here is in genesis where the Lord set the rotations and revolutions of the Earth etc exactly. A day is a day.

Dear Lord , please help them to understand that a day is a day and 1260 days are 1260 days are 42 months are 3 and a half years are time, times and dividing of times as mentioned in scrioptures as mentioned and referred to for the GREAT TRIBULATION, and not their little minor local persecutions of a few people in the past.

Rev 12:6, 14, Rev 11, Daniel etc. etc.

Getting mathematical logic out of literary types is almost impossible as they tend towards science fiction

SEE Mathematical mysteries http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/MathematicsMysteries.html

No offense guys and gals, but if you don;t understand basic whole numbers how in the world will you ever advance.

IN His Mathematical Service

david

[Faramir]

Today @ 10:47 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=64059#post64059)
David:

No offernse brethren,

But you make no sense and no mathematical sense as well as your timelines are totally disjointed and null and void.

But let's get back to something you should be able to understand as one of you whether a Preterist negater or not said and recognized that 1260 days means 1260 days and not eons or ages or estimations etc. etc. The clue here is in genesis where the Lord set the rotations and revolutions of the Earth etc exactly. A day is a day.

Dear Lord , please help them to understand that a day is a day and 1260 days are 1260 days are 42 months are 3 and a half years are time, times and dividing of times as mentioned in scrioptures as mentioned and referred to for the GREAT TRIBULATION, and not their little minor local persecutions of a few people in the past.

Rev 12:6, 14, Rev 11, Daniel etc. etc.

Getting mathematical logic out of literary types is almost impossible as they tend towards science fiction

SEE Mathematical mysteries http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/MathematicsMysteries.html

No offense guys and gals, but if you don;t understand basic whole numbers how in the world will you ever advance.

IN His Mathematical Service

david

Thanks David, now I know that if I had gotten my degree in mathematics instead of Religious Studies, I would have a much better grasp of scripture. :no:

Lets see which one should I believe?

Preterist who back up their claim with the Divinely Inspired Word of God.

OR

David, who uses math in place of scripture.

I can give you support for the preterist position using scripture, something that I have ask you to do over and over again. I'm still waiting (but not holding my breath). So far all you have come up with is that your "math" is accurate.

Hey David, get a clue. Just because you happened to have numbers that add up dose not mean that your "theory" is valid.

Here is my theory. I have 2 leprechauns, my fiancé has two leprechauns. When we get married we will have 4 leprechauns. It must be true because 2+2=4.

No offense David, but I can do math. Can you do exegesis?

In His Holy Service.

Edit to add:

David, you still do not have a clue about what preterist believe do you? I would love for you to show me just one preterist who believes that, "that 1260 days means 1260 days and not eons or ages or estimations etc. etc. "

However, preterist do beleive that soon means soon and that quickly means quickly not "eons or ages or estimations, etc. etc.".

[David]

Far, you seem far from the truth

But to try and focus you again, this threasd is about exactness and simple addition of simple numbers and the beautiful way the Lord means what he says and has order and a sequential events that build up to the Consummation rather than the know nothing something will happen soon ... shallowness of some weak prophecy students stuck in some theology school that doesn;t relate to the real world or real current events.

But if you can;t add up the numbers and want to study more literary license in negating future exactness and the numbers of the Lord, that's your choice Far.

All the best in your future studies, but my I suggest backtracking a bit so you establish exactness and preciseness.

For if the trumpet is unclear who will prepare for battle...but then again the preterists and pre-tribbers and even others think there are no battles raging and no pain and suffering in the world and that they and Jesus are reigning now or they will be resuced before any pain and suffering or war gets to them.

I reckon we need to get oil in our lamps before the darkness..

IHS

David

[Faramir]

Also posted here, (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=67756#post67756) this is my last request for David. I reposted it here for the sake of readers who may not have read it in the other thread.





David I feel we are at an impasse. In order to understand your position I need for you to present it in the following matter:


03-28-2003 @ 12:01 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=47024#post47024)
Faramir:

First I will provide the scripture:




Matthew 24:

1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.



Then I will explain why the scripture supports my position, like so:

Here Jesus and his disciples have just left the temple. Jesus tells them that the temple will be destroyed. The temple they just left. The temple that was in fact destroyed in AD70. The disciples asked when would these things take place and Jesus answered &quot;this Generation will not pass away until all these things take place&quot;. A biblical generation is considered to be about 40 years. Jesus spoke these words around AD 30, the temple, the one that Jesus and the disciples were talking about (not some future temple) was destroyed about 40 years later in AD70. Coincidence or the divine revelation of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ?

If you want to have any hope of me even understanding your position, this is the method you need to use.

If you will not or cannot do this, then just let me say that it has been very interesting, if not illuminating discussing eschatology with you.

[Jason Gastrich]

Hey,

I saw this very popular thread and thought it might be about the mathematical prophecy in Daniel that refers to Jesus Christ entering Jerusalem on "Palm Sunday." Has anyone researched this? I was blown away and made a detailed explanation of it.

In short, Daniel predicted the exact day that Jesus Christ would entire Jerusalem and proclaim Himself King (Messiah the Prince, Messiah the King). Of course, this prophecy was given several hundred years in advance and consequently, it stands as one of the most magnificent prophecies in the Bible.

Link: http://daniel9.jcsm.org

God bless,
Jason

[David]

Jason,

I would first suggest to you that the messiah won;t come on a Sunday or enter Sodom now called Jerusalem until after he has gathered us and then sent the Wrath of God via his seven vials, the last of which is the Batle of Armeggeddon, and then he sets his two feet on the Mount of Olives where he left from...

Then he enters the triumphant Gate as prophesied from the east, the rising of the Son, and regains the city of david to establish His Millinial rule.

The Preterists think he is there now ruling and reigning, and have no concept about this scenario.....

But even before all this happens, the evil ones via their world organizations shall establish their man the Anti-Chirst as the one world leader as so easily understood by the open minded and open hearted. He shall conquer Jerusalem, (Sodom) as he has conquered the rest of the world and all will bow to him...except those that have discernment and know Prophecy and the Lord.

Do pray for the preterists to make progress and forsake their illusions.

And so the AC will have a type of triumph into Sodom before the Lord does....

Hope you understand this

SEE 160 posts of explanation from http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Prophecymysteries.html

All the best

DJJ

[David]

Far,

Here's an easy to understand explanation for you..

Rapture after Tribulation

If there is anything we need to understand about Prophecy, it's that Jesus doesn't come back until AFTER the Tribulation and not before. We are not raptured until After the worst period of His-story, and we therefore have to be prepared mentally and spiritually. So please go over this very basic of all prophetic principles over and over again and from all scriptures in the Old Testament and New Testament until it is ingrained in your heart. But for an introduction, let's go over the Lord's very own words that absolutely state this from Mathew 24 of the Gospels. My comments will be in ..... (parenthesis).
******************************

Mathew 24:3 And as (Jesus) sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy (2nd) Coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:4-8 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. (Jesus is saying, we have to be prepared for all these things because we have to go through them. Why because...)

Mat 24:9-11 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, (including the rise of the Anti-Christ himself) and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (but ourfaith and love for Him and others has to remain strong)

Mat 24:13-14 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this Gospel (this prophecy) of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (and not before, because we have to reach all of the lost sheep of the house of spiritual Israel before the Shepherd returns.)

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, -whoso readeth, let him understand:- (So let's try to understand this timing and as a visual help as we go along check the Daniel Timeline. Why, because the setting up of the Anti-Christ computer in the Temple at Jerusalem is the sign that the Tribulation of 1260 days has begun. See also Revelation Timeline)

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (Yes, because seeing we have been Gathered by the Lord just prior to this, then we are told to flee together in a final End-Time Exodus with our Two Prophets leading us through the wilderness.)

Mat 24:21 For THEN shall be GREAT TRIBULATION such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Yes, for when the Abomination of Desolations is set up, and the financial religious MARK of the Beast in place, then the Anti-Christ will declare war on us and any that don't take His MARK and then shall be Great Tribulation)

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Why because 'it is written' that these terrible time only lasts 1260 days, or three and a half years. For do notice that we, the elect are still here, and have been forewarned.)

Mat 24:23-26 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, (Including the one and only Anti-Christ and His False Prophet) and shall shew great signs and wonders; (SEE Revelation 13: 13) insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (But it isn't possible if we know His Prophetic Word beforehand) Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; (or in the Holy of Holies) believe it not !!

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the (2nd) Coming of the Son of Man be.

Mat 24:29-30 (For) Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days (exactly 1260 days) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (So when does the Lord return, He distinctly said to His disciples, AFTER the Tribulation, and THEN He shall come in the CLOUDS.)

Mat 24:31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, (The 7th Trumpet of Revelation. SEE Rev. 10: 7) and they shall gather together his Elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (whether they died in Old Testament Times or the New Testament Period or during the Tribulation. Praise God !! For .... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump: for the (7th) Trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. I Corinthinians 15:52)

And so if you want to meet Him in the air, just receive Him today, and accept His SALVATION, receive His HOLY SPIRIT, and pray that you make it through the Tribulation until His Coming. For one life will soon be past, and only what's done for Jesus will last.

In His Service
David

(From http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RaptureAfterTribulation.html )

[Faramir]

Today @ 01:25 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=71773#post71773)
David:

Far,

Here's an easy to understand explanation for you..

Rapture after Tribulation

If there is anything we need to understand about Prophecy, it's that Jesus doesn't come back until AFTER the Tribulation and not before. We are not raptured until After the worst period of His-story, and we therefore have to be prepared mentally and spiritually. So please go over this very basic of all prophetic principles over and over again and from all scriptures in the Old Testament and New Testament until it is ingrained in your heart. But for an introduction, let's go over the Lord's very own words that absolutely state this from Mathew 24 of the Gospels. My comments will be in ..... (parenthesis).
******************************

Mathew 24:3 And as (Jesus) sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy (2nd) Coming, and of the end of the world?

Mat 24:4-8 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. (Jesus is saying, we have to be prepared for all these things because we have to go through them. Why because...)

Mat 24:9-11 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, (including the rise of the Anti-Christ himself) and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (but ourfaith and love for Him and others has to remain strong)

Mat 24:13-14 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this Gospel (this prophecy) of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (and not before, because we have to reach all of the lost sheep of the house of spiritual Israel before the Shepherd returns.)

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, -whoso readeth, let him understand:- (So let's try to understand this timing and as a visual help as we go along check the Daniel Timeline. Why, because the setting up of the Anti-Christ computer in the Temple at Jerusalem is the sign that the Tribulation of 1260 days has begun. See also Revelation Timeline)

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (Yes, because seeing we have been Gathered by the Lord just prior to this, then we are told to flee together in a final End-Time Exodus with our Two Prophets leading us through the wilderness.)

Mat 24:21 For THEN shall be GREAT TRIBULATION such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Yes, for when the Abomination of Desolations is set up, and the financial religious MARK of the Beast in place, then the Anti-Christ will declare war on us and any that don't take His MARK and then shall be Great Tribulation)

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Why because 'it is written' that these terrible time only lasts 1260 days, or three and a half years. For do notice that we, the elect are still here, and have been forewarned.)

Mat 24:23-26 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, (Including the one and only Anti-Christ and His False Prophet) and shall shew great signs and wonders; (SEE Revelation 13: 13) insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (But it isn't possible if we know His Prophetic Word beforehand) Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; (or in the Holy of Holies) believe it not !!

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the (2nd) Coming of the Son of Man be.

Mat 24:29-30 (For) Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days (exactly 1260 days) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (So when does the Lord return, He distinctly said to His disciples, AFTER the Tribulation, and THEN He shall come in the CLOUDS.)

Mat 24:31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, (The 7th Trumpet of Revelation. SEE Rev. 10: 7) and they shall gather together his Elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (whether they died in Old Testament Times or the New Testament Period or during the Tribulation. Praise God !! For .... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump: for the (7th) Trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. I Corinthinians 15:52)

And so if you want to meet Him in the air, just receive Him today, and accept His SALVATION, receive His HOLY SPIRIT, and pray that you make it through the Tribulation until His Coming. For one life will soon be past, and only what's done for Jesus will last.

In His Service
David

(From http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RaptureAfterTribulation.html )

Thanks David, that was great. :thumb:

Not that I agree with you, but now we have a point for productive discussion. I do not have the time now to address each point you made, but I do plan on addressing them as soon as I get a chance.

In the meantime, you can check here, (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1539) for a detailed description of my position on this passage. This is a link to a debate here at tweb between myself and Atanasius.

You may also want to look at Athanasius' post as he does an excelent job of using scripture and then explaining his position from that scripture. This debate is an example of the type of exchange that I am looking for.

Also, I noticed that other preterist have challenged you to a one on one debate in the gym. I think that that would be great, are you up to it?

[efta777]

Mat 24:4-8 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. (Jesus is saying, we have to be prepared for all these things because we have to go through them. Why because...)

David,
I don't have time either to go into your entire response right now (Though I am impressed with the scripture usage; good job), however, I do want to point out that your biggest exegetical error happened right at the beginning, and due to this one error, your entire view of Matt. 24 is off.
According to the quote above, Jesus is talking specifically to the disciples, in fact in verse 3 as you quoted, they came to him PRIVATELY. There is no reason at all to imply from this verse that Jesus is talking to us, telling us that we are near the end times! None whatsoever. Jesus clarifies this even more in verse 34 by telling them that it is THEIR generation which will see this. What makes you think Jesus is takling specifically to us right now? Why wasn't he talking to those in the 4th century, or the 8th century or the 19th century? He wasn't talking to those people? He skipped them and went directly to us? I don't see any evidence for that.

You also conveniently stopped exegeting verses before you arrived at verse 34. interesting.

If Faramir doesn't get to it first maybe later I'll go through and analyze what you wrote about the other passages, but I would love it if you would continue to take this issue seriously and post more scripture and interpretation of said scripture so a real discussion can happen.

Also, how about a one on one debate in the boxing ring? Yes or no, I'll keep hounding till I get it.

[Faramir]

Don't wait for me efta. I'll be very busy for the next few days.

[David]

According to the quote above, Jesus is talking specifically to the disciples, in fact in verse 3 as you quoted, they came to him PRIVATELY. There is no reason at all to imply from this verse that Jesus is talking to us, telling us that we are near the end times! None whatsoever. Jesus clarifies this even more in verse 34 by telling them that it is THEIR generation which will see this. What makes you think Jesus is takling specifically to us right now? Why wasn't he talking to those in the 4th century, or the 8th century or the 19th century? He wasn't talking to those people? He skipped them and went directly to us? I don't see any evidence for that.

jesus was talking to us, because it correlates exactly with what he spoke to daniel, John, and the other prophets...the creator of the Plan and All prophecy did not and would not isolate prophecy and mislead his disciples into thinking he would return in their generation... That's an insane dioctrine that even Paul countered with 2 Thessalonians 2, which is as exact and precise as anything can get. I am totally baffled that you can;t understand the simpliest of verses.

The AC must come first. have you never read any prophecy at all. Jesus comes afterwards, the last kingdom has not come and then the AC kingdom did not replace it.... the abomination has not been set up, the 3rd temple has not been built.. I'm tired of repeating to those that refuse to listen or read scriptures or history or try to understand.

Mathew 15 is EXACT, Jesus is EXACT, the Tribulation then His APPEARING is exact and means exactly what it says.

Now what verse do you want to know in Mathew 24 ? I'm totally shocked !!!

Fig leave, Noah, ten virgins ..... they all make sense, they all fit together if you just pray and get some common sense and ask the Lord. he is not the author of confusion and he did not confuse his disciples in telling them he was returning in a few years, or in 70 AD. believe it or not He did NOT return in 70 AD.he still has not returned...get real, he comes back after the Tribulation of 1260 days the last part of the Last seven Years...exactly. Exactly three and a half days after our witnesses get killed...exactly..

Exactly in my opinion according to exact scriptures

David

[bar Jonah]

David and everyone, I hope you will join me in recognizing TheologyWeb's seven-day cease fire known as Fellowship Week. We are discouraging debate and argument... and encouraging laughter, heartwarming stories, building friendships and other relationships this week.

I'm not going to stop you from participating in debate this week... but I implore you to put it on the back burner for a few days, until next Sunday. The vast majority of people here at TW are brothers and sisters in Christ. Let's remind ourselves of that, and put down our "weapons" evidence, logic and reason and share some positive, edifying fun for just one week.

Thanks!

-- the Mgmt <>< :thumb:

[David]

Thanks, and seeing it is longer than a week, now, let's get bacj to the seriousness of prophecy, world conditions, plagues, wars, the upcoming Peace Covenant of Daniel, the Trib and THEN the coming of the Lord.

If that isn;t exciting and encouraging I don;t know what is. It isn't doom and gloom, it is the dawning of the New Age, when He shall rule and reign rather than the insanity of todays leaders in public and behind the scenes...

And the Timeline of Daniel gives us the exact scenario of events that happen after the signing of the 10 nation Covenant of Daniel.

And surely the RoadMap to Peace is the precursor to this monumental prophetic event. The world will think it has peace but it only brings on more war and even the tribulation itself.

But thank the Lord we know in advance...as that is what Prophecy is for ....

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

All the best to those that seek ...