Exact Daniel Timeline

[David]

Hi and thanks for the invite, but I am not a student at a university just a student of the Lord now and a 'missionary' since university long long ago.

Anyway, my time is limited, but scripturially it says enquire whoin is worthy, and abide there til you go hence...and so let me see if there are students here.,,and those more noble than those in Thessalonicka.

((((Whew ....The icons to the left are annoying ...... and distracting.)))

And seeing I and we are in the real world, and a real horrendous war is about to be waged by America for her own greed and self-interests according to the Lord's Will in allowing her to bring the world to almost WW3 and then the Covenant of daniel..

So let's check out, Daniel's words which were confirmed by Jesus for he gives an exact and precise and concise and mathematical Timeline that is orderly and scripturial.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

and in words

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Daniel9.html

So the question is do you agree or disagree with these numnbers and these references. And what timeline do you have in comparison ?

I would ask that Preterists or whatever they are called NOT respond in anyway, as I have zero patience with such a doctrine of nonsense. They can discuss their doctrine elsewhere I would assume, as there is plenty of room. for their negating of all prophecy. And I don;t want to seem rude by responding to them, nor evading their dumb questions that make zero sense and have sero credibility.

If they had any reason, or logic or spirituality they would have a timeline and they absolutely can't because they are as disjointed as their theory. Nevertheless they can surely read this thread if they like.

Sorry all, time is of the essense and no time for me personnally to chat with people that don;t know the very basic principle of the Lord. If they don;t know, then they weren't meant to know. And so I would ask that only believers in prophecy respond here about specifics and time and direction and the scenario of real events that will be happenning AFTER the COVENANT is signed.

Thanks, you can obviously respond however you like, but if you want a different point of view or a confirming point of view of what you already know, do try and stay on topic concerning the future and its time frames according to the LORD.

Blessings to you if you are searching and learning

IHS

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TimeProphecy.html

[Sozo]

The end of the world took place 2000 years ago...


Heb 9:26

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

[David]

As mentioned, please, please focus on Daniel and people that think the end of the world has already happenned, please please don't respond, but start your own thread.

This is a serious thread about prophecy not about one verse that doesn't correlate with any known timelines or any of the Lord's future events.

Preterists please start your own thread.

Thanks

David

PS) The end of the world has already happenned.... how ridiculous, next they will say that jesus is ruling and there is everlasting righteousness, the trumpets have sounded, and the Battle of Armeggeddon already happenned secretly, blah blah blah... let's get real and talk seriously about the Lord's serious prophecy.

Otherwise I am out of here.

I saw a good posting from some one below about how Mathew absolutely shows that Preterists have no basis.

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RaptureAfterTribulation.html

But please don't post your comments about this, unless you have already understood this very basic of prophecy, that makes you want to learn more rather than negating all prophecy as the Preterists do.

Only serious students of prophecy need post. Thanks

[Sozo]

Hey Dee Dee.. I got called a "Preterist" :rofl:

WRONG!!!

[efta777]

Okay, I'm a preterist, but I'm not going to try and debate you on futurism/preterism... my question is simply this: You sound very confident that the possible U.S. military action is a sure sign of the endtimes- why?
(Oh, and I'd love to talk some sense into you about the real reasons for this war, beyond America's greed and self-interest. Just head on over to the podium forum if you want)

[David]

Yes, you are definitely a Preterist, wherever that silly name came from, as it is not pre-but past tense nonsense and negates all prophecy and dilludes people into fantasies and non-thinking.

But that's for your threads, this one concerns the truth about prophecy and the future. And the start of the timeline that is absolutely unconditional is the signing of the Covenant of Daniel. This gives the security to build the 3rd temple, and any one that knows the basics of prophecy realizes the 3rd temple has to be built. This can't be done now , and so we await the vile acts that bring it about and forces the combatants to sign such a religious, political and military agreement to ensure the security of Israel and especially Jerusalem and the mount.

America or Merica from Britian roots, is definitely one of the toes or horns that is destroyed by the A.C. For the AC will arise in Russia after the signing of the Covenant, and will be against the Covenant as spoken so clearly concerning in Daniel 8 and 11. Its cohort britian shall surely be one of the other ones as she is complicit with America, her offsrping in this next war and the following wars after the Covenant is signed.

For even now if you know current events, deplorable Britian has joined America in violating the SALT agreement and is working on a nuclear shield Star War system which will allow her to strike unilaterally any cuntry it chooses.... but the problem is Russia will be forced to do the same, and according to prophecy Russia , the homeland of the vile AC will get the shield first and strike the Harlot without retaliation, and destroy her in one literal hour.
(See http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Onesidedwar.html )

So America's destruction is in prophecy but she isn't around as a power in the Tribulation, when the whole world yields to the Beast and its MARK. (SEE Anti-Christ Board http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Anti-ChristsProphecies.html )

So America is in prophecy and normal honest readers see her easily when reading Revelation.

But that is not the topic of this thread, yet you are welcome to start a new thread about America's atrocious behaviour and the next vile war for oil, that any searcher of truth can easily find out as long as they are not deluded by church doctrine. A student of life can see it, if not, it means they are not meant to see it. For the blind shall be blind, and having eyes they will see not as the Lord has said.

But this topic is the exact and mathematical days of daniel and how the events follow each other and correspond exactly to all the prophets words, and we are talking about all the prophets from Moses onward, even though Adam knew that the Son of Man was coming as well.

So the Covenant is the start of the LAST 7 years, and Lord willing it is about to happen with this vile war...upon the innocent lives of those in Iraq, and which will spread to other countries unfortunately. Nevertheless the Lord shall take care of them and yet shall punish those responsible for such atrocities.

According to scriptures and current events

All the best to the searchers and seekers of Jesus' truths

David jay Jordan

[Hitch]

9,10,,,,,,,19,20,,,,,,,,,29,30,,,,,,,39,40,,,,,,,,,49,50,,,,,,59,60,,,,,,69


There is only one correct number to complete the sequence.


H

[dizzle]

Admin Note I do request that we honor David's request and not post in his thread if we hold to preterism. We are certainly free to start our own thread challenging any of these ideas.... Thank you!!

[Hitch]

Dee Dee Warren:
Admin Note I do request that we honor David's request and not post in his thread if we hold to preterism. We are certainly free to start our own thread challenging any of these ideas.... Thank you!! Absolutely. I failed to notice that request.


HITCH

[dizzle]

Thank you, I figured as much!

[efta777]

David,
First off, what was all that nonsense about my user name? I must warn you that when I came up with that name I was a futurist, though my eschatological bearings had no affect on it... So I have no idea what you're trying to say...
Second, I noticed you're from Canada...That explains alot ;) Just kidding, I actually live about an hour south of Vancouver and I visit Canada all the time and have nothing against ya'll.
Lastly, I skimmed those links you gave, and I can honestly say that based on your methods of interpreting prophecy, I can't think of any rational way of debating you on this without getting preterism involved

But one more question that I hope you'll be able to answer... The link you gave has very general scriptural references (I.E. "revelation 17 & 18). I'd appreciate it if you could supply some specific verses and a summary of your line of reasoning based on these verses, then maybe we could work off of that.

[David]

Issac,

Go over the easy to understand future scenario's of revelation to understand Daniel

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Revelation.html

or the longer rev Timeline

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RevelationsTimeline.html

If you have specific questions along the timeline or Rev 17 and 18 just ask.. giving your opinion first

Thanks

David

[e4e]

That is about the dumbest timeline I have ever seen. :idea: You need to do some more :read:ing.:bonk:

[David]

Yes I agree e4e, your response is about the dumbest I have seen in a long time, especially when you said nothing specific nor were able to give a timeline of your own.


Thanks, so hoping to hear better comments from you in the future. Do remember this is a Christian Board. And even if you aren't a Christian you should show a degree of respect, and bring something to the table.

IN HIS SERVICE

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/AllOpinionsarenotequal.html

[e4e]

David Yes I agree e4e, your response is about the dumbest I have seen in a long time, especially when you said nothing specific nor were able to give a timeline of your own.


Thanks, so hoping to hear better comments from you in the future. Do remember this is a Christian Board. And even if you aren't a Christian you should show a degree of respect, and bring something to the table.

e4e---- You said that you didn't wont to discuss someone elses time line, Just your own. Yours doesnot exist in scriture. So what is there to disccuss?:bonk:

[David]

Maybe there are no prophecy students here, e4e and therefore the only thing that can be discussed is the insanity of preterist doctrine that negates all prophecy. But I was hoping this thread could be about the present and the FUTURE from scriptures.

But discussing past tense preterism is almost impossible, because preterists have seen the scriptures, read them and even studied them and still can;t see the obvious and the blatant, and have obviously never prayed about such a negating devoid doctrine that discourages them from finding out more truths in the present and in the future.

But yes, e4e discuss the present and the future and bring on your timeline, as that is what this thread is about, Not the past, but the present and FUTURE. if you have comments make them.

And I even challenged you to make up a past tense timeline on the Revelations Thread. So if you have a present future tense timeline post about it here. if it is past tense then post it on the revelation thread.

Hoping you have a timeline for discussion, it would be truly interesting in either case.

Sincerely

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RaptureAfterTribulation.html

[e4e]

DavidMaybe there are no prophecy students here, e4e and therefore the only thing that can be discussed is the insanity of preterist doctrine that negates all prophecy. But I was hoping this thread could be about the present and the FUTURE from scriptures.

e4e---I am no preterist but nether am I a tribulationalest ot millenialest; pre post or mid. I do not jump through hopes to make my view fit someone's idea of prophecy. That is a different statement than what you made before. I will discuss prophecy with you but I will not be held to your point of view or timeline.

Hoping you have a timeline for discussion, it would be truly interesting in either case.

e4e Will I do not have one so your hope is in vain

But yes, e4e discuss the present and the future and bring on your timeline, as that is what this thread is about, Not the past, but the present and FUTURE. if you have comments make them.

e4e---You cannot discuss the present and the future without discussing the past. It is you understanding of what has gone before thar lays the foundation of what you believe is the present and the future. At least the preterist have the nerve to lay a foundation for there point of view and have it chalenged. That is more than I have seen from you.:brow:

[David]

e4e, Fine then start discussing and giving input, for that was the intent of this thread, a thread continues on and progresses.

For Yes, there are fulfilled prophecies and definitely the messianic prophecies have all been fulfilled by jesus

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/MessianicPropheciesfulfilledbyJesus.html

And the six kingdoms of Daniel and revelation have come and gone and we are awaiting the seventh. And so we discuss a bit about the past, although it will only help us a little bit in the present and future. Neveretheless sorting out what has already been fulfilled helps, but the preterists go to the extreme and suggest all is fulfilled except the rapture which is truly lamentable.

And then they are besides themselves in understanding the present and make the wildest concoctions out of mid-air, when the here and now and the future is what the Word of the Lord was meant to help us with. And the Lord via Joel 2:28-29 gives us more and more until the very End, not less and less like the Pretersist believe.

So do say something significant about the past if you like e4e, that helps us understand the present and the future.

But just being past tense without referencing the present and future is devoid in my opinion.

But I must admit that this Board as seen from the Poll had only one prophecy student on it, that I saw, for only one thought prophecy was future tense. Amazing..amazing

So do continue e4e or others if you can relate the past to the present and even if you have no timelines or coherent order of events for the present into the future.

David

[e4e]

DavidAnd the six kingdoms of Daniel and revelation have come and gone and we are awaiting the seventh.

e4e------ agreeded.

DavidSo do say something significant about the past if you like e4e, that helps us understand the present and the future.

e4e---Do you believe that the timeline of Daniel 9 has been fulfilled in its entirety? If not , why not?

David But I must admit that this Board as seen from the Poll had only one prophecy student on it, that I saw, for only one thought prophecy was future tense. Amazing..amazing

e4e-----What is wrong with verifying fulfilled prophecy through history? This is a great sourse of encurragement to me. Though it is past we look at when the prophecy was given see the faithfuness of God to His word. Past prophecy is a great encurrager of God's children. Rev. is a record of past, present and future prophecy. It tells what was, what is and what is to come. All having its own value in God's plan. Do not be so focussed on one at the expense of the other.

As far as I can tell THe Seventh Empire has yet to be Idetified. I can speculate as well as the next guy as to who that is. The 10 kings who hate the whore and are in league with the beast have not been identified but I have a therry on who they are. The whore is presently with us and has been all through history and she will be destroyed by the 10 kings after she has revealed herself publicly. This is all future to the writer of the Rev. but may be present today.

[e4e]

TRIBULATION


TRIBULATION- what is a tribulation? 5ME tribulation < OFr < LL(Ec) tribulation < tribulare, to afflict, oppress < L, to press < tribulum, threshing platform with sharp studs, akin to terere, to rub: for IE base see THROW6
1 great misery or distress, as from oppression; deep sorrow
2 something that causes suffering or distress; affliction; trial
Webster’s New World Dictionary

Solomon’s Temple was built on a threshing floor that King David had bought at the instruction of the Angel of God. It is the site where King David built an alter and sacrificed for His sin of numbering the people. This threshing platform on which the Temple was built can also be called a tribulation platform. It was from this platform that God judged Israel.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understand ------------ 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. I would think that the mention of a specific prophecy would get special attention. The great tribulation is time specific and has a specific people and geographical location. This prophecy is to Israel and to the holy city and not to the world in general.

Daniel 9:20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

What vision was the Angel (the man) Gabriel talking about. Daniel 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first. -----15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. -------19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. -----26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision for it shall be for many days. (After Gabriel had explained the vision) -----------27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Daniel had received this vision in the third year of Bel-shaz-zar and now it was the first year of Darius the Mead and the 70-year of captivity was completed and Daniel wonted to know what would happen now. The 70 years that Jeremiah talked about seemed to be completed and he was still a captive. It is not that Daniel doubted God but there must be more to it . His understanding was incomplete.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. The vision had a limited duration. 70 years
2. The vision concerned Israel’s future and has nothing to do with the church or any extension of time longer than that specified. All acts, delays are taken into account and all will be completed within the specified time frame, 70 YEARS
3. At the end of this 70-year prophesy 7 goals will have been accomplished.
A. To finish the transgression
B. To make an end of sins
C. To make reconciliation for iniquity
D. To bring in everlasting righteousness
E. To seal up the vision.
F. To seal up the prophecy
G. To anoint the most Holy

What was the transgression that had to be finished? The disobedience of Israel toward God. Remember these 70 weeks was directed to Israel and Jerusalem not the nations that God used to accomplish His purpose. Israel’s ultimate rejection of God is the transgression of God’s provision for them. They just flat out did not believe God. They had no faith in God to accomplish His word in them.

Sins, plural, is not a correct translation. The word is Singular and refers to sin. Not a particular sin but a condition called sin. Not a specific act but the body of sins, collectively. The reference is to the condition of Israel’s existence.

What does it mean to make reconciliation? Perhaps a good example is the case of a traffic ticket. When someone runs a stop sign the police gives the violator a traffic ticket that has a fine of a set amount. When that ticket is paid then reconciliation has been made. To reconcile anything a consideration must be given to the one who has been wronged. For iniquity, God has demanded payment and the Angel Gabriel said that at the conclusion of this 70 week period of time the price to be paid for iniquity will have been paid. Iniquity is sin and the required price for its reconciliation is death.

Everlasting righteousness will have arrived and established at that time. At what time? At the end of the 70 weeks. It is not something achieved but something delivered.

To seal up the vision. What vision? The one Daniel had problems understanding.

To seal up the prophecy what prophesy? The one in chapter 8 that Daniel did not understand.

To anoint the most Holy. I believe this has specific reference to Jesus the Messiah. To anoint something is to apply something to something. Something Holy is something sanctified or set apart. This praise signifies the setting apart the anointed by God to special service. Jesus was set aside to redeem or pay the price for sin.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The restoring and the rebuilding of Jerusalem is the command we are looking for, not the temple. The scripture says that it would be 69 weeks from the giving of this command to the Messiah. Historically that has taken place. The 69 weeks is time sensitive. The Messiah was to be in Jerusalem at the conclusion of the 69 weeks and then be cut off.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Notice the colon ( : ). It is used to address a related subject to the sentence that it follows. “After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:” The subject is the Messiah, not the prince or the people of the prince. The cutting off of the Messiah is the reason that the people of the prince shall come. The people of the prince do not cut off the Messiah. The Messiah came to His on and His own received Him not. (John1:11 ). The people of the prince are the results of the cutting off not the cause of it.

The he in verse 27 refers to the messiah not the people of the prince. The coming Messiah is the subject matter of the prophecy. It is the Messiah who establishes the new covenant with the people and is cut of in the midst of the one week. It is Jesus Christ that causes the sacrifice and oblations to cease. The abomination that caused the desolation was the crucifixion of Christ Because of the repeated rejections of the Messiah by Israel, the abominations, Jesus made Jerusalem empty and the temple an empty and lifeless place. The physical always follows the spiritual. The people of the prince just executed in the physical realm what had already taken place in the spiritual realm. Jesus was not the abomination, the rejection of the Messiah was.

It was the killing of Jesus on the cross that caused the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The continued rejection of the risen Messiah; The evidence, the preaching and the witnessing of the gospel were all rejected and with the magnitude of the rejections increasing in depth and violence caused the inevitable to happened.

In terms of physical destruction all that had happened before in Israel’s history was done to discipline and to draw Israel back to her God, but this time she would not be able to come back. God destroyed the physical form of worship and all those related objects that went with it. To this day only pagan temples have been built where the Jewish temple now stands. The temple at Jerusalem will never be rebuilt again. The effect of this desolation is permanent and will never happen again. The only reprieve Israel has is to accept the Messiah and High Priest that God has appointed for her.

Though the temple had been desecrated and destroyed before it had always been rebuilt and the law and the sacrifices and oblations had always been restored in times past, they will never be restored again. Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the law and Jesus is the final sacrifice for Israel and the whole world. As the Babylonians were the tool in God’s hands to send Israel into the 70 year captivity to punish Israel so also were the Romans to destroy the vestiges of a now lifeless religion.

Three and one half years after Jesus was crucified, Jesus called The Apostle Paul and made us fellow hairs with Israel by grace through faith in the shad blood of Christ Jesus. The seventh year was complete. Mission accomplished and no future seven year period of anything. Jesus did not leave His work undone.

[Hitch]

In terms of physical destruction all that had happened before in Israel’s history was done to discipline and to draw Israel back to her God, but this time she would not be able to come back. God destroyed the physical form of worship and all those related objects that went with it. To this day only pagan temples have been built where the Jewish temple now stands. The temple at Jerusalem will never be rebuilt again. The effect of this desolation is permanent and will never happen again. The only reprieve Israel has is to accept the Messiah and High Priest that God has appointed for her.

Though the temple had been desecrated and destroyed before it had always been rebuilt and the law and the sacrifices and oblations had always been restored in times past, they will never be restored again. Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the law and Jesus is the final sacrifice for Israel and the whole world. As the Babylonians were the tool in God’s hands to send Israel into the 70 year captivity to punish Israel so also were the Romans to destroy the vestiges of a now lifeless religion.

Three and one half years after Jesus was crucified, Jesus called The Apostle Paul and made us fellow hairs with Israel by grace through faith in the shad blood of Christ Jesus. The seventh year was complete. Mission accomplished and no future seven year period of anything. Jesus did not leave His work undone.


YUP


H

[Athanasius]

e4e:
1. The vision had a limited duration. 70 years

Did you mean to say 70 weeks of years? The duration of the vision is not 70 years, but 70 weeks (of years). Literally, seventy sevens.

[Athanasius]

David, you wanted a futurist to dialogue with you, you've got one now. What is your basis for considering the great whore to be America?

Although America may share some characteristics in common with the great harlot of Rev 17, I think there is sufficient scriptural evidence that America is not her.

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Note that Rev 17:18 says "which reigneth [present tense] over the kings of the earth." To me, this seems to be a reference to Rome, which was reigning over the kings of the earth at that time. Rome was founded on seven hills (see http://www.britannica.com/seo/s/seven-hills-of-rome/ ).

[e4e]

Athanasius Did you mean to say 70 weeks of years? The duration of the vision is not 70 years, but 70 weeks (of years). Literally, seventy sevens.

e4e---------------->:bonk: :argh: :whip: :oops:

[dizzle]

Dear e4e:

Did you see the other thread here in this section on the seventy weeks?

[Athanasius]

Hi David, I had a look at your Daniel timeline, and I appreciate all of the hard work that you put into into it. I haven't had time yet to look over the verses in Daniel and compare them to your timeline, but one thing definitely jumps out at me. Why do you believe that the Anti-Christ will come from Russia? I've never heard that idea before. I think that he will probably come from Italy. Here's why:

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After the messiah is cut off, the "people of the prince that shall come" will destroy the city and the sanctuary. I'm not a preterist, but I do think that they have got it right in some areas, and this is one of them. After Jesus was "cut off" (crucified), the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, in direct fulfillment of this prophecy, Matt 23:37-39, Luke 21:20-24, and other scriptures.

So, the Romans are the people of the prince that shall come. This means that if this prince is the Antichrist, he must come from the Roman people. Russia seems to have a place in end-time events according to prophesy, but I don't believe that THE Antichrist will come from there (although they have produced some very wicked antichrists with a little "a," such as Stalin, who starved to death millions of peasants in the Ukraine alone (The figures vary from 3.5 to over 10 million, depending on the source. It is estimated that as many as 30 million were starved to death when the Communist party took power in China and utilized similar collectivization tactics. By the way, a note for preterists who read this: These were tribulations many times larger than the seige of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, so how could 70 AD be the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21, which states, " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.")

[David]

e4e,

Bring something to the table, say something positive, or as the Lord says, Produce your cause. But on this thread say something about current events and the future rather than dragging us back into the pits of the past.

Say something that inspires searching for truths rather than negating it with preterists nonsense.

Ready begin now.....

And then we can relate it to Daniel


SEE also what I did last night as a background even though uncompleted http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/7KingdomsofMan.html

All the best in Jesus prophetic Future Words

David

[e4e]

David Bring something to the table, say something positive, or as the Lord says, Produce your cause. But on this thread say something about current events and the future rather than dragging us back into the pits of the past.

e4e---What I said is very positive. I have just given you my time line in contrast to that pie in the sky hoax that you are trying to sell. You need:help:

David Say something that inspires searching for truths rather than negating it with preterists nonsense.

e4e ----What I have said is not nonsense and if the preterist happen to have it right on this essue then at least they have a good foundation. That is more than I can say for your time line. I am not a preterist. I just know how to read with comprehention

DavidReady begin now.....And then we can relate it to Daniel


e4e---The relationship of Daniel 9: 24-27 to our present time is foundational. It has no referance further in history than AD70,and that is the elushion to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans which I have already addressed. :shrug:

[e4e]

Dee Dee WarrenDid you see the other thread here in this section on the seventy weeks?

e4e---No, I don't recall it but I will take a look see. :bow: :bow:your grace.

[David]

Ath,

Please excuse if I missed seeing your posting earlier, mu apologies...... as surely your point is discussable. But unfortunately for time sake and clarity sake I have to repost it and use << >> to put my reaction in...

******************************


Hi David, I had a look at your Daniel timeline, and I appreciate all of the hard work that you put into into it. <<Thanks but it actually isn;t all mine as we all build on what other teachers have taight and hopefully they were taught by the Lord>> I haven't had time yet to look over the verses in Daniel and compare them to your timeline, but one thing definitely jumps out at me. Why do you believe that the Anti-Christ will come from Russia? I've never heard that idea before. (He's the King of the North as stated in Daniel 11, and it fitsd church hstory and Russia history and the rise 0f the Anti-Christ and the annihialation of America the Whore, and the establishment of the NWO as told by the dark side prophecies as well SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/RussiaPropheciesabouttheAnti-Christ.html and daniel 11 posting >>> I think that he will probably come from Italy. Here's why: <<<Probably thinking he is a future Pope if I can quess before reading>>>


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



After the messiah is cut off, the "people of the prince that shall come" will destroy the city and the sanctuary. I'm not a preterist, but I do think that they have got it right in some areas, and this is one of them. After Jesus was "cut off" (crucified), the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, in direct fulfillment of this prophecy, Matt 23:37-39, Luke 21:20-24, and other scriptures.
<<<Good >>

So, the Romans are the people of the prince that shall come.<<<(No worldly people are the people of the prince, not just Romans >>> This means that if this prince is the Antichrist, he must come from the Roman people. (<<<Disagree but continue >> Russia seems to have a place in end-time events according to prophesy, but I don't believe that THE Antichrist will come from there (although they have produced some very wicked antichrists with a little "a," such as Stalin, who starved to death millions of peasants in the Ukraine alone (The figures vary from 3.5 to over 10 million, depending on the source. It is estimated that as many as 30 million were starved to death when the Communist party took power in China and utilized similar collectivization tactics. <<<You got that right, they have had as horrible a history as the capitalists. Thank the Lord the Lord isn;t nationalistic and will be gathering His people from all nationalisties>>>

By the way, a note for preterists who read this: These were tribulations many times larger than the seige of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, so how could 70 AD be the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21, which states, " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.") <<<Exactly Ath .. it didn;t last three and a half years, no trumpets sounded, no prophets of the Lord emerged, and Jesus didnt come back in 73 AD. Dumb doctrine in my opinion >>>

THanks Ath...forgot the last edning to yuor name, but will get it right eventually which is also all the Lord asks of his people, get it right by the End. Mistakes now are not momumental just keep plugging and studying and witnessing his truth, even if you only know the Love of Jesus...good enough but there is more.

Love in Jesus

david

[Athanasius]

Hi David, thanks for your reply. I appreciate the spirit of your reply to me and it helps me to understand your perspective more. Please consider being more respectful of the orthodox partial preterists here, though, many of whom strike me as sincere people who are trying to interpret scripture with integrity. They have made some points in some of these threads that I think any millenialist will find challenging, even if he is able to come up with a reasonable answer.

Did you also see my post above about why I don't think that America is the great harlot of Rev 17? I'm an American, so I certainly hope that you are wrong on that point! No doubt though, that God will bring America and all nations into judgement for their sins.

[efta777]

David,
I'm having a hard time deciphering your quoting system. FYI: The one that is available on this site is very easy to learn and implement.

Russia seems to have a place in end-time events according to prophesy, but I don't believe that THE Antichrist will come from there (although they have produced some very wicked antichrists with a little "a," such as Stalin, who starved to death millions of peasants in the Ukraine alone

I both agree and disagree: The usage of Anti-Christ in the Bible is ONLY used when referring to the "Little 'a'" anti-christ. It refers to anyone who is against Christ (hence the morphology of the word). Therefore, you are correct in placing Stalin in that camp. But the further question would be; what evidence is there to suggest a 'special' anti-Christ who would be THE Anti-Christ. Biblical references and explanations would be helpful.

By the way, a note for preterists who read this: These were tribulations many times larger than the seige of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, so how could 70 AD be the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21, which states, " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.") <<<Exactly Ath .. it didn;t last three and a half years, no trumpets sounded, no prophets of the Lord emerged, and Jesus didnt come back in 73 AD. Dumb doctrine in my opinion >>>

No tribulation has been greater from a covenental status. It represented God's divorcing Israel and taking the Church as His new Bride. One of the greatest events in history.
It DID last 3 1/2 years. Their were trumpets, there were 'prophets' (I assume you mean the witnesses in Rev), and Jesus came down on a cloud of judgement in A.D. 70 (A.D. 73 is insignificant). You don't see how any of this could happen because you're looking at the prophecy through an already well-developed lense of interpretation, and therefore none of this will make sense to you until you at least try to understand what we are saying. This is why I'm not going into too much detail on all this, I feel like I'd be wasting my time.

[David]

e4e, Please go over all the scriptures from the daniel Timeline, and if you have any question at all, even on any specific, I can answer you with scriptures.

Not a problem.

I have been a missionary for 30 years, and have many of them memorized anyway....

And the words of the Lord work and have never failed, to this I can atest not from reading but from doing.

So just ask and you shall get an answer, as that's what the Lord directs us to do...give an answer to him that asketh ...

Right ? Right !

What's your question, but you have to seek to find and be honest to discover the Lord's truths. So at least ask with an honest heart.

Thanks hoping to hear from you

Blessings

david

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/WehavetoChoose.html

[bar Jonah]

02-12-2003 @ 06:14 PM
Hitch:

9,10,,,,,,,19,20,,,,,,,,,29,30,,,,,,,39,40,,,,,,,,,49,50,,,,,,59,60,,,,,,69

There is only one correct number to complete the sequence.

H
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

What's your point?

[David]

bro....


I both agree and disagree: The usage of Anti-Christ in the Bible is ONLY used when referring to the &quot;Little 'a'&quot; anti-christ. It refers to anyone who is against Christ (hence the morphology of the word). Therefore, you are correct in placing Stalin in that camp. But the further question would be; what evidence is there to suggest a 'special' anti-Christ who would be THE Anti-Christ. Biblical references and explanations would be helpful.

****************The Anti-Christ goes by many names and so a discussion on the so called antichrist is of no value. The son of perdition, the Evil One, the Little Horn, etc. etc. etc. etc. are all about one man the leader of the NWO, the head of the Illuminati that gets possessed by the devil himself. Straight forward and simple...http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Anti-ChristsProphecies.html *************



No tribulation has been greater from a covenental status. It represented God's divorcing Israel and taking the Church as His new Bride. One of the greatest events in history.
It DID last 3 1/2 years. Their were trumpets, there were 'prophets' (I assume you mean the witnesses in Rev), and Jesus came down on a cloud of judgement in A.D. 70 (A.D. 73 is insignificant). You don't see how any of this could happen because you're looking at the prophecy through an already well-developed lense of interpretation, and therefore none of this will make sense to you until you at least try to understand what we are saying. This is why I'm not going into too much detail on all this, I feel like I'd be wasting my time. [/QUOTE]

***

Jesus has not returned, jesus did not come in the clouds, there was No marriage supper, you all haven;t missed it , its for teh future and Jesus is not in control of the world but allowing His prophetic words, and the evil people's power be shown so people are forced to choose, and then he destroys them.

Straight forweard and simple...

Minor little this and thats in the past are nothing compared to the trib. read it again it is not a little persecution but a worldwide time of the greatest atrocities ever committed...

Thanks hope you start preparing at least spiritually

The Lord bless and keep you

IHS

David

[e4e]

It is a well known fact that in the Hebrew as well as in the Greek, there is no punctuation or capitalization. The original manuscript lacked any punctuation and what ever translation is used the punctuation is supplied by the translator and is not arbitrary. The translation used can be used as a guide and for the most part can be relied upon. Many times however the translator colors the interpretation by his on set of beliefs no matter how intellectually honest he is. There are times that the translation is limited by an edict of a religious organization such as The Church of England and King James. In this case church doctrine colored the translator’s work.

It is incumbent upon the bible student to search the scriptures and to commit his learning before the Lord that he may be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit. That is why we quarrel so much. Each of us has our biases . We are all victims in a sense. We each come bringing our own load of baggage. Our own possessions in our uncompromising dogmatic fashion and our need to be right. We are not seeking the truth but seeking to prove our point and the error of the brother. It is not a bad thing to challenge one another to strengthen one another in the faith. In times past I have had to let go of some pretty bad beliefs. Things I was taught by people I respected. I suppose we all have had those kinds of experiences.

The following is my translation of Daniel 9: 24 - 27. The punctuation is mine along with the capitalization. The words in parentheses are mine and have been added for clarities sake. I have tried to write it in the language that I speak for better understanding.

Seventy weeks are decreed to your people and to your holy city to finish the transgression, to make the end of sins, atone for iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up the vision prophecy and to anoint The Most Holy.

Know and understand from the issuing of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah the Prince (shall be) seven weeks and sixty two weeks; even in the affliction of the times.

After sixty-two weeks Messiah (shall be) cut off. (It) is not to Him, the city or the sanctuary to destroy the people of a coming prince. Its (vision prophecy ) end (shall come) with the flood and until (the) end (of the) war desolations are determined.

He (Messiah) will confirm the covenant with many for one week. In the half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering to cease.

Upon a wing, as abominations, a desolator (will be placed) even until the end. That which has been decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

Here is something for speculation. Who is the desolator placed upon the wing as abominations?

[bar Jonah]

e4e, I concur. The desolator is the Antichrist, and the Tribulation is a future event, as it was cancelled or put on hold almost 2,000 years ago.

[e4e]

RightIdeae4e, I concur. The desolator is the Antichrist, and the Tribulation is a future event, as it was cancelled or put on hold almost 2,000 years ago.

e4e-----Try current events. The abomination has been standing on the temple mound in one form or another for 1900 years. This is a real time prophecy being fulfilled before your very eyes. Yet you wont to assign it to some mithecal 7 year tribulational event. Wake up!:juggle:

[bar Jonah]

Mythical? Daniel's 70th week is far from mythical. Shabua is a 7-year period. This is true for the first 69 weeks.... You think it just turns into 2,000 years or whatever number you feel like for the 70th week?

[e4e]

RightIdea Mythical? Daniel's 70th week is far from mythical. Shabua is a 7-year period. This is true for the first 69 weeks.... You think it just turns into 2,000 years or whatever number you feel like for the 70th week?

The 70th. week is over. past never to come again. There is no brake in the Daniel time line. This is not part of the 70th. week but what happens untell Christ returns and return He will.

[bar Jonah]

Ah, another preterist. Interesting. I hope you're following DeeDee's and my discussion on the Daniel timeline and preterism in Eschatology 101, called "Daniel's 70 Weeks." I suggest it because another non-preterist and I are currently refuting the entire preterist view of the Daniel timeline with a simple understanding of the idiomatic use of Hebrew grammar, thus proving that the Messiah was cut off in the 69th week, and definitely not the 70th week, not to mention that if the 69th week had been completed, the temple would have necessarily been destroyed before the 70th week began, which means the 70th week not only concluded but didn't even start. (Of course, I wholeheartedly agree that it was going to start right after that, in the 1st century... it just never got the chance since God changed His mind when He cut Israel off in reaction to her failing her election.)

[David]

e4e,

You have no timeline and so far only Joel has been honest enough to say that he believbes the Millinium started in 30 Ad meaning it ended in 1030 AD....

If you have some positive input of anything you believe according to time frames post in rather than just saying you don;t agree with mine.

Bring something to the table rather than just being negative. Did I not mention this to you before ...

David

[David]

Right Idea, why do you have a devil as your pic...

Isn't that giving people the wrong idea....

And don;t worry, I am into progress and discernment and won;t be here much longer because I don;t like being called a moronic idiot gazing at my navel as one of the pretersists have called me. I can't blame the rest of you for this, and do hope you chastise him for such name calling.

But Right idea, I am truly tired of persecution and the attacks of people that lose debates on-line with their real attacks to my own Board and lies and trickery against me so as to accuse.

We are suppose to be Christian brethren here discussing the future...me trying to get you to read further and be prepared for the future. That is my honest mtoivation, whatever you say, and I was invited here by DEE DEE personnally and so I came.

But attacks on the homefront mean I have to be leary of what BB I go to, I don;t think you all would have done such a vile deed that has happenned lately, as surely it came from an evolutionists as I am very scientific as I like exactness and I am into the exact words of the Lord via Creation and every which way.

So accuse me as you will, but that was my intent here and if there are no futurist here or studiers of prophecy I shall be on my way.

Yes I think preterism is dumb just as you think prophecy of the future is dumb. So we disagree but I am a Christian and a missionary and have been for 30 years, so rather than attacking me, may I ask you for prayer against my enemies. Thanks.

David

[bar Jonah]

David, you are far from being the only futurist here, and you certainly aren't the only student of prophecy. I am a futurist, after all. The Tribulation is certainly a future event.

Don't let one person's childish behavior get to you. Don't take this the wrong way, but you shouldn't be so thin-skinned. It is inappropriate for people to call others names here. Especially when we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, for goodness' sake. And I commented as much in response to that person's behavior. So let's move on, let bygones be bygones. I hope you will stick around and represent what you believe. Though we are both futurists, I have no doubt we have differences. And I would love to explore those differences, because if we disagree on something, then one of us is wrong... and I don't like being wrong. I see debates and arguments as an opportunity for someone to stop being wrong. :)

[e4e]

There is no milllinium. No thousand year anything. So when am I supposed to say this non-existant thousand years starts. If it does not exist then it never starts NO TIMELINE EXIST

[Theolog]

02-12-2003 @ 07:30 AM
David:
Sorry all, time is of the essense and no time for me personnally to chat with people that don;t know the very basic principle of the Lord.
David


Hello david
I know your time might be short here, you know rapture and all, but I have looked through my Library and can't seem to find "the very basic principle of the Lord". . could you explain it to me please?
Just a sentence or two will do.

That chart must have taken quite some time huh??

[bar Jonah]

e4e, I'm really trying to follow you, honest. But you're making it very difficult when you say things like your last post. There IS unarguably a period of a Thousand Years in regards to eschatology, so when you say there is no period of a thousand years at all, you only end up reducing your credibility. Either you are pretending to be unaware of it, or you are honestly unaware of this basic principle of eschatological scriptures.

Revelation 20:1-7
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (2)He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; (3)and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5)But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (6)Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

(7)Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison (8)and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

There is no thousand years? C'mon, e4e...

[e4e]

In Rev 20, is the word translated thousand singular or plural in the Greek? Check it out.

[Robyn Banks]

02-13-2003 @ 03:30 AM
David:
So let's check out, Daniel's words which were confirmed by Jesus for he gives an exact and precise and concise and mathematical Timeline that is orderly and scripturial.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

and in words

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Daniel9.html

So the question is do you agree or disagree with these numnbers and these references. And what timeline do you have in comparison ?
That's a fanciful interpretation you've got there.

Here is the timeline I have in comparison:
http://www.tektonics.com/prophecy/daniel_chronology.html

Hope that helps.

Robyn

[David]

Right Idea, you have the right idea, because when the Lord says 1000 years, He means a thousand years. When He said there was an Adam and Eve, there was an Adam and Eve and all the lineages in between.

So Yes, there will be a Millinium and thinking it started in 70 AD doesn't make mathematical sense.

Robyn and Thanks for your timeline, I was sure some Preterist must have made up a timeline of somekind....

The beginning Kingdoms up to Rome are easy to understand and we basically only disagree afterwards.....

But if you notice your timeline doesn't give a starting and ending date for the three and a half years of tribulation before the Jews took over the world. Mind you that's strange as they aren;t Christians and haven't accepted the messiah . And they aren't ruling with jesus from jerusalem right now. And Jesus hasn;t come in the clouds, and there has been no Armeggeddon Battle etc. etc.

And NO DATE was goven when this Millinium started...was it a secret .....

[e4e]

Jerry, for your information there is no one thousand in Rev 20. In every case the word is plural and can be understood as an indetermanant number of thousands. There is no case in the 20 chapter of Rev. where the singular form of the greek word for thousands ever occures. That being the case don't you think it is a litte strange that the word should mean singular thousand. The last time I look the plural form of a word ment two or more not one. So where is your one thousand years? Not in that passage.:huh:

[Lizard]

02-27-2003 @ 04:24 PM
David:

Right Idea, you have the right idea, because when the Lord says 1000 years, He means a thousand years. When He said there was an Adam and Eve, there was an Adam and Eve and all the lineages in between.



There have been explanations given as to why the 1000 years is figuative. You need to give reasons why it should be taken litterally. Just saying "when the Lord says 1000 years He means 1000 years" doesn't refute any of the reasons given why 1000 years is not literal. If you insist that everything that Jesus said should be taken litteraly then explain this:

When the Lord says, behold I am coming quickly (Rev. 3:11 & 22:12) He means what? And when the Lord says, this generation shall not pass He means what?

Thank you.

[Ted]

As a newcomer to this thread, I read all four segments prior to commenting. Also, I read the two web pages referred to in the initial segment. After all this, I only saw a couple serious replies to the initial query/challenge. This seems to be a bit disappointing. I will try to remedy this deficiency.

The timeline in question is essentially based on the standard Dispensationalist theory that the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy in Dan 9:24-27 is to be fulfilled in the future. Without considering any of the peripheral issues, this schema is initially based on the following assumptions:

1. The prophecy of Dan 9 stands in isolation with regard to any other prophecy of the book.
2. The various segments (7 weeks, 62 weeks, 1 week: 9:25) of the prophecy are separable.
3. The decree is found in Nehemiah 2 (444 BC).

Every one of these assumptions is INCORRECT.

1. One prior poster did partially address this issue. Put simply, in Dan 8, he has a vision that has two parts. The first (3 beasts) is essentially a repetition of chapter 7. In the Hebrew, this part is called a hazon. In verses 13-14 is a segment with two angels talking. This audition is called a mar'eh in Hebrew. This semantic key is very important.

The segment of the vision that made Daniel sick was the mar'eh. In chapter 9 Gabriel comes to Daniel. In verse 23, Gabriel explicitly says that Daniel is to "understand the mar'eh." In other words, the 70 weeks vision is an explanation of the 2,300 days of 8:14. This is key, and it is EXPLICIT IN THE HEBREW.

The next step was not clearly addressed. In 9:24, Gabriel says that "70 weeks is cut." He does NOT say "decreed." That word is charus (or its variants), and is used in verses 25, 26, and 27. The word in 24 is nechttak. This word literally means "to amputate." In other words, the 70 weeks is "amputated" from the 2,300 days. This leads us to #2.

2. The 70 weeks are "amputated" from the 2,300 days. Whatever THAT period is, the 70 weeks are a single block of it. There is no way to separate the 70th week from the other 69. (The 2,300 days is beyond this thread.)

Further, the 70 weeks are presented as a time of probation for the Jews. (See Daniel's prayer for amplification of this.) A time of probation must be of definite duration, otherwise the probation is meaningless. (There are other Hebrew issues that amplify this.)

The 70 weeks is therefore a single 490 year block of time. Whenever it starts, it will run out in 490 years. There is no segment in the far future.

3. Nehemiah 2 is chosen by Dispensationalists because it is the only place "building" is mentioned. But it has fatal omissions. First, it does not contain a decree. Nehemiah asks to go to Jerusalem to make repairs. Artaxerxes asks what he needs, and Nehemiah receives letters of safe passage and provision. There is no decree of any sort.

Of more importance is the fact that in no way does Neh 2 "restore" Jerusalem. The word for restore (sub) is used over 1,000 times in the OT. In EVERY case, it acts on people. Our modern idea of architectural restoration involving rebuilding is completely foreign to scripture. Restoration requires return of the people and return of self-government. And let us not forget that the first verb acting on "Jerusalem" is "restore."

Since sub acts only on people, Jerusalem is people. But you cannot "build" (banah) people. But this verb can be translated "build up." This means to make more permanent and prominent. If we translate the phrase "to restore and to build up Jerusalem" we have verb and object agreement. We also have specifications that exactly match in detail a true decree in scripture.

If we look in Ezra 7, we find a decree issued by Artaxerxes in 458 BC, but was not able to be enforced until August/September of 457 BC. This latter date is the proper date to begin the 70 weeks.


In short, the 70 weeks begin in 457 BC, extend to Jesus' baptism in AD27 (69 weeks), and end at the covenant lawsuit of Stephen in Acts 7 that terminates the 70 weeks probation for the Jews.

I'm quite sure that many of these issues will require further discussion.

Ted

[Lizard]

Great post Ted. :thumb: Very interesting time line for Daniel. I am still trying to sort out Daniel from a preterist perspective myself.

One question. Where do you place the middle of week 70 (3 1/2 weeks)? At the Crucifiction?

Oh, and sorry for the thread going off topic. That is typical of most threads here at tweb.

Unless specifically requested by the thread starter, threads are allowed to progress (or regress which is more common :no:) in whatever directions they may go. Of course, you always have the option of bringing the thread back on topic. :thumb:

[efta777]

One question. Where do you place the middle of week 70 (3 1/2 weeks)? At the Crucifiction?

I don't want to speak for Ted, but that seems to be exactly what he's doing.

That was a really good post, and if David is still around it will be interesting to see how he responds to this.

[bar Jonah]

03-04-2003 @ 08:55 AM
Ted:
Further, the 70 weeks are presented as a time of probation for the Jews. (See Daniel's prayer for amplification of this.) A time of probation must be of definite duration, otherwise the probation is meaningless. (There are other Hebrew issues that amplify this.)

Ted
On a side note, in relation to this, it's interesting to point out that Jesus told Peter that one should forgive someone 70 x 7 times. Now, being part of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy (not to mention He was God), Jesus darn well knew the tremendous and timely significance of the Prophecy of Weeks at that time. Coincidence?

[e4e]

Way to go Ted. Great Post!:yipee:

[David]

Preterists have no idea when the middle of the week was because no world peace agreement ever happenned signed by ten countries that form a new world order. And 220 days later, the 3rd temple was never constructed. The 70th week starts with the Covenant.

It's Future tense and will happen after the next American war for oil, It will make all come to the peace table from such insane violence and a Covenant will be signed by 10, probably Big 8 and the Israelis and Arabs.

So back to the topic...the exact days and scenario of Daniel that are future tense as it obviously never happenned in the past...and Jesus never came back, and the trumpets never sounded and Armaggeddon never happenned etc. etc., etc.
SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

But if you can;t see it, you were never meant to as you probably aren;t able to read history books or newspapers but just see everything as Jesus and Christians ruling on this peaceful Earth during the preterist Millinium

Got to go...

And if possible do get back to the amzing accuracies of the days of Daniel that match exactly whether in revelation or Daniel...and along which timeline all the Last Days will occur.

Thanks

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Prophecymysteries.html

[efta777]

Ok David...
There's a few things I need evidence for before I can ever take you seriously again:
Give me any Biblical reference to oil, or an American war for oil. Seeing America is vague enough, but oil?
Then, give me Biblical references to back up the fact that in the middle of the 70th week a peace agreement will be signed between ten nations. All I see in my Bible is that he will make a covenant with many, which Jesus did, almost exactly quoting Daniel in Matt 26:28.

Please attempt to convince me that these things are Biblical.

[The Curtmudgeon]

I'm not taking exception with most of your post, efta, as even though you and I are on opposite sides in the Preterist/Futurist debate I have much the same problems with David's timeline and arguments that you point out (i.e., trying to read way too much into the verses). But:

03-08-2003 @ 05:24 PM
efta777:
All I see in my Bible is that he will make a covenant with many, which Jesus did, almost exactly quoting Daniel in Matt 26:28.


For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


The only thing there that can be considered as "quoting" Daniel is the single word "testament"/"covenant", and if use of a single word constitutes "almost exactly quoting" someone then every time someone says "king" they must be "almost exactly quoting" Tolkien because he wrote The Return of the King. Daniel doesn't say a single thing about shedding of blood; if by "remission of sins" you think that Jesus is referring to Daniel's "make an end of sins" I disagree as ending them doesn't remit them. Also, Daniel's 'covenant' is for one seven only; do you believe that Jesus' new 'testament' only lasted for seven years?

The (thank God that it lasts forever) Curtmudgeon

[e4e]

The CurtmudgeonDaniel doesn't say a single thing about shedding of blood; if by "remission of sins" you think that Jesus is referring to Daniel's "make an end of sins" I disagree as ending them doesn't remit them.

e4e---Are you saying that the blood Of Jesus did not make an end of sin. If Jesus did not make an end of sins then the 70 weeks did not accomplish there purpose The seventy weeks are Israel specific and time specific.

Daniel's 'covenant' is for one seven only; do you believe that Jesus' new 'testament' only lasted for seven

e4e--- It was not Daniel's covenant. It was the Messiah who confermed the covenant with Israel for one week and was cut off in the middle of the 70eth week. Jesus made a way and it was not Jesus' fault that national Israel rejected what was definantly provided.:dunce:

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-08-2003 @ 09:08 PM
e4e:

The Curtmudgeon

e4e---Are you saying that the blood Of Jesus did not make an end of sin.

Yes, I'm saying that the blood of Jesus did not make an end of sin. Last I checked, there have been an uncountable number of sins committed since Jesus' crucifixion. I've sinned myself, and I wasn't even alive at the time of His sacrifice. And though I don't want to, I feel quite certain that I'll commit yet more sins before my life is over.

But, His sacrifice has certainly made an atonement for sins, even mine, and has remitted, that is paid the penalty for, all sins, even mine, for those of us who accept Him as personal saviour and accept "the new covenant in His blood" as our atonement.

If Jesus did not make an end of sins then the 70 weeks did not accomplish there purpose

Suppositional argument: you're assuming that Jesus' crucifixion is the termination and sum of the 70 sevens. I contend that that position is not correct, so the fact that Jesus' sacrifice atoned for all sins without ending sin has nothing to do with whether the 70 sevens will have accomplished their purpose when they are completed.

The seventy weeks are Israel specific and time specific.

That much we can agree on! But not the time that they are specific to, obviously.

e4e--- It was not Daniel's covenant.

Sigh. That was simply (and I thought obviously, but apparently not) a shorthand way of saying "The covenant referred to by Daniel" as distinct from "The covenant referred to by Jesus".

It was the Messiah who confermed the covenant with Israel for one week and was cut off in the middle of the 70eth week.

Again, suppositional. I understand that that is part and parcel of the preterist view, but I do not agree with it.

Jesus made a way and it was not Jesus' fault that national Israel rejected what was definantly provided.

Nevertheless, you're avoiding my point: Daniel says that the covenant would be confirmed for one seven; if that covenant is to be identified with Jesus' new covenant in the shedding of His blood, then you have to be arguing that Jesus' covenant was only good for seven years, regardless of whether the Jews rejected it in the middle of the 'week'.

The (and that's one good reason I reject preterism) Curtmudgeon

[efta777]

The only thing there that can be considered as "quoting" Daniel is the single word "testament"/"covenant"

Jesus also says that his covenant is for "Many" which is taken directly from Daniel.
In the Bible, covenants come from God, they never come from the Devil or the anti-christ. Why is it so hard to believe that Christ is the one who makes the covenant with many?


I appreciate your comments, but still await David's answer as to the rest of my question.

[e4e]

The prase, 'an end of sin' does not mean 'the end of sin' An end of sin or sins as one may prefur. relates to the sins of National Israel. Jesus was to provied a covenant of grace instead of a covenant of law. Through Israel's unbelief we as gentiles have been grafted into the covenant of grace that Jesus confermed with Israel for 1 week. Regardless of the fact that Jesus was cut off (crucified) in the medst of that week they were stell the receiptpeants of the gospel for the remainder of that week before thw gosple was sent to the gentiles. I belive that is what is ment. Jesus was to provide a way for sins to be ended. That way I believe you and I have accepted. It is not that sin will be done away with in the world at that time.

The CurtmudgeonNevertheless, you're avoiding my point: Daniel says that the covenant would be confirmed for one seven; if that covenant is to be identified with Jesus' new covenant in the shedding of His blood, then you have to be arguing that Jesus' covenant was only good for seven years, regardless of whether the Jews rejected it in the middle of the 'week'.

e4e--Are you telling me that Jesus did not conferm the covenant of grace wiht Israel for 1 week through His own actions and the actions of His chosen apostles? If Jesus has not done so then what you and I believe is not worth anything and we both will die in our sin and be forever lost.

CurtmudgeonAgain, suppositional. I understand that that is part and parcel of the preterist view, but I do not agree with it.

e4e Why do you insist on calling me a preterist? I am not I am a nowmillinalest and a nowtribulationalest. I am not cought up in excapeism like the futurest.:fight:

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-08-2003 @ 10:36 PM
efta777:



Jesus also says that his covenant is for &quot;Many&quot; which is taken directly from Daniel.

I'll give you that I omitted 'many' when listing the words in common between Daniel's verse and Jesus' statement.

In the Bible, covenants come from God, they never come from the Devil or the anti-christ.

Not all Biblical covenants come from God. Genesis 21:27: And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant. Abraham and Abimelech

Genesis 26:28: And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee; Abimelech & friends and Isaac (note: it's Abimelech and friends proposing the covenant, not Isaac)

Genesis 31:44: Now therefore come thou, let us make a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee. Laban and Jacob (note: again, it's not even being proposed by the 'Israel' side, but by Laban in this case)

Exodus 23:32: Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. Israelites and Canaanites (hypothetical)

I grant you that covenants are very often between God and someone (Adam, Noah, Abram, the Israelites, etc.), but these four examples just from the first two books show that it's not always the case. Certainly, none of these examples involve Satan or AntiChrist (although the Exodus example certainly involves covenants with false gods), but they do show that not all covenants mentioned in the Bible involve God.

Why is it so hard to believe that Christ is the one who makes the covenant with many?

Because (a) the cutting off of Messiah in verse 26 and the covenant with many in verse 27 are two separate events; and (b) 'he' that shall confirm the covenant with many is the 'prince that shall come' whose people destroy Jerusalem.

I appreciate your comments, but still await David's answer as to the rest of my question.

My personal suspicion is that you'll continue to wait some time, as I doubt he has a good answer.

The (but that's as may be) Curtmudgeon

[efta777]

Your comments on covenenents are noted, Curtmudgeon, and I admit that I was wrong.

See DeeDee's posts on Hebraic parallelism on the "Daniel's Seventy Weeks" thread to understand why I don't believe that the covenant has to be by the prince who is to come. Also, I still definately see the parallel between the Daniel covenant and Jesus' statement at the last supper. He was talking to people who knew the O.T. and the prophecies therein and I believe they would have easily recognized that this was the covenant he was referring to.

[e4e]

The prience of the people to come is not the subject of anything but the object of a preposition describing the people. The messiah is the subject and the 'he' in verse 27 is the Messiah.:bonk:

[David]

Brethren,

Remember you and you alone are responsibl;e for understanding the Lord's truths and seeking them out honestly and dilegently, for it is your responsibility with or without help from others. As the onus falls on you and no other, which means you better take it seriously and not play word games out of pride. The Bible is way too serious an issue for that to happen, and playing games with scriptures is what the scribes and pharisees did, but not us, especially when it comes to the future and prophecy, because our very lives are at stake.

So study this timeline of the Last 70 Weeks of Daniel
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TimeProphecy.html

And this expansion of Daniel 9 in words
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Daniel9.html

Understand that America will be leading the world almost into WW3 with its greed for oil, but nevertheless the Lord foresaw it and allows it to fulfill his Prophecy so the Covenant can be signed.
Not a heavenly Covenant but a worldly military political one that is signed by ten nations and allows the thrid Temple to be built.

Study the 3rd temple, study prophecy, study current events, understand the perfifity of nationalism and the insane ways of the false church. study and progress

IMO

David

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-08-2003 @ 11:12 PM
e4e:

The prience of the people to come is not the subject of anything but the object of a preposition describing the people. The messiah is the subject and the 'he' in verse 27 is the Messiah.:bonk:

I've seen this argument time and again, and I really need an expert in Hebrew grammar to explain to me if Hebrew truly is so different from English in this case. I don't know Hebrew, but if we were discussing English (and I realise that we are not) then your argument would be nonsensical.

John took the cookies to Jim; he enjoyed them immensely.

The clear meaning of the English sentence is that "he" refers to Jim, which is the object of the verb in the first clause, not the subject. Pronouns refer back to the nearest corresponding noun (by 'corresponding' I mean same number, same gender), regardless of whether that noun was a subject or object when used (unless, of course, where context can be shown to indicate otherwise).

The (hey, Jim, pass the cookies!) Curtmudgeon

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-10-2003 @ 01:52 AM
David:
The Bible is way too serious an issue for that to happen, and playing games with scriptures is what the scribes and pharisees did, but not us...


Understand that America will be leading the world almost into WW3 with its greed for oil, but nevertheless the Lord foresaw it and allows it to fulfill his Prophecy so the Covenant can be signed.

Sorry, David, but though I am a PreTrib PreMillist through-and-through, the only answer to your statement here is:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Reading "America", "WW3", "greed for oil" into the passage in Daniel is simply playing games with Scripture to make it match your personal political stand.

The (concentrate on what the passage actually says) Curtmudgeon

[David]

Amazingly preterists doctrine seems to stem from ONE WORD, the he is Daniel 9 :27, and they have otally negated all other scriptures in hopes that they have this unclear pronoun connected up right.

Oh well, if they want a past tense doctrine they have the excuse they need.

It's like the snake churches that take one verse, out of the New testament and think they are spiritual by handling snakes in their service.

You get what you want and deserve, and if people can;t see that the vast majority of scriptures from every angle and from all prophets shows there will be a covenant and then a building of the 3rd temple, so be it. They weren;t meant to know and the Lord hasn;t openned their eyes, straight forward and simple

For all the mathematical exact truth is there plain and simple and yet they resort to one word mistranslations to spawn a whole doctrine and whole way of negating prophecy.

Amazing but true, and yet I wouldn;t have believed people would do such a thing, but they have and are and if gives them excuse NOT to know current events or future events...as they have zero oil in their lamps.

Got to go .. must post about the AC and that he is not against church Christians but a fulfmment for them, as well as the Jews and Muslims and New Agers etc. etc. Only the elect will be able to see through him only because they KNOW prophecy.

According to scriptures

David

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Prophecymysteries2.html

Remember don;t make a whole doctrine out of one verse,but make sure all verses corelate and say the same thing. For the Lord is not the author of confusion, and all his prophets spoke about the same things in the future. It isn;t disjointed but cohesive and exact and mathematical, and a clear trumpet that gives us warning.

God bless ...

[The Curtmudgeon]

03-08-2003 @ 11:03 PM
efta777:
He was talking to people who knew the O.T. and the prophecies therein and I believe they would have easily recognized that this was the covenant he was referring to.

And this is exactly where I would say: He was talking to people who knew the O.T. and the prophecies therein and I believe they would have easily recognized that this was not the covenant he was referring to.

What's a mother to do? :no: :teeth:

I understand your position, but I disagree with it; I expect you understand my position just as well, and disagree with it. We'll just leave it there and get on to divvying up the poor sheep in the middle! :thumb:

And e4e, I apologise for mislabelling (but certainly not libelling) you as a preterist; it's just that on this specific point your argument is also a common one for the preterists so I just lumped you in with them. My mistake.

The (must keep labels straight) Curtmudgeon

[Ted]

Since I last stopped by, a number of people commented. Allow me to try to distill the comments.

First, the argument about whether Jesus’ death “put an end to sin” is irrelevant. The statement in verse 24 says, “YOU have 70 weeks to do these 7 things, OR ELSE.” Because of the probationary language, the “or else” is implied. Therefore, whatever Jesus did has no bearing on the satisfaction of these conditions.

Next, 9:24 makes it explicitly clear that the prophecy IS for the Jews. But I must note that this prophecy is NOT for anyone in the ten tribes! Those people had become lo ammi (not my people, cf. Hos 1:9). Therefore the prophecy applies only to the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. This point is often overlooked.

The question is raised about the placement of the cross with respect to the 70 weeks. It’s actually quite easy. First, Dan 9:25 places the end of the 69 weeks at the arrival of “Messiah the Prince.” Several NT passages verify that this is exactly what happened. (See Mark 1:15, John 1:19-24; 4:25, Heb 1:3, 1 Pet 1:20) It is further of note that the story of the Magi in Matt 2 is IMPOSSIBLE unless the end of the 69 weeks was the baptism/anointing of the Messiah. They were absolutely certain as to the identity of the owner of the star. Yet there is no prophecy that points to the time of his birth, unless Dan 9:25 points to his arrival on the scene as a priest (cf. 1 Sam 2:35-36) that would be anointed at the age of 30 (Num 4, 2 Chron 31:15-16).

The next step is to identify “the prince who is to come.” Most people make the erroneous assumption that it was Titus. This won’t work for several reasons. First, Titus was not a prince. Yes, he succeeded to the Roman Imperial throne, but hereditary succession wasn’t the rule, so a priestly title is anachronistic. Second, “the people” cannot refer to an army. In scripture the term always means the populace. But most important, it violates Hebrew grammar.

9:25 says that it will be 69 weeks “until Messiah the Prince comes.” This is the antecedent of “the people of the prince who is to come.” Therefore, “the prince who is to come” is the Messiah! This means that the Jews were to destroy Jerusalem. And this is exactly what happened. The Jews, led by the zealots, revolted against Rome. This revolt led to the Roman Army destroying the city. The Romans did the mechanical destruction, but the Jews were responsible. When we look back at Daniel’s prayer earlier in the chapter, it is quite clear that he holds the Jews responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem in 586BC. Nebuchadnezzar did the physical deed, but the Jews destroyed the city. Both times, Jesus’ people destroyed the city.

9:27 says “he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one week.” The Hebrew is again explicit. This is an existing covenant. The Messiah would not make a new covenant. And of course, there is no Antichrist making a peace treaty with anyone in view. The covenant is God’s covenant with the Jews as his firstborn (cf. Exod 4:22). They were placed in the crossroads of the earth (Isa 4:5-6) as missionaries (Gen 12:3). Jesus came to them to strengthen them for this task. But they refused him. In the middle of the 7 years (see chronology in John 2-5), he was crucified. His disciples continued the ministry to the Jews for the rest of the 7 years. This is the seventieth week. When Stephen brought the covenant lawsuit ending the period of probation, the time was up. The covenantal birthright blessings were forever removed from the Jews. They passed to the entire world in the ministry of the apostolic church.

Just for completeness, the last player is “the one who makes desolate.” This is John, son of Levi, of Gischala in Galilee. He is identified by Josephus as leader of the Zealots. They were the ones who instigated the revolt. John is the “one” who is identified in scripture pars pro toto in place of the entire Zealot group. He swept in “on the wing of desolations.” The Zealots murdered thousands of priests, in the temple, and left them unburied. The rest of the list can wait. He ruled until complete destruction was poured out on him. He stands as the corporate identity of the rebellious Jews in AD70.

There is a simple, easy, scriptural explanation for all of the elements of Daniel 9:24-27. The seventy weeks ended in AD34. The verdict of destruction had been pronounced. The verdict was executed in AD 70. The Dispensationalist timeline depends on a complete misunderstanding of the prophecy. In places it seems to work, but only because the Hebrew is ignored. When the Hebrew is understood, it is impossible to support the Dispensationalist timeline.

[David]

Sorry, exactly and precisely at the end of tribulation, Jesus returns, exactly three and a half days after the two witnesses have been killed. You have no witnesses, no trumpets, no tribulation, no 3rd Temple. Nop covenant, nothing even approximating prophecies.

Just negating sin, negating judgment, negating prophecy and pretending its all over and a third of the world died, and one third burnt up, just a doctrine fabricated from one or two verses.. Amazing amzing, unbelieveable unbelieveable.

But that's your choice and responsibility and hence you have no idea whatsoever as to what is happenning now, because in preterists terms nothing will happen and Jesus is ruling and reigning and you probably think Christians are ruling and reigning now as well.

Amazing

David

[bar Jonah]

David, there are strong arguments for each of the many sides in this issue... but honestly, you seem utterly confused on what the issues actually are.

You are mixing up Daniel's prophecy with the John's Revelation, and apparently assuming they are describing the exact same scenario, when you cannot assume they are the same thing at all. From a preterist view, Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled decades before John even received his Revelation, which described OTHER events that happen much, much later, and have still not occurred. They fully agree with you that the events in Revelation haven't come to pass. They'd have to be flaming idiots to think otherwise...

From a dispensational "semi-preterist" view (like that of an Acts-9er), Daniel's prophecy was Plan A, but it was cut short in the 69th or 70th week when Israel was cut off. (I used to think as Bob Enyart does that it was cut short in the 70th week, but I now believe it was in the 69th, for reasons given elsewhere.) Because this was cut short, God instituted Plan B, which included Paul's new ministry replacing Peter's and the Twelve's, and this Plan B would eventually end with the events of Revelation, which would be the new, future, reinstituted end of Daniel's prophecy.

Either way, you don't seem to know what you're arguing against, because you keep accusing us of things we don't believe in. Yes, we'd have to be imbiciles to think that the book of Revelation was fulfilled 2,000 years ago. It wasn't even written until decades after Daniel's prophecy was scheduled to happen.

So please get to know the issues involved in this debate before spouting wholesale straw man arguments all over the place like a spray of machine gun bullets. It isn't edifying for anyone on any side of the debate, least of all your own.

[Lizard]

03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:

Amazingly preterists doctrine seems to stem from ONE WORD, the he is Daniel 9 :27, and they have totally negated all other scriptures in hopes that they have this unclear pronoun connected up right.

Amazingly you continue to show a total lack of understanding of preterist doctrine. Here are just a few of the many verses used to support the preterist doctrine:

Matthew 16:28 -- There are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.

Matthew 24:34 -- This generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled.

Revelation 1:1 -- The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

Revelation 3:11 -- Behold, I come quickly.

Revelation 22:10 -- The time is at hand.

03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:
Oh well, if they want a past tense doctrine they have the excuse they need.

It's like the snake churches that take one verse, out of the New testament and think they are spiritual by handling snakes in their service.

You get what you want and deserve, and if people can;t see that the vast majority of scriptures from every angle and from all prophets shows there will be a covenant and then a building of the 3rd temple, so be it. They weren;t meant to know and the Lord hasn;t openned their eyes, straight forward and simple

Preterist do not need an excuse we have the clear statements of scripture to back us up. Of course that is what you say as well.
However, when asked to back up your claims with scripture all you have said so far is something along the lines of; it is so straight forward and simple.

Well heck, I'll bite. I just don't get it. Show me from scripture just how "straight forward it is. I'll even make it easy on you. Why don't you use scripture to answer the question that erta777 has already asked:

03-08-2003 @ 06:24 PM
efta777:

Then, give me Biblical references to back up the fact that in the middle of the 70th week a peace agreement will be signed between ten nations. All I see in my Bible is that he will make a covenant with many, which Jesus did, almost exactly quoting Daniel in Matt 26:28.

Please attempt to convince me that these things are Biblical.


03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:
For all the mathematical exact truth is there plain and simple and yet they resort to one word mistranslations to spawn a whole doctrine and whole way of negating prophecy.

Amazing but true, and yet I wouldn't;t have believed people would do such a thing, but they have and are and if gives them excuse NOT to know current events or future events...as they have zero oil in their lamps.


OK. I've provided you with several verses that support the orthodox preterist position. So your allegation shows either gross ignorance of the orthodox preterist position, or intentional misrepresentation of the orthodox preterist position.



Amazing but true, and yet I wouldn't;t have believed someone would do such a thing, but you have and are and if this gives you an excuse NOT to know the orthodox preterist position or NOT to back up your position with scriptural references...as you have zero oil in your lamp.

See, two can play at that game. :tongue:

So far, you have show a total lack of understanding of the preterist position, yet you attack us as ignorant scripture twisters. When asked to show biblical proof of one of your positions (see above quote from efta) your only response is that it is obvious.

It may be obvious to you, but then orthodox preterism is obvious to me. I will be happy to show you scripture to support my position. Will you do the same?


03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:
According to scriptures

David


Which ones? :huh:

03-10-2003 @ 01:02 PM
David:
Remember don;t make a whole doctrine out of one verse,but make sure all verses correlate and say the same thing. For the Lord is not the author of confusion, and all his prophets spoke about the same things in the future. It isn;t disjointed but cohesive and exact and mathematical, and a clear trumpet that gives us warning.


Here we agree. Of course I believe that the orthodox preterist view by far does the best job of correlating escatological scripture. It was the inherent confusion in DF theology that eventually led me to convert to the orthodox preterist position.

You keep saying that orthodox preterism is based on one verse. I have given you several verses that support the orthodox preterist position. If you are going to viciously attack someones position, I suggest that you try to understand it a bit better first.

Your commitment to your position is admirable, but if you want to convince others of your position you need to do more than say that it is obvious from scripture. To me it is not obvious at all. If it is so obvious, then you shouldn't have much trouble providing scripture reference when requested, should you?

I look forward to your response.

[David]

Right Idea,

The right idea is that daniel and revelation are exactly the same talking about exactly the same events and that Daniel and Revelation are not disjointed but harmonic in exact mathematical perfection

It couldn't be simplier to understand.

The days of Daniel are the same as the 1260 days and the times, time and dividing of time and the 42 months.This is the topic of this threrad, that you keep missing with your one word mistranslation of one pronoun . This topic is about the exact days of daniel that match exactly with revelation because they are talking future tense concerning the Last Days that start with the Covenant.

The Bible is not disjointed but harmonic and it fits together perfectly in its scenario, for the Lord is not the author of confusion but of peace in the midst of war, as we are the children of light and not the children of darkness. We have oil in our lamps and are aware of what is happenning.

In His prophetic Service

David

PS) But come on brethren let's make progress and not get stuck on step ONE when we should have progressed and gone way beyond. Mathematically its like being unable to do addition of whole numbers when we should be doing the calculus.

[bar Jonah]

The reason we can't progress, David, is because you are still resolutely refusing to provide a scrap of scripture for your view. If you want to know why we haven't advanced any further than "step 1," look in the mirror. We are here to discuss things such as WHETHER Daniel is talking about the exact same events and timing as the book of Revelation. And your contribution?

"Well, it is, of course! Because it is! It's so obvious, because it is!"

And that doesn't help anyone, least of all you. So do yourself and everyone else a favor and provide scriptural support for your view. Otherwise, the rest of us may be forced to simply ignore your further foundationless potshots...

[efta777]

David,
Please answer my questions that I asked of you which you completely ignored a few days ago.

The most important one being: Give me scriptural proof (No matter how vague) for ANYTHING to do with either the U.S. or OIL. It's such a fundamental part of your doctrine that this should be VERY easy for you and you shouldn't be sidestepping it like you are!

I also take issue with you telling us all to study your timelines to know the truth. I, as a Christian, hereby tell EVERYONE here that if they want to know the truth, ignore ALL of these timelines, preterist or futurist, and search for truth in scripture. Don't read scripture in light of the timeline, read the timeline in light of scripture and refute it if you must. If you don't agree with me on this David, then I refuse to argue with you any longer, and I would implore everyone else to do the same because you would be missing a foundational step in your search for the truth.

So please, just give me a couple straightforward answers to my question without trying to get around them by trash talking preterists.

RightIdea,
I think you have also misrepresented the preterist position unintentionally:

From a preterist view, Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled decades before John even received his Revelation, which described OTHER events that happen much, much later, and have still not occurred. They fully agree with you that the events in Revelation haven't come to pass. They'd have to be flaming idiots to think otherwise...

No, from a preterist view, John recieved his revelation BEFORE A.D. 70 (Read Gentry's "Before Jeruselem Fell" to get a good idea why we can be confident in saying this), and thus, MOST of the events therein (I.E. before chapter 20) have already occured, and are still occuring in the millenial kingdom. So call me a flaming idiot if you must, but I just needed to clear that up and if you want to discuss Revelation with me, out of respect for David, we should do that elsewhere.

In him,

[bar Jonah]

03-11-2003 @ 12:16 AM
efta777:
RightIdea,
I think you have also misrepresented the preterist position unintentionally:

No, from a preterist view, John recieved his revelation BEFORE A.D. 70 (Read Gentry's &quot;Before Jeruselem Fell&quot; to get a good idea why we can be confident in saying this), and thus, MOST of the events therein (I.E. before chapter 20) have already occured, and are still occuring in the millenial kingdom. So call me a flaming idiot if you must, but I just needed to clear that up and if you want to discuss Revelation with me, out of respect for David, we should do that elsewhere.

In him,
No, I don't consider you a flaming idiot... so I think we are talking past each other somehow; I'm not sure how.

Daniel's 70 weeks end long before 70 AD... it was my impression that preterists hold that the destruction in 70 AD is outside of the 70 weeks. I would assume that you believe the 70 weeks ended long before 70 AD... do you not? The difference is an additional 7 weeks time, which obviously don't fit into Daniel's prophecy, no matter what view one holds...

Or am I completely missing something?

[efta777]

Yes, the seventy weeks is outside of revelation, so you are right there, but you said that preterists believe that the events in revelation had not yet taken place, which is untrue. Did I still misunderstand you?

[bar Jonah]

Then you're right, I did misunderstand the preterist view on that specific point. Basically because no one had ever explained that aspect of preterism, and I shouldn't have assumed. I get your point now.

The long and the short of it is that my point to David still stands -- anyone who believes all of Revelation was fulfilled almost 2,000 years ago would have to be a flaming idiot. And on that, I think you and I would agree! ;)

[David]

Totally agree with your Right Idea, Right Idea

For in your words, people that think Revelation is past tense are flaming idiots... I would totally agree with you, akthough they might not like your graphic description of their total mis-interpretation.

And now back to the EXACT Daniel Timeline that has all the EXACT scriptures from Daniel and revelation that exactly match, that so many preterists try to evade, negate and nullify with mere words without any numbers always retreating into their past.

For revelationwise when I posted that exact and precise Timeline there was none of them that could respond...

As for the U.S, in scriptures and history, preterists don;t know current events because they think prophecy and the Lord have no mention of anything happenning today. In other words they are lost in the presense because they don;t know the past or the future.

But let's go over it a bit with them....

Mind you, they will need their minds to advance as it takes study and research..

Oil is presense tense and it came from the past tense, in Iraq it's because the Garden of Eden type vegetation got buried beneath the sands that were deposited by the World wide flood of Noah.

As for America. she is the Whore that gets destroyed by the AC, who comes from an even worse country Russia. Any that read revelation with an open mind see it instantly.

America, the Whore
SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/7KingdomsofMan.html

Follows the 7 previous kingdoms and is fornicating econimically and spiritually with her underlyings and making herself rich. For she is the city system and trade is her game and materialism is her religion. And she is trying to get the whole world to worship it, especially her own ...and its working. Mind you even though many of the American people are against the war, the NWO absolutely needs it, and democracy is and always has been a ploy of words, whereas the real power lies within and hidden. Pity but true.

And if you study current events for more than twenty minutes, you understand the war in Iraq is for oil and power and dominance. That again is a no-brainer that the rest of the world so easily sees despite the ridiculous rhetoric of the Americans.

So to understand revelation and current events and the future, you have to be able to pray and understand the present and even the world's recent history.

The Lord can speak to you on economics, history, politics, and not just religion. If you erxpand your horizons away from religion and away from thinking the Roman Catholic Church is the suprteme evil in the world, you can make progress.

And for further evidence concerning babylon the Whore, consider
http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/TwodestructionsofBabylon.html

Now you are making progress, preterists

Or you can consider some of the Right Ideas from Right Idea

IHS

David

[Lizard]

David:

Yet again we have current events being used to interpret scripture. Personally I use scripture to interpret scripture. I do not use current events to interpret scripture.

:argh:

The following parody is satire, not intended to be taken literally. The purpose is to try to show David how his arguments look to a preterist.

03-11-2003 @ 09:32 AM
AntiDavid:

Totally agree with your Right Idea, Right Idea

For in your words, people that think all Revelation is past tense are flaming idiots... I would totally agree with you, the preterist on this board do not believe that all the events in Revelation are fulfilled, of course David conveniently left out the word all when he quoted you. Showing yet again a gross reading comprehension deficiency and a total lack of understanding of the orthodox preterist position.

And now back to the EXACT Daniel Scriptures that tells us EXACTLY that the 70 weeks end around AD 33 and EXACTLY matches the scriptures Revelation, that so many futurists try to evade, negate and nullify with mere timelines without any scripture always retreating into their current events.

For revelation wise when I requested specific scripture that supported the need for an exact and precise Timeline David was unable to respond...

As for the U.S, in scriptures and history, David don’t know the scriptures because he thinks prophecy and the Lord have everything to do with happenings today. In other words he is lost in the present because he don’t know the past and thinks he knows the future.

But let's go over it a bit with him....

Mind you, he will need his mind to advance as it takes study and research..

The temple of the first century is destroyed in the present tense and it came from the tribulation of AD 70 in the past tense, it's because the Jesus came in judgment against the Jews for rejecting their Messiah.

As for the Anti Christ, David cannot show one place in scripture that mentions a single "The Anti-Christ". Any that read revelation with an open mind see it instantly.


SEE http://www.tektonics.org/eschback01.html

Furthermore the word antichrist is never once mentioned in the book of Revelation. Nor is any of the other blather that David has posted thus far, for if it were, surely David would be able to give a scripture reference which he has been requested to do many time, but has thus far has been unable to provide.

And if you study scripture for more than twenty minutes, you understand the war in Iraq is not mentioned at all. That again is a no-brainer that the rest of the world so easily sees despite the ridiculous rhetoric of David.

So to understand revelation you have to study the Bible. To understand current events you must study the newspaper. To know the future, you have to not die.

The Lord can speak to you on economics, history, politics, and not just religion. If you expand your horizons away from current events and away from thinking preterism is the supreme evil in the world, you can make progress.

And for further evidence concerning preterism consider
http://www.tektonics.org/olivet01.html

Now you are making progress, David.

Or you can consider some of the Right Ideas from DDW



This does not represent my opinion of David, nor of his position. This is a parody of David's "arguments" only. Any derogatory comments or references were meant purely as satire to make a point. No offense was meant.

[David]

Faramir,

Thanks for reposting my comments, as that part of your reply made sense....as for the rest, you may have to shake your head.

Hoping to hear better things from you in the future

IHS

david

Remember all this thread is about the future and Not about the misconceptions of preterism that doesn;t understand curent events nor the future. Get your thinking hats on, and see the math and exact number of days between events as dictated to the Prophets ... Daniel and John

Check each of the scriptures given and notice the EXACT match.

SEE http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Danieltimeline.html

[bar Jonah]

David, here at TheologyWeb, we don't make broad and vague claims and then throw up a link, expecting people to go to some other website for what you should really be providing here.

Instead of shoving people off to some other place, you should be providing scriptural support HERE. And until you do, I'm afraid people will still refuse to take you seriously...

I have yet to see one single verse from the Bible published here in support of your views. Not even one!

[e4e]

I wont to thank you guys for making me study and dwell on the word a lot more concerning this subject.

I am presently consedering the notion that the destruction of the temple was not the great tribulation spoken of by the prophet Daniel. I just don't think it holds up very well. Also the great tribulation as a sepreate 7 year period does not hold up ether.

I have some ideas that I will share later.

To you personally David. Dont be so dogmatic that you ignore the evidence when your possission is challenged. We are here to learn and I hope you consider the evidence when presented.:read:

Yours in Christ e4e

[bar Jonah]

03-11-2003 @ 01:23 PM
e4e:

I wont to thank you guys for making me study and dwell on the word a lot more concerning this subject.

I am presently consedering the notion that the destruction of the temple was not the great tribulation spoken of by the prophet Daniel. I just don't think it holds up very well. Also the great tribulation as a sepreate 7 year period does not hold up ether.

I have some ideas that I will share later.

To you personally David. Dont be so dogmatic that you ignore the evidence when your possission is challenged. We are here to learn and I hope you consider the evidence when presented.:read:

Yours in Christ e4e
Amen, E4E.

Do I understand you correctly, that you are considering the "semi-preterist" view of some dispensationalists, then? That Daniel's prophecy of weeks was supposed to be completely fulfilled almost 2,000 years ago, but was cut short?

Just curious. :smile:

[e4e]

RightIdea Do I understand you correctly, that you are considering the "semi-preterist" view of some dispensationalists, then? That Daniel's prophecy of weeks was supposed to be completely fulfilled almost 2,000 years ago, but was cut short?