The Apostles Creed

[Das Gort]

In our church we recite the Aposltes Creed congregationally, which I think is great. But then there is that part "he descended into hell", which, to me, communicates that Jesus went to a physical or spiritual hell. When this is looked at and explained by the leaders in my church it has been said that Jesus didn't necessarily go to hell with Satan and all, but that he went through the equivalent of hell on the cross.
Well, that might make some sense but if that is what we believe then why don't we say "He went through hell on the cross"? If that's the case, then we are being misleading. But then I recognize that this creed has been around for a while, so there's something to it. I feel like I got a lame response from my very intelligent Presbyterian Pastor.

What do you guys think, I could use a little help sorting this out.:help:

[GrayPilgrim]

Das Gort:
In our church we recite the Aposltes Creed congregationally, which I think is great. But then there is that part "he descended into hell", which, to me, communicates that Jesus went to a physical or spiritual hell. When this is looked at and explained by the leaders in my church it has been said that Jesus didn't necessarily go to hell with Satan and all, but that he went through the equivalent of hell on the cross.
Well, that might make some sense but if that is what we believe then why don't we say "He went through hell on the cross"? If that's the case, then we are being misleading. But then I recognize that this creed has been around for a while, so there's something to it. I feel like I got a lame response from my very intelligent Presbyterian Pastor.

What do you guys think, I could use a little help sorting this out.:help:

First on the nature of creeds. Let us remember what creeds are. they are static formualtions of our dynamic faith used for teaching purposes. Let me unpack that mouthful, i.e. dispense the fog (;)). When we look at creeds we need to remember that like letters they are "occasional documents". That is a certain situation arose in the early church which was addressed by a particular creed. So we would say that the Definiton of Chalcedon and Nicene Creeds arose out of hte occasion of Arius questioning hte nature of the Godhead. Therefore when we read "begotten not made" as a critique of Arius' misaprehension that unique (monogenhs) meant only begotten (monogennatw) and thus the definiton is responding to Arius' (there is when he was not). So that is to answer what I see to be an underlying tension that needs ot be addressed, the "occasional nature" of creeds.

Historically following the comments 1 Peter 3:19-20:

in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (ESV)

This difficult passage has been interpreted multiple ways. The one prominent inthe early church was that it referred to captive spirits in hell. As this was an early reading of hte text on hte occasion when the creed was developed it appears that this was the interpretation that held sway.

I know all I have done is answered why it says it, but I hope this will start the discussion a little.

GP

[dizzle]

From what I understand the phrase "hell" was a late addition and an example of lack of clarity on the term "hades" meaning simply the abode of the dead. When I participate in Via de Cristo functions and we read aloud the Lord's Prayer, we say "He descended to the dead."

[smilax]

http://www.reformed.org/documents/Christ_in_hell/index.html.

[geebob]

I moved this to religion forum.

It seemed a little out of bounds for theology 101 (which sort of the arminianism/calvinism/etc. forum)

[GrayPilgrim]

Actually, not to be in a thread bouncing mood, but I wonder if Liberal Arts might not be better as Das Gort is not asking for debate but rather definition and clarification of an issue.

[Jin-Roh]

I've alwasy been under the impression that it was added due to the quasi-doctrine of Christ going into to hell and wrestling away the keys of our souls from Satan or something like that.

Its a creed not scripture.

(was raised Catholic)

[phantaz sunlyk]

**7** say hey Das--

What do you guys think, I could use a little help sorting this out.

**8** what the Creed means in asserting this is merely that Christ truly died and entered sheol, which was the common lot of all humans prior to the Rez. to say that he descended into hell is bound to be misleading. Dee is right when she changes it to "he descended to the dead".
the later understanding of this (i.e., that Jesus went down and, while in the realm of the dead, proclaimed the gospel to the righteous dead 'in Abrahams bosom' and led them into heaven), influenced by a questionable exegesis of 1 Pet. 3:19f, must be dealt with cautiously.
what can be certainly affirmed, however, is that the Apostles Creed intends for us to understand that Jesus, as man, truly experienced the deepest aspect of human separation from God when he died, thereby redeeming it and making our redemption possible as well.
peace.

[Bishop Potts]

:angel: I believe exactly what the creed says, because in the scrpitures it says that Christ descended to the very pitt of the Earth to set the captives free and came out the victor over death and the grave and with Him brought back the Keys to Hell and the Grave. So yes, I blieve without a shadow of a doubt that Christ did indeed descend t hell, the actual place. :deal:

[Ric]

Das Gort:
In our church we recite the Aposltes Creed congregationally, which I think is great. But then there is that part "he descended into hell", which, to me, communicates that Jesus went to a physical or spiritual hell. When this is looked at and explained by the leaders in my church it has been said that Jesus didn't necessarily go to hell with Satan and all, but that he went through the equivalent of hell on the cross.
Well, that might make some sense but if that is what we believe then why don't we say "He went through hell on the cross"? If that's the case, then we are being misleading. But then I recognize that this creed has been around for a while, so there's something to it. I feel like I got a lame response from my very intelligent Presbyterian Pastor.

What do you guys think, I could use a little help sorting this out.:help:
The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ,
His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy catholic [1] church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.

1. The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The "He descended into hell." was added to the creed in the fourth century, and a lot of churches have omitted that line from the creed today.

The best way to understand the He descended into hell. part is that Jesus was placed into the earth (into the grave), it does not really mean Jesus went to the actual "Hell".

I can get very technical on this subject, but like most churches I too omit the He descended into hell. part.

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

According to the Westminster Catechism (I forget which, shorter or larger) it means "that Christ truly died."

[zonetscape]

In our church we recite the Aposltes Creed congregationally, which I think is great. But then there is that part "he descended into hell", which, to me, communicates that Jesus went to a physical or spiritual hell. When this is looked at and explained by the leaders in my church it has been said that Jesus didn't necessarily go to hell with Satan and all, but that he went through the equivalent of hell on the cross.
Well, that might make some sense but if that is what we believe then why don't we say "He went through hell on the cross"? If that's the case, then we are being misleading. But then I recognize that this creed has been around for a while, so there's something to it. I feel like I got a lame response from my very intelligent Presbyterian Pastor.

What do you guys think, I could use a little help sorting this out.:help:
Ask your Presbyterian Pastor to explain where and when did Jesus get the Keys from hell, which is stated here in Revelations:
Revelation 1:18 (Read all of Revelation 1)

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Here is another passage that you can present to him to explain:
Ephesians 4:9-10 (King James Version)
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill [1] all things.)

You brought some good points and I tink it behooves you to address them with your Pastor. that way you will not feel cheated or robbed of your belief and common sense and not only that, it could prevent you from losing respect for him!!

[Sir-Think-A-Lot]

If I recall correctly, one early Christian tradition held that rightious souls prior to Jesus's lifetime wernt allowed into Heaven(because the perfect sacrafice hadnt been offered yet), so they went to hell, but when Jesus died he went down to hell to take them to Heaven. The phrase 'Decended into hell' of the Apostles Creed is a reflection of this belief.

[zonetscape]

If I recall correctly, one early Christian tradition held that rightious souls prior to Jesus's lifetime wernt allowed into Heaven(because the perfect sacrafice hadnt been offered yet), so they went to hell, but when Jesus died he went down to hell to take them to Heaven. The phrase 'Decended into hell' of the Apostles Creed is a reflection of this belief.

There is a parable that Jesus uses about the beggar Lazarus and the rich man and in this pararble, the rich man in hell could see Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom in Paradise or Heaven. This was spoken prior to Jesu' death burial and ressurection. We must search the scriptures for truth. I pray this helps. Remember Jesus took away the power of dread and fear from death by his ressurection power!!! Thank God for Salvation!!! Creeds and codes are rituals and things to say; Apostleship is a lifestyle and a spiritual gift to the body of Christ!!

[Tladatsi]

This is called the "Harrowing of Hell". It is described by Paul and Peter. After Jesus died, He descended into hell (katelthonta eis ta katôtata). Jesus descended into hell to preach to the dead so that the righteous dead might have salvation along with the living. This story is told in 1 Peter 3:19-20 and elipically in 1 Peter 4:6, 2 Corinthians 2:14 (if Sheol is included in "everyplace"), and Ephesian 4:8-10 (if we take that his ascent is from hell and the captives are the dead). In apocryphal book the Gospel of Peter, Jesus leads a column of dead souls back to Earth on Easter Sunday out of the tomb where He had laid as a prequel to the general resurrection.

The ancients did not believe the hell we think of it today. The underworld was called Sheol. Both the good and evil spent eternity there, sleeping. The dead were neither rewarded nor punished in the afterlife - or aftersleep and are unaware of the world above.

In our church we recite the Aposltes Creed congregationally, which I think is great. But then there is that part "he descended into hell", which, to me, communicates that Jesus went to a physical or spiritual hell. When this is looked at and explained by the leaders in my church it has been said that Jesus didn't necessarily go to hell with Satan and all, but that he went through the equivalent of hell on the cross.
Well, that might make some sense but if that is what we believe then why don't we say "He went through hell on the cross"? If that's the case, then we are being misleading. But then I recognize that this creed has been around for a while, so there's something to it. I feel like I got a lame response from my very intelligent Presbyterian Pastor.

What do you guys think, I could use a little help sorting this out.:help: