Romans 12:6 - The Case for Atheism?

[Tladatsi]

Pauls says

Be honest in your estimate of yourselves, measuring your value by how much faith God has given you.

Paul also says that -

So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Finally, Paul tells us that -

So receiving God's promise is not up to us. We can't get it by choosing it or working hard for it. God will show mercy to anyone he chooses.

So, if God has given us our faith and judges us by the faith that He alone has given us, it follows there is nothing we can do to receive "God's Promise".

Does this mean that Atheists are without faith in God because it is God's will that they have no faith in Him?

[Soyeong]

Did you forget about Romans 12:6?
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
I believe in Roman 9:16 Paul is talking about God’s justice and mercy and not about faith. Either way, it is not by our own effort that we gain faith, but by seeking God.

[Tladatsi]

I believe in Roman 9:16 Paul is talking about God’s justice and mercy and not about faith. Either way, it is not by our own effort that we gain faith, but by seeking God.

My point is, Paul says God gives us faith in God (Romans 12:3). It follows that if someone does not have faith in God, it is because God did not give that person any faith in God. From this it would follow that if an atheist has no faith in God, it is because God did not want that individual to have faith. Ergo, atheist are atheist because that is how God wanted them to be.

[Soyeong]

God could want an atheist to have faith, but He could also prefer that the atheist seek Him first.

[Tladatsi]

God could want an atheist to have faith, but He could also prefer that the atheist seek Him first.

In Romans 9:16 Paul says

"So receiving God's promise is not up to us. We can't get it by choosing it or working hard for it."

I think that would cover "seeking out God". Paul says "God will show mercy to anyone he chooses".

In any event, tf the atheist had no faith in God, why would he seek Him out?

[Soyeong]

Works in the Bible generally refers physical things such following laws, performing sacrifices or rituals, etc, to somehow earn salvation for yourself. We cannot choose to have salvation, but we can choose to accept it as a free gift through no work of our own. Seeking God is a mental and spiritual process that does not require work.


In any event, tf the atheist had no faith in God, why would he seek Him out?
I think it would start by an atheist becoming an agnostic or at least open to the possibility that God could exist. If they are not open to that idea, then whatever a theist says will probably sound like nonsense to them. After that, there are various things that can lead them to believe that maybe there is something to Christianity.

For example, I’ve heard testimonies from people who have been doing drugs for most of their lives. They had been to countless rehabilitation centers to no avail. Then they were sent to a Christian rehabilitation center and were introduced to Christ. After believing, they were completely set free from their addiction with none of the usual withdrawal symptoms. Sometimes atheists decide to read the Bible to support for their atheism and only end up realizing that it is true. Some atheists come to realize that Christians can be just as intelligent as they are, and yet they still have reason to believe. The list of reasons goes on and on, but at some point they begin to think that it might be likely that God could exist. From there, the next step is to seek God out and up to Him to give you faith.

[Tladatsi]

You are not hearing what I am saying (or writing).

Atheists have no faith in God. Paul says that God gives us our faith in God. It logcially follows that that Atheists have not faith in God because God gave them no faith in God. If God wanted athteists to have faith in God, He would have given them faith in God. Lacking faith, atheists do not look for God.

Atheists are atheists because God wants them to be atheists. At least that is the implication of Romans 12:6.



Works in the Bible generally refers physical things such following laws, performing sacrifices or rituals, etc, to somehow earn salvation for yourself. We cannot choose to have salvation, but we can choose to accept it as a free gift through no work of our own. Seeking God is a mental and spiritual process that does not require work.


I think it would start by an atheist becoming an agnostic or at least open to the possibility that God could exist. If they are not open to that idea, then whatever a theist says will probably sound like nonsense to them. After that, there are various things that can lead them to believe that maybe there is something to Christianity.

For example, I’ve heard testimonies from people who have been doing drugs for most of their lives. They had been to countless rehabilitation centers to no avail. Then they were sent to a Christian rehabilitation center and were introduced to Christ. After believing, they were completely set free from their addiction with none of the usual withdrawal symptoms. Sometimes atheists decide to read the Bible to support for their atheism and only end up realizing that it is true. Some atheists come to realize that Christians can be just as intelligent as they are, and yet they still have reason to believe. The list of reasons goes on and on, but at some point they begin to think that it might be likely that God could exist. From there, the next step is to seek God out and up to Him to give you faith.

[Soyeong]

It logcially follows that that Atheists have not faith in God because God gave them no faith in God. If God wanted athteists to have faith in God, He would have given them faith in God.
Perhaps God wants atheists to have faith, but he has not given them faith because they do not want it or seek it?


Lacking faith, atheists do not look for God.
It is true many atheists are content not to look or even think about God. However, as evident in these forums, there are many atheists who are interested in talking about God and a few that know more about God than some Christians. In trying to counter God, some atheists can find God. You don’t have to be looking for God in order to find Him.


Atheists are atheists because God wants them to be atheists. At least that is the implication of Romans 12:6.
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
What implications do you think this verse has on this thread other than being in the title?

[Tladatsi]

Perhaps God wants atheists to have faith, but he has not given them faith because they do not want it or seek it?

But that is what the text says. Paul's letter to the Romans says God gives us our faith in God.


It is true many atheists are content not to look or even think about God. However, as evident in these forums, there are many atheists who are interested in talking about God and a few that know more about God than some Christians. In trying to counter God, some atheists can find God. You don’t have to be looking for God in order to find Him.

That all well may be true. However, what I am talking about is what Paul says in Romans 12:3 (OK, I am busted, The titles is wrong, it is Romans 12:3 not 12:6). "...measuring your value by how much faith God has given you.."

If God has given us our faith in God, it fallows those without faith in God were not given faith in God by God. The faithless are faithless because God so wills it.

That seems to be the implication of Roman 12:3.

[Soyeong]

I’m not sure if we’re communicating on the same level. The issue seems to be around why God decides to give people faith. I say He gives people faith because they seek it. You say the faithless are faithless because God so wills it. Why doesn’t God will that they have faith? Because they do not seek faith. If they would seek faith, then they would be given faith. Why don’t they seek faith? Because they don’t believe it is possible for God to exist. Why? That’s up to them. There are any number of reasons to believe that God does or does not exist, none of which can be empirically proven. Ultimately, it is up to you to pick one of those reasons. If the reason you picked is in favor of God existing and you seek to gain faith, then God will give you faith. You keep wanting to pin the blame on God for not giving faith to those who don’t seek it. However, since it is your decision not to seek it in the first place, then the blame lies squarely on your shoulders.

[Tladatsi]

OK, we are communicating.

I don't necessarily disgree with you personally. However, what you describe is not what Paul said.

In Romans 12:3 Paul says that we must evaluate ourselves based on how much Faith God has given us. Make sober judgements about ourselves based on the amount of faith God has imbued us with. He then goes on to say to use that amount of faith to the best of your ability.

He does not say, if you have little faith, seek out God to get more.

In Hebrew 11:6 the author (who was not Paul someone who thought as Paul did). "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

One must be a God-believer and a believer that God is a rewarder of God-seekers before one can seek Him out.

It seems that Paul and the author of Hebrews thought that one must first believe in God to seek God out. Neither argued in any of their letters that ones faith is increased by seeking God.


I’m not sure if we’re communicating on the same level. The issue seems to be around why God decides to give people faith. I say He gives people faith because they seek it. You say the faithless are faithless because God so wills it. Why doesn’t God will that they have faith? Because they do not seek faith. If they would seek faith, then they would be given faith. Why don’t they seek faith? Because they don’t believe it is possible for God to exist. Why? That’s up to them. There are any number of reasons to believe that God does or does not exist, none of which can be empirically proven. Ultimately, it is up to you to pick one of those reasons. If the reason you picked is in favor of God existing and you seek to gain faith, then God will give you faith. You keep wanting to pin the blame on God for not giving faith to those who don’t seek it. However, since it is your decision not to seek it in the first place, then the blame lies squarely on your shoulders.