Is lying ever justified?

[Shadow Phoenix]

I'm at the mall today to meet my parents. My grandmother wants to buy me some shoes and I personally need them. My folks though also want me to go to the stores with them and mark down Christmas wish items, particularly this new Christian bookstore with books $5 or less.

My father and I leave my Mom at one point and go off to get the shoes. She returns later carrying a cardboard box. I only have one question then. "What's in the box?" I get the answer of "None of your business." Of course, that tells me enough. She's done some Christmas shopping. (Why she didn't take it to the car is beyond me.)

This leads me to a point I wonder about lying. I know the stories about the Hebrew midwives and Rahab in this case. However, I wonder if there are some times being less than honest could be justified on a smaller scale. Of course, I prefer in many cases not giving the whole truth, but there are some cases I wonder about. If a friend was throwing me a surprise birthday party for instance and I asked him if he was, seeing as my friends the joy of a surprise for me, is he wrong to say "No?" On a lesser scale, when someone asks me how I'm doing and I don't want to really tell them, is it wrong to say "Fine," on a bad day instead of "Absolutely miserable."?

Any thoughts on when lying might be justified?

[Soyeong]

No, it is never right to lie. In the case of the Hebrew midwives, the Lord is blessing the midwives’ rescue of the children, rather than any falsehood they told. God in His mercy blessed them in spite of the lie, rather than because of it. With Rahab, God never condones her lie, but He does forgive it. Rahab’s life is spared in response to her faith. As to the lesser lie, I do not think it is a lie not to tell the full truth.

I read an excellent article on this topic here. (http://www.inplainsite.org/html/is_it_ever_right_to_lie.html)

[Crow]

Any thoughts on when lying might be justified?

Yup. I can think of plenty. I had an instance last night at work.

A senile woman in her 90s approached me and asked if her mother was going to be OK. I said "yes." Momma, of course, is dead and I don't consider dead to be necessarily OK.

In addition, if.....

A four year old kid asks me if his recently deceased grandma is in heaven. I will say "yes" even if I am well aware that grandma was the greatest unregenerate heathen ever known to mankind.

A Nazi comes to the door and asks if there are any Jews hiding in the basement. If it's 1943 and I'm living in Germany, the answer is "Heil Hitler, no, of course not!" even if there are three dozen down there holding Sabbath services.

The guy I love asks me if he still looks good wearing glasses and now that he's gone bald and has false teeth and has put on fifty pounds. "Yes." He still looks good to me although I know that by most people's standards he looks like a hot mess.

*******

I am proud to be an accomplished liar in situations where lying out of love is the right thing to do.

[Soyeong]

I am proud to be an accomplished liar in situations where lying out of love is the right thing to do.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

This verse and many others throughout the Bible makes it clear that lying is evil. Furthermore, there are no conditional phrases where lying can be justified under any circumstances, no matter how difficult they may be. In those examples you gave, at no point were you ever morally obligated to give an answer to those questions. As stated in the article, there are times in the Bible where God told someone not to be entirely truthful.

Well, in 1 Samuel 16, we have a perfect example of this point. Samuel, the prophet, is instructed by Jehovah to go to Bethlehem for the express purpose of anointing another king over Israel. Understandably, the prophet was concerned about King Saul learning of his mission because he was afraid Saul would have him killed. Knowing something about the character of Saul, we have every reason to believe that Samuel was not just being overly cautious—Saul was certainly the kind of man who would kill to protect his throne. But, in order to allow Samuel's primary purpose to go undetected, Jehovah devised a stratagem (i.e., a cleverly contrived scheme to outwit the enemy and gain an end). The Lord told Samuel to take a heifer with him and say: "I have come to sacrifice to the Lord" (verse 2). Then we are told:

So Samuel did what the Lord said, and went to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said, "Do you come peaceably?" And he said, "Peaceably; I have come to sacrifice to the Lord. Sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice" (verses 4 & 5a).

I think you will agree with me that Samuel did not tell the whole truth. Although what he said was true, it served to conceal his primary purpose, which, if discovered, would most assuredly not have been considered peaceful by the elders who questioned him. In other words, if Saul had known what was going on, he probably would have been trying to kill not just the prophet, but he would more than likely be wanting to execute any in the town he thought to be accomplices. Therefore, otherwise critical information was being withheld from the elders, and they would not have thought the prophet's visit peaceful.
So in the example of living in Germany, I don’t think it would be lying because there were no Jews actively hiding – they were all holding Sabbath services.

[Crow]

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Hmm. I've done or attempted to do all of those in one form or another at one time or another in the course of my lifetime. Kinda makes the lying issue a moot point.

So in the example of living in Germany, I don’t think it would be lying because there were no Jews actively hiding – they were all holding Sabbath services.

Lemme see if I've got your position straight. I think that what you're saying is that God doesn't consider untruthfulness lying if it's not technically lying. Is that a fair assessment of your position on what the scriptures are telling us about lying?

[Johnny MacManky]

Perhaps a definition of lying would help. No, I'm not going to even attempt a definitive definition.

I do not consider it unreasonable to suggest that, in the example concerning the Jews, even if they actually were hiding and were not holding their Sabbat service, it would not be a lie to state that there were no Jews hiding.

Perhaps motive and circumstances, rather than literal actions, are a better indicator if a lie is being perpetuated.

...to add: Lying is never justified, but not every 'non-truth' is lying.

Just my tuppence worth. (THat's a lie, I didn't pay anything to post this.)

[Darth Executor]

1Kings 22:21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.'
1Kings 22:22 And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.'
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

[A-Man]

Yup. I can think of plenty. I had an instance last night at work.

A senile woman in her 90s approached me and asked if her mother was going to be OK. I said "yes." Momma, of course, is dead and I don't consider dead to be necessarily OK.

In addition, if.....

A four year old kid asks me if his recently deceased grandma is in heaven. I will say "yes" even if I am well aware that grandma was the greatest unregenerate heathen ever known to mankind.

A Nazi comes to the door and asks if there are any Jews hiding in the basement. If it's 1943 and I'm living in Germany, the answer is "Heil Hitler, no, of course not!" even if there are three dozen down there holding Sabbath services.

The guy I love asks me if he still looks good wearing glasses and now that he's gone bald and has false teeth and has put on fifty pounds. "Yes." He still looks good to me although I know that by most people's standards he looks like a hot mess.

*******

I am proud to be an accomplished liar in situations where lying out of love is the right thing to do.

+1
:duh: Nothing like a bit 'o common sense here.

[Soyeong]

Perhaps a definition of lying would help
The article I linked in the 2nd post made a distinction between Webster’s definition of lying and the Bible’s definition. According to Webster, to lie is "1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive; 2: to create a false or misleading impression" (Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary 1981). If the second definition were true, then not only did Samuel lie, but God instructed him to do so. James 1:13 says, “When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.” Therefore, creating a false or misleading impression is not necessarily a lie. Another example was when God told Joshua to wait in ambush. An ambush is by definition deceptive, so everything that is deceptive is not necessarily lying either. So, according to the Bible, telling a lie is not justifiable under any circumstances, but hiding the full truth your enemy is not necessarily lying.

Lemme see if I've got your position straight. I think that what you're saying is that God doesn't consider untruthfulness lying if it's not technically lying. Is that a fair assessment of your position on what the scriptures are telling us about lying?
Before I read the article, I thought intentionally not telling the full truth could be considered lying, but now I’m not sure how else to explain the examples of Samuel and Joshua.

Hmm. I've done or attempted to do all of those in one form or another at one time or another in the course of my lifetime. Kinda makes the lying issue a moot point.
I was not trying to say that lying is worse or any less forgivable than any other sin. My point was that lying will always remain a sin no matter what circumstances you bring up to justify it. Even if you thought it was better to lie to the 4-year-old than remain silent, it is still something that you should ask forgiveness for.

[Crow]

The article I linked in the 2nd post made a distinction between Webster’s definition of lying and the Bible’s definition. According to Webster, to lie is "1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive; 2: to create a false or misleading impression" (Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary 1981). If the second definition were true, then not only did Samuel lie, but God instructed him to do so. James 1:13 says, “When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.” Therefore, creating a false or misleading impression is not necessarily a lie. Another example was when God told Joshua to wait in ambush. An ambush is by definition deceptive, so everything that is deceptive is not necessarily lying either. So, according to the Bible, telling a lie is not justifiable under any circumstances, but hiding the full truth your enemy is not necessarily lying.


Before I read the article, I thought intentionally not telling the full truth could be considered lying, but now I’m not sure how else to explain the examples of Samuel and Joshua.


I was not trying to say that lying is worse or any less forgivable than any other sin. My point was that lying will always remain a sin no matter what circumstances you bring up to justify it. Even if you thought it was better to lie to the 4-year-old than remain silent, it is still something that you should ask forgiveness for.

So let me ask again--do you believe that God is OK with deception as long as it's not technically lying?

Or is it the reason for deception that makes something evil?

I come from Quaker stock on my father's paternal side. A number of our forebears and our kin lied their butts off in the process of helping runaway slaves escape to freedom, and if you think about it, stole in the process too. I'm very proud of my lying thieving ancestors. I believe that they did a wonderful thing by lying and assisting in the theft of the legal property of slaveowners. I hope if I am ever in a similar situation I would have the guts to do the same, and I'll even pray to God to help me do it.

[dizzle]

I am with Crow on this one but I don't debate the issue. Johnny also had it pegged that not all untruths are lying. The Biblical sin of lying is the withholding of truth from someone who has the right to have it.

Nazis wanting to kill the Jews in your basement do not have the right to have it.

A Pharaoh who wants to murder babies does not have the right to have it.

Contrary to what was stated here God did not condemn the midwives' untruth. He blessed it.

This subject causes way too much heat among the brethren IMHO. For the record I have never faced a situation that I can think of in my life where untruth would be justified (excluding literal acting, practical jokes, sports, etc). But I do think such situations can exist.

Here is a great article on the point

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5432

[Crow]

A Pharaoh who wants to murder babies does not have the right to have it.

Contrary to what was stated here God did not condemn the midwives' untruth. He blessed it.


I believe that He blessed it as well. They put their own lives at risk to save innocent babies. That is a pretty awesome act of courage and love.

[Johnny MacManky]

Auntie Crow raises an interesting point that, faced with similar circumstances, God would give us the strength and courage to 'lie'. :thumb:

[Soyeong]

Here is a great article on the point
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5432
Thanks for posting the article. I think the main point was that we are occasionally morally obliged to do something that would normally be considered sinning if the higher moral good was served. In addition, we are normally obliged to obey the government, but if they tell us to disobey a higher command of God, then we are morally obliged to disobey them instead.

I agree with the point on how the Bible relates to the government, but I’m not so sure about the first point. I don’t think that anyone is ever morally obligated to do or say something that is not of God. Some people feel that is something they should do, such as with helping slaves escape, or with the Hebrew midwives, but they still have a choice in the matter. God may bless what happens as a result of your faith, but it in spite of your lie and not because of it. On the other hand, I think it takes more faith to trust God and tell the truth anyway because He is just as able to make good come as the result. However, ultimately whatever we discuss will fall short when you are faced with one of these situations. At that point, it is between you and God what you think the best decision is and how you deal with the consequences.

[Sparko]

not to mention that the bible speaks about "bearing false witness" which to me is more of a legal term, where you lie to cause harm to another's person or reputation.

I agree with what Darth Xena said. Lying to protect the innocent from evil is perfectly valid and is not a sin.

[YoungOne]

Sometimes I think its choosing the lesser of two evils. Yes, lying is a sin no doubt about that. However, must we lie to prevent a bigger evil of murder or rape. As I've heard a philosophy prof once say choose the less evil and then repent afterwards. Another example would be if say somebody came to came to rape and murder your kids and then you ended up killing that person in self-defense. Would it be wrong for you to let the person kill and rape your wife while you stood by? Is it wrong to kill another person? Both answers are yes. Decide which is the lesser evil and then repent.

[Sparko]

Sometimes I think its choosing the lesser of two evils. Yes, lying is a sin no doubt about that. However, must we lie to prevent a bigger evil of murder or rape. As I've heard a philosophy prof once say choose the less evil and then repent afterwards. Another example would be if say somebody came to came to rape and murder your kids and then you ended up killing that person in self-defense. Would it be wrong for you to let the person kill and rape your wife while you stood by? Is it wrong to kill another person? Both answers are yes. Decide which is the lesser evil and then repent.

But it is NOT wrong to kill in self defense. Killing is justified (and even commanded) in many cases, such as self-defense, war, capital punishment, etc.

I don't think lying to protect someone's safety is a sin at all either.