Youth Gift Book Project Updates

[jpholding]

Hey folks,

I just came back from a great meeting with a big time mover and shaker, and he's pumped about a project idea I got. I need some focus-group style feedback, especially from students and parents of students, but anyone can chine in.

The idea is to produce a "gift book" to give to high school seniors before they go off to college, which will fortify and prepare them for challenges to their faith.

Some questions I need feedback on:

* What subjects should definitely go in something like this? (Think, what Tekton articles? Not the whole things, but the subjects. I can always add references to the text "for more information".)
* How should it be presented? My mover/shaker was keen on use of toons to liven things up, but how far should this go? Do we turn this into a manga-style deal? Or just use a few illustrations? (Hey, can you imagine Sheila debunking critics of the NT in manga-style format? :hehe: )

I may think of more questions but I wanted to get started with this.

[themuzicman]

Are you looking to provide them with material to respond to professors who challenge their faith, or just to have them understand the kinds of falsehoods they will be taught about their faith?

[Darth Executor]

* What subjects should definitely go in something like this? (Think, what Tekton articles? Not the whole things, but the subjects. I can always add references to the text "for more information".)


Well, I can think of two "musts":

1. Jesus Myth. Most atheists really aren't very bright so they're quite likely to fall for this crap because it's "common sense".

2. Some info on the type of language that biblical writers are likely to use. If somebody knows that, for example, the ancients liked to talk in extremes, that "killed every single one" doesn't actually mean killed every single one, that praying to Jesus doesn't turn you into Q, etc. then they will be able to see through 99% of the contradictions that are thrown at them.

Stuff like the TIF would be nice too, but I think the other 2 should have priority.


* How should it be presented? My mover/shaker was keen on use of toons to liven things up, but how far should this go? Do we turn this into a manga-style deal? Or just use a few illustrations? (Hey, can you imagine Sheila debunking critics of the NT in manga-style format? :hehe: )

I may think of more questions but I wanted to get started with this.

I think your usual writing style would be good enough to get most people to pay attention. :teeth: I wouldn't use toons at all. As far as I can tell, most kids heading to college have the same attention span that I do (in other words, not very big :teeth:) and you want to pack as much information as possible. Not only that but if they end up showing it to their skeptic challengers they will have to take comments like "ha ha, you get your info from children's book you stupid Christian".

[jpholding]

Are you looking to provide them with material to respond to professors who challenge their faith, or just to have them understand the kinds of falsehoods they will be taught about their faith?

Both would be nice.




I say Chick tracts is the way to go.

Is that the format you used for your autobiography? :hehe:


Not only that but if they end up showing it to their skeptic challengers they will have to take comments like "ha ha, you get your info from children's book you stupid Christian".

I can see where that might work to advantage if it comes complete with citations to scholars like Wright and Witherington. :wink: But after all, the same atheist will cite Wikipedia as a source too.

[Darth Executor]

I can see where that might work to advantage if it comes complete with citations to scholars like Wright and Witherington. :wink: But after all, the same atheist will cite Wikipedia as a source too.

Yeah, but wikipedia doesn't have bunnies in it. :tongue:

[Piebald]

What subjects should definitely go in something like this?


Subjects you think haven't been covered by other "for teens" Christian books. Most I've seen have already dealt with things like relativism.

I think adding at least a section to how to properly read the bible (hermeneutic) would be wonderful.

And also "argument from outrage" stuff.

[JB]

Hmm, this is a tricky question. Let me see if I can think of a few things I might recommend:

1) Copycat theory. Maybe just limit the primary discussion to Mithra, Dionysus, the fabulous Egyptians, and Buddha, but I suspect those would be almost borderline likely to show up somewhere to confront a college Christian at some point.
2) Definitely an section on understanding basic principles for Scriptural interpretation.
3) Early dates for the NT/reliability of the NT is something I'd recommend having at least something on, personally.
4) Dealing with the ideas of folks like Spong and Borg, particularly as regards Jesus, the resurrection, the Gospels, etc. Those two names particularly pop to mind because my college chaplain recommends them both so highly. :eww:

Those are a few that readily spring to mind for me.

As for the format, I'd say feel free to use some toons, but sparingly. The plus side of the toons would be to catch some attention, but, like Darth noted, I can see atheists attempting to discredit the book on that basis. Maybe have each chapter followed by a brief comic in which a Hearthstone character summarizes the basic points in a mini-dialogue with a skeptic, and then another couple of panels at the beginning of a chapter to introduce the new topic creatively? :shrug: That way the students might be inclined to pay attention enough to at least get the main points, and it would aid some with visual learners. Furthermore, it'd keep the comics from distracting from the text as they might if tossed in throughout.

[Frogwarrior]

Actually, Chick tracts are a good idea!


Specifically, how to deal with "guilt by association" when people try to stupidly lump all Christians in with the Crusades, Jack Chick, that guy that hates gays, etc.

[TuckEverlasting]

For the toons, I think it would be great if you just sprinkled 'em here and there (I'm a big fan of 'one-frame'-type cartoons, like The Far Side, or what have you.) I see what others are saying about them making the book look silly, but I mean, what kind of book are you planning? Do you want this to be a really big deal, like Josh McDowell (yeah, I know :nc:)-scale, or is it gonna be like the Mormon Defenders-scale?

As far as subject matter goes, I like what others have said... I just think it's important to get the idea out there that apologetics even exists. A couple of years ago I was in a small group bible study, and one week the leader asked me to prepare a little thing on apologetics, because he knew I was into 'that kind of stuff'. In my own experience, most college Christians don't even really know that stuff like you write even exists ---> definitely include a list of web and book-based reading resources.

[Bill the Cat]

Some stuff on Semitic Totality and the Trinity. Oh, and a warning not to read Till

[Darth Executor]

Some stuff on Semitic Totality and the Trinity. Oh, and a warning not to read Till

Why? Getting them to read Till is one of the best ways to turn people from atheism for good. :wink:

[Abykale]

Hey folks,

I just came back from a great meeting with a big time mover and shaker, and he's pumped about a project idea I got. I need some focus-group style feedback, especially from students and parents of students, but anyone can chine in.

The idea is to produce a "gift book" to give to high school seniors before they go off to college, which will fortify and prepare them for challenges to their faith.

Some questions I need feedback on:

* What subjects should definitely go in something like this? (Think, what Tekton articles? Not the whole things, but the subjects. I can always add references to the text "for more information".)
* How should it be presented? My mover/shaker was keen on use of toons to liven things up, but how far should this go? Do we turn this into a manga-style deal? Or just use a few illustrations? (Hey, can you imagine Sheila debunking critics of the NT in manga-style format? :hehe: )

I may think of more questions but I wanted to get started with this.

Having attended a liberal university for two years, I have some ideas.
There are several things I've heard multiple times, including:
-the claim that the Trinity wasn't around until the council of Nicea. Seriously. Actually, you should probably include your entire article on The Da Vinci Code, since just about everyone has read it and even many of my Christian friends consider it one of their favorite books (I cannot fathom why, especially since these are very bright people).
-the modern idea of "tolerance". Especially, the way "do not judge" is misinterpreted to support things like homosexuality. (Homosexuality is a *very* hot topic right now.) Also there's the "forcing your beliefs on others" thing.
- "Christians are sexist, fascist, homophobic bigots!" Definitely address the definition of love. But also there's somewhat of a focus on all the historic wrongs supposedly caused by Christianity. The idea is that if you believe that you're right and everyone else is headed for hell, things like the Inquisition naturally follow.
- "Christianity is intellectual suicide!" Nobody I know in real life has even heard of The God Who Wasn't There (although the Christ Myth should still be addressed); The God Delusion, on the other hand, is depressingly popular. The proper definition of faith is one of THE most important things to address, since a huge number of Christian kids have it wrong.
- The Gnostic Gospels. Yet another gift from Dan Brown. No need to go into detail about them, just explain how we know which gospels are authentic. Keep in mind that postmodern kids believe "the winners write the history books". This could probably be lumped together with the other DVC stuff.
-"If homosexuality is an abomination, so is eating shellfish!", etc. Something tells me that kind of arguing is only going to become more popular.
-maybe address some commonly misunderstood passages. For example, "turn the other cheek" as an argument for pacifism.

I expected to have only a few things in this list, but it keeps getting longer! These are all things that I've heard from fellow students -- I think the idea that challenges to faith come from liberal professors is a misconception. Then again, I haven't taken any religion or philosophy classes.

As far as presentation goes, it'd be easier to form an opinion if I could see a sample, but I'm thinking you should go with more text. Maybe start and/or end each topic with a short strip summarizing it. Comics are more fun to read, but people might not know what to make of Sheila at first. They're also not used to having serious information introduced in manga format (unless they read Chick tracts . . . ).

[JSDileo]

Hey folks,

I just came back from a great meeting with a big time mover and shaker, and he's pumped about a project idea I got. I need some focus-group style feedback, especially from students and parents of students, but anyone can chine in.

The idea is to produce a "gift book" to give to high school seniors before they go off to college, which will fortify and prepare them for challenges to their faith.

Some questions I need feedback on:

* What subjects should definitely go in something like this? (Think, what Tekton articles? Not the whole things, but the subjects. I can always add references to the text "for more information".)
* How should it be presented? My mover/shaker was keen on use of toons to liven things up, but how far should this go? Do we turn this into a manga-style deal? Or just use a few illustrations? (Hey, can you imagine Sheila debunking critics of the NT in manga-style format? :hehe: )

I may think of more questions but I wanted to get started with this.
I would say that you should probably have the copy cat theory, the Christ myth theory, some information about the dates of the gospels; some of the critical information about Jewish traditions (like what Darth said about hyperbole), and maybe some of the basic contradiction-refuting material (horse stalls of King Solomon, for instance).:yes: Also include the TIF, and possibly the article about Jesus and God's wisdom (since the trinity is a concept that is frequently attacked by the less-educated skeptics of our day).

Good project, JP. :thumb:

[Frogwarrior]

I was thinking, merely knowing good subject matter is one thing. But when it comes down to it, when you have someone spouting the Christ-myth theory in your face, who obviously is delusional...
What kind of delusions will people have, and how should those be addressed? Not just, how do they show their delusions. But, knowing how to show the Christ-myth theory for the idiocy it is is excellent, but also being able to tell why people actually beleive such things, and to call them on that, may be even better.

[jpholding]

I'll look these replies over in detail later, but wanted to put a note here of a reader's email suggestion to cover slavery, alleged Christian atrocities, alleged Bible contradictions, and science-related matters. I'd naturally have to call on someone else to help me with the latter.

[Teallaura]

Evidence for Christianity as opposed to other religions. If I'd known a fraction of the evidence as a freshman that I know now, I wouldn't have become an atheist.

I agree with the atrocities and Crusades thing as well.

[Leonhard]

The only thing I would really like zing at is the whole "Christianity was made to control people" or the whole idea of christianity being a profit making machine.

[Teallaura]

... or the whole idea of christianity being a profit making machine.

It would be hysterical to then sell the thing...


:eek:

[aikidoka]

Perhaps

Explain what hell really is
At least note that the logical problem of evil has been dealt with (Plantinga)
The fallacy contained within comparative religion classes
Seriously ridicule the (ir)rational responders criteria for proving Jesus existed
Recommended reading for further study

[aikidoka]

and/or

List the genres and what books fall into them and what that means. It would be nice to have a nice chart to make memorization of the info easy. But I guess that would be covered in hermeneutics.

[Sheepdog]

going back to my experience in college, i'll have to say it would be hard to be comprehensive without being mountainous.

i ran into Mormons for the first time in college. i'm sure JW's come up here and there.

my suggestion is to do what you do best Holding: focus on foundational issues and general objections. maybe focus a bit on liberal theology for good measure. not everyone runs into the evil professor who wants to destroy your faith. i never did myself.

[jpholding]

I've decided to put together about three sample chapters, so that my backer can have something to work with and also so that I can get some feedback on the specific method.

I'll do them on:

Elisha and the Two Bears
The Copycat Thesis
The Christ Myth

The first one won't take long. I may have it up today or as late as Wednesday.

These are excellent suggestions, everyone. Thank you.

[jpholding]

http://www.tektonics.org/elishabears.doc

Hey, this didn't take long at all on this one. But this is an idea for a format -- one opening toon, and a casual, breezy, accesible explanation. Thoughts?

[Bill the Cat]

http://www.tektonics.org/elishabears.doc

Hey, this didn't take long at all on this one. But this is an idea for a format -- one opening toon, and a casual, breezy, accesible explanation. Thoughts?
Very nicely done. It was a good read, not too long, but not too vague. If the rest of the chapters are like this, I'll be sure to order some for our Youth Pastor to distribute.

:thumb:

[aikidoka]

http://www.tektonics.org/elishabears.doc

Hey, this didn't take long at all on this one. But this is an idea for a format -- one opening toon, and a casual, breezy, accesible explanation. Thoughts?

I like it. As to the age of the "kids" and their intent, I was recently a victim of an attempted robbery by at least 5 in that age range. After striking me once in the back of the head and then backing off they then tried to surround me. They didnt get anything but the cop later told me it doesnt matter if they're kids a person should defend themselves in a situation like that. He didnt need to tell me and fortunately I managed to avoid being surrounded and needing to get violent myself, but if there were at least 42, I think anyone would be glad if a couple of bears came along and chased them off.

[Jnthn]

Hey folks,

I just came back from a great meeting with a big time mover and shaker, and he's pumped about a project idea I got. I need some focus-group style feedback, especially from students and parents of students, but anyone can chine in.

The idea is to produce a "gift book" to give to high school seniors before they go off to college, which will fortify and prepare them for challenges to their faith.

Some questions I need feedback on:

* What subjects should definitely go in something like this? (Think, what Tekton articles? Not the whole things, but the subjects. I can always add references to the text "for more information".)
* How should it be presented? My mover/shaker was keen on use of toons to liven things up, but how far should this go? Do we turn this into a manga-style deal? Or just use a few illustrations? (Hey, can you imagine Sheila debunking critics of the NT in manga-style format? :hehe: )

I may think of more questions but I wanted to get started with this.
I think it'd be useful to cover some general as well as specific topics. On the general side of things stuff like critical thinking, logical fallacies, research strategies would be a good starter as well as anecdotes from (credible) Christian figures about their time in further education.

In terms of presentation, all I can suggest is on the matter of style - a lot of the set texts will be quite po' faced, so facts tempered by humour and a dash of irreverence will make things readable

J

[jpholding]

Very nicely done. It was a good read, not too long, but not too vague. If the rest of the chapters are like this, I'll be sure to order some for our Youth Pastor to distribute.

Some will inevitably have to be longer (like the Christ myth one) but I do plan to keep it as short as can be made; also, I forgot to do this, but I'd also provide URLs for more reading.



Showed it to my 17 year old.

And I see, true to Daddy's form, he didn't have an answer to the points at hand, so he had to change the subject to, "Gurp! A miracle!" :hehe:

[JB]

http://www.tektonics.org/elishabears.doc

Hey, this didn't take long at all on this one. But this is an idea for a format -- one opening toon, and a casual, breezy, accesible explanation. Thoughts?

:thumb: Good job, JP. Clearly and simply written (maybe not simply enough for some individuals out there, but in their case, neither is Dr. Seuss), with a very nice opening toon. It may even be short enough to hold my peers' attention spans.

[NJon]

I'll tell you something that definitely needs to be covered: the wrath of God in the OT. You have done this very well on your website, of course, but it is an absolute necessity for such a book. One of the most common objections I hear at my university is about how the God of the OT is vengeful and cruel, and His military commands are unjust (killing children, unarmed civilians, etc. --- the usual objections) When skeptics look at God in the OT and Christ in the NT, they don't see the same God. Separating the two is a fabrication of their minds, true, but if we're seeking on grounding people in the faith, it's an issue which needs to be covered.

As for the science bit you were talking about, I'm sure AiG would be willing to help if you dropped them a line. Of course then you're going into a completely new field of apologetics --- creation evangelism --- on which a number of very specific books exist (as you know), but if you are going to touch on that field, AiG is the place I'd recommend starting.

You've been given a lot of great suggestions on here, but you need to be careful to not try and hit too many things at once. If you do, the final product will likely be not in-depth enough in any given subject and perhaps be excessively large.

Oh, and one last thing: teach to share the Gospel effectively, because far too many Christians don't know how to explain it. The fall, the depth of sin, the perfect and holy nature of God and His justice, who Jesus truly is, repentance and faith, etc.


Godspeed on the project, JPH.

[AgentJTP9]

Mr. Holding

As a Senior myself, I would like to inform you of some things you might find helpful while writing this material. An issue that I would point out is accesability and application of the information. So many times, I hear fellow students with a oh so common complaint: "How does this apply to anything?,etc." It's more or less apathy that gets to students. It really is a symptom of the Anti-Intellectual culture.Sadly, not everyone comes to the table with a layman's working knowledge of philsophy, theology, etc. therefore, I would focus on the wording of the material, avoiding "big words". If you have any more questions or would like more imput from people of my demographic, feel free to contact me via Email or AIM.

[Pate]

As for the science bit you were talking about, I'm sure AiG would be willing to help if you dropped them a line.

However, my suggestion would be that the book shouldn't be dogmatic on the issue of the age of the earth. I might even suggest that the possibility of theistic evolution should be mentioned, but I do realize that this might be "too liberal" for a big part of the targeted readers (or more likely, for their parents). Neither would I empasize the issue of Biblical inerrancy as a matter of life and death to Christianity.

But I guess the validity of these suggestions depends largely on a strategical decision as to whether the book purports to:

a) Provide the readers with a variety of different ways to reconcile their faith with what they're going to learn in college.
or
b) Press a particular apologetic viewpoint more aggressively and with greater detail.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that issues like creationism and inerrancy shouldn't be defended. I just think that it takes a lot of pressure off from the college newbie, when (s)he realizes that it's not the end of the world (or even the end of his/her faith) if it turns out that some of his/her beliefs aren't only under fire in the secular educational world, but even seem to be taking a few hits now and then. This will help the reader to take a calmer and more reasoned look at the issues.

BTW, I love that drawing in the sample chapter (and the content was fine too). :teeth:

[Spheniscine]

But I never could understand how theistic evolutionists reconcile evolution of all life via natural selection, with the core Christian principle of a good world turned bad by human sin that needs salvation?

[Algesan]

http://www.tektonics.org/elishabears.doc

Hey, this didn't take long at all on this one. But this is an idea for a format -- one opening toon, and a casual, breezy, accesible explanation. Thoughts?

I like this and since I like making other people work......

This story would fit into a class type format, appropriate for a 30-45 minute presentation and I've been looking over a lot of your work to cut down into that framework. On the formatting front, would it be economical of time to keep it in short, punchy chapters, if need be putting together an overview chapter before needing more detailed ones.

For example, using TIF, a quick overview chapter with factor + 1-2 sentence summary (little small, but you can grow a little from that target and be okay) and then some follow on chapters to cover some of the factors (like #1, the crucifixion) in detail. Ok I don't quite like what I wrote below, but it'll do for an example.

Factor #1--Who would buy one crucified?
1 Cor 1:18
1 Cor 15:12-19
Crucifixion was an obscenity to the ancient world and not mentioned in polite society, so much so that the Bible has one of the best accounts of a crucifixion from history. The Greeks, Romans and Jews all felt anyone so degraded was scum of the earth who had nothing of value to say and should not be followed. Also, how stupid could anyone be to think that God, the ultimate creator of the universe, would come down and die such a obscene death? What could change this? The truth and evidence of the resurrection could and did.

Hey, cool, since all those crazy old Christian dudes let themselves be fired up for Nero's garden parties rather than recant, just so JPH could make some crazy green two millenia later, we should make it work. This way you can sell a short version (for students) with links to online resources and then expand it to a full size reference version for the class leaders and those too lazy to go online. WOOT!

[aikidoka]

I'll have to agree with the suggestion about God's wrath in the OT. I get that all the time from teens and young twenties on myspace. The latest twit responded to one of Miller's articles on the issue of genocide with a website that merely repeated the charges and also, in large text, has the Isaiah 45:7 verse about God creating "evil". His only response beyond that was to say - in other words genocide is ok for God.

:brood:

[AgentJTP9]

Having attended a liberal university for two years, I have some ideas.
There are several things I've heard multiple times, including:
-the claim that the Trinity wasn't around until the council of Nicea. Seriously. Actually, you should probably include your entire article on The Da Vinci Code, since just about everyone has read it and even many of my Christian friends consider it one of their favorite books (I cannot fathom why, especially since these are very bright people).
-the modern idea of "tolerance". Especially, the way "do not judge" is misinterpreted to support things like homosexuality. (Homosexuality is a *very* hot topic right now.) Also there's the "forcing your beliefs on others" thing.
- "Christians are sexist, fascist, homophobic bigots!" Definitely address the definition of love. But also there's somewhat of a focus on all the historic wrongs supposedly caused by Christianity. The idea is that if you believe that you're right and everyone else is headed for hell, things like the Inquisition naturally follow.
- "Christianity is intellectual suicide!" Nobody I know in real life has even heard of The God Who Wasn't There (although the Christ Myth should still be addressed); The God Delusion, on the other hand, is depressingly popular. The proper definition of faith is one of THE most important things to address, since a huge number of Christian kids have it wrong.
- The Gnostic Gospels. Yet another gift from Dan Brown. No need to go into detail about them, just explain how we know which gospels are authentic. Keep in mind that postmodern kids believe "the winners write the history books". This could probably be lumped together with the other DVC stuff.
-"If homosexuality is an abomination, so is eating shellfish!", etc. Something tells me that kind of arguing is only going to become more popular.
-maybe address some commonly misunderstood passages. For example, "turn the other cheek" as an argument for pacifism.

I expected to have only a few things in this list, but it keeps getting longer! These are all things that I've heard from fellow students -- I think the idea that challenges to faith come from liberal professors is a misconception. Then again, I haven't taken any religion or philosophy classes.

As far as presentation goes, it'd be easier to form an opinion if I could see a sample, but I'm thinking you should go with more text. Maybe start and/or end each topic with a short strip summarizing it. Comics are more fun to read, but people might not know what to make of Sheila at first. They're also not used to having serious information introduced in manga format (unless they read Chick tracts . . . ).


She pretty much sums up what you will hear in High School, and what you will discuss more In-Depth in College. Really hit hard on the social issues, with things like Relativism, Biblical "racism and misogyny", Christian "Intolerance" things of that nature, that is extremely crucial.

Keep in touch if you need to test the waters some.

[Muhd]

At a secular college, they make sure to promote the values of "tolerance" and "diversity". Christians are thought of as "homophobes". You should probably have a chapter on these issues.

Also, I would love to see something that talks about the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.

BTW, I am a college student

[sc_q_jayce]

I sent you an E-Mail.

[jpholding]

I sent you an E-Mail.

Got it. I'll answer later.


It's funny to watch SoundlyBeaten pretend to be Steve Irwin. :hehe:

[Trout]

Yo, Holding, I think you need to include that article on choosing good sources.

[TuckEverlasting]

Just a minor point on the Elisha article, JP - this may be a purely personal thing that no one else cares about, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway:

It's good, but - in a way, I don't care for the style, in the sense that you're using a lot of phrases like 'could have', 'may have', etc. To me, a believeable apologetic convinces me that you're offering the most likely interpretation of the text, not just a possible interpretation. 'Could have', 'may have', sounds spineless: 'Well, golly, 42 boys just hanging out could have been, like, up to no good, or something,' - that's unconvincing. Tell us that, yes, in fact, the explanation that is clearly the most likely is that this was the equivalent of a street gang.

To me, phrases like, 'Gee, this is what might have happened', smack of desperation, and the end product is apologetics that I find hard to buy: 'Well, come on, the Lamanites might have come across the Atlantic in little leather and styrofoam boats!' 'Jesus could have been a space alien!' :duh:

[Trout]

Yo, Holding, I think you need to include that article on choosing good sources.

Hey, that's just what I was thinking!

[Gojiberry]

J.P.,

On the subject of teens and college students using sources like Wikipedia, the Encyclopedia Brittanica, etc., include a little note in your book about how such popular encyclopedias usually contain out-of-date scholarship with respect to (extra-)biblical issues, e.g. concerning what scholars say about the Tacitus and Josephus passages that mention Jesus and corroborate the Gospels. (Recall the refutation you and I wrote of Kyle Williams, how he kept citing encyclopedias.)

[The Blues Bros.]

I think "Calculated Contempt" would serve as a possible introduction: http://www.tektonics.org/af/calcon.html

CC would also delineate the difference between your book and, say, philosophical apologetics books.

The "Jesus Myth" is essential because it's my impression that many college students face arguments like this from skeptics.

[Mister900]

What subjects should definitely go in something like this?

Hey jp, I love your site. I'm 16, and in high school. There are a few subjects I recommend you to put on your tract. The Da Vinci code and the idea of a "church coverup" are a must. I hear that same ahistorical mantra repeated over and over again. Most people my age seem to be under the impression that the Catholic Church is conspiring to keep the truth about Christianity from the world, and has been conspiring to do so for the last 2000 years. The Christ Myth (http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html) is another one. The 'Jesus Mythers' seem to have the student body convinced that Jesus never existed and that Christianity 'borrowed' from pagan religions (http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html) (another must). You could also mention the alleged "contradictions" in the bible and link to your site where you refute them. I also recommend you mention the texual reliability of the NT (http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nttextcrit.htm), the dates and authorship of the gospels (http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/gospdefhub.html), and an explanation of the trinity (http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html).

Anyway, good luck :teeth:

[dizzle]

those are great topics Mister

[CarlosG]

I think this book will fit a nice niche that is missing from the other "Christian going to College" books like University of Destruction and How to Stay Christian in College (have you read those BTW?).

My suggestions:
-Chapter on some sort of "Street Debate" tactics, IE how to deal with certain types of people and situations and how to spot shoddy arguements.
-Chapter on how to properly research topics that the students are having problems with (A similar suggestion has already been made)
-Science is probably going to be the overarching topic they will deal with, it seems to be the biggest thing that atheists will use in formal debates so given the trickle down effect of people like Dawkins and co, something should be said about the current topics like Memes, Evolution, the Mind-Body debates.
-The Christ-Mythers are spreading similar to the DaVinci deal so definitely a nice big chapter on that, maybe some nice graphs with the similarities and dis-similarities and the implications
-I would definitely throw in the common objections to every topic covered so people arent blindsided and can think of at least partial responses.
-The Christiant biggotry charge is pretty hot right especially since everyone is all emo in college now :lol:
-Something has to be said about the late great "Q" document that has been popping up more and more now.
-Maybe a chapter that has a few paragraphs on some of the major Theist/atheist players and what their claims to fame are
-I really like the following articles off your site (which is great btw) and this they should be somehow incorporated into chapters:
http://www.tektonics.org/af/calcon.html
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html
-I think the "Answers in a Nutshell" series should be spread around the book like "sidebar" type dealies. This is where you can incorporate your comic charaters.

Good Luck!

[Sir-Think-A-Lot]

I imagine most of theses have already been said(I'm still on the first page) but I can think of a few absolute must subjects:

-The Impossible Faith(or a shortended version thereof)

-proper definition of faith

-some information on Biblical culture(a verision of your Japanese-Biblical culuture would be great)

-Principals of harmonization

-information of textual criticisam

-Date/authorship of the Gospels

-The PRoblem of Evil.

-The Christ myth

-The copy-cat Christ theories

-DaVinci Code and other similar 'Jesus was married' theories.

Well I'd say those are your absolute musts. Other areas that you might want to cover could be 'Q/Marcian priority,' logical fallicies and/or 'argument by outrage', The Gnostic Gospels, the JDEP theory(some might consider this an absolute must), the nature of heaven/hell(especially hell) and Eschetology. It'd also be entertaining to see a verision of your 'Bogus Quote Parade'

[jpholding]

Here's another sample chapter, on the pagan copycat thesis:

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat.doc

Maybe SoundlyBeaten will show up and whine about how the "mental connotations" of the word "parallel" are used by me to hide the real truth that Mithraism was a source for Christianity. :hehe:







The IQ level of SoundlyBeaten's other thread on this has taken a precipitous dip downward for the people on his side, especially with Snarf doing his usual "duh" rotuine, but I have some comments.

First of all, parallel uses of the word to refer to things like tearing open shoulders does not in the least establish that a baqa' is always a serious injury. The object AND nature of the action is what tells us that, not the mere word itself. That's why it is important to include such uses as a chick breaking out of an egg. That's why it is ridiculous to say, "any time the word applies to humans it is something bad" to the level of opening shoulders. Linguistically, that's a laugh riot. It may be serious relative to the object (eg, a finger with a baqa' is serious for the finger, not the person) and thus "scratch" (as used in the context, thank you, of a BEAR CLAW!) is completely acceptable, SoundlyBeaten's mental paranoia problems with "connotation" aside.

In this case, the contextualization we have -- that of the mode of bear attacks, and the only realistic scenario whereby 42 people were injured -- tells us that there is no way the word meant uniform infliction of serious damage. Inevitably it takes the idiocy of the likes of SoundlyBeaten to suggest that the bears were given supernatural abilities to chase or hold down people, or suggesting that the 42 constanty trampled or bumped into each other like some sort of large-scale Three Stooges routine, as a way of preserving their misotheistic rendering of the text.

Second, it's far from impressive to cite someone like Gleason Archer as saying that the bears "mauled" or even killed these people. Archer is a fantastic guy but he isn't a naturalist and it is doubtful that he has any knowledge of bear behavior. My own sources are such as these:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0424_060424_bears.html


A hunter was attacked and seriously injured by a black bear Saturday on a road just outside Olympic National Park in Washington State.

The incident follows a black bear attack nine days earlier that killed a six-year-old girl in the Cherokee National Forest in Tennessee.

Some experts say the bear attacks may be a sign of a growing clash between humans and the wild.

"I think it is probably just a matter of there being more bears and more people in bear range than ever before," Joe Clark, an ecologist with the U.S. Geological Survey, told the Associated Press.

But Lynn Rogers, director of the Minnesota-based North American Bear Center, points out that only a few of the killings have occurred in the eastern United States, which has by far the most bear-human encounters.

Bear attacks are "freak occurrences" and remain exceptionally rare, he says.

"The attacks that do happen are predatory, unprovoked attacks that are uncharacteristic of black bears, which are basically timid," Rogers said.

One in a Million

According to news reports, the hunter, whose name wasn't released, was attacked late Saturday by a black bear near Forks, Washington. The bear reportedly dragged the man away from the site of the attack before a second hunter shot and killed the animal.

The injured hunter suffered a fractured arm and a broken hand, Larry Evans, a shift supervisor for the Washington State Patrol office in Bremerton, told the Associated Press. He said the victim lost a significant amount of blood but was expected to survive.

Nine days earlier, on April 13, six-year-old Elora Petrasek of Clyde, Ohio, was killed when a bear attacked her as she was swimming with her mother and two-year-old brother near the Chilhowee Recreation Area near Cleveland, Tennessee.

That fatality is among only 12 cases of black bears killing humans in the contiguous United States in the last century, according to the North American Bear Center in Ely, Minnesota.

Forty-five other black bear killings have been reported in Canada and Alaska in the same period.

With more than 750,000 black bears in North America, "only one black bear out of … over a million becomes a killer," Rogers said.

He adds that people are more than a hundred times more likely to be killed by bees in the United States than by a black bear.

Timid by Nature

Some bear experts warn that bear attacks may increase as more people visit and live in remote areas, where bears are not used to humans.

Rainer Brocke, a retired professor of wildlife biology at the State University of New York at Syracuse, says places where bears are routinely hunted are safer.

"In areas where the black bear is hunted, the animals develop a fear of humans and the chances for having attacks of this type are less common," Brocke told USA Today.

But Rogers, the bear center director, stresses that the animals are generally very timid.

In the almost four decades he has worked with wild bears, Rogers says he has been bitten once, and only after he touched a bear.

This morning, in fact, he found a black bear inside his home in northeastern Minnesota.

"It just quietly left," he said.


Idiots like SoundlyBeaten should note the following:

*Bear attacks are "freak occurrences" and are exceptionally rare. (If they were female bears, they may have had cubs nearby, which would help explain the attack.)
*Only 12 people were killed by black bears in the last century in the lower 48 of the US. And they want us to think that 42 were killed here in one episode? No -- that's about the number killed by bears in Canada and Alaska in one century!
*"People are more than a hundred times more likely to be killed by bees in the United States than by a black bear." (!!!)
*Bears are generally very timid.

Now one can fuss and whine that these are black bears, not the sort that attacked the youths, but if they want to play that game they'd better have comparable data for bear species native to Palestine. Good luck. As far as I can find, the likeliest candidate, the Syrian brown bear, is now extinct in Israel -- and is also :ahem: VERY SMALL for a bear -- about 400 lbs.

Stupid people may also wish to consider, before they say that "Nobody in their right mind moves TOWARD an attacking bear", not only that they would indeed do so to rescue someone (as happened above), but because in that time, someone looking at a bear would also likely think of it as a good meal. 800 lbs of bear versus say 6300 lbs of human. Huh. Now who would end up winning that one? :hehe:

Stupid people need to think less like fundamentalists when they read this stuff.

[Sir-Think-A-Lot]

Here's another sample chapter, on the pagan copycat thesis:

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat.doc

Maybe SoundlyBeaten will show up and whine about how the "mental connotations" of the word "parallel" are used by me to hide the real truth that Mithraism was a source for Christianity. :hehe:

Very nice, a great job tearing apart the copy-cat theory.

I personally would have used Osiris/Isis/Horus rather than Attus. But that's more because of my liking for Egyption culture. I also would have mentioned Beddru of Japan. Granted you rarely hear about him even in skeptical literture, But its a great example of how indcompentent people who write this stuff can be.

Also, I would point out that copying can also be know to have happened if we have an admission from the person(or people) doing the copying. For example we know that the Resident Evil series was inspired by George A. Romeroro's Night of the Living Dead films because high level producers at Capcom have said as much. Although that's really irrevelent because we have no such admission from the earliest Christians.

But regardless, overall great job.

[jpholding]

Very nice, a great job tearing apart the copy-cat theory.

I personally would have used Osiris/Isis/Horus rather than Attus. But that's more because of my liking for Egyption culture. I also would have mentioned Beddru of Japan. Granted you rarely hear about him even in skeptical literture, But its a great example of how indcompentent people who write this stuff can be.



Thank you. I actually did put Osiris on the list of candidates but decided his matters were a little more complex than I wanted for the general aim, compared to the others. Still if I have more room in the final product I may go back to him and others.

BTW did you know Acharya S claims that "Beddru" was a typo and that Graves meant a form of Buddha's name?

[Sir-Think-A-Lot]

Thank you. I actually did put Osiris on the list of candidates but decided his matters were a little more complex than I wanted for the general aim, compared to the others. Still if I have more room in the final product I may go back to him and others.

Ok, I was just telling you what I personally would have done. I'v had a facenation with Egyption culture, and mythology ever since I can remember.

But the ones you chose were good examples too.

BTW did you know Acharya S claims that "Beddru" was a typo and that Graves meant a form of Buddha's name?

No, I havent actually been able to find a copy of The Christ Conspiricy to read. But I'm curious then why Graves would list Buddha in connection with Japan when its pretty much common knowldge that Buddha was an Indian prince.

But regardless even if he did mean Buddha, its still no parrallell.

[aikidoka]

Perhaps pointing out that Christianity can accomodate various views of Genesis would be something to include. I've seen some that think defeating young earth creationism and/or a global flood means Christianity and none of the Bible can be trusted. I usually point out there are various views amongst Christians about such matters, going as far as that of C.S. Lewis who leaned to progressive documentation and that we are Christians not Genesisians.

[Spheniscine]

If he does that, wouldn't he be forced to explain simply how those views might be accommodated?

I have an honest question for TEs/OECs: what do you say to atheists who hold that evolution/an old earth is incompatible with Christianity?

[aikidoka]

If he does that, wouldn't he be forced to explain simply how those views might be accommodated?

I have an honest question for TEs/OECs: what do you say to atheists who hold that evolution/an old earth is incompatible with Christianity?

I tend to point out that C.S. Lewis leaned towards a theistic evolution view, that G.K. Chesterton said a God who trascended time could take as much or as little time as he wanted. Note that I have Christian friends and family who disagree on this matter but we are united in our agreement about Christ. Or simply say evolution and God are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Sheepdog]

I have an honest question for TEs/OECs: what do you say to atheists who hold that evolution/an old earth is incompatible with Christianity?

I say, "what makes you say that?"

[Spheniscine]

OK, let's be a little more specific this time, according to you, what is the origin of sin?

[jpholding]

Last sample chapter, on the Christ myth:

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusmyth.doc

Last thing to do for now is make an outline, and the feedback here will be helpful in that.

[Darth Executor]

Last sample chapter, on the Christ myth:

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusmyth.doc

Last thing to do for now is make an outline, and the feedback here will be helpful in that.

Excellent. :thumb:

One piece of advice:

That’s not a very good reason, and it certainly isn’t one the people who know the most about Tacitus would back up. It’s written just the way Tacitus would write; it’s found in every copy of the Annals we have from the earliest time (the 11th century); and it says such bad things about Christians that it’s not likely a Christian would write it, unless you want to really get crazy and say some Christian purposely wrote bad things like that to fool us. And that would be really crazy – more than we can help you with.


You might want to explain why someone wouldn't do that. To a modern person it would make sense to make Christians look bad so the forgery looks authentic. Maybe a bit on honor and why looking good was so important to them. If you have it covered in another chapter, a reminder here would be nice.

[jpholding]

Reader emails me with these suggestions:



Make it a 2-3 book boxed set, including "The Impossible Faith" as one of the books!

Reading and understanding Old and New Testament in context and historically
ANE mindset along the lines of your youth lectures such as "It's a Large World After All" and "No Escaping the Collective," idiomatic language, hyperbole, low vs.high context society, accuracy of oral transmission, literacy rate of the time
chiastic structure and Hebrew parallelism
specific examples of problems solved: ie. Elisha and the 2 Bears, Genesis 1 seen as polemic to Babylonian myth parallels, supposed contradictions explained
authorship, dating, reliability, and manuscript evidence (explain number of fragments as opposed to more complete texts, that still confuses me :-))
suggested Commentary resources


Apologetics Overview


growing development of creeds and doctrines in response to heresy
many of today's arguments simply recycled from the past
importance of scholarly sources and critical reading
basic Da Vinci Code issues without specifically referring to the novel and characters which could outdate your book eventually
skeptic tactics - argument by outrage/incredulity
pagan copy cat
christ mythers
suggested "starter kit" of reading

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

:thumb: What a great idea!

[JB]

Reader emails me with these suggestions:

I agree with Punkish, that is a great idea!

Oh, and speaking of those lectures, since the reader mentioned them, were you ever planning on actually re-recording them?

Part 1: It's a Large World After All
Part 2: No Escaping the Collective -- unfortunately, this cut off mid-class; I'll re-record when I teach it again
Part 3: Honor Role -- have to catch this one next time: I forgot to turn the mike on!
Part 4: Keep It Clean
Part 5: How Faith Works
Part 6: Hope and Love (Source (http://www.tektonics.org/audio/audio.html))

[jpholding]

Oh, and speaking of those lectures, since the reader mentioned them, were you ever planning on actually re-recording them?


Given that my present home church is more interested in stuff like Purpose Driven Life, that's a darned good question. :glare:

[JB]

Given that my present home church is more interested in stuff like Purpose Driven Life, that's a darned good question. :glare:

:vomit:

If my church weren't the same way, I'd have already tried to persuade them to invite you up to deliver that series.

I've been wondering, about how frequently do you get asked to come speak at various churches?

[jpholding]

I've been wondering, about how frequently do you get asked to come speak at various churches?

Seems to average three times a year right now.

[jpholding]

I've made up the initial outline based on responses here and there's actually a great deal of repetition. Tomorrow I'll see about making something more final.

[jpholding]

I've been working on an outline/table of contents and here is what I have so far. Obviously there's a lot that comes from feedback here, and I've also run through Tekton's alphabetic index:

********

Outline of Chapter Subjects


Laying the Foundation

What is apologetics? (Or, Why Johnny Can’t Believe)
Logical Fallacies
Finding Reliable Sources (vs Wikipedia, etc)
Understanding Biblical Language (on things like hyperbole, poetry, etc)
The “Argument by Outrage” (against arguments that God is cruel, etc in the Bible)
The Culture of the Bible
Answering Claims of Error in the Bible
Leading Christian Myths


Old Testament

Is Genesis a stolen myth?
Are there two creation accounts?
The JEDP theory
Why was Onan killed?
What is the Old Testament law good for now?
Making Sense of Old Testament Laws
Was monotheism stolen from Akhenaten?
Does archaeology prove (or disprove) the Bible?
Is God genocidal? (about the destruction of the Canaanites, Amelekites, Midianites)
Elisha and the Bears
Was Daniel written in the second century?
Why does the Bible allow slavery? (Old Testament)
Does the Bible teach a flat earth?
Women and the Bible (Old Testament)


New Testament

Did Jesus exist?
Did Nazareth exist?
Is Jesus just a copy of pagan gods?
Did Jesus claim to be God?
Who wrote the New Testament?
What about, “Liar, Lunatic, Lord”?
When was the New Testament written?
What belongs in the New Testament? (the canon)
What doesn’t belong in the New Testament? (things like the Gospel of Thomas)
Was the New Testament accurately transmitted?
Q, Marcan priority, and other literary theories
Are the Gospels contradictory?
Why is John different from the other Gospels?
Do the Dead Sea Scrolls disprove Christianity?
Did the Gospels just make up stuff about Jesus?
Isn’t the Bible too biased to believe?
How do we know the Bible writers remembered what Jesus said and did right?
Didn’t the New Testament misuse the Old Testament?
Why does the Bible allow slavery? (New Testament)
Did Paul corrupt Christianity?
Women and the Bible (New Testament)
James vs. Paul
Peter vs. Paul


What You Believe

Understanding the Trinity
Understanding the Atonement
Understanding Faith and Works (Do we need to be baptized to be saved?)
What is hell like? Is it fair?
What is heaven like?
Did the Resurrection Happen?
Does the New Testament just take stuff from the Old Testament and rewrite it?
Did the Gospels just make up the miracles of Jesus?
Does prayer work?
What does it mean to worship?
Understanding Bible Terms (Faith, Hope, Love, Mercy, etc)

Miscellaneous

The problem of evil
Guilt by Association (when people lump all Christian together; in other words, they think Fred Phelps is typical)
The Tolerance Trap (political correctness, postmodernism and truth)
The Spanish Inquisition
The Crusades
The Treaty of Tripoli
Galileo
Did the church cover up a conspiracy? (Library of Alexandria, etc)
“Christianity is just for making money.”
“Christians are hypocrites.”
How to share the Gospel
Does the Bible forbid the use of alcohol?
Does the Bible forbid homosexuality?
Does the Bible forbid sex before marriage?
Does the Bible teach reincarnation?
Why didn’t God preserve the Bible perfectly?
Don’t miracles violate natural law?
What happens to people who never hear the Gospel?


How to Use Your Bible

What’s Wrong With….?

Mormons
Jehovah’s Witnesses
Unitarians
Open Theism


Authors to Watch Out For (writers whose works may be used by atheists/skeptics)

Karen Armstrong
Dan Barker
Marcus Borg
Dan Brown (da Vinci Code)
Joseph Campbell
Richard Carrier
John Dominic Crossan
Earl Doherty
Bart Ehrman
Helen Ellerbee
Brian Flemming
Timothy Freke/Peter Gandy
Robert Funk (Jesus Seminar)
Tom Harpur
Stephen Harris
Randel Helms
Robert Ingersoll
Dennis MacDonald
Burton Mack
Michael Martin
C. Dennis McKinsey
Robert Price
Gregory Riley
Acharya S
John Shelby Spong
Farrell Till

Recommended Reading

***
Next week I want to run through Tekton's Scripture index for any more ideas. A critical point here is the section naming persons. I'd like to know who else might go in here that I have not "Tektonized." I also need some input on the cults because that's not my specialty.

I'd like to have this settled for my backer by Nov. 30. My thanks for the helpful input thus far.

[TuckEverlasting]

Wow, I thought this was gonna be way shorter. :shocked:

[jpholding]

Wow, I thought this was gonna be way shorter. :shocked:

Uh uh. It's making stuff too short that's been part of the problem.

[Abykale]

Does the Bible teach reincarnation?
Wha? :huh:

Did you include: "Were the people who wrote the Bible on a drug-induced high?"

[Teallaura]

Don't worry Tuck - the Reader's Digest condensed version will come out...




eventually... ::shifty:

[jpholding]

Wha? :huh:

Did you include: "Were the people who wrote the Bible on a drug-induced high?"

Unfortunately....the reincarnation question gets propped a lot from people like Freke and Gandy (maybe not them specifically).

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Yep Freke and Gandy mention reincarnation in their Laughing Jesus, p148, 150.

[manwithdream]

I've been working on an outline/table of contents and here is what I have so far. Obviously there's a lot that comes from feedback here, and I've also run through Tekton's alphabetic index:

********

Outline of Chapter Subjects


Laying the Foundation

What is apologetics? (Or, Why Johnny Can’t Believe)
Logical Fallacies
Finding Reliable Sources (vs Wikipedia, etc)
Understanding Biblical Language (on things like hyperbole, poetry, etc)
The “Argument by Outrage” (against arguments that God is cruel, etc in the Bible)
The Culture of the Bible
Answering Claims of Error in the Bible
Leading Christian Myths


Old Testament

Is Genesis a stolen myth?
Are there two creation accounts?
The JEDP theory
Why was Onan killed?
What is the Old Testament law good for now?
Making Sense of Old Testament Laws
Was monotheism stolen from Akhenaten?
Does archaeology prove (or disprove) the Bible?
Is God genocidal? (about the destruction of the Canaanites, Amelekites, Midianites)
Elisha and the Bears
Was Daniel written in the second century?
Why does the Bible allow slavery? (Old Testament)
Does the Bible teach a flat earth?
Women and the Bible (Old Testament)


New Testament

Did Jesus exist?
Did Nazareth exist?
Is Jesus just a copy of pagan gods?
Did Jesus claim to be God?
Who wrote the New Testament?
What about, “Liar, Lunatic, Lord”?
When was the New Testament written?
What belongs in the New Testament? (the canon)
What doesn’t belong in the New Testament? (things like the Gospel of Thomas)
Was the New Testament accurately transmitted?
Q, Marcan priority, and other literary theories
Are the Gospels contradictory?
Why is John different from the other Gospels?
Do the Dead Sea Scrolls disprove Christianity?
Did the Gospels just make up stuff about Jesus?
Isn’t the Bible too biased to believe?
How do we know the Bible writers remembered what Jesus said and did right?
Didn’t the New Testament misuse the Old Testament?
Why does the Bible allow slavery? (New Testament)
Did Paul corrupt Christianity?
Women and the Bible (New Testament)
James vs. Paul
Peter vs. Paul


What You Believe

Understanding the Trinity
Understanding the Atonement
Understanding Faith and Works (Do we need to be baptized to be saved?)
What is hell like? Is it fair?
What is heaven like?
Did the Resurrection Happen?
Does the New Testament just take stuff from the Old Testament and rewrite it?
Did the Gospels just make up the miracles of Jesus?
Does prayer work?
What does it mean to worship?
Understanding Bible Terms (Faith, Hope, Love, Mercy, etc)

Miscellaneous

The problem of evil
Guilt by Association (when people lump all Christian together; in other words, they think Fred Phelps is typical)
The Tolerance Trap (political correctness, postmodernism and truth)
The Spanish Inquisition
The Crusades
The Treaty of Tripoli
Galileo
Did the church cover up a conspiracy? (Library of Alexandria, etc)
“Christianity is just for making money.”
“Christians are hypocrites.”
How to share the Gospel
Does the Bible forbid the use of alcohol?
Does the Bible forbid homosexuality?
Does the Bible forbid sex before marriage?
Does the Bible teach reincarnation?
Why didn’t God preserve the Bible perfectly?
Don’t miracles violate natural law?
What happens to people who never hear the Gospel?


How to Use Your Bible

What’s Wrong With….?

Mormons
Jehovah’s Witnesses
Unitarians
Open Theism


Authors to Watch Out For (writers whose works may be used by atheists/skeptics)

Karen Armstrong
Dan Barker
Marcus Borg
Dan Brown (da Vinci Code)
Joseph Campbell
Richard Carrier
John Dominic Crossan
Earl Doherty
Bart Ehrman
Helen Ellerbee
Brian Flemming
Timothy Freke/Peter Gandy
Robert Funk (Jesus Seminar)
Tom Harpur
Stephen Harris
Randel Helms
Robert Ingersoll
Dennis MacDonald
Burton Mack
Michael Martin
C. Dennis McKinsey
Robert Price
Gregory Riley
Acharya S
John Shelby Spong
Farrell Till

Recommended Reading

***
Next week I want to run through Tekton's Scripture index for any more ideas. A critical point here is the section naming persons. I'd like to know who else might go in here that I have not "Tektonized." I also need some input on the cults because that's not my specialty.

I'd like to have this settled for my backer by Nov. 30. My thanks for the helpful input thus far.
I think you left out Jewish anti-missionaries and their arguments. I think Jews for Judaism, Messiah Truth, and Outreach Judaism have more powerful arguments because they know Hebrew. I think a book about apologetics that does not mention them would be incomplete.

[JSDileo]

I think you left out Jewish anti-missionaries and their arguments. I think Jews for Judaism, Messiah Truth, and Outreach Judaism have more powerful arguments because they know Hebrew. I think a book about apologetics that does not mention them would be incomplete.

Ditto.

JP, I think I'm going to buy your book and show it to my pastor. :thumb: Maybe we can get copies at my church for all the people interested. Heck, I even think that my brother would be interested. :yes: I think he would disagree with your version of hell, but he would like everything else.

[Sir-Think-A-Lot]

I would add to your list of authors to watch out for:

Michael Baigent, co-author of Holy Blood, Holy Grail(the book that started the whole 'Jesus was married and started a bloodline' nonsense), as well as a big supporter of the idea that Jesus survived the crucifixion.

David Hume-every argument agains the miraculous has been some variation of his

Sam Harris- for his book Letter to A Christian Nation. I havent read anything else of his, so I cant say that everything of his was worthless, but that one was bad enough.

Fredrick Nitzesche-seriously this one so obvious I'm surprised it didnt make it on in the first place

Also two that I'd cautiously recomend putting on are Richard Dawkins, and Thomas Paine. Mainly for their extreme ignorance of(and vocal opposition to) Christianity. However I say cautiously recomend because they actually do have a great deal of knowldge in other, unrelated areas.

[aspiretohope]

I would add to your list of authors to watch out for:

Michael Baigent, co-author of Holy Blood, Holy Grail(the book that started the whole 'Jesus was married and started a bloodline' nonsense), as well as a big supporter of the idea that Jesus survived the crucifixion.

David Hume-every argument agains the miraculous has been some variation of his

Sam Harris- for his book Letter to A Christian Nation. I havent read anything else of his, so I cant say that everything of his was worthless, but that one was bad enough.

Fredrick Nitzesche-seriously this one so obvious I'm surprised it didnt make it on in the first place

Also two that I'd cautiously recomend putting on are Richard Dawkins, and Thomas Paine. Mainly for their extreme ignorance of(and vocal opposition to) Christianity. However I say cautiously recomend because they actually do have a great deal of knowldge in other, unrelated areas.
"However I say cautiously recomend because they actually do have a great deal of knowldge in other, unrelated areas."

moreso for hume

[jpholding]

OK, I took a trip to the college bookstore at U of Central FL and I'm thinking, what happened?

When I went to college, college bookstores sold TEXTBOOKS. This place looked more like "Barnes and Noble, UCF Campus." All kinds of crap in the religion section. Even Baigent and Leigh.

I'm thinking this may make THIS project easier, but anyway, is this now typical of college bookstores or what?

[Leonhard]

OK, I took a trip to the college bookstore at U of Central FL and I'm thinking, what happened?

When I went to college, college bookstores sold TEXTBOOKS. This place looked more like "Barnes and Noble, UCF Campus." All kinds of crap in the religion section. Even Baigent and Leigh.

I'm thinking this may make THIS project easier, but anyway, is this now typical of college bookstores or what?
I wouldn't know I've only been to science bookstore at campus and the only book it has that deals with the subject is 'The god delusion' sigh... I'll make sure to ghost out the general bookstore as well.

I gonna by your book when it comes out though, its like a short guide to the articles on the net. This way I can better remember the specific arguments when in a live debate. Don't worry I read those on the site as well :teeth:

Whats the price on the thing so far?

[jpholding]

Whats the price on the thing so far?

We're not that far enough along yet. My next step is to send my backer a full outline so he has something to show to potential supporters or publishers.

[JB]

OK, I took a trip to the college bookstore at U of Central FL and I'm thinking, what happened?

When I went to college, college bookstores sold TEXTBOOKS. This place looked more like "Barnes and Noble, UCF Campus." All kinds of crap in the religion section. Even Baigent and Leigh.

I'm thinking this may make THIS project easier, but anyway, is this now typical of college bookstores or what?

Not so much in mine. As far as religion goes, apart from what's actually necessary for classes to the extent of my knowledge, there isn't really much of anything, save a few classics, some various philosophy of religion books, and a few books written by the college's professors (some of which, naturally, probably belong on the shelf next to Baigent and Leigh in stores that carry both...).

Of course, I did get Imitation of Christ, Confessions, etc. for a pretty decent price, so perhaps I shouldn't complain about my college bookstore.

...It's the college library that has some of the nutty stuff.

[jpholding]

Just off the phone with my backer, and he's had a talk with the head of a publishing company that may be interested. My next move is to put together a formal book proposal, which I'll do in the next two weeks.

[Teallaura]

:thumb:

[jpholding]

Well, this is a pleasant surprise!

I had sent a note to my backer last week asking for some final instructions on putting together a proposal for this for a publisher he had in mind. Lo and behold, in my email today...a message from the person in charge of product development at that publisher! They referenced my backer and the gift book idea, and said their development team wanted to talk to me more about the proposal. This is a HUGE step. Most proposals don't make it this far.

I'll call them Monday.

[dizzle]

That is great! I would give you pearls but you are a pearl hog. :glare:

[jpholding]

That is great! I would give you pearls but you are a pearl hog. :glare:

Meh. Take 'em from me and distribute them to the needy.

[Teallaura]

:yipee:

[jpholding]

OK, I just had a great phone conversation with the contact person at the publisher. They were very interested to hear about the feedback group we have here. Today I need to finalize some stuff for them and fax it over, then sometime in the next 1-2 months we'll likely have some meetings about it.

One thing though is that I need to reduce this to around 300 pages. So not all the topics will be covered as have been suggested. But that's OK, because there can always be further recommended reading.

They had seen the Elisha chapter and liked the style. :smile:

To work!

[Bill the Cat]

OK, I just had a great phone conversation with the contact person at the publisher. They were very interested to hear about the feedback group we have here. Today I need to finalize some stuff for them and fax it over, then sometime in the next 1-2 months we'll likely have some meetings about it.

One thing though is that I need to reduce this to around 300 pages. So not all the topics will be covered as have been suggested. But that's OK, because there can always be further recommended reading.

They had seen the Elisha chapter and liked the style. :smile:

To work!
Any chance this will be ready for the graduating class this summer? I have several seniors wanting a copy for when they graduate.

[jpholding]

Any chance this will be ready for the graduating class this summer? I have several seniors wanting a copy for when they graduate.

I don't know how quickly publishers work, but if I tell them about what you just said, it will no doubt help. :teeth:

I do expect/hope for some sort of meeting to occur this month, in the next 20 days.

[jpholding]

OK, bad news here. The publisher said no and sent the usual vague rejection response ("We don't FEEL we can do this," blase squase). My backer is going to appeal to a higher up there to reconsider but I've suggested to him (and he has agreed) that we proceed with doing at least a NT version of the book and that we go the self-pub route with it so we can get it out in time for the next graduation. And if a publisher wants it after that, great. But it's more important to get it out there one way or the other. So I'll be working on this all next month.

[jpholding]

Yep. Been a long time but this project (college gift book) looks like it will finally go forward. I met my backer last night at a social event and he says he'll be sending me the fundage to get this book printed. So part of early 2008 will be devoted to getting this in tip top shape.

[Bill the Cat]

SWEET!! Thnx for the update.

[JB]

Splendid! :thumb:

[DoomRater]

I read that one on the bears and all I could think of at the end was "BEAR CALVARY."

[almightydollar]

The idea is to produce a "gift book" to give to high school seniors before they go off to college, which will fortify and prepare them for challenges to their faith.

Some questions I need feedback on:

* What subjects should definitely go in something like this? (Think, what Tekton articles? Not the whole things, but the subjects. I can always add references to the text "for more information".)
* How should it be presented? My mover/shaker was keen on use of toons to liven things up, but how far should this go? Do we turn this into a manga-style deal? Or just use a few illustrations? (Hey, can you imagine Sheila debunking critics of the NT in manga-style format? )

1. By 'challenges to their faith', do you mean new situations they will likely find themselves in, or actual challenges made against their faith from people proselytizing for a different philosphy?

2. I would recommend leaving the cartoons as one-panel additions to the text, rather than using them as the primary medium.

[jpholding]

1. By 'challenges to their faith', do you mean new situations they will likely find themselves in, or actual challenges made against their faith from people proselytizing for a different philosphy?

Either one.


2. I would recommend leaving the cartoons as one-panel additions to the text, rather than using them as the primary medium.

That is as it would be.

[Little Shepherd]

I think "Calculated Contempt" would serve as a possible introduction: http://www.tektonics.org/af/calcon.htmlOh, wow, that was a great article! And the reader response with Skeptic Bud was also great. And the articles on Canon that linked to. And . . . hey, where did the past few hours go? :huh:

[jpholding]

OK folks,

Look s like we'll finally get this one off the ground....an interested party has just paid for the book to be done with Xulon (the same people who did TIF and the Christ myth book for me) and so all I need to do is review the mss. and cobble it together...which should take no more than two months.

Who wants to proof read? :lol:

[Darth Executor]

OK folks,

Look s like we'll finally get this one off the ground....an interested party has just paid for the book to be done with Xulon (the same people who did TIF and the Christ myth book for me) and so all I need to do is review the mss. and cobble it together...which should take no more than two months.

Who wants to proof read? :lol:

Send it my way, I'm in college so I at least partially match the target audience. I take it you have my email.

[JB]

I'm in. I know what the target audience is facing these days, I'm certain you still have my e-mail on file somewhere, and unlike some of these other folks, I'm a decently effective proofreader. :tongue:

[jpholding]

Thanks guys.

I'll be posting a mini-fundraising promo on the site later today to pay for the time and for adding the graphic elements to the book -- each one costs $15. Maximum of 50 per book though.

[Alucard]

OK folks,

Look s like we'll finally get this one off the ground....an interested party has just paid for the book to be done with Xulon (the same people who did TIF and the Christ myth book for me) and so all I need to do is review the mss. and cobble it together...which should take no more than two months.

Who wants to proof read? :lol:

Ah sweet. I just came in here to say that this needs to be the priority after you do the NT Reliability book.

Not telling us who the interested party is, hey?

[jpholding]

Ah sweet. I just came in here to say that this needs to be the priority after you do the NT Reliability book.

Not telling us who the interested party is, hey?

He hasn't said that he wants to be known, but as far as I know, he's not anyone that would be known here anyway. I don't think he's even on TWeb.

Darth, JB, I'll be sending you some instructions shortly.

[Alucard]

I'd also be happy to proof-read, as I'm one of those dastardly kids heading off to college in a matter of months.

[Trusty]

I don't mind proofreading. I'm in college, and know the pulse...but I am not traditional college age (I'm 31).

I know it wasn't scholarship or anything, but I thought Vox Day's recent book, minus the open theism bit, would be a good reference book for this.

Mainly the tone of it, and the throwing the atheists arguments back in their face bits...The best part of the book was the war and killing in the name of religion canard that was dealt with in probably the best manner I have ever read. But that kind of history compiling didn't require much to do after all, which is why he probably looked more credible in that area than discussing science or philosophy.

But here are the popular topics I hear around the philosophy department...In no particular order.

1. Hume is still awesome!!!! Miracles aren't.

2. Religion kills more people than everything ever...

3. Jesus was just a man (maybe) and the ressurection could never happen.

4. They still think the P.O.E. is still the most devestating argument against God.

5. The validity of scripture.

6. ECREE trumps logic in usefulness.

7. Evolution and the various cosmologies that try to remove God altogether is everything. Personally I have no problem with evolution one way or the other since it isn't all that important, but I think that reeling in some of this abusive explanitory power and scope of evolution by almost every instructor on a college campus as it relates to faith, the soul, and how the mind works would be very useful.

8. God is a big meanie.

Gee, when I spell it out like that, the department doesn't seem all that impressive...

I think toons would be cool as long as they were used sparingly and to reinforce the the content in such a way as to make the points clear. I also think giving the toons a hard edge to them wouldn't be a bad thing either (the whole book should be this way actually, the "your back is against the wall", wimpish tone is what has saddled books like this in the past usually gets them ignored by the target audience).

The book doesn't need to get too deep into nuts and bolts though. Undergraduates don't get hammered with the minute details because discussing how Christianity sucks too deeply takes time away from the professors presenting all their own personal ideas and insights that are sooooooo much more important. LOL

My biggest piece of advice is to hit the big stuff they are most likely to encounter with an aggressive tone, lay out where they can go find additional resources if something not covered in the book ever comes up, and give them a reason to feel confident.


And do yourself a favor, make an audio version of the book (with all the toons in a small, separate book) if you can.

I wish I would've had a book like that when I turned 18...or even 16.

[T-Shirt Ninja]

Hey JP, I'm in college at a secular university and I'd love to proof read the book. It may also be a good idea for campus ministries to have copies of it for people who may struggle with doubt and challenges from professors and peers (though it's mostly peers where I'm from).

[Frogwarrior]

I'd also love to proof it... I'm soon going to be finishing up my last year at a secular sci-tech college, but my lil' bro's just starting this year at the same college... seems to be the right demographic :teeth:



sheesh, you got JPH fanboyz all over this one :frog:

[jpholding]

A couple of things....


1) Can I ask mods to change the name of this thread to "Youth Gift Book Project Updates" seeing as how it's proving handy now that the project is underway?

2) You who are proofing: I expect I'll review each chapter again and again, and I need your help with something. I think it would be a good idea to scatter pop references to stuff like popular movies and TV shows in the text. Problem is that I don't watch much TV (Mythbusters and Dirty Jobs is about it :bawl:) and can't afford many movie trips, so I need your help picking relevant references. In your suggestions please feel free to come up with some of those in any of the chapters.

[Bill the Cat]

A couple of things....


1) Can I ask mods to change the name of this thread to "Youth Gift Book Project Updates" seeing as how it's proving handy now that the project is underway?



Done

[Darth Executor]

2) You who are proofing: I expect I'll review each chapter again and again, and I need your help with something. I think it would be a good idea to scatter pop references to stuff like popular movies and TV shows in the text. Problem is that I don't watch much TV (Mythbusters and Dirty Jobs is about it :bawl:) and can't afford many movie trips, so I need your help picking relevant references. In your suggestions please feel free to come up with some of those in any of the chapters.

Can you give some examples of what you want? And tell us what you're referencing in case we weren't alive 100 years ago. :rasberry:

[jpholding]

Thanks for the switch, Cat!

Can you give some examples of what you want? And tell us what you're referencing in case we weren't alive 100 years ago. :rasberry:

I'll use an example a friend of mine uses when he teaches on intelligent design vs totally naturalistic evolution. He wants to illustrate the odds against life coming to exist without God. So he starts his lesson with a clip from one of the Dumb and Dumber movies where Jim Carrey asks a girl what the chances are that they could start a serious relationship, and she says "not good". Carrey asks for a quantification and she says something like "one in a million". Carrey gets all happy and says, "So you're sayin' there's a chance!"

So basically I want stuff like this from movies, TV, songs etc. that might illustrate some point in the chapters.

And they should be ones guys your age (10 or 12?) would be familiar with. :hehe:

If the clip or song is available online, I'll need a reference to it so I can check it out.


Also, I just uploaded the newest edition; 20 new chapters. I apparently did a lot of work way back when on this....

[jpholding]

Bunch more chapters in last night for the reviewers. I should have more today unless Fay kills everyone here (per the media hype).

[jpholding]

I just posted another update with the last of the chapters I had done before...now it's time to go over it with a fine-toothed comb, add in what hasn't been done...and also maybe draw the toons....

[jpholding]

The first dozen or so chapters are now up in what could be called a final form...please check these closely.

Right now we're looking to be well under 100,000 words in the final mss. Just as well: Too thick would scare some of these folks off. :outtie:

[jpholding]

After an assessment, I've lowered the fundraising goal from $2K to $1700; I won't need as much time as I thought . We also had a motivated person pledge about half the needed amount today.

[jpholding]

14 more chapters reviewed today, and they're up for reviewers. Also, I think someone came through with the rest of the funding! I need to confirm to be sure.

[jpholding]

Yes, I was right! Someone gave the rest of the needed amount for the fundraiser! :woohoo:

And what's neat is, they gave within $10 of the EXACT amount needed without awareness of what it was!

If I were charismatic, I might lay hands on someone and heal them right now. :hehe:

[TuckEverlasting]

Yes, I was right! Someone gave the rest of the needed amount for the fundraiser! :woohoo:

And what's neat is, they gave within $10 of the EXACT amount needed without awareness of what it was!

If I were charismatic, I might lay hands on someone and heal them right now. :hehe:

Lay hands on your computer and see whether you can fix years of spelling errors. :hehe:

[Darth Executor]

Lay hands on your computer and see whether you can fix years of spelling errors. :hehe:


Owned. I'm looking through the book but I can't really find anything wrong. Is that a good thing?

[TolkienFan]

Originally posted by TuckEverlasting

Lay hands on your computer and see whether you can fix years of spelling errors.

Especially of "Tolkien".

[jpholding]

Five more chapters worked up -- couple of them "originals" and at least one long one otherwise.

Back with more maybe Tuesday.

[TolkienFan]

?Cuantos capitulos?

[jpholding]

?Cuantos capitulos?

No, senor. But 12 more today. After this I have several that must be done from scratch. They will take a while.

[TolkienFan]

Originally posted by jpholding

No, senor. But 12 more today. After this I have several that must be done from scratch. They will take a while.

:eh: "Cuantos capitulos" means "How many chapters?"

[jpholding]

:eh: "Cuantos capitulos" means "How many chapters?"

Too late. I already sent you the burritos I thought you asking for, without habaneros.

But anyway, it looks like about 80 chapters.

[jpholding]

Added a few more yesterday and will do some more today.

[jpholding]

All the chapters are done for first draft; the only text content left is the Reading List, which I'll do Tuesday. Then you proofers out there will have a couple of weeks to shred it while I do the illustations.

[jpholding]

Bibliography is added. I now have about 30 drawings to do -- please get any proofing done by September 28.

[MikeWright]

I bet i could find all kinds of errors if you let me proof read it. How much do you pay?

[jpholding]

Sample of artwork. It will have to be in black and white, sadly.

These are for the chapters on Akhenaten and on the Treaty of Tripoli's Article 11.

[Bill the Cat]

So Sparko makes a guest appearance? :haha::sparko:

[jpholding]

So Sparko makes a guest appearance? :haha::sparko:

That IS his spelling, right? :whistle:

[Frogwarrior]

That IS his spelling, right? :whistle:

Oh, was that supposed to be? I didn't recognize it... too coherent.

[jpholding]

I'm on the last couple of graphics -- if possible, I'd like for all proofers to have any comments in by this time next week.

[jpholding]

The mss. is on the way to Xulon! I'm not sure how long before it will be in print. Since it has graphics, it may take longer than the others did.

[disciple100]

that sounds like a great book idea, we need more refutation books, we need to better arm us young people.

[{Tim}]

I wanna buy a copy. :teeth:

[jpholding]

I wanna buy a copy. :teeth:

Dunno if it'll be available down under....

[xcav8tor]

Hi JP, :teeth:

I just have two suggestions.

Jesus was often able to bring truth to light just by asking the right question. Following His example, I think it would be useful to arm students with an arsenal of questions which will neutralize the attack of teachers whose aim is to belittle our faith. The students, of course, need to know the answers as well, but sometimes just raising the question can reveal the flaw in a teacher's argument, or at least reveal their presuppositions. Even if the teacher is too blinded by his own bias to see it, other students will probably clue in and may learn to question the teacher's "just so" stories. When they realize the bias behind an attack comes not from a position of truth but a competing worldview, they may hopefully be less intimidated by the teacher's position of authority.

I would also suggest you include the basics of logic and how to recognize flaws in reasoning (as found on your site). All students could get a lot of mileage out of this, and it can be applied to all areas of their lives.

Cheers, :teeth:
xcav8tor

[xcav8tor]

Hi JP, :teeth:

I just joined up today and replied to your post. After further review, it seems my input comes too late to be included for consideration. Perhaps it might come in handy for the sequel (?).

Keep up the good work!

Cheers, :teeth:
xcav8tor

PS - Thanks for your support MetalMark

[Alucard]

Dunno if it'll be available down under....

Why not? Tim and I live in the same city, and I have Shattering the Christ Myth sitting on my table right now. We just have to order them from America, s'all.

[jpholding]

I just joined up today and replied to your post. After further review, it seems my input comes too late to be included for consideration. Perhaps it might come in handy for the sequel (?).


Well, the good news is I did include a chapter based on the logical fallacies article -- so you have the gift of prophecy!

As to the other, I like the idea in principle by I find that a hard thing to conceptualize because I prefer to think on my feet rather than set out a script. I think that might do well as something to be included on the site page about the book. But I'd need someone to craft such dialogues (you? :win:) because I can't think that way.

[jpholding]

Why not? Tim and I live in the same city, and I have Shattering the Christ Myth sitting on my table right now. We just have to order them from America, s'all.

I didn't buy the same publishing package for this book as I did STCM. But if you can get it, hey, awesome. :teeth:

[jpholding]

http://www.xulonauthors.com/Galley%5CH%5CHOLDINGJAMESP_00100000004gOR9%5CFiles/J%20Holding-Blowing%20COV1.pdf

Cover design is done. I sort of hoped they'd have the door come off in an explosion of some sort but it's still okay.

[sc_q_jayce]

Woah. So bubbly and cartoony. Yeah, why doesn't the door blow off? Such hypocrisy. For shame, JP! For shame! :)

[jpholding]

Just got notice to review the galleys. I'll do that now and we may just see this puppy out before the Thanksgiving holiday.

It's 425 pages.

[The Curtmudgeon]

:joy: :yipee: :joy: :yipee: :joy:

The (that is to say, I'll see if I can find some place to work it into my reading schedule) Curtmudgeon

[jpholding]

I just got a note that the book is done, and my free copies are on the way. I expect this means we'll see it on Amazon soon.

[Bill the Cat]

:yipee: Gonna buy it!!

[sc_q_jayce]

Score!

[The Curtmudgeon]

:joy: :yipee: :joy: :yipee: :joy:

The (that is to say, I'll see if I can find some place to work it into my reading schedule) Curtmudgeon

:yea-that:

The (I need to pay off my current monthly Amazon bill first) Curtmudgeon

[jpholding]

Got my free copies. It looks great; pretty thick, too. Not on Amazon yet though.

[Chaotic Void]

Hmm... sounds good. Once I get a bit of money, I might get a couple o' copies to take on ministry trips to give out, as I'm doing a lot of traveling in Bible College [the college is focusing on practical AND academic this year] and this sort of thing would come in handy.

Say, JP. Have you ever thought about whipping up an Apologetics-based Youth Group Curriculum?

[T-Shirt Ninja]

I plan on buying it soon. :yipee:

[jpholding]

Say, JP. Have you ever thought about whipping up an Apologetics-based Youth Group Curriculum?

That's sort of what this is, but in narrative format.

I just realized that the book will NOT be on Amazon. It has to be ordered from Xulon. The benefactor bought the package that I have never bought before, where it is not available on Amazon. It has to be gotten here:

http://www.xulonpress.com/book_detail.php?id=6634.html

[The Curtmudgeon]

That's sort of what this is, but in narrative format.

I just realized that the book will NOT be on Amazon. It has to be ordered from Xulon. The benefactor bought the package that I have never bought before, where it is not available on Amazon. It has to be gotten here:

http://www.xulonpress.com/book_detail.php?id=6634.html

And clicking on that link, and the "Buy Now" link on that page, give you:
We're sorry, but this title is not currently available for ordering.

The (:drum::drum::drum:) Curtmudgeon

[jpholding]

And clicking on that link, and the "Buy Now" link on that page, give you:
We're sorry, but this title is not currently available for ordering.



:brood:

I dunno why they put a page up then.

[The Curtmudgeon]

:brood:

I dunno why they put a page up then.

:idea: You could ask them when it will be available.

The (and tell them you've got people lined up to order it -- maybe they'll take the hint) Curtmudgeon

[jpholding]

Yeah, I need to speak to a rep anyway...they fouled up on my W-9. :brood:

[The Curtmudgeon]

JP, I've been looking over the Xulon site, and based on your comment about the package you used for this book not including Amazon.com support, it looks like unless it was the highest-price package Xulon won't even sell them through their own website -- except to the author, of course. If I'm reading their page correctly, where they give a checklist of the various options on each of their publishing packages, it appears that with the low-end package only the author can order books -- in other words, you're expected to sell your book yourself.

Please check with them about this. I'd love to be completely off-base on this one. But if I'm not, you're probably going to have to put an order page on Tektonics, and handle all the selling (sales tax, shipping & handling, etc.) yourself.

The (and I suspect that is not at all what you planned) Curtmudgeon

[jpholding]

If I'm reading their page correctly, where they give a checklist of the various options on each of their publishing packages, it appears that with the low-end package only the author can order books -- in other words, you're expected to sell your book yourself.


That would be remarkably stupid as an offer. :twitch:

I have a message in to my rep asking them about this and if we can do the upgrade...the supporter has said he'll pay for the change if needed.

[jpholding]

http://shop.wholesalecustomframe.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=22

The fellow who paid for the book has put up this temporary page for buying the book until we get it on Amazon.

[Marko]

Is there any way I can buy a copy from the UK? The link you gave only allows you to purchase if you live in the USA or Canada.

[jpholding]

Is there any way I can buy a copy from the UK? The link you gave only allows you to purchase if you live in the USA or Canada.

I suppose I could mail you one of my copies. if you mail me a payment. I think postage would be an additional $9-10.

[Marko]

That would be great but I don't know exactly how to pay you in American Dollars from the UK. Is there any way to do a bank transfer or something?

[Darth Executor]

If JP has paypal you can just use a credit card. I think it does the exchange automatically.

[jpholding]

That would be great but I don't know exactly how to pay you in American Dollars from the UK. Is there any way to do a bank transfer or something?

Drop me an email, we'll work it out.

[Chaotic Void]

http://shop.wholesalecustomframe.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=22

The fellow who paid for the book has put up this temporary page for buying the book until we get it on Amazon.

Is that price in American or Canadian Dollars? I assume American, but I want to make sure before I start converting my PayPal funds...

[jpholding]

Is that price in American or Canadian Dollars? I assume American, but I want to make sure before I start converting my PayPal funds...

American.

[Chaotic Void]

I ordered this book a couple weeks ago, and it came to me in the mail on Friday.

Good Job, JP. The Artwork was also hilarious. (I noticed one Typo, however... I'll get a citation later.)

[jpholding]

I ordered this book a couple weeks ago, and it came to me in the mail on Friday.

Good Job, JP. The Artwork was also hilarious. (I noticed one Typo, however... I'll get a citation later.)

Thanks....too late to fix tho'. :sigh:

[Chaotic Void]

Thanks....too late to fix tho'. :sigh:

S'okay. I won't bother then.

By the by... just curious... but do you play video games?

[jpholding]

S'okay. I won't bother then.

By the by... just curious... but do you play video games?

I have a PS2 as well as a Nintendo NES, and a collection of games with (what else) anthropomorphs as protagonists....right now, working my way back through Ratchet and Clank 2 again....

[Meta Knight]

I have a PS2 as well as a Nintendo NES, and a collection of games with (what else) anthropomorphs as protagonists....right now, working my way back through Ratchet and Clank 2 again....
Why? 2 was terrible.

[DoomRater]

I keep expecting the guy to say Bomberman's in that collection. Because it's like the only game one of my Lutheran teachers liked.

[Bill the Cat]

Just ordered 2 copies, one for me and one to loan out. Remember that copy of TMD you signed for me? I loaned it to a friend, and he moved. I am without my copy of that and Ed Dalcour's book on the Trinity that he signed for me. :doh:

[Chaotic Void]

I have a PS2 as well as a Nintendo NES,
An NES? Nice :thumb: (Been wanting to get my hands on one of those... But I'm settling for the Wii Virtual Console)


and a collection of games with (what else) anthropomorphs as protagonists....right now, working my way back through Ratchet and Clank 2 again....
:tongue: Geez, JP, what's it with you and anthropomorphs? (Just kidding.) I take it Crash Bandicoot is in that collection somewhere?

[jpholding]

:tongue: Geez, JP, what's it with you and anthropomorphs? (Just kidding.) I take it Crash Bandicoot is in that collection somewhere?

Uh huh. Also Spyro and Ty the Tasmanian Tiger. :woohoo: