Persecution as Proof of Salvation

[whag]

It was recently announced at my work that a prominent male employee was going full Caitlyn Jenner. It was a complete shock to everyone, as the man showed zero indication of such leanings (he’s married with three children). In the weeks since the announcement, he’s encountered the expected awkward reactions to his “transformation.” A very good, highly respected employee, he’s now claiming that his work is being stymied by those in the company who hate him for his extreme change.

I consider myself rather liberal, buy even I think he’s inviting it, really. I think that he should expect that awkwardness and he’s exaggerating about the level of persecution he’s enduring at work.

A popular Christian belief exists that says all Christians should expect persecution in some form. It’s based on what Timothy said in 2 Timothy 3:12:

“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

It made me think of self-fulfilling prophecy. If a Christian isn’t suffering some form of persecution from their beliefs and behavior (say, denying marriage licenses to homosexuals), doesn’t that invite them to go looking for “persecution”? It seems like a terrible burden to say to believers “If you’re not being persecuted, you’re not doing it right.” I can imagine a Christian living frugally and exemplifying Christian values without being persecuted.

[whag]

Rich Mullins would be a good example of a Christian who lived sacrificially but didn't suffer persecution. See the movie Ragamuffin. It's surprisingly good.

A non-Christian example of someone who lives very sacrificially would be Jose Mujica, the president of Uraguay.

[Cow Poke]

It made me think of self-fulfilling prophecy. If a Christian isn’t suffering some form of persecution from their beliefs and behavior (say, denying marriage licenses to homosexuals), doesn’t that invite them to go looking for “persecution”?

Yes, I think it could. But God isn't fooled. He knows our hearts.

It seems like a terrible burden to say to believers “If you’re not being persecuted, you’re not doing it right*.”

Yet, here you are, an agnostic, on a Christian website, picking fights.

I can imagine a Christian living frugally and exemplifying Christian values without being persecuted.

Paul was aggressively expanding Christianity, and did, indeed, suffer persecution more than a few times. He was preparing Timothy for that. A Christian who is proactively fulfilling the great commission will encounter opposition. What you describe sounds more like a Christian who is pretty much "hunkered down".



*I'm kidding, and, no, I don't really see that as persecution. The Oregon shooting would, however, qualify, I believe, because students were killed for their belief in Christ.

[Cow Poke]

Also, try reading the entire chapter for context. Paul begins with "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come", then expands on that for a number of verses, warning Timothy that things are going to get worse.

It certainly wasn't intended as a "proof of salvation".

[whag]

Also, try reading the entire chapter for context. Paul begins with "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come", then expands on that for a number of verses, warning Timothy that things are going to get worse.

It certainly wasn't intended as a "proof of salvation".

I know the context, and that shouldn't be extended to modern Christians to make them feel inadequate for not being persecuted. That's my point. My Christian wife's Christian aunt was going on about this verse yesterday and trying to make her "more bold" for Christ (whatever that means). Her aunt said that that boldness will make non-Christians mad at her and lash out. The implication is that the persecution that boldness provokes is evidence that one is saved. I think I easily demonstrated one can live a good Christian life without ever being persecuted.

The shooting example is just dumb. Those people weren't shot because they were particularly ardent. Moreover, had they been overcome with fear and NOT identified themselves as Christian, it would say nothing about the quality of their faith and works that preceded their demise.

[Bill the Cat]

The implication is that the persecution that boldness provokes is evidence that one is saved.

Not really. The implication is that the Gospel is offensive to those who don't believe it. It has nothing to do with the one speaking.

[whag]

Not really. The implication is that the Gospel is offensive to those who don't believe it. It has nothing to do with the one speaking.

Offensive doesn't work, so there's problem #1. The way it's expressed can be offensive, sure, such as when a preacher wearing a sandwich board screams that students are going to hell on a college campus. There's absolutely nothing offensive to me about how Rich Mullins and his mentors preached the gospel. Mullins wasn't quiet about Jesus, and he lived very sacrificially.

[Bill the Cat]

Offensive doesn't work, so there's problem #1.

Sure it can.

The way it's expressed can be offensive, sure, such as when a preacher wearing a sandwich board screams that students are going to hell on a college campus.

While a bit crude, that's a part of the Gospel.

There's absolutely nothing offensive to me about how Rich Mullins and his mentors preached the gospel.

Including the line from "Awesome God" about His judgment and wrath that got poured out on Sodom?

Mullins wasn't quiet about Jesus, and he lived very sacrificially.

And he wasn't quiet about sin, even his own, and its consequences.

[whag]

Sure it can.

The expression can, certainly, but not the gospel itself.

While a bit crude, that's a part of the Gospel.

Crude expression of dogma is part of a lot of religions. Crudity of that sort isn't the way to go when seeking to be persuasive in the long term. It makes one look like a clown.

Including the line from "Awesome God" about His judgment and wrath that got poured out on Sodom?

Yes, that's from the Bible and isn't offensive in the least. Weird, yes, if believed literally (Lot offered his daughters to the rapists), but not offensive.

And he wasn't quiet about sin, even his own, and its consequences.

I'm aware of that. He was extremely genuine, and that doesn't offend me at all.

[Bill the Cat]

The expression can, certainly, but not the gospel itself.

What do you think the Gospel is?

Crude expression of dogma is part of a lot of religions. Crudity of that sort isn't the way to go when seeking to be persuasive in the long term. It makes one look like a clown.

Sugar coating the Gospel is not the way to persuade someone either. That's why so many give up once the first sign of trouble comes up.

Yes, that's from the Bible and isn't offensive in the least. Weird, yes, if believed literally (Lot offered his daughters to the rapists), but not offensive.

It doesn't offend you that the Bible would depict God killing people just for their sexual sin and inhospitality?

I'm aware of that. He was extremely genuine, and that doesn't offend me at all.

He also did not compromise the message of the cross, and the implications of not following it.

[rogue06]

What do you think the Gospel is?




Sugar coating the Gospel is not the way to persuade someone either. That's why so many give up once the first sign of trouble comes up.

Which is one of the reasons I really despise those who promote what is often called the prosperity gospel (a.k.a., the health and wealth gospel).

[whag]

What do you think the Gospel is?

Something very much like what Matt Slick describes, I would agree.


https://carm.org/what-gospel

Sugar coating the Gospel is not the way to persuade someone either. That's why so many give up once the first sign of trouble comes up.

Mullins didn’t sugarcoat the gospel, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

It doesn't offend you that the Bible would depict God killing people just for their sexual sin and inhospitality?

No, because I don’t believe that happened. Why would I be offended about something that I don’t believe occurred? Moreover, that has nothing to do with the gospel.

He also did not compromise the message of the cross, and the implications of not following it.

I didn’t say anything otherwise, and it still doesn’t “offend” me. Rather, I respect how genuine he was about his woundedness and how sacrificial he was in his living.

[Teallaura]

...

The shooting example is just dumb. Those people weren't shot because they were particularly ardent. Moreover, had they been overcome with fear and NOT identified themselves as Christian, it would say nothing about the quality of their faith and works that preceded their demise.

I am not sure how you manage to come to that conclusion for even the first guy - someone holds a gun in your face you are usually going to try really hard to say what he wants to hear. But the fact that there were multiple people killed having heard what the 'wrong' answer was and then giving that same answer themselves says a lot for their loyalty to their Savior.

Who would you have done that for?

[Cow Poke]

I know the context, and that shouldn't be extended to modern Christians to make them feel inadequate for not being persecuted. That's my point. My Christian wife's Christian aunt was going on about this verse yesterday and trying to make her "more bold" for Christ (whatever that means). Her aunt said that that boldness will make non-Christians mad at her and lash out. The implication is that the persecution that boldness provokes is evidence that one is saved. I think I easily demonstrated one can live a good Christian life without ever being persecuted.

The shooting example is just dumb. Those people weren't shot because they were particularly ardent. Moreover, had they been overcome with fear and NOT identified themselves as Christian, it would say nothing about the quality of their faith and works that preceded their demise.

I apologize, Whag. I wrongly assumed you actually wanted a discussion instead of just being an arrogant ass. Silly, silly me!

[Cow Poke]

Which is one of the reasons I really despise those who promote what is often called the prosperity gospel (a.k.a., the health and wealth gospel).

Or when somebody says "Accept Christ as Savior and all your problems will disappear".