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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Persecution as Proof of Salvation
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Rich Mullins would be a good example of a Christian who lived sacrificially but didn't suffer persecution. See the movie Ragamuffin. It's surprisingly good.
A non-Christian example of someone who lives very sacrificially would be Jose Mujica, the president of Uraguay.
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Yes, I think it could. But God isn't fooled. He knows our hearts.
Yet, here you are, an agnostic, on a Christian website, picking fights.
I can imagine a Christian living frugally and exemplifying Christian values without being persecuted.
*I'm kidding, and, no, I don't really see that as persecution. The Oregon shooting would, however, qualify, I believe, because students were killed for their belief in Christ.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Also, try reading the entire chapter for context. Paul begins with "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come", then expands on that for a number of verses, warning Timothy that things are going to get worse.
It certainly wasn't intended as a "proof of salvation".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAlso, try reading the entire chapter for context. Paul begins with "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come", then expands on that for a number of verses, warning Timothy that things are going to get worse.
It certainly wasn't intended as a "proof of salvation".
The shooting example is just dumb. Those people weren't shot because they were particularly ardent. Moreover, had they been overcome with fear and NOT identified themselves as Christian, it would say nothing about the quality of their faith and works that preceded their demise.
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Originally posted by whag View PostThe implication is that the persecution that boldness provokes is evidence that one is saved.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostNot really. The implication is that the Gospel is offensive to those who don't believe it. It has nothing to do with the one speaking.
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Originally posted by whag View PostOffensive doesn't work, so there's problem #1.
The way it's expressed can be offensive, sure, such as when a preacher wearing a sandwich board screams that students are going to hell on a college campus.
There's absolutely nothing offensive to me about how Rich Mullins and his mentors preached the gospel.
Mullins wasn't quiet about Jesus, and he lived very sacrificially.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostSure it can.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWhile a bit crude, that's a part of the Gospel.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostIncluding the line from "Awesome God" about His judgment and wrath that got poured out on Sodom?
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd he wasn't quiet about sin, even his own, and its consequences.
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Originally posted by whag View PostThe expression can, certainly, but not the gospel itself.
Crude expression of dogma is part of a lot of religions. Crudity of that sort isn't the way to go when seeking to be persuasive in the long term. It makes one look like a clown.
Yes, that's from the Bible and isn't offensive in the least. Weird, yes, if believed literally (Lot offered his daughters to the rapists), but not offensive.
I'm aware of that. He was extremely genuine, and that doesn't offend me at all.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWhat do you think the Gospel is?
Sugar coating the Gospel is not the way to persuade someone either. That's why so many give up once the first sign of trouble comes up.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWhat do you think the Gospel is?
https://carm.org/what-gospel
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostSugar coating the Gospel is not the way to persuade someone either. That's why so many give up once the first sign of trouble comes up.Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostIt doesn't offend you that the Bible would depict God killing people just for their sexual sin and inhospitality?Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostHe also did not compromise the message of the cross, and the implications of not following it.
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Originally posted by whag View Post...
The shooting example is just dumb. Those people weren't shot because they were particularly ardent. Moreover, had they been overcome with fear and NOT identified themselves as Christian, it would say nothing about the quality of their faith and works that preceded their demise.
I am not sure how you manage to come to that conclusion for even the first guy - someone holds a gun in your face you are usually going to try really hard to say what he wants to hear. But the fact that there were multiple people killed having heard what the 'wrong' answer was and then giving that same answer themselves says a lot for their loyalty to their Savior.
Who would you have done that for?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by whag View PostI know the context, and that shouldn't be extended to modern Christians to make them feel inadequate for not being persecuted. That's my point. My Christian wife's Christian aunt was going on about this verse yesterday and trying to make her "more bold" for Christ (whatever that means). Her aunt said that that boldness will make non-Christians mad at her and lash out. The implication is that the persecution that boldness provokes is evidence that one is saved. I think I easily demonstrated one can live a good Christian life without ever being persecuted.
The shooting example is just dumb. Those people weren't shot because they were particularly ardent. Moreover, had they been overcome with fear and NOT identified themselves as Christian, it would say nothing about the quality of their faith and works that preceded their demise.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWhich is one of the reasons I really despise those who promote what is often called the prosperity gospel (a.k.a., the health and wealth gospel).The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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