The Ends Don't Justify the Means

[Abykale]

Or do they? The general Christian position that kids are indoctrinated with is that they don't. Things that are wrong are always wrong, no matter what the situation. Violence, deception, and lawbreaking are always wrong, no matter what. Authorities are always to be obeyed unless they give an order directly contrary to Scripture.

But if you think about it, that seems a little odd. If you live in Nazi Germany, the Nazis are the authorities "put there by God". So does that mean you should submit to them? Should you tell them that your neighbor is hiding Jews?
Or what about killing in order to protect your family?
And what about involvement in politics? If politicians are corrupt, does that really mean that we should stay out of politics altogether?

Then there's the idea of the lesser evil or the greater good. This seems to be endorsed by apologists of the J. P. Holding variety, and to me it makes more sense, looking both at the things God did and ordered done, and at some of the things that people did and were praised for (Abigail's disobedience comes to mind, as does Jael's behavior in Judges 4). But this outlook could be used to justify bombing abortion clinics and other acts of terrorism. Not to mention Machiavellian politics. And what of the postmodern idea that it's better to be deluded and believe in God than to know the truth if the truth is that everything is meaningless -- and that we then should not rob others of their delusions -- because certain information would negatively impact society? I certainly feel violent distaste for that idea.

The examples maybe aren't all that great; come up with better ones if you'd like. At any rate both extremes seem problematic. But what I'd really like to know is, is there really even a middle ground? I'm guessing most people are somewhere in between, but can you do so and be logically consistent?

[Soyeong]

Or do they? The general Christian position that kids are indoctrinated with is that they don't. Things that are wrong are always wrong, no matter what the situation. Violence, deception, and lawbreaking are always wrong, no matter what. Authorities are always to be obeyed unless they give an order directly contrary to Scripture.

We talked about a similar issue in a thread a few days ago about whether lying as ever justified. I believe that the ends never justifies the means if you are not remaining true to yourself. However, as you pointed out, there are times when doing what is normally considered morally wrong can be justified by Scripture.

For example, God told Samuel not to tell the whole truth about what he was going to do when he came to anoint David. At one point, God told Joshua to set an ambush. So God told them to tell half-truths, commit violence, and deceit. However, in the cases in Judges and others throughout the Bible, it was their faithfulness and not the deception that got praised.

I personally think that a majority of these situations can be avoided. If someone asks you a question you don’t want to answer truthfully, you don’t have to answer them under most circumstances. Violence can be justified in self-defense, but that can usually be avoided as well. In the circumstance where doing something wrong can’t be avoided, I think that is between you and God. You can certainly do whatever it is and then repent afterwards. However, repentance doesn’t mean much if you would repeat the action the next time the same situation comes up. When it comes down to it, I don’t think we can ever be put into any situation where doing something apart from God can produce better results than placing trust and God.

[Tlalynet]

Sure the ends Justify the means, its just that people are usualy too short sighted to know the ultiamte end of their action. Theft in Mexico has devestated the economy becasue of nil consumer confidence. The end of the theft wasnt getting something and individual wanted but it was hurting a great deal of people in the manufacturing to the selling ect.
Rev Finney adressed this throughly in the 1850's too. If someone does something bad saying the ends justified it they just dont know what the true end of their action is.

[Nazaroo]

It appears that several different ideas are being jumbled together here.

(1) One is whether the ends justifies the means.

(2) Another is whether or not total honesty and transparency is an intelligent and/or biblical position to take.

(3) And another is whether or not there should be total submission to government / authority.

so although these are related, they appear to be three or more different issues, all worth exploring, as well as their connection to one another.

For starters, one can cite Jesus as a forerunner of the idea that the End DOESN"T justify the means in the normal sense, since He states,

"Whoever attempts to save his life/soul shall lose it,
and whoever loses his life/soul for My sake shall save it."

This saying and other related teachings of Jesus appear to support the more modern idea that the end does NOT justify the means. Rather at least the short-term end, or selfish goal should be abandoned in favour of doing what is ethically right or what is commanded or instructed by the Lord.

[outcast]

Lying is always WRONG!!, stealing is always wrong, The 10 commandments are absolute truth.
The 10 commandments reveal God nature, and Character. Why is Lying wrong ?? because the Word of God says "Thou shalt not bear false witness, also its wrong because God doesnt lie, therefore we should not lie because our father (God) does not lie.

Think this through in real slow, if God was to tell a half truth, when His word teaches not to Lie, then He would cease to be God because He just violated His own nature, and therefore He's not perfect and we are all damned and going to hell.
It sounds like to me their are Christians that have been taught moral relativism and it has mixed in with their faith.
Next i want to address something that is biblically wrong God said through the 10 commandments "Thou shalt not Murder" however the King James Bible and many others have mis translated it as "Kill."
With that said their are times that God will destroy nations, and Peoples, wiping them off the face of the earth, which is acceptable, and biblical. In times of war God will use other nations to destroy nations, because killing people is acceptable during war.
Perfect example, God told Saul or david i forget which one but anyways He told them to kill the women, Children, men, and cattle, to totaly wipe them off the face of the earth, i think it was King Saul. "And on the surface one might say "well thats a mean God" but what we dont know is the forget, worshiped the god Moloch- which was a god that the Amalikites offered their infants to him by burning them alive in fire. think of all the future generations that would be saved, if they were all wiped off the earth. Because King saul did not kill them all Moloch is still worshiped today, and so are the Amalikites alive today.

on another subject yes we should All Vote as Christians, Politics is where the real battle of warfare is for America. Every Christian needs to vote their Conscience or the 10 Commandments, and not their pocketbook.
on another note Sin is always sin in the eyes of God weather it be lying or murder. however when it comes to voting, their are sins that have less consequences, im speaking as a human being, for example the last election i voted for George Bush why because The Republicians at that time are against Abortion which is murder, and their against Gay marriage, where the democrat-liberals are the ones who support Gay marriage, which destroys the image of God, their Pro-choice. This year im not happy with any of the people running but i will still vote because God can only get His will done through mankinds free-will. No it was not God will to have Adolph Hitler as a Ruler

[Soyeong]

because killing people is acceptable during war.
If that is true, does it follow that there are also some conditions where lying is acceptable?

[Nazaroo]

Lying is always WRONG!!, stealing is always wrong, The 10 commandments are absolute truth.
The 10 commandments reveal God nature, and Character. Why is Lying wrong ?? because the Word of God says "Thou shalt not bear false witness, also its wrong because God doesnt lie, therefore we should not lie because our father (God) does not lie.

Think this through in real slow, if God was to tell a half truth, when His word teaches not to Lie, then He would cease to be God because He just violated His own nature, and therefore He's not perfect and we are all damned and going to hell.
It sounds like to me their are Christians that have been taught moral relativism and it has mixed in with their faith.


Does this really make sense to you?

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KILLING: WHEN IS IT ALLOWED?


The other poster brought up the difficult problem of killing. There are several circumstances in which killing occurs:

(1) Individual willful acts of violence (FORBIDDEN - e.g. Cain and Abel)

(2) Law enforcement (ALLOWED - e.g. Moses and the firewood gatherer Num. 15:30-36)

(3) Warfare (ALLOWED - e.g. Joshua & the 5 Amorite kings Josh. 10:17-27)

(4) Self-Defence (ALLOWED - e.g. Break and Enter / Robbery Exod. 22:2)

(5) The forbidding of killing (FORBIDDEN - Exod. 20:13 etc.)

Clearly the O.T. Law makes significant allowances and distinctions and exceptions in the various cases of killing.

Yet even killing in Warfare is not a "right" or a 'carde-blanche' proposition. There were many circumstances in war where even killing opposing soldiers was clearly wrong and forbidden: (2nd Kings 6:21-22 !)



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

LYING AND DECEPTION: WHEN IS IT ALLOWED?


Now the difficult problem of Deception and Lying. There several circumstances where deception and lying occurs:

(1) Deception In Warfare (ALLOWED - e.g. Gideon's small army Judges 7:2-23)

(2) Deception In Catching Frauds and Hypocrites

(ALLOWED - e.g. against David 2nd Sam 12:1-7, against King Ahab Ist Kings 20:35-43,
by Jesus against the Religious Rulers of Jerusalem, Matt. 11:19-20 )

(3) Deception to Escape Evildoers (ALLOWED - e.g. Paul, Acts 9:23-25)

(4) Deception to Achieve God's Purpose (ALLOWED - e.g. Paul, Acts 23:6)

(5) Selective Revelation to the worthy only (ALLOWED - e.g. Jesus, Matt. 13:11 etc.)

(6) Deception of the Unworthy (ALLOWED - e.g. Jehovah, Isa. 66:4, 2nd Thess. 2:11)


What can we learn from this? That Prudence, caution, and care are required in managing truth.

Jesus taught also this general principle:

"Do not cast your pearls before swine" (Matt. 7:6)

The pearls are obviously the Words of God.

Jesus taught also,

"Be wise as serpents, and gentle as doves." (Matt. 10:16)

It follows that with the possession of great and even dangerous truths, great responsibility and descretion is also needed.

It is true that Jesus prophesied,

"That which you have whispered in closets,
shall be proclaimed upon the housetops." (Luke 12:3)

And indeed,

"There is noting covered, that will not be revealed." (LUke 12:2)

And we are to be ready at least to preach the GOSPEL both
'in and out of season' (2 Tim 4:2)

But we are plainly warned not to reveal other truths out of season,
for to everything there is a time and a season (Eccl. 3:1)

and, most importantly,

"whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that trusts in Me,
it is better for him that a millstone were hanged on his neck,
and he were cast into the sea!" (Mark 9:42)

So you can't just throw around truth indescriminately without a care to who is injured by it.

Truth is not the highest principle, but Love is! (1 Cor. 13:13)

Even Paul avoided out of season arguments over trivial things, in the interests of peace.
Paul did not serve 'truth', Paul served the LORD.



Be sneaky as serpents, but kind as doves.

Peace,
Nazaroo

[outcast]

[Yet even killing in Warfare is not a "right" or a 'carde-blanche' proposition. There were many circumstances in war where even killing opposing soldiers was clearly wrong and forbidden: (2nd Kings 6:21-22!

Well of course we dont kill prisoners of war, im talking about warfare, and yes you are correct God set up laws for Civil Law and for Government, which are different from going to war.

3) Deception to Escape Evildoers (ALLOWED - e.g. Paul, Acts 9:23-25)
Deception what deception????? Do you realize what you are saying. If someone planed on killing me and was waiting for me i would escape to , thats not deceptive!!

(4) Deception to Achieve God's Purpose (ALLOWED - e.g. Paul, Acts 23:6)
SO you think God uses deception to fufill His will, If that is true then Hes not God because, that violates his nature, Apostle Paul was using WISDOM, not deception, as you claim.

God is truth therefore yes Paul did serve truth, He preached truth "Thou art the Christ the son of the Living God"

"Be wise as serpents, and gentle as doves." (Matt. 10:16)

I dont even want to awnser this one, ARE YOU SAYING JESUS USED DECEPTION ?????

If Jesus used deception then He is not the son of God and we are all damned and going to Hell!
Either you dont understand something or God is a liar whos right you or God??????????

[Nazaroo]

[Yet even killing in Warfare is not a "right" or a 'carde-blanche' proposition. There were many circumstances in war where even killing opposing soldiers was clearly wrong and forbidden: (2nd Kings 6:21-22!

Well of course we dont kill prisoners of war, im talking about warfare, and yes you are correct God set up laws for Civil Law and for Government, which are different from going to war.


Good. You have no trouble understanding that different circumstances can require different operating principles and rules.


3) Deception to Escape Evildoers (ALLOWED - e.g. Paul, Acts 9:23-25)

Deception what deception????? Do you realize what you are saying. If someone planed on killing me and was waiting for me i would escape too , thats not deceptive!!


This is just denial.

Everyone older than 12 knows that there are two ways to commit a sin: By act of commission or act of OMISSION.

For instance, if I see a blind man walking toward a cliff and do nothing, and he falls off, that's murder, even though I did not move a muscle or commit any action.

In exactly the same manner, everyone knows that you can commit lies by acts of OMISSION just as easily as by acts of commission.

That is, you can tell a 'lie' by simply withholding important information.

You can also deceive someone without involving the communication of speech at all. For instance, "plainclothes police" are deceiving people by disguising themselves, and performing magicians use distraction and sleight of hand to deceive their audience.

While you may claim that 'technically' speaking, these people are not "LYING", because they are not "speaking" at all, everybody with a brain understands that the deception is basically the same in nature and ethical value.

For instance, if I disguise a cliff as a safe walkway, or make a fake railing, or if I use sleight of hand or distraction to make the blindman fall off the cliff, then I am guilty of the exact same moral crime and ethical violation. Murder by deception.

Its exactly the same in quality and nature as if I lied to the blind man or failed to tell him about the cliff by keeping silent.

Any reasonable person would call all those variations in method identical from an ethical and moral point of view, and a judge would find all the people doing these things guilty of the same crime: murder by deception.

Now that is the basic meaning of deception.

And so it is quite correct to say that Paul deceived (the verb form of the noun, "deception") his enemies in this case, by withholding his true whereabouts from them.

Your emotional reaction to calling this a 'deception' is valueless.

From a technical and factual standpoint, this was an act of deception by Paul, and so my example stands.

You say "its not deceptive", but of course it is. Thats what the word deception/deceive/deceptive means.





(4) Deception to Achieve God's Purpose (ALLOWED - e.g. Paul, Acts 23:6)
SO you think God uses deception to fufill His will, If that is true then Hes not God because, that violates his nature, Apostle Paul was using WISDOM, not deception, as you claim.


Now you are just playing word games. Paul engaged in a legitimate deception. But its still deception.

He tricked stupid people into arguing with one another, and caused a division between them. He did this on purpose, and it was a cheap trick.

Yes it was also wisdom, (in hindsight), but it was clearly a trick, a deception.

He was not any longer one of the party of the Pharisees, and this was the basic LIE.



God is truth therefore yes Paul did serve truth, He preached truth "Thou art the Christ the son of the Living God"


No. The Bible (New Testament) teaches that God is Love (1st John 4:8).

You are adding unto the Holy Scriptures, and as a result, you are creating a false dilemma and a false doctrine.

The Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Truth. But this Spirit of Truth does not come to EVERYONE, but only to those to whom the Christ sends Him.





"Be wise as serpents, and gentle as doves." (Matt. 10:16)

I dont even want to awnser this one, ARE YOU SAYING JESUS USED DECEPTION ?????

If Jesus used deception then He is not the son of God and we are all damned and going to Hell!
Either you dont understand something or God is a liar whos right you or God??????????

Wrong. Jesus indeed used deception. And He is STILL the Son of God.

God is not a LIAR. The word "LIAR" is also defined by Holy Scripture: (1st Jn 2:22, 4:20) By this definition, God is no liar.

God warns all men that He certainly WILL deceive the wicked, and trap them in their own schemes.

God deceives the wicked, (2nd Thess.2:11) and rightly so.


The REAL God is a dangerous adversary, and far more clever than any man alive or dead.
You would be a fool to think that you can hold God to your naive and simple standard.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts." says the Lord.

God is not a simpleton or a machine, that you can program to do your will, or trick by holding Him to your interpretation of His word. He will make a fool out of you.

"I am the Eye in the Sky, looking at you....I can read your mind.
I am the Eye in the Sky, looking at you....I can cheat you blind." (Alan Parsons Project song)



Live with it.

Peace,
Nazaroo

[outcast]

Wrong. Jesus indeed used deception. And He is STILL the Son of God.

God is not a LIAR. The word "LIAR" is also defined by Holy Scripture: (1st Jn 2:22, 4:20) By this definition, God is no liar.

God warns all men that He certainly WILL deceive the wicked, and trap them in their own schemes.

God deceives the wicked, (2nd Thess.2:11) and rightly so.

Jesus Cannot use deception it 's pretty simple, unless of course one doesn't take the bible literal.
Jesus Cannot be the Son of God and be deceptive because Jesus is God , and God cannot lie, and if God were to lie then He would cease to be God end of Story.

Oh ya and by the way 2nd Thessalonians 2:11 is a result of mans FREE-WILL to reject the Love of God, and choose to live for sin, so God is not deceiving anyone because that is against His nature. Same truth is found in Romans about a "Retrobate mind" for rejecting the knowledge of God.

And last 1John 2:22 is not a deffinition of The word "Liar" rather if you read the context it says "Who is a liar, not what a lie is.
A "Lie" is something that covers the truth.

[Nazaroo]

Wrong. Jesus indeed used deception. And He is STILL the Son of God.

God is not a LIAR. The word "LIAR" is also defined by Holy Scripture: (1st Jn 2:22, 4:20) By this definition, God is no liar.

God warns all men that He certainly WILL deceive the wicked, and trap them in their own schemes.

God deceives the wicked, (2nd Thess.2:11) and rightly so.

Jesus Cannot use deception it 's pretty simple, unless of course one doesn't take the bible literal.
Jesus Cannot be the Son of God and be deceptive because Jesus is God , and God cannot lie,
and if God were to lie then He would cease to be God end of Story.


You say Jesus is God, and God cannot lie.
You equate lying with any and all forms of deception, and I agree with you.

However, you refuse to acknowledge the plain teaching of Holy Scripture,
both by plain statements and clear illustrations, that God indeed does engage in deception.

God deceives the wicked repeatedly, and does so for good moral reasons.
But they are His own reasons.

The problem here comes from your refusal to accept the plain teachings about God from Holy Scripture itself,
and your insistence on imposing your own morals and values upon God.

You will get nowhere this way.
God has His own ethical standards and moral values, and they are NOT YOURS.


And again, the reason why your standards and values are NOT God's, is that He is God, and you are not.

You, like Job, are talking through your hat. (Job 40:8 etc.)





Oh ya and by the way 2nd Thessalonians 2:11 is a result of mans FREE-WILL to reject the Love of God, and choose to live for sin, so God is not deceiving anyone because that is against His nature. Same truth is found in Romans about a "Retrobate mind" for rejecting the knowledge of God.


This is no argument or refutation at all.

We agree that the wicked are wicked, and that they deserve their fate.
So God deceives them and remains righteous.

But God still deceives them. He blinds them.

He shuts them off from the truth, because they have rejected both God and some truth already.

He deceives them and entraps them in their own schemes, because God is just.



And last 1John 2:22 is not a deffinition of The word "Liar"
rather if you read the context
it says "Who is a liar, not what a lie is.
A "Lie" is something that covers the truth.


Again, you are not being honest about 1st John.

The fact is, this passage in John's letter describes carefully the behaviour of the LIAR.

It sets a new Godly standard for determining who is a LIAR and who is TRUE.

If John is NOT defining the essence of lying, the central issue
and the most important lies from God's viewpoint, then John is wasting our time.

Finally, you again reject the plain teaching of Holy Scripture, and offer your own definition of LYING.


'A "Lie" is something that covers the truth.'

Your definition is imprecise and not scriptural.
But it is adequate enough to prove that God does indeed deceive the wicked.

Your definition says essentially that any covering up, any hiding of truth is a 'LIE'.

But God does not offer ALL truth to all men. Plainly, by your own definition,
God covers truth and hides it from men. and so God 'Lies' according to your definition.


He only offers the truths He knows are useful for them and that they can understand and accept.
To pretend that we, with our limited intellect and short timespan could learn ALL TRUTH is absurd.

And of course this means that God must be selective in providing us with truths.
The Lord decides what truths are important,
and the Lord decides what truths we will be judged by and held accountable for.

It is true that the Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL TRUTH (Jn 16:13),
but only if we remain in the Vine for an infinity of time (Jn 15:6)
The Lord decides what truth will be.

The Lord creates ALL that is created, and without the LOGOS,
the Christ, Jesus the Messiah, is not one thing in all creation that has ever been created.
God creates all truth and all deception.

He is sovereign over all things, including truth.

You cannot know the truth, but only the truth which the Lord chooses to reveal to you.

Peace,
Nazaroo

[outcast]

The problem here comes from your refusal to accept the plain teachings about God from Holy Scripture itself,
and your insistence on imposing your own morals and values upon God.

I belive the Bible as Absolute truth. I dont impose my Morals God makes the Rules found in the 10 commanments, God is a victim of His Own words. once God says something He cannot change. God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

But God still deceives them. He blinds them.

He shuts them off from the truth, because they have rejected both God and some truth already.

He deceives them and entraps them in their own schemes, because God is just.
When mankind rejects the truth, then mankind opens themselves up to be deceived by Satan (who is the god of this world Who Blinds the minds not GOD as is against His nature.

The Lord creates ALL that is created, and without the LOGOS,
the Christ, Jesus the Messiah, is not one thing in all creation that has ever been created.
God creates all truth and all deception.
one cannot associate deception with God, God is perfect, to associate deception with God is to say God is a deceiver. The bible says the devil is a deceiver

our definition is imprecise and not scriptural.
But it is adequate enough to prove that God does indeed deceive the wicked.

Your definition says essentially that any covering up, any hiding of truth is a 'LIE'.

But God does not offer ALL truth to all men. Plainly, by your own definition,
God covers truth and hides it from men. and so God 'Lies' according to your definition.


He only offers the truths He knows are useful for them and that they can understand and accept.
To pretend that we, with our limited intellect and short timespan could learn ALL TRUTH is absurd.

And of course this means that God must be selective in providing us with truths.
The Lord decides what truths are important,
and the Lord decides what truths we will be judged by and held accountable for.

The definition for a lie is very scriptural, thats what Satan does he covers the truth.
Well of course God Knows more truth then mankind. The bible says "My thoughts, ways are higher then your ways, thoughts. God desires for all his people to know the truth. You just have to access it.
A person can only walk in the truth to the degree of truth he has. and you can gain more truth by learning of Jesus.

[Tlalynet]

Intresting,
Nazroo,
If you say the ends dont justify the means in a normal sense thats fine as long as by normal you mean the way most people would think of it. I said that breifly before. Your quote is intersting though as it seems to be to be one of the strong statments that the ultimate end is the only justification.

Whoever attempts to save his life/soul shall lose it,
and whoever loses his life/soul for My sake shall save it."

Saving the soul is the end, self preservation is, to the norm, a good means but is unjutified because of the bad end while loss, which to the norm is a bad thing, is a good thing justified by the end of salvation.
Christ teaching is a constant of go for what is lasting no matter the cost of what is now. Keep your eye on the prize and your treasures in heaven. Whatever is done for the glofication of God and his Kingdom is good, whatever goes for this earth is unjustified. For this reason the accumilation of wealth for its own sake is an unjustified action, its end is nothing. For this reason the loss of life as a martyr is a good thing, its end is the glory of God and its end is one of the greatest attainable.

Outcast,
Lets not get too bogged down if we can avoid it, you say a lie is a lie and there can be no justification. But weather the lie is right or wrong is subject to the motives and purpose of the lie. If I may, I have lied to my wife about remebering our Anniversary and feign ignorance to the point of her anger, then spring on her elaborate plans to her joy. You cannot deny this is a lie, can you say that it is sinfull?
It is, after all, outright deception.

[Nazaroo]

Intresting,
Nazroo,
If you say the ends dont justify the means in a normal sense thats fine as long as by normal you mean the way most people would think of it. I said that breifly before. Your quote is intersting though as it seems to be to be one of the strong statments that the ultimate end is the only justification.

Whoever attempts to save his life/soul shall lose it,
and whoever loses his life/soul for My sake shall save it."

Saving the soul is the end, self preservation is, to the norm, a good means but is unjutified because of the bad end while loss, which to the norm is a bad thing, is a good thing justified by the end of salvation.
Christ teaching is a constant of go for what is lasting no matter the cost of what is now. Keep your eye on the prize and your treasures in heaven. Whatever is done for the glofication of God and his Kingdom is good, whatever goes for this earth is unjustified. For this reason the accumilation of wealth for its own sake is an unjustified action, its end is nothing. For this reason the loss of life as a martyr is a good thing, its end is the glory of God and its end is one of the greatest attainable.


I think you are right. There is a deep paradox here, and it can't just easily be rationalized away.

While I think the meaning of the Holy Scripture is not in doubt, its philosophical implications are difficult and complex.





Outcast,
Lets not get too bogged down if we can avoid it, you say a lie is a lie and there can be no justification. But weather the lie is right or wrong is subject to the motives and purpose of the lie. If I may, I have lied to my wife about remebering our Anniversary and feign ignorance to the point of her anger, then spring on her elaborate plans to her joy. You cannot deny this is a lie, can you say that it is sinfull?
It is, after all, outright deception.

I agree here too.

If my 6 yr old asks me how to start the car, I don't show him. I withhold truth from him until he is ready to be responsible enough to guard it. Until then I have denied him the truth. Whether we call that 'deception' or not is just a question of semantics.

The fact remains that TRUTH, like every other commodity, requires regulation and control. It can't be FREELY handed out.

For instance, as a physicist and chemist I know how to make many kinds of dangerous explosive devices. But I don't publish HOW TOs on the internet, because that would be irresponsible, and stupid and immoral people would injure themselves and others.

I deliberately deny the public access to dangerous truths.

Similarly, no responsible parent would leave a loaded gun lying around in a nursery full of children. Again, what are we doing? Restricting access to resources, in the interests of care and compasssion, and justice and responsibility.

So both TRUTH, and all other resources, must be handled with care and controlled. This is simply Good Stewardship, and it means that a certain amount of deception and denial must take place.

Knowledge is not FREE, but must be handled responsibly. This is not to deny free speech, or freedom of the press, or the right to the truth, or transparency in government, but all these things have to be managed in the context of the greatest good, and with the guidance of the Law of God.

[Tlalynet]

Nazroo,
Im glad we have agreement, I respect your posts and your vow very much.
Good illistrations, I will remeber those as they will undoubtedly come in usefull in other debates as well.

[Nazaroo]

Nazroo,
Im glad we have agreement, I respect your posts and your vow very much.
Good illistrations, I will remeber those as they will undoubtedly come in usefull in other debates as well.

Thanks! I don't expect people to agree with me on everything, but some things are pretty straightforward.

These examples don't excuse deception, particularly where the motive is unethical, and/or the circumstances create a grey area.

But the basic principle that truth must be managed responsibly still appears to hold up well.

There are many situations where witholding information or misleading foolish or dangerous people appears to be a necessity. For instance, we might lie to a drunk, in order to get the keys to his car out of his hand.

Or we might be forced to respond with a lie rather than simply withholding information, in order not to reveal a dangerous truth to the wrong person.

In all these cases, its not whether technically an act of speaking a falsehood knowingly has occurred, but rather what were the circumstances, and what was the motive of the act, and possibly also, (if the attempt was unsuccessful) how realistic was the proposal in the first place?

Finally, for Christians, one needs to consider whether one is acting on your own, following a plain commandment of God, or actually denying a plain principle of God we are expected to believe and incorporate into our worldview.