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Yog^sothoth
August 14th 2003, 08:13 PM
The Scandal of the Framework

by Automatthew (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/member.php?action=getinfo&find=lastposter&threadid=996)

The Plan

We begin with a Fable with a Cryptic Moral which runs headlong into an Infinite Slope. The slope drops us into Jam, both Tomorrow and Yesterday, but we are saved by the guardian angels of Conjecture and Refutation. Our guardians flee at the thunderous steps of the Baby-Proofed Mind, leaving us Stumbling-Block Free. The landscape now seems so plain and unchallenging we might as well be standing still, but the Scandal of the title offers to explain the cryptic moral, and we retire to seek an Apology for it all.

The Fable with a Cryptic Moral

Long ago, in a small town, a man some called a prophet spoke of a great event that had not yet happened.
"How will we know when it has happened?" his disciples asked.
"On the day of the great event," he said, "the hide of a purple cow will be displayed for all to see." His disciples, with little delay, fell into disagreement over the meaning of the prophecy.

After many years, two schools of interpretation emerged: the Globalists and the Sacrificialists. The Globalists believed that, on the day in question, the skies all over the world would take on the appearance of purple fur, as if the globe had been enwrapped by a hide. The Sacrificialists believed the prophecy predicted that an actual purple cow would be slaughtered and skinned, the hide would be nailed to the side of a wagon, and the whole assemblage would be driven to the town square "for all to see." The Globalists thought that the day had not yet come, while the Sacrificialists believed the day had already passed. A bitter dispute ensued.

The antagonists in this dispute, being at heart peaceful people, readily agreed to the proposal by the town drunk that they surrender their pitchforks and axes and settle the issue in a debate. Professing neutrality on the matter, the town drunk offered to judge the debate, in exchange for as much as he could drink after it. The townsfolk accepted. Each group chose one man to speak for them, and they all followed their judge to his court.

At the tavern, the judge took his chair as the debaters took their stands. The representative for the Globalists, by virtue of having a louder voice, was selected to begin the debate.

"The Great Event has not yet come," he said. "How could anyone have missed it, if it had? Who would fail to notice a sky of violet hue and woolly texture? Would not at least one of the leisured historians among our ancestors, plentiful as they were, have left us even a trifling notice in his diary? 'Dear Diary, Nothing to report today. P.S. The sky turned purple for a bit.' But no. The sky has never turned purple, therefore the Great Event has not yet passed."

"You great, braying ass," said his opponent, "The Great Event has passed and is gone. My own father's father found and sacrificed a purple heifer from among his own herd. A normal sized cow, I might add. Where on earth is the cow whose hide could cover the whole sky, whether it is purple or not?"

The judge then found himself robbed of his reward, for after this first and only exchange, everyone went home. Filled with scorn and convinced of victory, they all congratulated themselves for their common sense and pitied their opponents for their utter stupidity.

The town drunk was left, dry and alone, in the street outside the tavern. Loudly bemoaning the uselessness of discourse, he carefully returned all the axes and pitchforks to their rightful owners.

Moral: A begged question is a missed opportunity to take offense.

The Infinite Slope

Knowledge is a tricky thing. Or a tricky concept, or expectation. A trick of memory? We don't really know what knowledge is, though there's a whole school of philosophy devoted to it with a fancy Greek name. We can't even talk about knowing what knowledge is without slipping into a circles: How do we know what we know? How do we know that we actually know what we know? Can we know whether we actually know what we think we know? When you're sure that what you know is knowable and you know what it means to know it, the rest of us begin to suspect that whatever it is you think you know, you don't. How many times can I use the word "know" before it starts looking foreign and uncouth? I'm having trouble with "know" now, and "now" begins to look odd itself by association. Knowledge can suffer from too much handling.

A constant danger in the investigation of knowledge is infinite regression. My favorite example of infinite regression is the (likely apocryphal) story based on an ancient cosmology that supposed a flat earth resting on the shell of a great turtle. When the cosmologist was asked on what the turtle rested, he gave the legendary answer: "It's turtles all the way down."

Moderns tend not to recognize the slip down the infinite slope, even as we slide. You tramp along on what you think is solid ground, making good progress, if you can judge by the wind in your hair. But the motion is vertical and your efforts have little to do with it. The fatal first step is definition of terms. When you accept the necessity of defining your terms, you are bound to the necessity of defining the terms used in your definition. And of course the second rank of definitions plead to be defined as well. If you are exceedingly fortunate, some of your terms will be definable using the words you started with. You now have a tidy little circle from which to argue.

Some try to cut short the regression by stopping at undefinable terms, or first principles: axioms that bear the weight of all knowledge. But how do we know the axioms are true? You are assuming, but why should I assume what you assume? And should you try to prove your axiom, to justify your claim, you will be jumping right back into an infinite regression. You are better off claiming axioms all the way down. Trying to prove anything, to verify anything, is only another path to the infinite slope. Justification of knowledge is impossible. Verification of knowledge is impossible. We simply cannot prove anything is true.

People speak of logic as if it could prove the truth of a proposition. It cannot. Deduction, what people usually mean, can show that a conclusion is true if the premises are [/b]assumed[/b] to be true. Philosophers have known about this for a long time, but it doesn't seem to bother most of them. Some think they've found a way to surpass the modest claims of deduction. They call it induction, or inductive logic, but it is not logical, and it is quite immodest.

Jam Tomorrow, because Jam Yesterday

Induction is partly founded on the irrational idea that repetition is a useful source of knowledge. It often borrows some of the respect accorded deductive reasoning by imitating the language of logic. But instead of saying, "if A and B: then C," induction says, "if A and A: then A and also A. Oh, and by the way . . . A."

Induction is what happens when you say: "Because this same thing has happened five hundred times, it must happen the five hundred and first." If the thing is the rising of the sun, your conclusion may turn out to be correct. If the thing is a car making one lap around the track at the Indianapolis 500, you and induction are about to share a disappointment. Induction does not return consistent results. The same premises do not reliably produce the same conclusions, and it can be clearly shown that predictions made solely based on inductive reasoning are frequently wrong, even when all the premises are true. Another form of inductive reasoning supposes that observation of non-repetitive events is sufficient to prove knowledge, so long as you have enough observations. A critical mass of observations can apparently produce knowledge, wholly formed, like Athena from the brow of Zeus.

We cannot understand why induction fails to correctly predict the differing outcomes of the sun versus the race car simply by adding more occurrences to the data-sheet. You will never determine why the sun and the race car behave differently by watching the sun come up a few more times or watching the race car not go around the track. To explain, we must introduce theories or guesses that ar e not derivable from the premises, meaning from the observation of repetition. Working solely from a pile of observations, we have no way to distinguish between the behavior of the sun and the behavior of the car. They both go around things, right? The post-Copernican West may now believe that the rising of the sun is caused by the rotation of the earth, but inductive reasoning would have us deny it. In fact we find that the father of inductive reasoning, Francis Bacon, strongly opposed the heliocentric model of the solar system: "Don't theorize, he said, but open your eyes and observe without prejudice, and you cannot doubt that the Sun moves and that the Earth is at rest," (Popper, p.85). Inductive reasoning exalts the senses over the mind that exercises them.

Thus induction suggests that observations are the sole foundation of knowledge. But this begs a very important question about the nature of observations. Observations are not neutral, as induction would suggest; they are not passive, happenstance recordings of bland fact. You observe what you are looking for, what you already in some way think is interesting or important. Observation is an active endeavor, an attempt to raise up peaks of coherence from an ocean of noise. Observation superimposes our existing expectations over the mess and cacophony of sensation. When we observe, or try to notice patterns, we are filtering, not passively recording.

Induction became the default explanation for learning partly because it makes an end run around the limitations of regular logic, and partly because our own assumptions and expectations seem so natural to us that they become transparent. A trivial example: vowels in English are much more loosely bounded than in tonal languages such as Chinese. English speakers barely notice tonal or pitch variations in vowels. Even if they are noticed, they certainly don't affect the meaning of words, but in tonal languages, the intonation of a vowel sound is part of the vowel. Words can depend on differences in pitch. A less trivial example is the well-known factoid about the Eskimos having eleventy-three different words for snow. Words aside, Eskimos have different assumptions about the world than we do, assumptions that allow them to notice fine distinctions where we may only observe a mass of white.

So if observation is not passive, if our every intake from the world is filtered by assumptions that cannot be proven, then what hope do we have? Can we know anything?

Conjectures and Refutations

The answer, according to Karl Popper, is to ignore that question and formulate better ones. Do not ask: How can I know I am right? Ask, instead: How can I best avoid being wrong? How can I determine when I am in error and learn from my mistakes? Can we approach truth asymptotically? When your aim is to justify, your assumptions will remain transparent; if they are in error, they will remain so. If your aim is to eliminate error, your assumptions must be examined. Examining your assumptions does not automatically result in error correction, but it makes it possible. An examined assumption is almost a theory, and theories can be tested. All our knowledge and all our beliefs, says Popper, are theories we have not yet disproved. This does not mean we should refrain from acting on our knowledge, or that we may dispense with our beliefs. Your body of understanding is a framework, and you are already shaped by it. No one can act or think outside of the bounds of his framework. An attempt to do so does not free a man of his framework; it confines him to a small, cramped twist of it: the part that denies the rest exists.

To treat all your knowledge as conjectural is to have the humility to accept that humans are not omniscient. Knowledge need not be dogma. Conjectural knowledge may be submitted to criticism and, more importantly, may be defended. Only in defense of our theories can we find their strengths and weaknesses. We may discover that some of our theories have more weakness than strength; in that case we should look to repair or replace them. Or we may find an idea has unexpected strength. A theory that has been subjected to criticism and emerged intact is a valuable possession, but even more valuable is a theory that has been reforged in the fire.

We should also recognize that worthwhile criticism requires opposition from people who disagree with us. It is not enough to discuss our theories only with those who hold the same ideas. This ought to be a trivial proposition, but it is in direct contradiction to a popular idea which Karl Popper calls the myth of the framework. The idea is that a "rational and fruitful discussion is impossible unless the participants share a common framework of basic assumptions . . ." (Popper, p.34). Popper strongly objects. He contends that the proponents of this myth mistake winning a debate for the goal of discussion, when that goal should always be to advance ever closer to truth. "For what they have to learn is that victory in a debate is nothing, while even the slightest clarification of one's problem - even the smallest contribution made towards a clearer understanding of one's own position or that of one's opponent - is a great success. A discussion which you win but which fails to help you to change or to clarify your mind at least a little should be regarded as a sheer loss. For this very reason no change in one's position should be made surreptitiously, but it should always be stressed and its consequences explored," (p. 44). Fruitful discussions expand and clarify our knowledge, even if it is only our knowledge of our opponents. Agreement is not the goal of discourse.

Baby-proofed Minds

The myth of the framework is either an outgrowth or a root cause of cultural relativism; I'm not sure which. Either way, I think it's very bad. Relativism, cultural or any other kind, takes something away from us, something I consider very important: Relativism leads to the extinction of offense. In the place of being offended, we are given magic words to mutter as a protective mantra, "Who am I to judge?" The only offense good relativists are allowed to take is at someone else having the presumption to take offense. "How dare you? How dare you take offense at something I have the good sense not to?"

Being offended is offensive, you see, much more so than trying to offend. I don't just mean in moral matters, either. Ideas can offend, just as much as behavior, yet in our modern squeamishness, we have confused taking offense with intolerance. In striving for a civilization that tolerates different beliefs, we have formed one that discourages meaningful dialogue between them.

You are not taking another man seriously if you are not willing to let him offend you. The same is true for an idea or a culture. Refusal to take offense is condescension. If you are not willing to say someone is wrong, you are not doing him the courtesy of believing he matters. If what a man believes or does challenges your ideas of what is true, or just, or right, to avoid acknowledging the conflict is to deny him equality. Unless, of course, you value your own beliefs as little as you value his. I suspect that, in most cases, this is actually the problem.

Relativism spares us the trouble of taking our beliefs seriously. We still get to have some; we can pull them out occasionally to play and tinker and show them off, but they go right back in the box when we're done with them. The price is high, though. Sustaining this nursery-life requires a substantial amount of baby-proofing. No sharp edges allowed. All soft corners, and nothing to stumble over.

100% Stumbling-block free!

Offense is a stumbling block and a scandal. I believe it should be common, but that our civilization takes great pains to mitigate it, to ignore it or interpret it away. This idea is wholly unoriginal, borrowed from Kierkegaard, by way of David McCracken's The Scandal of the Gospels. The scandal of his title is, at the most superficial level, the Greek word skandalon. Here's the standard lexicon definition:

a. a trap, snare
b. any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling
c. fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him...

McCracken describes why skandalon is difficult to translate: "There is no good single word to be found to serve as an equivalent for the idea and the word - skandalon - that contained a certain power two thousand years ago." He settles on "scandal" and "offense" as the best English handles for the concept. Forms of the root skand- are common in the New Testament, and McCracken believes that the concept of offense is key to the Gospel stories of Jesus, especially the parables. Most of his book is an investigation into the parables with the skandalon as a touchstone. The short version of his thesis is "Jesus offends." Those confronted with the scandal of his behavior either stumbled or knelt.

The skandalon that interests me is the idea of offense as an occasion for change. Stumble or kneel in reaction to offense, but at least you react. The unoffendable are unaffectable, because you can't stumble when you are standing still.

The Scandal of the Framework

I would put scandals back in everybody's way, though they would be minor in comparison to the offenses offered by the Christ of the Gospels. They do not demand that you submit or defy. They do insist that you react, that you consider. These stumbling blocks are the frameworks of those who disagree with us. Our opponents must not be ignored, or belittled, or explained away. Other men have seen the same world, but they have not come to the same conclusions; how is this possible? Do their theories expose weaknesses in mine? Can I show that their ideas are wrong? What assumptions have I blindly made?

Without the scandal of the alien framework, we all stand still. If you have not lately tripped over strange ideas, be sure that you are calcifying your own.

Circling Back

As quickly as our civilization marginalizes offense, it softens the concepts that once supported it. English has nearly surrendered the original meaning of begging the question. Malapropism of, by, and for the masses has made it mean something like "what you just said implies that we should ask something," instead of the original accusation of faulty reasoning. The deed is done, or nearly so, and I can't say that we will much miss the old definition since we can just use the word "argument" to mean the same thing. Nobody will notice.

For arguments are increasingly composed of little more than endlesss exchanges of begged questions. I'll box with your shadow if you'll box with mine. Your beliefs are not compatible with my assumptions. You're not listening. No, you're not listening.

Begging the question is a handy way to avoid offense while getting all the thrills of taking it. You get to argue, and you get to scorn, but you have not been touched. You have not stumbled. You are not moved.

An Apology for the Article

The fable of the purple cow is an attempt to illustrate the offensiveness of inoffensiveness in a mildly offensive way. The original version of the fable was offered as an offense in the midst of a singularly frustrating discussion on a singularly frustrating topic. I was a lurker, wishing I could be a learner, but there was no chance of this happening; every single proponent of the more popular view contrived to beg the absolute root question with every breath. Exasperated, I wrote an off-the-cuff analogy highly critical of the behavior of the one side: Question-begging is offensive, and I intended to offend in turn. Not much came of it then, but the Fairest Site-Owner of Them All took an interest in the fable and asked me to expand on it in this space.


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References:
Karl R. Popper. "The Myth of the Framework", The Myth of the Framework.
David McCracken. The Scandal of the Gospels.
Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Skandalon". The New Testament Greek Lexicon.

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Notice - The featuring of a particular member article does not constitute endorsement of every single item or point of view contained therein by each and every member of TheologyWeb leadership. We strive to have a varied cross-section of representations of differing opinions on secondary Christian issues. The only requirement for the featuring of a particular article is that said article must not contradict the essentials articulated in the TheologyWeb statement of faith found here in our Mission Statement (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/mission/)or be blatantly offensive to the Christian worldview of the site Owners.

skyhog99
August 16th 2003, 01:55 PM
The view from a preterist...

Assumptions:
1. The Bible is the infallible word of God.
2. Jesus made statements that he was coming back and that it was going to be soon --- within the lifetimes of the then living generation.
3. He didn't come back.

A futurist cannot give on #1 and #3 so he must change the meaning of #2 to say "He didn't really mean he was coming back soon; it just sounded like it". OK, let's allow that option to play out. In the discussion they say things like "Paul was limited by the flesh". But it is Paul's words (and Jesus') that we are trying to affirm in #1!!! By allowing that Paul might be limited by the flesh we have essentially refuted #1!

Then they might go on to say that it is a book of the Spirit and the plain meaning of the words is not the correct way of interpretation. Is this suggesting that Paul didn't really understand what he was saying but the futurist does???

The positions can be summed up as follows:

The atheist affirms #2 and #3 and in the process refutes #1.

The preterist affirms #2, denies #3 and thereby affirms #1. He does this by saying that we have misunderstood what "coming" means. He points to the OT and all the other cloud comings of God in making his argument.

The futurist affirms #3 but must rework #2 to something other than the plain meaning of "soon" and "generation". He points to passages in the OT where the word "generation" has a different connotation (that it means a moral relationship and not necessarily a 30-40 year period). He is left in the position of having to assume #1 in order to to affirm it.

The atheist just laughs. The preterist sighs.

The cycle repeats ad nauseum...

In Christ,
Skyhog99

Dee Dee Warren
August 18th 2003, 12:49 AM
I am going on a cruise... but I am planning in reading this thoroughly when I get back.

Dee Dee Warren
August 22nd 2003, 11:43 PM
Matthew, I loved the article!!! Most excellent, and of course, calling me the Fairest Site Owner of them all helped. Your "parable" so hit the nail on the head of what happens in some debates that I will never forget it.

And I loved this:


A constant danger in the investigation of knowledge is infinite regression. My favorite example of infinite regression is the (likely apocryphal) story based on an ancient cosmology that supposed a flat earth resting on the shell of a great turtle. When the cosmologist was asked on what the turtle rested, he gave the legendary answer: "It's turtles all the way down."


I love that quote!!! I use that phrase a lot much to the puzzlement of some of my listeners... but I say "turtles all the way baby!"

wryly
August 23rd 2003, 12:44 AM
Re. your comment:

"When your aim is to justify, your assumptions will remain transparent; if they are in error, they will remain so. If your aim is to eliminate error, your assumptions must be examined. Examining your assumptions does not automatically result in error correction, but it makes it possible."

This fits with the idea that as long as I'm needing to defend/protect myself and my precious belief I'm effectively prevented from learning. What I haven't gotten my mind around yet is how the "offense" will necessarily promote learning. If what you're saying is a scandal/ offense to my sensibilities, the most natural thing for me to do is to "put up my dukes."

Wait, wait -- the offense provides the occasion for me to get beyond myself and risk for the sake of learning -- I choose light over safety.

So what might it look like if they hadn't begged the question?

Mikeb
August 25th 2003, 11:43 AM
Nice article.

I've always liked Popper, and if we were in a civilization building mode, I'd say he had something important to say about our world. Unfortunately, however, we are deep in the depths of Babel and the "Who am I to judge?" is usually preferable to the alternitive "Lock and Load."

automatthew
August 26th 2003, 02:06 PM
Thank you all for the kind comments.

Skyhog:

You've unearthed the obvious inspiration for the Purple Cow fable. I have a profound lack of interest in eschatology, so I tried avoid making the two sides in the fable match the preterist and futurist viewpoints too closely. The process is much more interesting than the topic, IMO. The cycle you describe is, all too often, exactly what happens in eschatological disagreements. It's a shame. I'm sure the futurists have better arguments, and I'd love to hear them. The fence I'm perched on grows uncomfortable.


Dee Dee:

Glad you liked it. The topic deserves a better treatment, and fortunately Karl Popper has written about thirty. I highly recommend Popper Selections to anyone interested in following up on these ideas. The book I leaned on in the article, The Myth of the Framework, is a collection of lectures and papers intended for a popular audience, but it may not be the best place to start with Popper. Students of philosophy and logic will find Conjectures and Refutations denser, but more flavorful.

"Turtles all the way down" is a great image. Yertle the Turtle comes to mind, though the moral is different.


wryly:



What I haven't gotten my mind around yet is how the "offense" will necessarily promote learning. If what you're saying is a scandal/ offense to my sensibilities, the most natural thing for me to do is to "put up my dukes."

Wait, wait -- the offense provides the occasion for me to get beyond myself and risk for the sake of learning -- I choose light over safety.


That's pretty close to what I was trying to suggest. Offense can, if given the opportunity, reveal our hidden assumptions. Popper mentions in the Myth essay Herodotus's account of an offense contrived by a Persian king:

Darius called into his presence certain Greeks [who burn their dead] and asked what he should pay them to eat the bodies of their fathers when they died. They answered that there was no sum that would tempt them to do such a thing. He then sent for certain Indians of the race called Callatians, men who eat their fathers, and asked them what he should give them to burn the bodies of their fathers at their decease. The Indians exclaimed aloud, and bade him forbear such language. [silent edits done to make it pithy]

I like this example, because it helps make clear another important point: Our hidden assumptions are not necessarily wrong just because they have been assumed (that would be a version of the genetic fallacy). They may be good assumptions, as I believe was the Greeks' assumption that eating your dead is wrong. But ask a Greek, pre-Darius, why eating Pop is bad form, and you're not likely to get an answer other than "Because it is. Obviously." Post-Darius, those Greeks had to come to terms with the fact that other men not only disagreed, but found the pyre as disgusting as the Greeks found the dinner-table. Just Because was no longer a sufficient answer.

wryly
August 26th 2003, 11:47 PM
I'm clearly in over my head, but savoring this exchange - enough that I followed the discussion back a thread or two - and found this Popper? quote by automattew:

"Disputants must be aware of their opponents' premises, or at least that the other side has differing premises. I'm not sure that the conflicting premises must be addressed before critical discussion is possible, if addressed means resolved. I don't think that the premises of disputing interpretations have to be axioms, pre-theoretical or presuppositional. Ideally each side recognizes the implicitly conjectural nature of its theory. "

I understand that we're talking "head stuff," yet it sure seems to me that the intent of the heart and will predestine the outcome of any conversation. I've experienced conversations with people who have worked very hard to be familiar with their opponents' premises - perhaps even understood them - but the interchange left me wondering if their interests were less concerned with seeking truth than promoting their own version(reduction) of it.

"The ideal that each side recognizes the implicitly conjectural nature of it's theory" is certainly that - an ideal. But even if there is some awareness of it, my overriding desire must be seeking the truth or I may succumb to a less Light-filled desire.

"Purity of heart is to will one thing." (the K-man)

automatthew
August 27th 2003, 11:01 AM
wryly said:



I understand that we're talking "head stuff," yet it sure seems to me that the intent of the heart and will predestine the outcome of any conversation.


The "intent of heart and will" usually does determine the outcome of discussion. Man is flawed. Popper recognized that we are flawed and did not believe we can be perfected, which plants him firmly in the classical liberal camp--what we now call the conservative. But while he saw men as flawed, he did not consider them hopeless. I would not label Popper as an agnostic or an atheist, but he always reasoned from non-theistic assumptions, sincerely and explicitly. Doing so, he had to presume that the search for truth could be valued by men on their own, without supernatural intervention. If this is so, then occasionally, perhaps very rarely, men can reason together with the intent of seeking truth, even at the expense of their own cherished ideas. Value truth more than your own fractured images of it, and you may draw closer.

A nice idea, but I don't buy it. Man has fallen from great height, not raised himself from the beasts.

So if the search for truth is not valued by men on their own--if having fallen, man has forsaken all that is good--then man, unaided, will not have any discourse that is guided by any intent other than victory. We cannot reason, because we will not seek truth.

But we do seek truth. I have seen others do it, and I think I might have done it a few times. Fallen men, turned away from God and with no intent of turning back, still value truth. Some may have conflated it with their own habits and opinions, but no man thinks his own assumptions are lies. I have no idea why this is. Or rather, I have no ideas worth sharing just yet.

Anyway, though the occurrences may be rare, men can reason together and seek truth above their own limited conceptions of it.




I've experienced conversations with people who have worked very hard to be familiar with their opponents' premises - perhaps even understood them - but the interchange left me wondering if their interests were less concerned with seeking truth than promoting their own version . . . of it.


Two answers:

A) Sure they were. They wanted to win, so they found out all they could about their opponents views so as to better fight them. Know your enemy, and all that.

OR

B) Sure they were. They understood the precious value of bold ideas and were not going to abandon them at the first sign of opposition. Why bother arguing if you don't think you are right? The object of discourse, says Popper, cannot be to gain universal agreement. When universal agreement is the outcome of a discussion, caveat emptor!




"The ideal that each side recognizes the implicitly conjectural nature of it's theory" is certainly that - an ideal. But even if there is some awareness of it, my overriding desire must be seeking the truth or I may succumb to a less Light-filled desire.


No argument with that.

omega sequence
September 3rd 2003, 03:10 PM
Thanks Yog,

This was an interesting article which has only fueled some questions that have been circling in my mind...




The Infinite Slope

Knowledge is a tricky thing. Or a tricky concept, or expectation. A trick of memory? We don't really know what knowledge is, though there's a whole school of philosophy devoted to it with a fancy Greek name. We can't even talk about knowing what knowledge is without slipping into a circles: How do we know what we know? How do we know that we actually know what we know? Can we know whether we actually know what we think we know? When you're sure that what you know is knowable and you know what it means to know it, the rest of us begin to suspect that whatever it is you think you know, you don't. How many times can I use the word "know" before it starts looking foreign and uncouth? I'm having trouble with "know" now, and "now" begins to look odd itself by association. Knowledge can suffer from too much handling....


So what happens to epistemology when knowledge condescends and comes to your door for tea? Where does the second person of the trinity (Logos) fit into Christian epistemology? This is something that has been gnawing at me for a bit, but I have not been able to make much of a start to it.

Has anyone wondered about this, or seen some material on it?


Thanks,

automatthew
September 3rd 2003, 05:59 PM
omega sequence said:



So what happens to epistemology when knowledge condescends and comes to your door for tea? Where does the second person of the trinity (Logos) fit into Christian epistemology?

One place to start would be the Philosophical Fragments of Johannes Climacus, made available to us by Søren Kierkegaard. Climacus considers the Greek and Christian answers to the question "How far does the Truth admit of being learned?" Or, How can one possibly come to know the truth without being taught? The Greek, or Socratian, answer is that we must somehow already know, but we have hidden the knowledge from ourselves. The Christian answer is that we must have a teacher.

A second thread of answer may start with another publication from Kierkegaard, The Sickness Unto Death, by Anti-Climacus. This religious/psychological study of dispair contains a notoriously obscure description of the nature of self:

"The self is a relation that relates itself to itself or is the relation's relating itself to itself in the relation; the self is not the relation but is the relation's relating itself to itself. A human being is a synthesis of the infinite and the finite, of the temporal and the eternal, of freedom and necessity, in short, a synthesis. A synthesis is a relation between two. Considered in this way a human being is still not a self.... In the relation between two, the relation is the third as a negative unity, and the two relate to the relation and in the relation to the relation; thus under the qualification of the psychical the relation between the psychical and the physical is a relation. If, however, the relation relates itself to itself, this relation is the positive third, and this is the self."

And then a third thread, one I am not yet very sure about: The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes. This book overreaches in its aim, but Jaynes's concept of the nature of consciousness is a bold and useful idea, and his elucidation of a possible origin for our current forms of consciousness may not be too far removed from some truth, even seen from a Christian perspective.

wryly
September 4th 2003, 12:12 AM
When TRUTH expresses creative thought and a universe comes into existence, TRUTH IS. The Expression of Truth which transforms Nothing into Something is TRUTH, too. So also that aspect/quality of TRUTH through which TRUTH resides/ resonates within those beings created to receive it -- that Aspect of TRUTH is TRUE as well. Sounds triune to me.

Dee Dee Warren
September 4th 2003, 04:34 AM
Hey Omega Sequence, I just wanted to clarify that automatthew wrote the above article... Yog is our Editor and articles are put up under his name as he is the moderator over this section.

adam.naranjo
September 6th 2003, 05:39 PM
Attomatt,

Perhaps I'm being offensive by mentioning this, but I have to. Towards the end of your article you mention the change in the meaning of the phrase 'begging the question'. You're quite right. However, earlier in the article you used the phrase improperly speaking of induction, "But this begs a very important question about the nature of observations. Observations are not neutral, as induction would suggest"

When one 'begs the question' they are assuming in there argument part of (or all of) that which they are attempting to prove. Induction begs the question because one cannot argue for the reliability of induction without assuming induction within their argumentation itself. This of course (as you noted in some way earlier) is circular. (the essence of begging the question).

However, there is an answer to the slippery slope -- of both induction and skepticism. Kant was on to it in his transcendental reasoning and Cornelius VanTil gave him his answer. The Triune God of scripture gives the preconditions for intelligibility and thereby the foundations for epistemic certainty. As you mentioned: in the end our axioms are held to by faith. However, one 'set of axioms', if you will, gives within itself the preconditions for the intelligibility of the inductive principle upon which all knowledge is based (not [only] inductive logic, but more primitively, inductive/causal principles at work in our most fundamental and 'automattic'* cognition). Thus giving it a foundation upon which it can be justified without going outside of itself and borrowing from another -- a self attesting transcendental. The God of the Bible also gives preconditions for the intelligibility of Laws of Logic, ethics, and belief in the uniformity of nature. Without him also reasoning about such things becomes uncertain and skepticism insures. So then unlike all other epistemic approaches, who cannot offer a completely coherent (not borrowing from another) and self-attesting (axiom which itself gives preconditions for the intelligibility) epistemology, the Christian can. (as long as there not Open Theists or non-Trinitarians -- that's another discussion though)

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying as the often used causal argument, "without God you don't have a basis for _______".
transcendental reasoning goes far beyond this. With God you don't have a the preconditions that without which reasoning about anything cannot be made intelligible. That may be somewhat vague, but I don't have a lot of time and I'm getting out of here. But, I reckon you know yourself some philosophy.

I like your point. However, your point was made at the end of your post. The beginning of your post sounds like a rant about your own philosophical erudition -- no offense.

*failing attempt at humor (atomatthew)



------
Adam

automatthew
September 9th 2003, 07:37 PM
Adam said:


However, earlier in the article you used the phrase improperly speaking of induction


No, I didn't, actually. I would not rail against an offense without being very careful not to commit it. You misunderstood my intent, perhaps because the construction of the phrase was similar to the form commonly abused by the ignorant. If so, my apologies. I may have been guilty of unclarity, but not of gross error.

While I originally said:



Thus induction suggests that observations are the sole foundation of knowledge. But this begs a very important question about the nature of observations. Observations are not neutral, as induction would suggest; they are not passive, happenstance recordings of bland fact. You observe what you are looking for, what you already in some way think is interesting or important.


I should, perhaps, have said:

Induction assumes that observation is the sole foundation of knowledge. This assumption begs a question in further assuming that observations are neutral, that they are passive, happenstance recordings of bland fact. They are not. Observation consists of seeing what you are looking for, what you already in some way think is interesting or important.


Adam also said:


Induction begs the question because one cannot argue for the reliability of induction without assuming induction within their argumentation itself.


Well . . . yes . . . but that doesn’t really tell us much. We could say the same thing about Cookie Logic, the system in which every statement that contains the word “cookie” is true. Thus the statement, “Cookie Logic is valid,” is true if you assume that Cookie Logic is true. To determine whether Cookie Logic is a valid method of reasoning, it is not sufficient to prove that one argument in its defense begs the question. If we really want to disprove Cookie Logic, we must find a contradiction, either in Cookie Logic itself, or in the juxtaposition of Cookie Logic and the rest of the world.

So: “Cookie Monster is a purple cow.”

By the principles of Cookie Logic, this statement must be true. Observation of Cookie Monster suggests that Cookie Monster is not purple and does not appear to be a cow (I should note that my usual test of cowness, the udder-check, is precluded by Sesame Street’s restrictive practice of above-the-belt cinematography). Cookie Logic has, alas, been proven to be an invalid criterion.

Induction fails to pass the same sort of test. Borrowing an example from Popper, if I have only ever seen white swans, then induction gives me every reason to believe that only white swans exist. If even one black swan exists, then induction has proved invalid as a method of reasoning. True input has produced false output.


Adam also said:


However, there is an answer to the slippery slope -- of both induction and skepticism. Kant was on to it in his transcendental reasoning and Cornelius VanTil gave him his answer. The Triune God of scripture gives the preconditions for intelligibility and thereby the foundations for epistemic certainty.


Let me first say that Van Tillian Presuppositionalism, at least as I understand it, is not incompatible with Popperian critical rationalism. This critical rationalism is exactly the epistemology-without-God that presuppositionalism supposes it to be. Certainty is not possible in this scheme, and without a deity to inform it, unrefuted conjectures are the best knowledge that can be had. So presuppositionalism may be considered a superset of critical rationalism: Without the Informing Word, we are left to build towers of bold guesses.

As to there being an answer to the infinite slope, well sure. I’ve got one, too. Are you ready? Here it is:

“I’m not falling! It’s true! Really, I’m not!”

I will be so vulgar as to quote myself again:



But how do we know the axioms are true? You are assuming, but why should I assume what you assume? And should you try to prove your axiom, to justify your claim, you will be jumping right back into an infinite regression. You are better off claiming axioms all the way down.


Presuppositionalists must assume a stack of axioms:
A) There is a God
B) We are His creations
C) Existence is unintelligible without assuming A and B

I agree completely with A and B, and I suspect C to be true, but they are all still unverifiable assumptions. So far as I can understand, Adam’s answer to the infinite slope is axiom C. Axiom C depends on assuming axioms A and B. Should I choose to assume A, B, and C, I have an irrefutable philosophy. Irrefutable philosophy is kissing cousins with internally-consistent dogmatism.

Furthermore, I can’t see how “epistemic certainty” would follow from assumptions A, B, and C. For the jargon-deprived, epistemic means about knowledge. “Epistemic certainty,” therefore, must be something akin to manifest truth: “It’s so obvious! Can’t you see? You must be blind if you can’t see how true it is.” I am willing to stipulate, for the moment, that there is (beyond the azure blue) a God, that the whole universe was His creation, and that the cosmos will not admit of understanding without the acceptance of Creator and creation. So . . . how exactly does this help me with the black swans?

I think Adam is suggesting that the Presup position (pun intendend) validates induction as a way of reasoning. I take this to be his explanation:


However, one 'set of axioms', if you will, gives within itself the preconditions for the intelligibility of the inductive principle upon which all knowledge is based (not [only] inductive logic, but more primitively, inductive/causal principles at work in our most fundamental and 'automattic'* cognition). Thus giving it a foundation upon which it can be justified without going outside of itself and borrowing from another -- a self attesting transcendental.


Pardon me, but did you suddenly start channeling the spirit of a German philosopher?
If someone can explain what that is supposed to mean--and do it in clear, simple language--I will attempt to answer it. Anything worth saying is worth saying clearly.




Adam finished with these words:


I like your point. However, your point was made at the end of your post. The beginning of your post sounds like a rant about your own philosophical erudition -- no offense.



Dear Everyone and Adam,

I really don’t know what to say. It seems clear that Adam was offering an offense, and yet he said he meant none. I am confused. I would like to take his offense, but I must confess that I don’t understand what it is he was saying. I don’t pretend to have any erudition. Sometimes, just to myself, I pretend that I can write like Chesterton. How am I doing with that so far? Anyway, I always thought that erudition meant using big words like “epistemology” and “self-attesting transcendental” and “erudition”. I must have been wrong. Please explain how I have been ranting about my own philosophical erudition.

Everyone’s friend,
Matthew

adam.naranjo
September 10th 2003, 06:14 AM
Well . . . yes . . . but that doesn’t really tell us much. We could say the same thing about Cookie Logic, the system in which every statement that contains the word “cookie” is true. Thus the statement, “Cookie Logic is valid,” is true if you assume that Cookie Logic is true. To determine whether Cookie Logic is a valid method of reasoning, it is not sufficient to prove that one argument in its defense begs the question. If we really want to disprove Cookie Logic, we must find a contradiction, either in Cookie Logic itself, or in the juxtaposition of Cookie Logic and the rest of the world.

So: “Cookie Monster is a purple cow.”

By the principles of Cookie Logic, this statement must be true. Observation of Cookie Monster suggests that Cookie Monster is not purple and does not appear to be a cow (I should note that my usual test of cowness, the udder-check, is precluded by Sesame Street’s restrictive practice of above-the-belt cinematography). Cookie Logic has, alas, been proven to be an invalid criterion.

Induction fails to pass the same sort of test. Borrowing an example from Popper, if I have only ever seen white swans, then induction gives me every reason to believe that only white swans exist. If even one black swan exists, then induction has proved invalid as a method of reasoning. True input has produced false output.

Wow, If you only knew -- there is more to it than that. Let me respond to this specific statment, "If even one black swan exists, then induction has proved invalid as a method of reasoning.". This argument against induction does not work -- if your trying to prove that induction is invalid --, because when one argues from the fact that they have "observed" a black swan they are in fact 'borrowing', or 'assuming' the use of induction in their reasoning of the arugment against it. This is why induction itself (the inductive prinicple) is what Kant called a transcendental -- a precondition for intelligibility. It cannot be defended or denied without assuming it in the first place, thus proving its certainty, or, proving its absolute necessity (for intelligibility in the case of a transcendental).

Thus the one who uses such an argument is assuming the validity of the very thing they are arguing against. But let me say that I agree with the fact that induction is not a valid theory of knowledge -- this, however, does not negate its validity as a way of gaining knowledge. As long as it is butressed by an epistemology that gives certainty and makes induction possible and justified. (the only epistemology that does this is Biblical epistemology)


Let me first say that Van Tillian Presuppositionalism, at least as I understand it, is not incompatible with Popperian critical rationalism. This critical rationalism is exactly the epistemology-without-God that presuppositionalism supposes it to be. Certainty is not possible in this scheme, and without a deity to inform it, unrefuted conjectures are the best knowledge that can be had. So presuppositionalism may be considered a superset of critical rationalism: Without the Informing Word, we are left to build towers of bold guesses.

No offense, but you don't know Presuppositionalism very well, if at all. Presuppositionalism does not propose to be an epistemology-without-God -- just the opposite. Presuppositionalism unlike critical rationalism holds that knowledge is certain and justified and that all knowledge is 'in Christ' (as scripture tells us). God himself gives the preconditions for intelligibilty and certainty thus answering the age old problem of knowledge. This is put VERY broadly -- perhaps only a specialist in Kantian transcendental reasoning would get it -- but I don't have time to get into it all.



Presuppositionalists must assume a stack of axioms:
A) There is a God
B) We are His creations
C) Existence is unintelligible without assuming A and B

I agree completely with A and B, and I suspect C to be true, but they are all still unverifiable assumptions. So far as I can understand, Adam’s answer to the infinite slope is axiom C. Axiom C depends on assuming axioms A and B. Should I choose to assume A, B, and C, I have an irrefutable philosophy. Irrefutable philosophy is kissing cousins with internally-consistent dogmatism.

Furthermore, I can’t see how “epistemic certainty” would follow from assumptions A, B, and C. For the jargon-deprived, epistemic means about knowledge. “Epistemic certainty,” therefore, must be something akin to manifest truth: “It’s so obvious! Can’t you see? You must be blind if you can’t see how true it is.” I am willing to stipulate, for the moment, that there is (beyond the azure blue) a God, that the whole universe was His creation, and that the cosmos will not admit of understanding without the acceptance of Creator and creation. So . . . how exactly does this help me with the black swans?

I think Adam is suggesting that the Presup position (pun intendend) validates induction as a way of reasoning. I take this to be his explanation:
“ However, one 'set of axioms', if you will, gives within itself the preconditions for the intelligibility of the inductive principle upon which all knowledge is based (not [only] inductive logic, but more primitively, inductive/causal principles at work in our most fundamental and 'automattic'* cognition). Thus giving it a foundation upon which it can be justified without going outside of itself and borrowing from another -- a self attesting transcendental. ”

Pardon me, but did you suddenly start channeling the spirit of a German philosopher?
If someone can explain what that is supposed to mean--and do it in clear, simple language--I will attempt to answer it. Anything worth saying is worth saying clearly.

haha, I was trying to sum up a lot so I used highly specified language.
I strongly suggest reading Greg L. Bahnsen's (Ph.D)"Van Till's Apologetic" (http://www.cmfnow.com/product.asp?0=339&1=340&3=8837) and listening to any or all of the following:
Transcendental Arguments (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=391&2=-1) 10 Lectures from bahnsen
Religious Epistemology - Michael Buttler Ph.D (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=423&1=425&2=-1) 11 lectures
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? Stein VS Bahnsen (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=234&2=-1)
Does God Exist? A Debate - Tabash VS Bahnsen (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=369&2=-1)
The Debate That Never Was - Michael Martin VS Bahnsen (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=382&2=-1) (Michael Martin never showed up so Bahnesn Lectured)
Seminary Course in Apologetics (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=361&2=-1) 30 Lectures (graduate level)
Challenge to Unbelief (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=449&2=-1) - A short critique of unbelief and the CERTAINTY of the Christian faith
Mid-Level Course in Apologetics (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=459&2=-1) 18 Lectures
Van Til's Presuppositional Apologetic (http://www.cmfnow.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=453&2=-1) 9 Lectures

Or Read for free:
Science, Subjectivity And Scripture - Bahnsen (http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa044.htm)
Or visit THIS PAGE (http://www.cmfnow.com/page.asp?id=8) for many more articles from Bahnsen -- including chapters from his book, "Always ready"

Presuppositionalists assume more than that, and so do you, and so does EVERY PERSON. And nothing in our experience is intelligible without these assumptions. And therefore - due to the impossibility of contrary (specifically that God, alone, in himself gives the preconditions for intelligibility) these axioms must be true. If not, you are reduced to scepticism and absurdity in all your reasoning. This is putting it very spimply.
------
Adam

automatthew
September 20th 2003, 05:44 PM
Hi Adam,

Thanks for the quick response, and I’m sorry I haven’t responded quickly myself. I have little time this morning, so I’ll be uncharacteristically brief. [24 hours later: yeah . . . I thought this would be brief. Who was I kidding?]

I’ve found that some of the things I previously said were unclear. When I rephrase one of them, I’ll use this color.

You said:


[W]hen one argues from the fact that they have "observed" a black swan they are in fact 'borrowing', or 'assuming' the use of induction in their reasoning of the arugment against it.



I read this as claiming that the very act of observation requires inductive reasoning. That is a novel proposition, not at all the mainstream view.

Paraphrase of Hume (’cause I can’t find the quote just now) from http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/Philosophy/humeargument.htm
We do not observe causal relations. Rather, we infer them from our observations, and this inference is an inductive one.

Mill’s definition: Induction always involves inference from the known to the unknown, from facts observed to facts unobserved.

Since this claim goes against the general understanding of induction, the burden is on you to explain what you mean.


--------
--------


You also said:


No offense, but you don't know Presuppositionalism very well, if at all. Presuppositionalism does not propose to be an epistemology-without-God -- just the opposite.


You haven’t caught my point. I’ll cry mea culpa on this one though; my statement, while grammatically correct, was not terribly clear.

I originally said:


Let me first say that Van Tillian Presuppositionalism, at least as I understand it, is not incompatible with Popperian critical rationalism. This critical rationalism is exactly the epistemology-without-God that presuppositionalism supposes it to be. Certainty is not possible in this scheme, and without a deity to inform it, unrefuted conjectures are the best knowledge that can be had. So presuppositionalism may be considered a superset of critical rationalism: Without the Informing Word, we are left to build towers of bold guesses.



What I meant is better expressed by this:

Presuppositionalism and Popper’s Critical Rationalism are not mutually incompatible. Critical Rationalism is exactly the kind of system of knowledge that Presuppositionalists expect a Godless epistomology would have to be: Certainty is not possible in Critical Rationalism. Without the assumption of a deity behind it all, unrefuted conjectures are the best knowledge that can be had. So Critical Rationalism may be considered a subset of Presuppositionalism: Without the Informing Word to root us, we are left to build towers of bold guesses on foundations of sand.


--------
--------


You also said, in response to my listing of a few axioms needed by Presuppositionalism:


Presuppositionalists assume more than that, and so do you, and so does EVERY PERSON.



Adam, you’re a Brown-Adder. That’s a term I just made up, so I’ll explain:

Does everyone know the children’s song: “Jesus Loves the Little Children”? When I was growing up, the words went like this:

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Red and yellow, black and white
They are precious in his sight.
Jesus loves the little children of the world.

The last time I heard this song sung, some turkey had changed the words:

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Red, brown, yellow, black, and white . . .


Was that really necessary? Jesus loves all the children of the world. I always felt justified in assuming that “all” included . . . well, all the different colors. But the itchy literalists couldn’t stand it, so they added brown.

Back to Adam’s statement: What pillar of my position do you think you’re demolishing by insisting that you assume more than three things? While you lecture on the universality of multiplex assumptions, you miss the point entirely. If you remember to stop and smell the argument, you might find the camels instead of the gnats.

The camel can be restated like this:

So far as I can understand, Adam’s answer to the problem of infinite regression is an axiom that requires at minimum two further axioms to form a usable framework.


From your last post, it appears that I was almost right. Here is a revised version of what I understand you to be claiming:

“The problem of infinite regression is a misdirection. There is nothing wrong with starting from an axiom so long as that axiom makes the rest of the universe intelligible. In other words, you can legitimately start from an assumption if the results can be shown to be true. In fact, if an assumption produces valid results, then the assumption itself must be true. Thus if my axiom is true, then the chain of infinite regression has been broken, and there is no problem.”

I do not agree with this reasoning. I can best explain my dissent by making this counter-offer:

There is nothing wrong with starting from an unjustifiable assumption so long as the implications of that assumption seem to match reality and are interesting and testable. In other words, you can legitimately argue on behalf of an assumption if its implications and predictions have withstood criticism and severe testing without any of them being refuted. In fact, until an assumption or its consequences have been proven false, you may behave as if the assumption were known to be true.


--------
--------


You also said this:


If [it is not true that God alone provides the conditions for intelligibility], you are reduced to scepticism and absurdity in all your reasoning.


I completely agree that a system of knowledge not rooted in God will be one of skepticism, or Critical Rationalism.

So add God, add Creation, add the presupposition that reality is unintelligible without God. What do you have now? Is all truth now manifest? Uncertainty banished? Can you comprehend the expanse of the earth or discern the paths to the home of darkness? Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, and can you number the clouds by wisdom?

I don’t know what your answer is, but I can give you mine: I do assume God. I do assume Creation. I’ll even stipulate for the sake of argument that humans can only begin to plumb the cosmos by assuming God. What I get out of all these assumptions is the barest, faintest hint of the vast scope of my ignorance and due skepticism toward those who don’t have any inkling of their own. True skepticism is rooted in God and born of humility.

I say that Presuppositionalism can be considered a superset of Critical Rationalism because I don’t believe that assuming a deus produces a machina. A God-centered science will not mechanistically achieve certain knowledge. Trial & error and conjecture & refutation are the only tools we have to approximate truth (excepting direct revelation, which, as the Gatekeeper says, is a horse of a different color).

Vorkosigan
October 5th 2003, 09:22 AM
Relativism spares us the trouble of taking our beliefs seriously.

<sigh> I sure wish people who talk so glibly about relativism would actually go out and study it sometime. Relativism does not mean anything like this at all. Rather, it means not only taking one's own beliefs so seriously that one can change them when evidence accumulates that one's moral beliefs are wrong, but also, taking the beliefs of others seriously as well.

And of course, let's not forget, the price of absolutism is of course, the bloody record that authoritarianisms of Islamic, Christian, Communist, Nationalist, and Facist bent have established over the years. Relativism may not easily take offense. That is why we relativists live in peace with our neighbors, instead of putting them to the sword when they don't agree with us. Absolutism means that except for the narrow range of values one has arbitrarily adopted as "absolute," all other values are "offenses." Why do you think they find it so difficult to live with others?

Vorkosigan