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Jesus & The Psychiatrists

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  • Jesus & The Psychiatrists

    I finished reading a short paper by David Instone Brewer on his experience with psychiatric patients in which he came to believe were possessed by demons and/or unclean spirits.

    I am interested in a skeptical perspective as to the contents of this paper specifically in relation to the voices which seemingly answered specific silent questions. This experience gradually convinced Dr. Brewer that he was not dealing with a purely psychiatric disorder.

    How would you explain these cases?

    http://www.academia.edu/1329712/Jesu..._Psychiatrists

  • #2
    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    I finished reading a short paper by David Instone Brewer on his experience with psychiatric patients in which he came to believe were possessed by demons and/or unclean spirits.

    I am interested in a skeptical perspective as to the contents of this paper specifically in relation to the voices which seemingly answered specific silent questions. This experience gradually convinced Dr. Brewer that he was not dealing with a purely psychiatric disorder.

    How would you explain these cases?

    http://www.academia.edu/1329712/Jesu..._Psychiatrists
    Well David Instone Brewer is not a psychiatrist and he himself says in your link that most qualified psychiatrists do not accept the reality of demons or exorcism. They would regard the exorcisms of Jesus as old-world descriptions of psychiatric problems. I think this is the most likely explanation, given that the existence of demons and spirits was a commonly accepted phenomenon in that era, and that psychiatric theory was unknown.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      Well David Instone Brewer is not a psychiatrist and he himself says in your link that most qualified psychiatrists do not accept the reality of demons or exorcism. They would regard the exorcisms of Jesus as old-world descriptions of psychiatric problems. I think this is the most likely explanation, given that the existence of demons and spirits was a commonly accepted phenomenon in that era, and that psychiatric theory was unknown.
      Thanks for reading the article. So how do you explain the part where he is having silent conversations with these "voices", if you will, such as:

      "I sat in his room for a while thinking that he might wake up, and after a while I thought I might pray for him. I started to pray silently for him but I was immediately interrupted because he sat bolt upright, looked at me fiercely and said in a voice which was not characteristic of him: "Leave him alone - he belongs to us".

      "These voices answered specific silent questions such as What is your name?, When did you come? This gradually convinced me that I was not dealing with a purely psychiatric disorder. After such 'conversations', which often involved much shouting, rage and abuse from him, the person usually had no memory of any of these disturbing events"
      Last edited by Scrawly; 10-13-2015, 05:10 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
        I finished reading a short paper by David Instone Brewer on his experience with psychiatric patients in which he came to believe were possessed by demons and/or unclean spirits.

        I am interested in a skeptical perspective as to the contents of this paper specifically in relation to the voices which seemingly answered specific silent questions. This experience gradually convinced Dr. Brewer that he was not dealing with a purely psychiatric disorder.

        How would you explain these cases?

        http://www.academia.edu/1329712/Jesu..._Psychiatrists
        Just to approach this with Caution. I don't doubt that there is a case of possesion here or there. However, I am reluctant to jump on board with labeling every case someone sees of dissociation or "ataq de nerviosa" or even hysteria as "demonic" This person seems to have a strong to subtle misunderstanding of dissociation and this was a time (1996) when dissociation demonic posession and abuse were being witch hunted. Knowing that, I can't take a singular biased source as word, especially when I can't see the whole paper, the entire case review, the history, or what other kinds of treatment were sought out.
        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
        George Bernard Shaw

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm not quite as skeptical about this one as I normally would be. It's in the maybe basket.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Well David Instone Brewer is not a psychiatrist and he himself says in your link that most qualified psychiatrists do not accept the reality of demons or exorcism. They would regard the exorcisms of Jesus as old-world descriptions of psychiatric problems. I think this is the most likely explanation, given that the existence of demons and spirits was a commonly accepted phenomenon in that era, and that psychiatric theory was unknown.
            In the situation of Matthew 8 ...

            Do they explain the man's behavior?

            Do they diagnose the pigs with mass hysteria?

            Was there a cross influence between these two?

            How was the man cured so quickly?

            Are there treatment recommendations that psychiatrists glean from this situation?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Well David Instone Brewer is not a psychiatrist and he himself says in your link that most qualified psychiatrists do not accept the reality of demons or exorcism. They would regard the exorcisms of Jesus as old-world descriptions of psychiatric problems. I think this is the most likely explanation, given that the existence of demons and spirits was a commonly accepted phenomenon in that era, and that psychiatric theory was unknown.
              Sorry Tassman, I'm not trying to pick on you now. These are just some questions involved in verifying such a response you gave.

              Which people figured that demons and/or unclean spirits existed? For example, was it only the first century Jews (e.g. when considering the type of situation of possession shown in Matt 8)?

              Did such people distinguish demonic influence from mere mental health issues (or medical issues)?

              Do the Gospels and Acts show something like demonic possession as the only cause of mental or physical sickness ... or are only some instances declared thusly?

              So possibly did these people have some basis for saying someone was not just mentally ill but was possessed?

              Did those who cast out demons (i.e., before Jesus ) have success so as to sustain their role?

              One problem among modern interpreters of such events in the past is that we can often imagine the people of 2k years ago as being unable to think as clearly as we do. We may assume paradigms for their thought processes (or interpretive frameworks) which may not be accurate.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                Thanks for reading the article. So how do you explain the part where he is having silent conversations with these "voices", if you will, such as:

                "I sat in his room for a while thinking that he might wake up, and after a while I thought I might pray for him. I started to pray silently for him but I was immediately interrupted because he sat bolt upright, looked at me fiercely and said in a voice which was not characteristic of him: "Leave him alone - he belongs to us".

                "These voices answered specific silent questions such as What is your name?, When did you come? This gradually convinced me that I was not dealing with a purely psychiatric disorder. After such 'conversations', which often involved much shouting, rage and abuse from him, the person usually had no memory of any of these disturbing events"
                I would say that there's a probable natural explanation for any of the various examples that can be quoted. Gullible people or those with religious presuppositions or mental disorders or a mixture of any of these qualities may be convinced, but there's never been any scientific verified evidence to support them. Merely anecdotal stories!

                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                Sorry Tassman, I'm not trying to pick on you now. These are just some questions involved in verifying such a response you gave.

                Which people figured that demons and/or unclean spirits existed? For example, was it only the first century Jews (e.g. when considering the type of situation of possession shown in Matt 8)?

                Did such people distinguish demonic influence from mere mental health issues (or medical issues)?

                Do the Gospels and Acts show something like demonic possession as the only cause of mental or physical sickness ... or are only some instances declared thusly?

                So possibly did these people have some basis for saying someone was not just mentally ill but was possessed?

                Did those who cast out demons (i.e., before Jesus ) have success so as to sustain their role?

                One problem among modern interpreters of such events in the past is that we can often imagine the people of 2k years ago as being unable to think as clearly as we do. We may assume paradigms for their thought processes (or interpretive frameworks) which may not be accurate.
                Very likely people of 2,000 years ago thought perfectly clearly, but that's not the point. They lived in a more credulous era before psychiatric theory was understood and when the perceived threats which demons were thought to pose were a part of everyday life…they were a commonplace part of the Greek and Roman world.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  I would say that there's a probable natural explanation for any of the various examples that can be quoted. Gullible people or those with religious presuppositions or mental disorders or a mixture of any of these qualities may be convinced, but there's never been any scientific verified evidence to support them. Merely anecdotal stories!
                  So assuming Mr. Brewer wasn't lying, and accurately recalling his experiences with psychiatric patients, can you list a "probable, natural explanation" to explain how the voices emanating from the patients were answering questions silently posed to them?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    So assuming Mr. Brewer wasn't lying, and accurately recalling his experiences with psychiatric patients, can you list a "probable, natural explanation" to explain how the voices emanating from the patients were answering questions silently posed to them?
                    No, but there's never been any scientifically verified evidence to support anecdotal stories like this, nor is there good reason to suppose the existence of demonic spirits in the first place. Hence, an as yet unknown natural explanation is more probable than resorting to a demonic explanation.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                      Just to approach this with Caution. I don't doubt that there is a case of possesion here or there. However, I am reluctant to jump on board with labeling every case someone sees of dissociation or "ataq de nerviosa" or even hysteria as "demonic" This person seems to have a strong to subtle misunderstanding of dissociation and this was a time (1996) when dissociation demonic posession and abuse were being witch hunted. Knowing that, I can't take a singular biased source as word, especially when I can't see the whole paper, the entire case review, the history, or what other kinds of treatment were sought out.
                      Thanks for your healthy skepticism, Cath.

                      Comment

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