What is Mankind's greatest problem (or need)?

[OneFollowingHim]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

(If this has been discussed previously, then point us to that place.)

[anthrogirl]

I am inclined to say that benevolence, or humaneness is our greatest need.

ag

[lilpixieofterror]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

(If this has been discussed previously, then point us to that place.)

Depends on the person really.

Crystal

[kristov]

"Om"

[Justin Thyme]

I believe man's greatest need (as in desire) is that there be a "bigger picture" or hope. Even for those that are prosperous in this world have a need to believe that there is something after the mortal life.....a reason to go through daily trials and tribulations.

Because of this, I firmly believe that it if it were somehow possible to "prove" the non-existence of God, there would still be "religion".

As for greatest need as in problem, I'd probably say "understanding". This means everything from tolerance toward other races and religions, as well as trying to see any given issue from all sides (your side, my side, and an impartial side).

[OneFollowingHim]

I am inclined to say that benevolence, or humaneness is our greatest need.

ag

What does benevolence or humaneness mean? Do you mean being treated nicely or treating others nicely? Why are these most important? What about the ones who don't exhibit these traits? What's behind that?

[OneFollowingHim]

Depends on the person really.

Crystal

It depends on the person? That sounds like relativism. Is there no real answer to the question? If you're right, if that's true, that everyone has their own opinion of what plagues mankind, there's no objective meaning to life.

[familyof6]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

(If this has been discussed previously, then point us to that place.)

Well, besides all the obvious things, (air, water, shelter, food) I would say that mankind could stand to have a big fat dose of personal responsibility. Also, I think education is very important. That's just my 2 cents...

[OneFollowingHim]

I believe man's greatest need (as in desire) is that there be a "bigger picture" or hope. Even for those that are prosperous in this world have a need to believe that there is something after the mortal life.....a reason to go through daily trials and tribulations.

Because of this, I firmly believe that it if it were somehow possible to "prove" the non-existence of God, there would still be "religion".

As for greatest need as in problem, I'd probably say "understanding". This means everything from tolerance toward other races and religions, as well as trying to see any given issue from all sides (your side, my side, and an impartial side).

If mankind's greatest need is "hope", that implies despair. Where does despair come from? Are we lost about something? Is there something about mankind that manifests hopelessness? What is that?

[anthrogirl]

What does benevolence or humaneness mean? Do you mean being treated nicely or treating others nicely? Why are these most important? What about the ones who don't exhibit these traits? What's behind that?


I think that the person (or organization) who exhibits human-heartedness is able to put others at ease. Rather than saying, "What can I get from you?", they would say "How can I accomodate you?". In public life, it prompts "untiring diligence". In private life, it induces courtesy, unselfishness, and empathy. As Huston Smith says, "it knows no national boundries for it understands that 'within the four seas, all men are brothers'".

As for those who don't exhibit human-heartedness--that's a very big question. To put it simply, benevolence doesn't flow through the dominant ideology. We live in an expanding culture that tends to view relationships as transactions. In order to make a "successful" transaction, we don't always employ benevolence. Secondly, to live in a human-hearted way, one will naturally give up some of their individualism. Individualism is supremely important in our culture--and so it becomes a question of values. And finally, there are innumerable reasons that a person could reject exhibiting benevolence--our behaviors tend to be informed by our experiences; and an individual will tend to act based on how they experience and perceive the world. In short, a person who has not experienced or perceived humaneness in their lives might not exhibit benevolence.

does that make sense?

ag

[shunyadragon]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

(If this has been discussed previously, then point us to that place.)

The biggest human problem is the unwillingness to venture beyond their own box and embrace the reality of the vasteness of human potential and the nature of existence in time and space. Fear like the elephant tethered by the thread is all that holds them back.

[OneFollowingHim]

The biggest human problem is the unwillingness to venture beyond their own box and embrace the reality of the vasteness of human potential and the nature of existence in time and space. Fear like the elephant tethered by the thread is all that holds them back.

Is there any limit to "the vasteness of human potential"? That sounds very much like mankind has a divine nature. Are you saying mankind is limited to time and space only by our own intellectual boundaries?

[Storico]

What do humans need most?

My vote's with 'various degrees of understanding'. Before compassion and love and benevolence can even enter the picture, before we can reach out a hand to help anyone at all, we first have to understand. It can be as simple as saying "I understand there is a problem and now I can meet it and help fix it" or it can mean "I want to understand a person" or "I want to be understood".

The need for recognition and understanding is the biggest I can think of in human society. From the time we're born, we cry for it!

[shadowman]

either god or satan or human beigs have created a world of pure confusion and illusion. and if we dont make the right choice we might be screwed over forever. and if we make another choice that seems right we may be just following satan

and if god and satan are not real, it seems a ton of problems could be solved if we did away with all religion! or looked at it as an ancient way of a

a: explaining the unkown

b: hepling people in society have a common beleif and sense of identity

oh and if we follow a religion and it turns out that we just die, or that we were wrong.

well we waisted a whole life when we could be revelling in the wonders and beauty and hope inherent in humanity itself.. instead of seeing "lost souls" everywhere

[Storico]

and if god and satan are not real, it seems a ton of problems could be solved if we did away with all religion! or looked at it as an ancient way of a

a: explaining the unkown

b: hepling people in society have a common beleif and sense of identity

oh and if we follow a religion and it turns out that we just die, or that we were wrong.

well we waisted a whole life when we could be revelling in the wonders and beauty and hope inherent in humanity itself.. instead of seeing "lost souls" everywhere

I know what you're saying. I used to think that if God didn't exist, it would help a great deal to either dismiss it as ancient myth or to be rid of it altogether. But now, I'm not so convinced. I can't help but be a little more optimistic. Although we don't know that God exists (I certainly have zero proof, personal revelation, or what-have-you), I'm not entirely sure that people who DO believe have wasted their life at all. We all have interests and obsessions. For those who find wonder, beauty and hope inherent in the idea of "God", I can't fault them. At least people embrace wonder, hope and beauty in the first place. If that's their cup of tea, fine. And if people ever choose to see "lost souls" everywhere (and not all "spiritual people" do), that's also their choice. Seeing positive potential in others and finding wonder, beauty and hope in a good portion of humanity itself, sans deity, is mine. :smile:

[Sarek]

Blind Faith wherever it may be in a country, religion, a person or whatever. Ultimately blind faith brings out humanities worst. Not knowing, following something without the process of reason is mankind's biggest problem. It leads to things like Evangelicals, Militant atheists, Christian/Islamic Terrorist groups, Nazis and more.

[zorathruster]

Overpopulation!

[Nature]

Population growth in numbers:

Year - World population
1000 - 0.3 billion
1900 - 1.6 billion
2008 - 6.7 billion
2050 - 8.9 billion (predicted)

[shunyadragon]

Is there any limit to "the vasteness of human potential"? That sounds very much like mankind has a divine nature. Are you saying mankind is limited to time and space only by our own intellectual boundaries?

I believe humans have a Divine nature, but I also believe this true whether they have a Divine nature or not. Time and space boundaries may or may not be limited. Our main limitation are our own limitations we put on ourselves not go beyond our paradyme.

[straggler]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

(If this has been discussed previously, then point us to that place.)

The greatest need is believing in a God that is benevolent and who sets the right example. As long as folks believe God, for example, hates homosexuals, condonesor even orders killing/terrorist activities, or endorses being dishonest to "infidels" we'll get those kinds of actions. And it will be touted as moral by those adherents. It appears that humans are, in general, going to believe in God or gods. But often they believe in a God that they think gives them the right/responsibility to act in a way that is harmful to others, whether by physical assault, cheating/stealing, or by unkind words. If this would stop, I think the world would be a better place.

[UrbanMonk]

A human's greatest need is to realize/understand and accept what Jesus understood and accepted about his Self. This is the way the Son of Go(o)d is saved from his humanity.

[Thersites]

Mankind's greatest problem? I'd say it's people who post in threads without checking the date of the last post.

[OtherCheek]

Mankind's greatest problem? I'd say it's people who post in threads without checking the date of the last post.

Greatest Problem: humanism and materialism

Greatest Need: Faith.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Greatest problem: Sin.

[UrbanMonk]

Greatest problem: Sin.

Actually, man's greatest need is validation. Sin validates man, and so man need's it most. And yet, paradoxically, sin is man's greatest problem inasmuch as man is man's greatest problem. Sin is not a problem for Christ. If man was Christ, he would have no problems. But of course, man denies he is Christ. Man needs to deny he is Christ...otherwise he could not be a man anymore. Kind of a Catch-22. Man needs to deny he is a man if he would have no problems. But that would spell the end of man. Hmmm...

[Pilgrim]

I'd say that the biggest problem is sin defined most specifically as self centered-ness.

[UrbanMonk]

I'd say that the biggest problem is sin defined most specifically as self centered-ness.

I would adjust that to mean man-centeredness. Christ is our Self. Man is centered on another kind of self. This is the kind of selfishness that is problematic, not the "know thy Self" brand of Self-ishness.

Urban Monk

[Bernie]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

(If this has been discussed previously, then point us to that place.)
I think the greatest universal need of every human is to be retrofitted to a purely true or perfect state. All goods follow naturally from what is true. When all is true, all will be very good...or, from a fundamentalist Christian perspective, all will again be very good (Gen 1:31).

[Zombie]

Well, ill go the Buddhist route and say we need more awareness.

[Bernie]

Well, ill go the Buddhist route and say we need more awareness.
Awareness is a good. Perfect awareness is an ultimate good. This meshes in principle with the most perfect Christian soteriology known to mankind, Rational Esotericism. Muy bueno.

[Kane]

Man's greatest problem is man.

[Zguy28]

Man's greatest need is grace.

[Tanakh Keeper]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

I'd say our greatest need is for people to emulate G-d's attributes of charity, mercy, and justice. We each need to do our part to repair the world and convert it from what-it-is to what-it-should-be.

[shunyadragon]

I believe humans have a Divine nature, but I also believe this true whether they have a Divine nature or not. Time and space boundaries may or may not be limited. Our main limitation are our own limitations we put on ourselves not [to] go beyond our paradyme.

A correction above and I thought I would add a little something.

Humanity is a house divided against itself and at war with our differences. Humanity needs a greater sense of unity and purpose.

[OneFollowingHim]

A correction above and I thought I would add a little something.

Humanity is a house divided against itself and at war with our differences. Humanity needs a greater sense of unity and purpose.

We won't be divided when the New World Order is fully implemented. Then all will be well. There'll be peace at last. As the song goes,


I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it in my arms
And keep it company
(That's the song I hear)
I'd like to see the world for once
(Let the world sing today)
All standing hand in hand
And hear them echo through the hills
For peace throughout the land
That's the song I hear
(That's the song I hear)
Let the world sing today
(Let the whole wide world keep singing)
A song of peace that echoes on
And never goes away

[Tanakh Keeper]

We won't be divided when the New World Order is fully implemented. Then all will be well. There'll be peace at last. As the song goes,

If our greatest need is a New World Order, then what does each person need to do to implement it?

[shunyadragon]

We won't be divided when the New World Order is fully implemented. Then all will be well. There'll be peace at last. As the song goes,

This is a little naive and altruistic for whatever reality lies in the future. Over the centuries there has been one dynamic constantly changing world order. Old ways do eventually pass away, and new ones come into being, but there is no reason to think at any time in the future 'all will be well.'

[OneFollowingHim]

If our greatest need is a New World Order, then what does each person need to do to implement it?

That was sarchasm. I'm a follower of Jesus (see my screen name). That is the point of this thread. Sin is man's greatest problem and Jesus is man's greatest need. For He, and He alone, corrected the wrong.


This is a little naive and altruistic for whatever reality lies in the future. Over the centuries there has been one dynamic constantly changing world order. Old ways do eventually pass away, and new ones come into being, but there's no reason to think at any time in the future all will be well.

From an earthly perspective, you're right. For those who do not obey the Son, there's no reason to think at any time in the future all will be well. But biblically there's plenty of reason to think there's a time in the future when all be well for those who believe in the Son. See John 3:36.

[Tanakh Keeper]

That was sarchasm. I'm a follower of Jesus (see my screen name). That is the point of this thread. Sin is man's greatest problem and Jesus is man's greatest need. For He, and He alone, corrected the wrong.

No, it was a question. The only time I've heard the term "New World Order" is when someone is taking about the United Nations. I've never heard it apply to Christianity before.

Also, you are wrong that this thread is about the Christian deity. Here is the OP:


This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what? I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

Your OP states that this isn't about Christian theology. You are asking for ANYONE's ideas.

[bling]

For God’s “Love” to far surpass all human’s Love (we can compare it to the greatest human loves we know), so it would have to be: selfless, not just emotion it would be a conscious decision (God chooses to Love in spite of other’s actions), unconditional, extended to those that are not deserving, sacrificial, always serving others over self, greater than any love a mother would have for her baby, controlling all other attributes of God, compelling God to do all that He does, and be the most power force in all universe since it would control even God and would be a fitting description of God.
If God is this all Loving being than that “Love” would compel Him to create beings that could Love like He Loves. The problem is it could not be preprogrammed (instinctive) into the being or that would be a robotic type of love and it cannot be forced on the being (Love or be tortured) for that would be unloving on God’s part for the individual and would not be “Love” in the individual. It has to be given and accepted as a free undeserving and unconditional gift, but humans do not like to accept “charity” especially if the Giver of the gift has to make a sacrifice to give.
The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is through accepting God’s forgiveness, since all mature adults have done things that hurt others (sin) and accumulate a burden from these transgressions (conscience [on their heart]). All mature adults seek relieve from this burden, with the only true relieve coming from their creator. They can at some point choose to trust (faith) in the existence of a loving (forgiving) creator and humble themselves enough to accept His forgiveness or they can go on not believe in such a loving creator and seek other options including false religions and/or believes.

[OneFollowingHim]

No, it was a question. The only time I've heard the term "New World Order" is when someone is taking about the United Nations. I've never heard it apply to Christianity before..

Sorry. I attributed your question to the wrong person. Your question was in response to my sarchasm. I don't think the New World Order will solve man's biggest problem.


Also, you are wrong that this thread is about the Christian deity. Here is the OP:



Your OP states that this isn't about Christian theology. You are asking for ANYONE's ideas.

Yes. But I said the point of this thread is sin (man's greatest problem) and redemption (man's greatest need). Doesn't Judiasm teach this? How does man solve his greatest problem? Without God there's only man left to solve his problem. It's not possible is the point. Read the answers here. They all require mutual consent among everyone. Do you believe this is possible?

[Rushing Jaws]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

(If this has been discussed previously, then point us to that place.)## Man's greatest problem is consciousness.

Perfect happiness = complete oblivion.

Consciousness makes desire, suffering, experience, morality, belief, fear, & evil into actualities - take away consciousness, and you take away all evils, of body and soul. Unhappiness is possible only because of unconsciousness. Since we are conscious, we need salvation from consciousness. Therefore, we need a materialist philosophy, with no gods to cause trouble. Salvation therefore lies in the teaching of Epicurus.

Epicurus, like Democritus, teaches that all things are made of atoms. The soul is as material as the body, though made of more rarefied atoms. Death is the separation of the two, and the extinction of body and soul. This takes away fear of evil after death. Everything will perish in the end, because nothing composite - such as whatever is made of atoms, which is everything - can last for ever. So if there are gods, they too will perish (Epicurus' own doctrine is bit different on this point).

A lot of religious people are probably Epicureans without being aware of it.

[InLightofThis]

## Man's greatest problem is consciousness.

Perfect happiness = complete oblivion.

Good evening,

Unfortunately, it seems that in a state of complete oblivion we would be unable to experience happiness, or anything else for that matter. In order to experience something, it seems to me that you must have some degree of consciousness.


Regards,

~ILOT

[Rushing Jaws]

For God’s “Love” to far surpass all human’s Love (we can compare it to the greatest human loves we know), so it would have to be: selfless, not just emotion it would be a conscious decision (God chooses to Love in spite of other’s actions), unconditional, extended to those that are not deserving, sacrificial, always serving others over self, greater than any love a mother would have for her baby, controlling all other attributes of God, compelling God to do all that He does, and be the most power force in all universe since it would control even God and would be a fitting description of God.
If God is this all Loving being than that “Love” would compel Him to create beings that could Love like He Loves. The problem is it could not be preprogrammed (instinctive) into the being or that would be a robotic type of love and it cannot be forced on the being (Love or be tortured) for that would be unloving on God’s part for the individual and would not be “Love” in the individual. It has to be given and accepted as a free undeserving and unconditional gift, but humans do not like to accept “charity” especially if the Giver of the gift has to make a sacrifice to give.
The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is through accepting God’s forgiveness, since all mature adults have done things that hurt others (sin) and accumulate a burden from these transgressions (conscience [on their heart]). All mature adults seek relieve from this burden,
## A lot of them have no need for such relief


with the only true relieve coming from their creator. They can at some point choose to trust (faith) in the existence of a loving (forgiving) creator and humble themselves enough to accept His forgiveness or they can go on not believe in such a loving creator and seek other options including false religions and/or believes.## If God loves both Hitler and Hitler's victims, does that Love mean anything ? This is one of the problems with forgiveness - the Christian doctrine of forgiveness makes no distinction between the sinner and the sinned against. But that is immoral, deeply so.

What sort of Love is it that treats offender and offended alike ? God's Love is, in effect, meaningless - it has no effect in practice. God's love for Mao's 70 million victims did them no good whatever. And it let Mao, their slaughterer, die in bed, of old age. And yet the Letter of James has some harsh things to say to those who don't help their brethren whom they see in need. That being so, God is far more to blame, for He saw 70 millions in dire need - and did nothing. :sad: God is said to work miracles - they didn't get one. Yet He is said to be capable of working a string of miracles to save His own people from the Egyptians. Why can God help a few Israelites 3,000 years ago, but not 6 million Jews 60 years ago or 70 million Chinese even more recently ? If He cannot help now - can we really be sure He did then ?

"[L]oving creator" ? If only there some basis for believing that. Sorry, but Christian teaching is immoral or impossible or impractical or simply third-rate. People need something better, without being scared into going along with unsatisfactory ideas merely because of the allegedly divine status of the person they are attributed to. If Christian ethics are deficient - people should say so.

I don't suppose any of this will get an answer :sad:

[shunyadragon]

That was sarchasm. I'm a follower of Jesus (see my screen name). That is the point of this thread. Sin is man's greatest problem and Jesus is man's greatest need. For He, and He alone, corrected the wrong.

Sarcasm for what? The only time I see references to such an idealic world order are from some Christians who believe the Kingdom of god on earth is some surreal vision of resurrected Christians inheriting a Kingdom with streets paved with Gold and white robs and harps.

[Rushing Jaws]

Good evening,

Unfortunately, it seems that in a state of complete oblivion we would be unable to experience happiness, or anything else for that matter. In order to experience something, it seems to me that you must have some degree of consciousness.


Regards,

~ILOT## Complete oblivion would resolve the issue, by transcending it :tongue::smile:

[OneFollowingHim]

Perfect happiness = complete oblivion.

Without consciousness, how would you ever know you've achieved this happiness?

[OneFollowingHim]

Sarcasm for what? The only time I see references to such an idealic world order are from some Christians who believe the Kingdom of god on earth is some surreal vision of resurrected Christians inheriting a Kingdom with streets paved with Gold and white robs and harps.

Wow. I apologize. I didn't realize that people wouldn't see the sarchasm. I D-O N-O-T believe the NewWorld Order will solve man's greatest problem. You say "idealic". If you read the responses here, you won't find a single answer that doesn't take some form of "idealic" to solve the problem. The question is what's most realistic? Man taking care of it himself or God taking care of it? It's up to you to decide. You're completely free to accept or reject. Just remember there is a problem. Everyone with any sense agrees with that. The next thing becomes how is it resolved? Me? I'll go with God.

[Thersites]

## A lot of them have no need for such relief
## If God loves both Hitler and Hitler's victims, does that Love mean anything ? This is one of the problems with forgiveness - the Christian doctrine of forgiveness makes no distinction between the sinner and the sinned against. But that is immoral, deeply so.

What sort of Love is it that treats offender and offended alike ? God's Love is, in effect, meaningless - it has no effect in practice. God's love for Mao's 70 million victims did them no good whatever. And it let Mao, their slaughterer, die in bed, of old age. And yet the Letter of James has some harsh things to say to those who don't help their brethren whom they see in need. That being so, God is far more to blame, for He saw 70 millions in dire need - and did nothing. :sad: God is said to work miracles - they didn't get one. Yet He is said to be capable of working a string of miracles to save His own people from the Egyptians. Why can God help a few Israelites 3,000 years ago, but not 6 million Jews 60 years ago or 70 million Chinese even more recently ? If He cannot help now - can we really be sure He did then ?

"[L]oving creator" ? If only there some basis for believing that. Sorry, but Christian teaching is immoral or impossible or impractical or simply third-rate. People need something better, without being scared into going along with unsatisfactory ideas merely because of the allegedly divine status of the person they are attributed to. If Christian ethics are deficient - people should say so.

I don't suppose any of this will get an answer :sad:

The easiest answer is in the Crucifixion. Jesus forgave his murderers.

As for demanding God's help in temporal matters, it is not the temporal that we should care about, but the eternal. This world will not last forever; it is the next that should matter. The atrocity lies not in allowing people to do evil things, but in not allowing them the chance to repent. It is a bad thing when good people die, but depriving someone of their life on earth is far less consequential in the long run than depriving even the evil of the chance at eternal life. I seem to recall the a passage in the Bible that goes something like "don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but those who kill the soul".

I seem to recall responding to a post similar to this in another thread. I guess you didn't see it :shrug:

[Tanakh Keeper]

Yes. But I said the point of this thread is sin (man's greatest problem) and redemption (man's greatest need).

Again your OP doesn't say that. It says:

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what? I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

Sin is listed as just one item on YOUR list, not the only item. Plus redemption wasn't mentioned at all. I am finding your whole post to be deceptive now. If you were really looking for comments from other people, then you wouldn't be definetively stating that the first item on your list is the main point.


Doesn't Judiasm teach this?

I don't believe that you are interested what anyone else believes. If so, then my first comment here (post #33) has my belief of man's greatest need. You can respond to that.

[Zguy28]

Over the centuries there has been one dynamic constantly changing world order. Old ways do eventually pass away, and new ones come into being,'The old ways don't go away. The world system of power, money, pride, and covetousness remain for all generations.

[bling]

## A lot of them have no need for such relief
## If God loves both Hitler and Hitler's victims, does that Love mean anything ? This is one of the problems with forgiveness - the Christian doctrine of forgiveness makes no distinction between the sinner and the sinned against. But that is immoral, deeply so.

What sort of Love is it that treats offender and offended alike ? God's Love is, in effect, meaningless - it has no effect in practice. God's love for Mao's 70 million victims did them no good whatever. And it let Mao, their slaughterer, die in bed, of old age. And yet the Letter of James has some harsh things to say to those who don't help their brethren whom they see in need. That being so, God is far more to blame, for He saw 70 millions in dire need - and did nothing. :sad: God is said to work miracles - they didn't get one. Yet He is said to be capable of working a string of miracles to save His own people from the Egyptians. Why can God help a few Israelites 3,000 years ago, but not 6 million Jews 60 years ago or 70 million Chinese even more recently ? If He cannot help now - can we really be sure He did then ?

"[L]oving creator" ? If only there some basis for believing that. Sorry, but Christian teaching is immoral or impossible or impractical or simply third-rate. People need something better, without being scared into going along with unsatisfactory ideas merely because of the allegedly divine status of the person they are attributed to. If Christian ethics are deficient - people should say so.

I don't suppose any of this will get an answer :sad:

Which mature adult does not need forgiveness of his sins? I have discussed this with many agnostics and atheist that do not seek or desire god’s forgiveness and feel somewhat justified in the acts of hurting others to live with it to some degree.
The rest of what you said has to do with the need for tragedies. Do you agree with the concept: Death is the way good people go home to be with God and bad people quit doing bad stuff?

[Rushing Jaws]

The easiest answer is in the Crucifixion. Jesus forgave his murderers.

As for demanding God's help in temporal matters, it is not the temporal that we should care about, but the eternal. This world will not last forever; it is the next that should matter. The atrocity lies not in allowing people to do evil things, but in not allowing them the chance to repent.


## So the Shoah is not important ? That's what you seem to be saying; I don't believe for one second that you mean to. But that is what your words amount to.

How does the Crucifixion affect us for good? It's fine for him - but what good is that to us on earth ?



It is a bad thing when good people die, but depriving someone of their life on earth is far less consequential in the long run than depriving even the evil of the chance at eternal life. I seem to recall the a passage in the Bible that goes something like "don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but those who kill the soul".

I seem to recall responding to a post similar to this in another thread. I guess you didn't see it :shrug:## Clearly not :sad: But thanks anyway.

This is not really much help, I'm afraid. If the first sentence is true, why does Jesus teach what he does about prayer ? I know there is a long & distinguished tradition of saying that "it is not the temporal....that should matter" - but that does not do justice to the Biblical data; it's too spiritual to be really human. We are not spirits.

If this life is not that important, I can in effect treat people as horrendously as I like; after all, God loves me as well as the people whose lives I ruin. That, surely is a grossly immoral attitude - but it's logical, if this life is not that important.

[Rushing Jaws]

The easiest answer is in the Crucifixion. Jesus forgave his murderers.

As for demanding God's help in temporal matters, it is not the temporal that we should care about, but the eternal. This world will not last forever; it is the next that should matter. The atrocity lies not in allowing people to do evil things, but in not allowing them the chance to repent.


## So the Shoah is not important ? That's what you seem to be saying; I don't believe for one second that you mean to. But that is what your words amount to. God is a saviour, apparently, who does not save; His love for His people lets him sit back and do nothing - but if that is so, what is the difference between a God who saves, & a God who does not exist ? A god who has no effect is like love that has no effect - it's not worth discussing, because it is an effectless abstraction. As is such a God. That is what is so painful & frustrating. And why waste life serving an effectless abstraction ? Why pray to a God who does not hear ? Why should we slave our guts out for a God who ignores us ?

Job 21:15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? And what profit do we get if we pray to him?'
Mal 3:14 You have said, 'It is vain to serve God. What is the good of our keeping his charge or of walking as in mourning before the LORD of hosts?

People say it is in vain, because there is no reason to think it is not, and much reason to think that it is. If God does not want to be judged by results, He should not judge others by them.

God is always making promises - which never come to anything:

Mal 3:12 Then all nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:13 "Your words have been stout against me, says the LORD. Yet you say, 'How have we spoken against thee?'
Mal 3:14 You have said, 'It is vain to serve God. What is the good of our keeping his charge or of walking as in mourning before the LORD of hosts?
Mal 3:15 Henceforth we deem the arrogant blessed; evildoers not only prosper but when they put God to the test they escape.'"

How does the Crucifixion affect us for good? It's fine for him - but what good is that to man on earth ?



It is a bad thing when good people die, but depriving someone of their life on earth is far less consequential in the long run than depriving even the evil of the chance at eternal life. I seem to recall the a passage in the Bible that goes something like "don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but those who kill the soul".

I seem to recall responding to a post similar to this in another thread. I guess you didn't see it :shrug:## Clearly not :sad: But thanks anyway.

This is not really much help, I'm afraid. If the first sentence is true, why does Jesus teach what he does about prayer ? I know there is a long & distinguished tradition of saying that "it is not the temporal....that should matter" - but that does not do justice to the Biblical data; it's too spiritual to be really human. We are not spirits.

If this life is not that important, I can in effect treat people as horrendously as I like; after all, God loves me as well as the people whose lives I ruin. That, surely is a grossly immoral attitude - but it's logical, if this life is not that important.

[shunyadragon]

Wow. I apologize. I didn't realize that people wouldn't see the sarchasm. I D-O N-O-T believe the NewWorld Order will solve man's greatest problem. You say "idealic". If you read the responses here, you won't find a single answer that doesn't take some form of "idealic" to solve the problem. The question is what's most realistic? Man taking care of it himself or God taking care of it? It's up to you to decide. You're completely free to accept or reject. Just remember there is a problem. Everyone with any sense agrees with that. The next thing becomes how is it resolved? Me? I'll go with God.

I will go with God too.

[Rushing Jaws]

Which mature adult does not need forgiveness of his sins?

## Those who don't find the concepts of sin or forgiveness to have meaning or coherence, perhaps ? A further difficulty is that the Christian concepts both have a lot of theology hanging on them, and being expected to accept all that as well, in order to be forgiven, is probably not going to go down well with a lot of people. They might not unreasonably say that the Christian God is too demanding. Even while they might want or like forgiveness, whatever that might, in their POVs, entail.

People are good at putting up with what they have to - the need for forgiveness isn't unquenchable.

Besides, a lot of people are not forgiving, even if they are Christians - so those who offend them have to put up with being unforgiven, whether they like it or not. How does God affect matters ?


I have discussed this with many agnostics and atheist that do not seek or desire god’s forgiveness and feel somewhat justified in the acts of hurting others to live with it to some degree.
The rest of what you said has to do with the need for tragedies. Do you agree with the concept: Death is the way good people go home to be with God and bad people quit doing bad stuff?## I've no opinion either way. Sorry not to give a clearer answer.

[OneFollowingHim]

I'd say our greatest need is for people to emulate G-d's attributes of charity, mercy, and justice. We each need to do our part to repair the world and convert it from what-it-is to what-it-should-be.

You neglected to comment on an important part of my post. How does man solve his greatest problem? Without God there's only man left to solve his problem. It's not possible is the point. Read the answers here. They all require mutual consent among everyone. Do you believe this is possible? See my post #41.

This post #33 (yours) demonstrates this beautifully. That is, many of the answers given require mutual consent among everyone. Yours does. It'll never happen. I'm not saying your ambitious desire to have everyone seek to convert the world into something better isn't good. The problem is that everyone is trying to convert it from what it is to what they want it to be, not what it should be.

I hear you and understand you. But all the answers to my OP that leave God out fall short. Don't you see that? Every one of them call for man to unify behind something.

[Tanakh Keeper]

You neglected to comment on an important part of my post. How does man solve his greatest problem? Without God there's only man left to solve his problem. It's not possible is the point.

The need and the problem are the same thing. We imitate G-d's attributes by following G-d's Laws as He laid out in Torah. It is in our own best interests to do so. We know its possible because G-d told us that we can do it.

D e u t 30:11. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away. 12. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" 13. Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" 14. Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.


This post #33 (yours) demonstrates this beautifully. That is, many of the answers given require mutual consent among everyone. Yours does. It'll never happen.

G-d told us that it would happen eventually. G-d's word is good enough for me.

I don't understand your statement about mutual consent. The commands apply to each one of us. We each only need to worry about our own behavior, not anyone else's. The Talmud teaches that the strong person is the one who can control their own desires.


Every one of them call for man to unify behind something.

You are making up this concept of unity. That doesn't appear anywhere in Torah.

[OneFollowingHim]

The need and the problem are the same thing.

I don't agree. If the problem is hunger, the need is food. They are not the same thing. Is God both the problem and the need. I would say we need God, but He isn't the problem.


We imitate G-d's attributes by following G-d's Laws as He laid out in Torah.

Yes.


It is in our own best interests to do so.

Again, yes.


We know its possible because G-d told us that we can do it.

As in we keep all God's laws, without fail. What happens if we keep 99/100? Then what?


D e u t 30:11. For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away. 12. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" 13. Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" 14. Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

Who is the "you" and what is the "it"?


G-d told us that it would happen eventually. G-d's word is good enough for me.

God told us what would happen eventually?


I don't understand your statement about mutual consent. The commands apply to each one of us. We each only need to worry about our own behavior, not anyone else's. The Talmud teaches that the strong person is the one who can control their own desires.

You said,


I'd say our greatest need is for people to emulate G-d's attributes of charity, mercy, and justice. We each need to do our part to repair the world and convert it from what-it-is to what-it-should-be.

When you say "we each need to...", doesn't that imply mutual consent?


You are making up this concept of unity. That doesn't appear anywhere in Torah.

When you say "we each need to...", doesn't that imply "this concept of unity"?

[Tanakh Keeper]

I don't agree. If the problem is hunger, the need is food. They are not the same thing. Is God both the problem and the need. I would say we need God, but He isn't the problem.

I didn't say G-d was the need or the problem. I said that each of us need to imitate G-d's attributes of justice, mercy, and charity. The problem is that each of us doesn't. The need is that it is in our own best interests to do so.


As in we keep all God's laws, without fail.

The Torah doesn't say "without fail", that is a Christian addition to the bible. G-d made humans to be imperfect, He knows that we will make mistakes. This isn't a surprise to Him. Included in the Laws He gave us, are Laws for atonement (i.e. how to recover from our mistakes.) He wouldn't have included atonement laws if He didn't know we need them. We learn, we grow and in the process we will make mistakes. We atone for our mistakes and move on.


Who is the "you" and what is the "it"?
You is the people and it are G-d’s commandments.


God told us "what" would happen eventually?
The perfection of the world, the messianic age.


When you say "we each need to...", doesn't that imply mutual consent?
No. I don’t need your consent to do a commandment. You don’t need my consent to act charitably. Each of us is only responsible for our own actions.

[OneFollowingHim]

I didn't say G-d was the need or the problem. I said that each of us need to imitate G-d's attributes of justice, mercy, and charity. The problem is that each of us doesn't. The need is that it is in our own best interests to do so.

There's no need for God?


The Torah doesn't say "without fail", that is a Christian addition to the bible. G-d made humans to be imperfect, He knows that we will make mistakes. This isn't a surprise to Him. Included in the Laws He gave us, are Laws for atonement (i.e. how to recover from our mistakes.) He wouldn't have included atonement laws if He didn't know we need them. We learn, we grow and in the process we will make mistakes. We atone for our mistakes and move on.

Can you define mistake and explain how we atone for our mistakes?


You is the people and it are G-d’s commandments.

But clearly not everone obeys God's commandments.


The perfection of the world, the messianic age.

So this really is man's greatest need, no?


No. I don’t need your consent to do a commandment. You don’t need my consent to act charitably. Each of us is only responsible for our own actions.

I don't mean consent between eachother. On your view, each one of us must mutually consent to the same thing, i.e., obey the commandments and act charitably. Until everyone mutually consents to do that, man's greatest need is unfulfilled, on your view.

[Rushing Jaws]

You neglected to comment on an important part of my post. How does man solve his greatest problem? Without God there's only man left to solve his problem. It's not possible is the point. Read the answers here. They all require mutual consent among everyone. Do you believe this is possible? See my post #41.

This post #33 (yours) demonstrates this beautifully. That is, many of the answers given require mutual consent among everyone. Yours does. It'll never happen. I'm not saying your ambitious desire to have everyone seek to convert the world into something better isn't good. The problem is that everyone is trying to convert it from what it is to what they want it to be, not what it should be.

I hear you and understand you. But all the answers to my OP that leave God out fall short. Don't you see that? Every one of them call for man to unify behind something.## About this last point - how else is anything going to be done ? :smile: God is not going to appear and sort things out - the closest man ever gets to being given that, is someone claiming to be a messenger of God of some kind. But only some people believe them either. So man has to help himself. Nobody is going to help him, whether Divine or alien.

Unless you believe in the Return of Christ - but all those who heard the predictions that it would happen within their generation are dead, as are the 60 or so generations since then; so I think we can safely ignore it.

[Tanakh Keeper]

There's no need for God?
Your OP asked for our GREATEST need, not only need.


Can you define mistake and explain how we atone for our mistakes?
It’s nice that you are interested. A mistake is “Failing to adhere to a commandment”. To atone for a mistake, we follow the Laws of Teshuvah. 1) Admit that we made a mistake. 2) Make appropriate restitution to whomever we’ve wronged. 3) Ask for forgiveness from the person/people that we’ve wronged 4) Vow not to repeat the mistake and ask for forgiveness from G-d.


But clearly not everone obeys God's commandments.
Obviously, this is why this is our greatest need.


So this really is man's greatest need, no?
In my opinion, yes. Wouldn’t you like to live in a perfect world?


On your view, each one of us must mutually consent to the same thing, i.e., obey the commandments and act charitably. Until everyone mutually consents to do that, man's greatest need is unfulfilled, on your view.

It’s a process. The more of us that obey the commandments, the better the world will become. I think I see what you’re driving at. It only makes sense that the more people desire and display the divine attributes of justice, charity, and mercy, the better our world will become. I don’t know where the dividing line is, but eventually we should reach some point of “critical mass”. It's obviously not an easy thing and will take a lot of time. However G-d says it will happen at some point.

[OneFollowingHim]

## About this last point - how else is anything going to be done ? :smile: God is not going to appear and sort things out - the closest man ever gets to being given that, is someone claiming to be a messenger of God of some kind. But only some people believe them either. So man has to help himself. Nobody is going to help him, whether Divine or alien.

Unless you believe in the Return of Christ - but all those who heard the predictions that it would happen within their generation are dead, as are the 60 or so generations since then; so I think we can safely ignore it.

So unless everyone agrees with all of the varying answers to man's greatest need, it goes unfulfilled.

[OneFollowingHim]

Your OP asked for our GREATEST need, not only need.

Man cannot fulfill his greatest need.


It’s nice that you are interested. A mistake is “Failing to adhere to a commandment”. To atone for a mistake, we follow the Laws of Teshuvah. 1) Admit that we made a mistake. 2) Make appropriate restitution to whomever we’ve wronged. 3) Ask for forgiveness from the person/people that we’ve wronged 4) Vow not to repeat the mistake and ask for forgiveness from G-d.

Where do animal sacrifices fit in?


Obviously, this is why this is our greatest need.

But until everyone, in every conrner of the world complies, it remains man's greatest need. My skepticism level is over the top as far as this ever becomming reality if it's up to man alone to fulfill.


In my opinion, yes. Wouldn’t you like to live in a perfect world?

How is this accomplished?


It’s a process. The more of us that obey the commandments, the better the world will become. I think I see what you’re driving at. It only makes sense that the more people desire and display the divine attributes of justice, charity, and mercy, the better our world will become. I don’t know where the dividing line is, but eventually we should reach some point of “critical mass”. It's obviously not an easy thing and will take a lot of time. However G-d says it will happen at some point.

Are you saying only a majority need to obey God's commandments to achieve that level of perfection you mentioned earlier and not unanimous agreement?

[Rushing Jaws]

So unless everyone agrees with all of the varying answers to man's greatest need, it goes unfulfilled.## Well, as you said, in post 57:

You neglected to comment on an important part of my post. How does man solve his greatest problem? Without God there's only man left to solve his problem. It's not possible is the point. Read the answers here.They all require mutual consent among everyone. Do you believe this is possible? See my post #41.[My emphasis]

So we shall have to muddle on as best we can.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Man cannot fulfill his greatest need.

G-d said that we could. Do you doubt G-d?


Where do animal sacrifices fit in?

Not much. There is a LOT of misunderstanding regarding the sacrificial law among Christians. If I were to go into details about it, this thread would become permanently changed. The Laws of Teshuvah that I already posted will cleanse every sin, mistake, or error that a person could make.


But until everyone, in every conrner of the world complies, it remains man's greatest need. My skepticism level is over the top as far as this ever becomming reality if it's up to man alone to fulfill.

Surely you didn't expect our greatest need to be solved quickly, did you? Logically, if it was easy, then it would have been solved millennium ago. All I know is that G-d said it would be solved eventually. No time table was provided. It could be tomorrow or it could be 10,000 years from now, for all we know. With the hope and expectation that it is tomorrow, we should follow G-d's attributes now to be ready for it.


Are you saying only a majority need to obey God's commandments to achieve that level of perfection you mentioned earlier and not unanimous agreement?

No, I'm saying I don't know those details. Also, it is not a level of PERFECTION, it is a level of compliance. We imperfect humans will always make mistakes. To be in adherence with the laws, mistakes must be made. Otherwise no one would ever adhere to the Laws of Teshuvah.

[Rushing Jaws]

G-d said that we could. Do you doubt G-d?



Not much. There is a LOT of misunderstanding regarding the sacrificial law among Christians. If I were to go into details about it, this thread would become permanently changed. The Laws of Teshuvah that I already posted will cleanse every sin, mistake, or error that a person could make.



Surely you didn't expect our greatest need to be solved quickly, did you? Logically, if it was easy, then it would have been solved millennium ago. All I know is that G-d said it would be solved eventually. No time table was provided. It could be tomorrow or it could be 10,000 years from now, for all we know. With the hope and expectation that it is tomorrow, we should follow G-d's attributes now to be ready for it.



No, I'm saying I don't know those details. Also, it is not a level of PERFECTION, it is a level of compliance. We imperfect humans will always make mistakes. To be in adherence with the laws, mistakes must be made. Otherwise no one would ever adhere to the Laws of Teshuvah.## Is belief in a Messiah of any importance in Judaism these days ? A Messiah on the Prophetic model seems to be the only way anything will be radically changed.

How do Jews cope with all those promises of a Messiah or of a Divinely-altered improvement in affairs ? As a Gentile, I'm not impressed by all those unfilfilled promises & unfulfilled prophecies - they make God & the Prophets look like snake-oil salesmen. I don't think this is off-topic one bit.

TY in advance :smile::lol:

[OneFollowingHim]

G-d said that we could. Do you doubt G-d?

Of course not. I'm doubting your interpretation of what God said.


Not much. There is a LOT of misunderstanding regarding the sacrificial law among Christians. If I were to go into details about it, this thread would become permanently changed. The Laws of Teshuvah that I already posted will cleanse every sin, mistake, or error that a person could make.

Start a new thread if you want to on animal sacrifice. I'll participate.

I do have a question about murder though. How do you do one of the things you listed in post #63. The part where you say, "(we) Make appropriate restitution to whomever we’ve wronged." How do you do that if the person is dead?


Surely you didn't expect our greatest need to be solved quickly, did you? Logically, if it was easy, then it would have been solved millennium ago. All I know is that G-d said it would be solved eventually. No time table was provided. It could be tomorrow or it could be 10,000 years from now, for all we know. With the hope and expectation that it is tomorrow, we should follow G-d's attributes now to be ready for it.

You mentioned the messainic age. Does Messiah play an active role in solving man's greatest problem? Or does Messiah come passively after everyone agrees.


No, I'm saying I don't know those details. Also, it is not a level of PERFECTION, it is a level of compliance. We imperfect humans will always make mistakes. To be in adherence with the laws, mistakes must be made. Otherwise no one would ever adhere to the Laws of Teshuvah.

You did say "eventually we should reach some point of 'critical mass'." That sounds a lot like a majority or some number that tips the balance so to speak. Does that mean everyone on the "other side" falls in line at that point? I guess they don't have a choice in the matter once that happens. Wold that be what you're saying?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Start a new thread if you want to on animal sacrifice.
Nah, I’m good.


I do have a question about murder though. How do you do one of the things you listed in post #63. The part where you say, "(we) Make appropriate restitution to whomever we’ve wronged." How do you do that if the person is dead?
Then the restitution would either be to the survivors or to society. Any given crime/sin/error may damage more than one person. The person that commits the crime has to make restitution and seek forgiveness from all who were wronged.


You mentioned the Messainic age. Does Messiah play an active role in solving man's greatest problem? Or does Messiah come passively after everyone agrees.
Ah, now that’s an interesting question. The answer is that there isn’t a clear answer. The Torah is unclear whether the messiah is a cause or an effect of the Messianic age. IMO, being the cause is the passive approach and being an effect is the active approach. I personally believe the messiah is only an effect. I like to think that humanity will become better and better through each of our own actions. Eventually when enough people reach a more divine way of acting, our world will enter the Messianic age and the messiah will appear as our political leader. May it come within our lifetimes!

You did say "eventually we should reach some point of 'critical mass'." That sounds a lot like a majority or some number that tips the balance so to speak. Does that mean everyone on the "other side" falls in line at that point?

I don’t know. I never thought about these details that you’re asking. I think it is much more important to focus on what I can do to bring about the Messianic age, rather than worry about what someone else is doing.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Is belief in a Messiah of any importance in Judaism these days ? A Messiah on the Prophetic model seems to be the only way anything will be radically changed.

In Judaism, the messiah has always been less important than the Messianic Age. The messiah is just our first political leader at the start of the Messianic Age. The Messianic Age is the fulfillment of the prophecies. World Peace! The Temple Rebuilt! The universal knowledge of G-d! Everyone on planet Earth will share in the benefits. It is an awesome vision. I can’t wait for the fulfillment of the prophecies, May it come in our lifetime.


How do Jews cope with all those promises of a Messiah or of a Divinely-altered improvement in affairs ?

What do you mean by “cope”? It is a glorious vision of the future. What’s not to like about universally-embraced World peace?

Also, it isn’t “divinely-altered”. Since the messiah is a man, whether the messiah is a cause or an effect, the Messianic Age will be “humanly-altered.”

[OneFollowingHim]

Nah, I’m good.

Coward!


Then the restitution would either be to the survivors or to society. Any given crime/sin/error may damage more than one person. The person that commits the crime has to make restitution and seek forgiveness from all who were wronged.

Sounds ad hoc.


Ah, now that’s an interesting question. The answer is that there isn’t a clear answer. The Torah is unclear whether the messiah is a cause or an effect of the Messianic age. IMO, being the cause is the passive approach and being an effect is the active approach. I personally believe the messiah is only an effect. I like to think that humanity will become better and better through each of our own actions. Eventually when enough people reach a more divine way of acting, our world will enter the Messianic age and the messiah will appear as our political leader. May it come within our lifetimes!

Can you comment on what God is doing in Deuteronomy 30:6? Is this required for us to fulfill the commandments?


I don’t know. I never thought about these details that you’re asking. I think it is much more important to focus on what I can do to bring about the Messianic age, rather than worry about what someone else is doing.

There's a problem, Houston. On your view, what everyone else is doing is essential to solving our greatest need. So again, I say man can't fulfill his greatest need. Some will never repent. So God blots them out. See Deuteronomy 29:20.

[Rainbow Brite]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind.

Love of God and each other.


Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

[Tanakh Keeper]

I don't appreciate being told that I'm making up answers (ad hoc?) as I'm explaining Jewish Law.

This is getting repetitive, I've already answered most of these questions before. G-d plainly says we can do it. Your disagreements with G-d are your own issue.

Our greatest need is individual. Just solve your own problems. That is all that you can take responsibility for.

[OneFollowingHim]

I don't appreciate being told that I'm making up answers (ad hoc?) as I'm explaining Jewish Law.

This is getting repetitive, I've already answered most of these questions before. G-d plainly says we can do it. Your disagreements with G-d are your own issue.

Our greatest need is individual. Just solve your own problems. That is all that you can take responsibility for.

You need to turn down your sensitivity meter. Your explanation of Jewish law should have included murder. Your argument isn't very tight. I don't consider murder a "mistake". What happened to sin?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Your explanation of Jewish law should have included murder.

Why? The atonement process is generally the same, no matter the type of error or sin. Does Christianity believe murder is different from any other type of sin? Should murder always be mentioned separately from sin?


I don't consider murder a "mistake".

No? American law sometimes does. There is murder: in self-defense, through negligence, through gross negligence, purposeful, or pre-meditated. In American law, the punishments for different types of murder can range from none-at-all to the death penalty.


What happened to sin?

Christianity defines "sin" differently from Judaism. As a matter of fact, Christianity defines many words differently than Judaism. That's why our beliefs and religions are so different, our glossary is different.

According to Torah, there are three kinds or levels of transgressions ranging in severity from the least serious to the most serious. Chatat is accidental or unintentional. It is usually compared to an archer missing the mark. This is the ONLY type of sin (or error) that can be atoned for by sacrifice. Next is Ovon, which is being led astray or allowing yourself to be led astray. The most serious is Pesha which are deliberate violations of G-d's Law.

[OneFollowingHim]

Why? The atonement process is generally the same, no matter the type of error or sin. Does Christianity believe murder is different from any other type of sin? Should murder always be mentioned separately from sin?

Your description should have encompassed murder. That's what I meant by included. Not that it should have specifically named murder.

Here's your description of atonement:


It’s nice that you are interested. A mistake is “Failing to adhere to a commandment”. To atone for a mistake, we follow the Laws of Teshuvah. 1) Admit that we made a mistake. 2) Make appropriate restitution to whomever we’ve wronged. 3) Ask for forgiveness from the person/people that we’ve wronged 4) Vow not to repeat the mistake and ask for forgiveness from G-d.

What's "appropriate restitution" in the case of any form of murder? Give up your own life? That might be true if you murdred one person. But not if you've murdered more than one.


No? American law sometimes does. There is murder: in self-defense, through negligence, through gross negligence, purposeful, or pre-meditated. In American law, the punishments for different types of murder can range from none-at-all to the death penalty.

In my mind, a mistake is answering incorrectly on a math test or measuring incorreclty when cutting a piece of wood. Sin is far beyond a "mistake". Sin offends a Person, namely God. And the restitution is owed to God because not all offenses involve another human. Take coveting, for example. You need not do anything beyond desire to be guilty of coveting. And so the person offended is God and restitution is owed to Him and Him alone.

You never answered the things in my post #72. If God is involved in any way with our ability to carry out His commands, we alone cannot solve our greatest need.


Christianity defines "sin" differently from Judaism. As a matter of fact, Christianity defines many words differently than Judaism. That's why our beliefs and religions are so different, our glossary is different.

Yes. I very much agree with you on this. That's another thread though.


According to Torah, there are three kinds or levels of transgressions ranging in severity from the least serious to the most serious. Chatat is accidental or unintentional. It is usually compared to an archer missing the mark. This is the ONLY type of sin (or error) that can be atoned for by sacrifice. Next is Ovon, which is being led astray or allowing yourself to be led astray. The most serious is Pesha which are deliberate violations of G-d's Law.

On my view, I agree with James 2:10. One violation of God's commands puts you in the categroy of law breaker. James is correcting an error in Jewish thinking which "taught, ‘that he who observed any principal command was equal to him who kept the whole law,’ and gave for an example the forsaking of idolatry". The treasury of scripture knowledge : Five hundred thousand scripture references and parallel passages. 1995. Introduction by R.A. Torrey. (Jas 2:10). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

I would also refer you to Deuteronomy 27:26.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Your description should have encompassed murder. That's what I meant by included. Not that it should have specifically named murder.


A mistake is “Failing to adhere to a commandment”. To atone for a mistake, we follow the Laws of Teshuvah. 1) Admit that we made a mistake. 2) Make appropriate restitution to whomever we’ve wronged. 3) Ask for forgiveness from the person/people that we’ve wronged 4) Vow not to repeat the mistake and ask for forgiveness from G-d.

Ah, I think you are hung up on the word “mistake” that I posted above. I used that word to avoid commingling with the Christian-errors associated with the word “sin”. It would have been more proper for me to say mistake/error/sin, instead of just mistake. So stated properly, Teshuvah atones for all sins/errors/mistakes that humans make.


What's "appropriate restitution" in the case of any form of murder(s)?

The specifics of “Appropriate restitution” would be adjudicated by the judges hearing the case, and the facts and circumstances thereof.


Sin is far beyond a "mistake". Sin offends a Person, namely God. And the restitution is owed to God because not all offenses involve another human. Take coveting, for example. You need not do anything beyond desire to be guilty of coveting. And so the person offended is God and restitution is owed to Him and Him alone.

This is another huge difference between our religions. According to Torah, G-d created us imperfectly. G-d isn’t offended by our behavior because He made us this way. He knows that we will sin and make mistakes. That is why He gave us the Laws of Teshuvah to atone for our mistakes/sins/errors. G-d isn’t surprised that humans sin and make mistakes, He expects it. He gave us the tools to deal with it. It is up to us humans, with our freewill, to choose the good and forbear the evil.

You are correct that the Teshuvah Laws differ if our offense is just against G-d. In that case, step 3 above (and possibly step 2) would be dropped.


You never answered the things in my post #72. If God is involved in any way with our ability to carry out His commands, we alone cannot solve our greatest need.

I never said we do it alone. Re-read Step 4 of Teshuvah. The final step is asking forgiveness from G-d. G-d is all-Merciful. If we sincerely repent and atone, then He forgives us.


On my view, I agree with James 2:10….

Yes, another difference from G-d’s word and Judaism. Christianity adds an additional set of books and diverges from G-d’s teachings.

[Rainbow Brite]

Yes, another difference from G-d’s word and Judaism. Christianity adds an additional set of books and diverges from G-d’s teachings.

The NT does teach a lot of what Judaism teaches though despite difference in approach, to love the God of Israel and each other, to make amends for sin, a lot of things Gentiles might be without if they had to rely on Judaism to teach it. I mean, most people I know don't know what the heck Noahide is when I mention it. So Christianity serves a purpose.

But to one of your points, how does Judaism teach Gentiles to atone, the command isn't in Noahide or anything. Where would they learn how to do that from Jewish texts or codes?

[Tanakh Keeper]

The NT does teach a lot of what Judaism teaches...

I agree to strongly disagree.


But to one of your points, how does Judaism teach Gentiles to atone, the command isn't in Noahide or anything. Where would they learn how to do that from Jewish texts or codes?

G-d wrote the bible for Jews. Most non-Jews don't know how to read Hebrew, for a start. So they wouldn't be able to read Jewish texts or codes. Non-Jews would learn from our teachers.

[Rainbow Brite]

I agree to strongly disagree.

Ok, then the NT does teach one thing Judaism teaches...


Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Anyway...


G-d wrote the bible for Jews. Most non-Jews don't know how to read Hebrew, for a start. So they wouldn't be able to read Jewish texts or codes. Non-Jews would learn from our teachers.

Where do Gentiles go to do that? Billions of Gentiles can just pick up the Christian Bible and learn about loving God and each other, you don't need to know Hebrew or a teacher for that. If Judaism was the most correct way, why isn't it reaching more Gentiles in the world, in comparison?

[OneSizeFit]

This is an open discussion on the greatest need of mankind. Is it sin, war, famine, starvation, terrorism, Christianity, Atheism, or what?

I'm looking for some wisdom here. Anyone, theist, atheist, pantheists, whoever is welcome to chime in.

(If this has been discussed previously, then point us to that place.)

Mankind's greatest need is empathy. Man's greatest sin is one of inaction. Ego induced fear is the cause.

[samparker]

I believe man's greatest need (as in desire) is that there be a "bigger picture" or hope. Even for those that are prosperous in this world have a need to believe that there is something after the mortal life.....a reason to go through daily trials and tribulations.

Because of this, I firmly believe that it if it were somehow possible to "prove" the non-existence of God, there would still be "religion".

As for greatest need as in problem, I'd probably say "understanding". This means everything from tolerance toward other races and religions, as well as trying to see any given issue from all sides (your side, my side, and an impartial side).

yes i am agree with you...............