A humble challenge for "Christ-Mythicists"

[Sevivon1913]

Dear Christ-Mythicists (you know who you are and I'm sure JP Holding has a website article dedicated to each of you),

I recently checked all the sources for the usual Christ-myth claims and found them to be wanting. They are mostly based on texts that are not available (nor not even heard of), written in the 19th and early 20th century when philology was limited and by non-experts, are twisted out of their original context to make it appear to mirror the life of Christ AND some are even based on texts that are so vague that they could mean anything you wanted them to. Could any of you please answer the following challenge:



The easy part

Provide atleast one example of any pre-Christian myth - from anywhere in the world - in which:

A god, divine entity, or even a holy man died to redeem the world

AND / OR

Was born of an alleged virgin



The difficult part

Provide EVIDENCE directly from an original source (or translation of the source) which was translated at a stage in philology when that language was coherently decipherable.




Thanks,

Sevi

[zorathruster]

challenge:



The easy part

Provide atleast one example of any pre-Christian myth - from anywhere in the world - in which:

A god, divine entity, or even a holy man died to redeem the world

AND / OR

Was born of an alleged virgin



Thanks,

Sevi

CRUCIFIXION OF CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.Among the sin-atoning Gods who condescended in ancient times to forsake the throne of heaven, and descend upon the plains of India, through human birth, to suffer and die for the sins and transgressions of the human race, the eighth Avatar, or Savior, may be considered the most important and the most exalted character, as he led the most conspicuous life, and commanded the most devout and the most universal homage. And while some of the other incarnate demigods were invested with only a limited measure of the infinite deityship, Chrishna, according to the teachings of their New Testament (the Ramazand), comprehended in himself "a full measure of the God-head bodily." The evidence of his having been crucified is as conclusive as any other sacrificial or sin-atoning God, whose name has been memorialized in history, or embalmed as a sacred idol in the memories of his devout worshipers.

CRUCIFIXION OF THE HINDOO SAKIA, 600 B.C.How many Gods who figured in Hindoo history suffered death upon the cross as atoning offerings for the sins of mankind is a point not clearly established by their sacred books. But the death of the God above named, known as Sakia, Budha Sakia, or Sakia Muni, is distinctly referred to by several writers, both oriental and Christian, though there appears to be in Buddhist countries different accounts of the death of the famous and extensively worshiped sin-atoning Saviors.


In some countries, the story runs, a God was crucified by an arrow being driven through his body, which fastened him to a tree; the tree, with the arrow thus projecting at right angles, formed the cross, emblematical of the atoning sacrifice.

HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.Mr. Higgins informs us that the Celtic Druids represent their God Hesus as having been crucified with a lamb on one side and an elephant on the other, and that this occurred long before the Christian era. Also that a representation of it may now be seen upon "the fire-tower of Brechin."


In this symbolical representation of the crucifixion, the elephant, being the largest animal known, was chosen to represent the magnitude of the sins of the world, while the lamb, from its proverbial innocent nature, was chosen to represent the innocency of the victim (the God offered as a propitiatory sacrifice). And thus we have "the Lamb of God taking away the sins of the world"

THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.Thulis of Egypt, whence comes "Ultima Thule," died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago.


Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the Gods.

This Egyptian Savior appears also to have been known as Zulis, and with this name "his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple." We are told twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years be lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became "the judge of the dead," or of souls in a future state.

ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.Speaking of this crucified Messiah, the Anacalypsis informs us that several histories are given of him, but all concur in representing him as having been an atoning offering for sin. And the Latin phrase "suspensus lingo," found in his history, indicates the manner of his death. He was suspended on a tree, crucified, buried and rose again.

CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.The Chaldeans, as Mr. Higgins informs us, have noted in their sacred books the account of the crucifixion of a God with the above name. He was also known as "the Redeemer," and was styled "the Ever Blessed Son of God," "the Savior of the Race," "the Atoning Offering for an Angry God." And when he was offered up, both heaven and earth were shaken to their foundations.

MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.This Persian God was "slain upon the cross to make atonement for mankind, and to take away the sins of the world." He was reputedly born on the twenty-fifth day of December, and crucified on a tree. It is a remarkable circumstance that two Christian writers (Mr. Faber and Mr. Bryant) both speak of his being slain," and yet both omit to speak of the manner in which he was put to death. And the same policy has been pursued with respect to other crucified Gods of the pagans, as we have shown elsewhere.

Nine more well researched and annotated in:

"The World's sixteen crucified saviors" Kersey Graves

[shadowman]

acharya s is no good. she is as bad as people that rally behind the "conspiracy" exposed by davinci code.

it sounds good. but it is a straw man for the christians to knock down.

interesting story and thats it.

[Sevivon1913]

.........

Nine more well researched and annotated in:

"The World's sixteen crucified saviors" Kersey Graves

Is this an attempt at irony?

You think a 19th century author,

with no qualifications whatsoever, :duh:

who wrote at a time when philology (especially in Sanskrit) was in its infancy, :doh:

who relied on secondary and tertiary sources of questionable authenticity, :rasberry:

and who is a major source for Archarya S? :lmbo:


I asked for PRIMARY SOURCE EVIDENCE and not hearsay from an uneducated, unqualified and long dead oddball :lolo: who himself relied on hearsay based on hearsay. That should be easy, shouldn't it? :juggle:

Sevi

[guacamole]

CRUCIFIXION OF CHRISHNA OF INDIA, 1200 B.C.Among the sin-atoning Gods who condescended in ancient times to forsake the throne of heaven, and descend upon the plains of India, through human birth, to suffer and die for the sins and transgressions of the human race, the eighth Avatar, or Savior, may be considered the most important and the most exalted character, as he led the most conspicuous life, and commanded the most devout and the most universal homage. And while some of the other incarnate demigods were invested with only a limited measure of the infinite deityship, Chrishna, according to the teachings of their New Testament (the Ramazand), comprehended in himself "a full measure of the God-head bodily." The evidence of his having been crucified is as conclusive as any other sacrificial or sin-atoning God, whose name has been memorialized in history, or embalmed as a sacred idol in the memories of his devout worshipers.

CRUCIFIXION OF THE HINDOO SAKIA, 600 B.C.How many Gods who figured in Hindoo history suffered death upon the cross as atoning offerings for the sins of mankind is a point not clearly established by their sacred books. But the death of the God above named, known as Sakia, Budha Sakia, or Sakia Muni, is distinctly referred to by several writers, both oriental and Christian, though there appears to be in Buddhist countries different accounts of the death of the famous and extensively worshiped sin-atoning Saviors.


In some countries, the story runs, a God was crucified by an arrow being driven through his body, which fastened him to a tree; the tree, with the arrow thus projecting at right angles, formed the cross, emblematical of the atoning sacrifice.

HESUS OF THE CELTIC DRUIDS CRUCIFIED, 834 B.C.Mr. Higgins informs us that the Celtic Druids represent their God Hesus as having been crucified with a lamb on one side and an elephant on the other, and that this occurred long before the Christian era. Also that a representation of it may now be seen upon "the fire-tower of Brechin."


In this symbolical representation of the crucifixion, the elephant, being the largest animal known, was chosen to represent the magnitude of the sins of the world, while the lamb, from its proverbial innocent nature, was chosen to represent the innocency of the victim (the God offered as a propitiatory sacrifice). And thus we have "the Lamb of God taking away the sins of the world"

THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.Thulis of Egypt, whence comes "Ultima Thule," died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago.


Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the Gods.

This Egyptian Savior appears also to have been known as Zulis, and with this name "his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple." We are told twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years be lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became "the judge of the dead," or of souls in a future state.

ATYS OF PHRYGIA CRUCIFIED, 1170 B.C.Speaking of this crucified Messiah, the Anacalypsis informs us that several histories are given of him, but all concur in representing him as having been an atoning offering for sin. And the Latin phrase "suspensus lingo," found in his history, indicates the manner of his death. He was suspended on a tree, crucified, buried and rose again.

CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.The Chaldeans, as Mr. Higgins informs us, have noted in their sacred books the account of the crucifixion of a God with the above name. He was also known as "the Redeemer," and was styled "the Ever Blessed Son of God," "the Savior of the Race," "the Atoning Offering for an Angry God." And when he was offered up, both heaven and earth were shaken to their foundations.

MITHRA OF PERSIA CRUCIFIED, 600 B.C.This Persian God was "slain upon the cross to make atonement for mankind, and to take away the sins of the world." He was reputedly born on the twenty-fifth day of December, and crucified on a tree. It is a remarkable circumstance that two Christian writers (Mr. Faber and Mr. Bryant) both speak of his being slain," and yet both omit to speak of the manner in which he was put to death. And the same policy has been pursued with respect to other crucified Gods of the pagans, as we have shown elsewhere.

Nine more well researched and annotated in:

"The World's sixteen crucified saviors" Kersey Graves

Wow. Once again, what passes as "skepticism" amounts to an unquestioning acceptance of a theory sans documentation without reference to primary sources.

Come on lad. Give us the primary mythic texts for one of those.

[Sevivon1913]

Wow. Once again, what passes as "skepticism" amounts to an unquestioning acceptance of a theory sans documentation without reference to primary sources.

Come on lad. Give us the primary mythic texts for one of those.
Notice in his quote of the original challenge, he conveniently deleted the second half which asks for EVIDENCE......that's the type of unsubtle quoting and twisting out of context that I was refering to :rasberry:

[zorathruster]

Pretty typical. Answer the question, site references, give examples, and because they don't like the format, wording, date for reference or other criteria, try to discount it.

The major reason for lack of cross reference material is that for 2000 years the church has systematically destroyed the "quality of reference" you desire. Why even a debate board such as this would have ended people on the gallows merely 300 years ago and most of those blasphemy laws have been on the books until the last century. So to write a critical book for the last two thousand years was a death wish.

Cute attempt at desiring critical material. Wow what passes as "critical evaluation" amounts to an unquestioning acceptance of theory generated by a primative social group operating in the deserts of the middle east over two thousand years ago as "primary reference" for reality. Come on lad, join the twenty first century and reject the primative world of animal sacrifice, capital punishment for meger transgressions, and rules that even the most devoted are unable to abide by.

[Sevivon1913]

Pretty typical. Answer the question, site references, give examples, and because they don't like the format, wording, date for reference or other criteria, try to discount it.

The major reason for lack of cross reference material is that for 2000 years the church has systematically destroyed the "quality of reference" you desire. Why even a debate board such as this would have ended people on the gallows merely 300 years ago and most of those blasphemy laws have been on the books until the last century. So to write a critical book for the last two thousand years was a death wish.

Cute attempt at desiring critical material. Wow what passes as "critical evaluation" amounts to an unquestioning acceptance of theory generated by a primative social group operating in the deserts of the middle east over two thousand years ago as "primary reference" for reality. Come on lad, join the twenty first century and reject the primative world of animal sacrifice, capital punishment for meger transgressions, and rules that even the most devoted are unable to abide by.

You altered my question in your quote and deleted my clear request for EVIDENCE from a primary source. Sure, if you can't answer, I understand you wanting to change the question itself.

How do you know non-existent evidence is only non-existent becuse the Church allegedly destroyed it? That may pass as a valid suspicion, but it doesn't prove a thing.

The Church didn't even have in India until the 19th Century when the British East India Company finally unbanned them from access. They were mainly missionaries of the higher classes who engaged in the study of philology. They published all the writings they translated from Sanskrit and there is no evidence that they destroyed anything. If anything, many of these people were so impressed by the Vedic (Hindi Golden Age) culture that they believed it was superior to Western culture. Some of them even suggested that the Hindus had once been Christians in their beliefs, so similar it was. However, they never provided any instances of a god-man dying to redeem the world and being born of a virgin (the latter, most likely, possible but without the company of the former). The similarity was that Krishna was God incarnate and was born of a virgin, just like Jesus -- but the similarities end there. Krishna did not die for the sins of the world or to redeem it -- and he certainly didn't ressurect. The very mention of this, and the fact that it wasn't destroyed by the philologists, and that the Church had no power in India prior to this, proves that the Chruch did not systematically destroy evidence in India.

Do you have any evidence for Krishna dying to redeem the world (and preferably being born again)? BTW, Krishna was a sexist male-chauvenist who was promiscuous even as a child --- his character is nothing like that of Jesus.

[guacamole]

Pretty typical. Answer the question, site references, give examples, and because they don't like the format, wording, date for reference or other criteria, try to discount it.

If there is evidence cite the evidence. Is this not the standard skeptics have relied upon?



The major reason for lack of cross reference material is that for 2000 years the church has systematically destroyed the "quality of reference" you desire.

If the evidence has been systematically destroyed, then there isn't going to be good evidence, now is there?

Is it really skeptical to take someone else's word for it in the mean time?



Why even a debate board such as this would have ended people on the gallows merely 300 years ago and most of those blasphemy laws have been on the books until the last century. So to write a critical book for the last two thousand years was a death wish.

Irrelevant.



Cute attempt at desiring critical material. Wow what passes as "critical evaluation" amounts to an unquestioning acceptance of theory generated by a primative social group operating in the deserts of the middle east over two thousand years ago as "primary reference" for reality.

So you substitute unquestioning acceptance of Gardner and Archaya S.? What?



Come on lad, join the twenty first century and reject the primative world of animal sacrifice, capital punishment for meger transgressions, and rules that even the most devoted are unable to abide by.

You haven't read any primary sources cited by Christ mythers, have you?

fwiw
guaca.

[zorathruster]

How do you know non-existent evidence is only non-existent becuse the Church allegedly destroyed it? That may pass as a valid suspicion, but it doesn't prove a thing.

Do you have any evidence for Krishna dying to redeem the world (and preferably being born again)? BTW, Krishna was a sexist male-chauvenist who was promiscuous even as a child --- his character is nothing like that of Jesus.

Please read both of your points above. Now you assert in the second about how Jesus was not promiscuous as a child yet there is as noted in your first point, no evidence of that assertion. It may be your desire, but there is no evidence that his character did not include normal promiscuous behavior for a teenager. To refute that would need to have a FULL life history attested to and in depth which you don't provide.

[Sevivon1913]

Please read both of your points above. Now you assert in the second about how Jesus was not promiscuous as a child yet there is as noted in your first point, no evidence of that assertion. It may be your desire, but there is no evidence that his character did not include normal promiscuous behavior for a teenager. To refute that would need to have a FULL life history attested to and in depth which you don't provide.
What :duh ???

There is no evidence tha Jesus was ever WAS promoscuous, nevermind as a teenager. Lack of evidence that Jesus was NOT promiscuous does not prove he WAS promiscuous.

Following your silly line of reasoning:

I could say Henry Kissinger was visited by aliens when he was 6 yrs old and had his face made ugly --- of course, the fact that there is no evidence that they DIDN'T, must prove it's true (according to your reasoning). Are you really that dumb, or are you winding me up?

I fail to see the relevence of and of your response to the matter at hand:

!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!!!! EVIDENCE !!! !!! EVIDENCE !!!

[Piebald]

Guys, the evidence for the systematic destruction of specific documents has likewise been destroyed. And the evidence of that destruction of evidence was also destroyed. Just want to make this clear.

[zorathruster]

What :duh ???

There is no evidence tha Jesus was ever WAS promoscuous, nevermind as a teenager. Lack of evidence that Jesus was NOT promiscuous does not prove he WAS promiscuous.

Following your silly line of reasoning:

I could say Henry Kissinger was visited by aliens when he was 6 yrs old and had his face made ugly --- of course, the fact that there is no evidence that they DIDN'T, must prove it's true (according to your reasoning). Are you really that dumb, or are you winding me up?

I fail to see the relevence of and of your response to the matter at hand:


The probability of Henry Kissinger being visited by aliens is extremely low, the probability that a teenager acts in various forms of behavior that are common amoung teenagers is very high. You cannot say definately that Kissinger was visited by aliens or not. You can say that the probability of that occurance is very low. On the other hand I can say that the probability of a teenaged person will mirror the common actions found in other teenagers is extremely high. You don't know for certain, I don't know for certain, however my postulation coincides with common understanding of teenagers and yours is extremely improbable.

You don't understand because you want to throw tempertantrums, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....

[Sevivon1913]

The probability of Henry Kissinger being visited by aliens is extremely low, the probability that a teenager acts in various forms of behavior that are common amoung teenagers is very high. You cannot say definately that Kissinger was visited by aliens or not. You can say that the probability of that occurance is very low. On the other hand I can say that the probability of a teenaged person will mirror the common actions found in other teenagers is extremely high. You don't know for certain, I don't know for certain, however my postulation coincides with common understanding of teenagers and yours is extremely improbable.

You don't understand because you want to throw tempertantrums, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....


Mmm hmm.

So where's the evidence for the destruction of texts that implicate Jesus as a copy-cat of previous saviour-cults? And did any of it survive to this day, which clearly states elements about a particular saviour god which mirror aspects of Jesus and was written prior to his existence?

By the way, do you know if the Hindu Trinity predates Christianity? I have been trying to find out how old it is, but have been unsuccessful so far. It seems highly unlikely that they copied it from Christians (and it definately existed in India prior to the European presence there).