"Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"

[headheart]

Ray C. Stedman from one of his lectures in 1975-76 titled 'The Deeping Darkness' opens with the following stanza:


It may seem strange to preach a Christmas message from the latter part of the first chapter of Romans, but I think this section is exceedingly appropriate. Romans is probably the most contemporary, the most continuously up-to-date human document that ever has been written. In this chapter, Paul has been analyzing the civilization of the 1st century Roman Empire. He describes the moral life of great cities like Ephesus and Corinth and Rome. But the letter describes exactly what happened last night in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Palo Alto, and New York. The moral climate of today is the same as the moral climate of the 1st century Paul wrote about. That gives rise to the question, "Just how much progress have we made in twenty centuries of human existence?"


Further on he asks a rather pointed question and the subject of my enquiry to the Historians of TWeb. Let me point out, I am not doing this to engage in an argument or debate, but simply to milk your nucleus as to your corporate conclusions on this question:

"Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"

(To read the full article please use the following link. It will help to get the context of this man's very interesting exploration or summary of the collapse of the Kingdoms of man...it is not complete, hence you corporate wisdom is my need. Thanks.)

Link to "The Deepening Darkness" (http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3503.html) - which is part of a full lecture in both pdf, mp3 and I think Word.doc

[jason]

I would suggest that part of the reason for expressed and normalised sexual immorality being an early sign of decay of a civilisation is because it signals a serious problem within the citizenry of the idea of self control.

Any civilisation if it is going to function is going to need responsible citizens and sexual license in the name of "expression" and "freedom" show an unwillingness to have the needed self-control.

After all the sexual drives are pretty basic to people and quite powerful, and it takes genuine self-control and discipline to control such things.

So I think sexual license is a pointer to a deeper nihilism and irresponsibility within the culture.

thats my guess anyway.

Jason

[Sevivon1913]

"Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"

It isn't. Notions of sexual immorality are merely symptons of the true source of the end of civilisations: dogmatic and backward religious superstition.

Sevi

[Minnesota]

"Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"
Why do you assume it is?

[Piebald]

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[Stabbytheclown]

You mean like those Greeks who tolerated homosexuality and only lasted six hundred years before -bam!- they were conquered by the tolerant-of-homosexuality Romans?

[rmwilliamsjr]

"Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"

why are you assuming what you really need to show is a fact.
first you have to define sexual immorality, then you have to find disintegrating civilizations and then you have to show a causative link between the sexual mores and the disintegration.

Germany in the last days of WW2 seems to qualify as a disintegrating civilization.
Basically every female in the Soviet zone was gang raped by the Soviet Army as a result of direct orders from Stalin and the proclivities of the soldiers. But just as obviously the rapes were not the cause of the disintegration but the response to it.

but please, try to link civilization with the stability of the family and the stability of the family to sexual controls, which is the usual route for this argument.

[Jillyn'Toast]

I posted something similar to this in the poli sci forum. A 14th century Muslim theoriest wrote this:


Among the things that corrupt sedentary culture, there is the disposition toward pleasures and indulgence in them, because of the great luxury (that prevails). It leads to diversification of the desires of the belly for pleasurable food and drink. This is followed by diversification of the pleasures of sex through various ways of sexual intercourse, such as adultery and homosexuality. This leads to destruction of the (human) species. It may come about indirectly, through the confusion concerning one's descent caused by adultery. Nobody knows his own son, since he is illegitimate and since the sperm (of different men) got mixed up in the womb. The natural compassion a man feels for his children and his feeling of responsibility for them is lost. Thus, they perish, and this leads to the end of the (human) species. Or, the destruction of the (human) species may come about directly, as is the case with homosexuality, which leads directly to the non-existence of offspring. It contributes more to the destruction of the (human) species (than adultery), since it leads to (the result) that no human beings are brought into existence, while adultery only leads to the (social) non-existence of those who are in existence. Therefore, the school of Malik is more explicit and correct with regard to homosexuality than the other schools. This shows that it understands the intentions of the religious law and their bearing upon the (public) interest better (than the other legal schools).

I think that it's an interesting thought on the topic. His basic argument was that a society begins with a group seeking out resources to meet their basic needs. But, once a society develops further to a point where basic necessities are not struggled for, then they seek comfort and luxury. The society is decieved into thinking these are the new necessities. And, then, they begin the immoral decline. In other chapters, he says the decline with start with the ruling authority. He compares the ruling authority and civilization to form and matter. If one is ruined, the other is ruined as well. :shrug: Just something I thought was interesting.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I'd add in that sexuality is an integral part of the marriage relationship. Marriage is about desire and when that desire is flaunted elsewhere, then marriage breaks down. When marriage breaks down, then family breaks down and family is the main moral unit of society.

[Jillyn'Toast]

I'd add in that sexuality is an integral part of the marriage relationship. Marriage is about desire and when that desire is flaunted elsewhere, then marriage breaks down. When marriage breaks down, then family breaks down and family is the main moral unit of society.

Ya, that actually is the point Khaldun was making. Once you break down social ties within a family, you have a weaker group of people as far as that civilization is concerned.

[headheart]

Thank-you for all your thoughts, so far. I remember reading a very good paper on this and agree with the general direction of this thread.

Does not the scripture itself declare that 'the marriage bed should be undefiled.'

I live in a country where the divorce rate is sky high. How long before my country begins the steep but definite decline into disintergration, or rather how far down has it already slipped down, or will the presense of true children of God redeem the decline ? (...thinking of the dialogue between Abraham 'the friend of God' and God concerning Sodom and Gommorah...it seems that there was as is recorded in Romans, 'not one righteous, no not one')> Where does that leave us, will our prayers / petitions to God make a difference ? I believe so, that is why I began to pray for America, I hope that you will pray (http://www.family.org/faith/a000000894.cfm) for South Africa.

Mark Fried, spokesman for the National Day of Prayer is quoted in the above link: 'pray' -

"In every situation where God is being asked to leave the public arena, it is absolutely essential that we go to Him first in prayer — and pray for His will to be done, not our will, but His will; and for it to be done right here on Earth."

I always enjoyed the work of Dr. Francis Schaeffer, especially the 'Christian Manifesto'.

I have been receiving mail from Dr. James Dobson for awhile now and he seems to be championing the cause of the family in America, with his site which is called: Focus on the Family (http://www.family.org/) <- What think ye Americanos ?

Shalom.

[Sheepdog]

i wouldn't stop at sexual immorality. before the Roman Empire collapsed, they engaged in what is now called "bread and circuses." civil unrest was already threatening the empire, to the caesars sought to placate the masses through cheap food and dumb entertainment.

sound familiar? excessive welfare, anyone? how about Hollywood? there is a great book on my wish-list called Amusing Ourselves To Death (http://www.amazon.com/Amusing-Ourselves-Death-Discourse-Business/dp/014303653X/sr=8-2/qid=1165261312/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-5639452-4953565?ie=UTF8&s=books). granted, the mind-numbing entertainment on TV and the "silver screen," is not state sponsored, but other than that the parallel is frightening.

[headheart]

i wouldn't stop at sexual immorality. before the Roman Empire collapsed, they engaged in what is now called "bread and circuses." civil unrest was already threatening the empire, to the caesars sought to placate the masses through cheap food and dumb entertainment.


Thanks for that Sheepdog; you got me on a roll...I hope it is not a sesame plugged with garbage....,

But certainly the biggest corrupting influence in seemingly ALL countries is the powerful influence that Television has. As Roger Waters said, 'This species has amused itself to death'. I am not sure about the statistics but your reference to Unholy Wood certainly pumps out 'pornographic images' with a consistency of a broken tap. What the people want is what the people get...just keeping the customers satisfied etc. This type of consumerism has long embraced the religious machine and it seems we are like sponges on the couch, as you rightly say, with a six pack of beers, or a liter of coke, and MacDonalds or Kentucky soaked in MSG in one hand and the remote control in the other. Though our artries are crying out give us a break the glittering screen is disintergrating families social lives.

We had just received the Sacrament of Television in our country and we had acquired a tiny black and white box, with a pretty silver aerial. We stood outside having what probably would be the last family and friends event; called a 'braaivlies' simply 'burn meat' - not a healthy practice, but back then it was a social event. (people talked to each other, not the hollow minded zoids we were yet to become). My Canadian friend turned to me and said, "Just you watch how television destroys your social life..." But not only that it breaks down the need to interact between family members, and worst of all the propoganda toy as one prominent South African evangelist put it as he remembered the words on the box as they wheeled in his big screen, "BRINGING THE WORLD INTO YOUR HOME"...- Now the term 'world' might just simply mean 'the cosmos'; but in the spiritual sense to which he was referring it meant, 'lust'.

I have often wondered if television is the 'beast' spoken of in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, but it is probably more accurate to say the ether we dance upon day by day is a cess pool of human filfth...or at least a place that our teenagers can easily access some of the most horrifying images on the Internet. Sad, in our society the term 'blush' is almost becoming something that only applies to lipstick. Instead of being alone in the dark in one room together, we are not alone in our own rooms with the flickering screen connected to the big heart.

European television is pretty in your face and I am not informed to the abundance of hard core Pornography on television in the USA, but I know what our television has grown from it's inception to now. First, it was innocent flashing...but now it is full sex postures for the whole world to see. It is after all our thought life where the cancer of degradation grows most profoundly...to quote the words of Jesus:

And Jesus said, 'Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.'

Perhaps civilization has already disintegrated but we are just to warped to notice how far gone we are. I know for a fact if I replayed the Christian Manifesto by Dr. Francis Schaeffer and then checked the date, I would say that civilization has long reached it's sell by date.

Amused to death should perhaps read, 'Dead and dying'...or simply 'Embalmed by Internet Ether in the form of pornographic images....and ofcourse junk food to the belt and popping....' :sigh:

[headheart]

** Child porn's burgeoning market alarming

National Coalition for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC)
reports Internet source for child porn, making it difficult to
control. U.S. Customs Service estimates more than 100,000 child
porn Web sites. Typical profile of those convicted of downloading
child porn: A highly educated, white, middle-aged married man in
a professional occupation with no criminal history. An increasing
number of child porn victims are toddlers and babies. Hope does
exist: online service providers agree to establish a database to
help authorities reduce distribution of child porn images, major
credit card companies vow to work with law enforcement agencies
and President Bush signs act, which authorizes charging with a
felony convicted child molesters who fail to register on a
national database and $150,000 fine for anyone who downloads
Internet child pornography and minimum 30-year prison sentence
for those convicted of raping a child. "For every picture these
people possess, a child had to be abused to make it," says
NCMEC's Michelle Collins.

AG-NEWS: Monday, December 04, 2006



Though the following quote is identifying the USA problem, without a doubt this problem is world wide and it is enough to alert us that either we are at the first sign, or we have moved into the second and third signs or beyond. It is definitely a red light situation and I wonder if the fines and imprisonments are merely a band-aid to the obvious degredation ?

It is without a doubt that if the Christians do not go to serious prayer for a revival of holiness and purity, we are set to boil with Mr. Frog.

A more complete article by John W. Kennedy reads:-

** CHILD PORN'S BURGEONING MARKET ALARMING

Boundaries that kept child pornography in check have vanished,
obliterated both by technology that enables users to be secretive
and a society that largely has lost a sense of shame.

"Fifteen years ago, someone who had a proclivity to a child didn't
tell anyone because he knew he would be ostracized," says Michelle
Collins, director of the Exploited Child Unit of the National
Coalition for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC). "Now they have a
sense of validation and community."

Diligent government customs and postal inspection of overseas
materials minimized child pornography a quarter of a century ago.
Now, the U.S. Customs Service estimates more than 100,000 child porn
Web sites help fuel a multibillion-dollar industry.

"Once the Internet came to be, law enforcement could no longer
control what consumers look at or where they download it from,"
Collins says. Multitudes of Americans are willing to spend $70 a
month to access images, even live webcasts. For the most part,
readily available technology enables users to remain anonymous,
luring more people into the deviant behavior all the time.

"A lot of people who never would have been involved before are
acting on their curiosity because child porn is so easily
accessible," says Parry Aftab, founder of WiredSafety, the world's
largest Internet safety group with 11,000 volunteers, some of whom
help track child pornography.

"We see an amazing number of cases of offenders who would never risk
obtaining materials before for fear of being traced," Collins says.
"With the Internet, they can sit in the privacy of their home, or
office, and often get away with it."

But some are caught. For example, during one week in August cases
included:

* A 40-year-old Alpharetta, Georgia, father accused of molesting his
three daughters and tailoring the abuse to viewer requests sent to
an Internet chat room.

* The former mayor of Ashland, Kentucky, 61, leaving federal prison
after serving a 42-month sentence for child pornography possession.

* The former Wapakoneta, Ohio, police chief, 53, sentenced to a
six-year prison term for downloading images of nude children on his
work computer.

* An ex-Louisiana Department of Social Services employee, 63,
ordered to serve seven years in prison after child porn was
discovered on his computer.

* A 24-year-old Beavercreek, Oregon, Baptist high school teacher
arrested on a child porn charge in an FBI investigation.

* A 43-year-old self-employed Freehold, New Jersey, contractor
indicted on hundreds of counts of child sex assault and child
pornography involving 11 children ages 23 months to 8 years.

The typical profile of those convicted of downloading child porn? A
highly educated, white, middle-aged married man in a professional
occupation with no criminal history.

"This is happening in seemingly perfect homes," Collins says.

Even churchgoers aren't immune.

VIEWING, THEN PARTICIPATING

A lot of those tempted by child porn go beyond observation. The
users in many cases are also abusers. "Everybody can be a
publisher," Aftab says. "You just have to have a webcam. A lot of
trusted members of the community are molesting children they know or
even their own children."

According to Collins, of the identified children featured in child
porn online, a parent or stepparent abuses 40 percent of the
victims, with an additional 10 percent mistreated by another
relative. A family friend, neighbor, teacher, coach or other mentor
molests about 30 percent.

"The vast majority are abused by an adult they are supposed to be
able to trust," Collins says. "It's common for children not to tell
anyone because they have been threatened."

At its Alexandria, Virginia, headquarters, NCMEC partners with the
FBI, Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the U.S. Postal
Inspection Service, the U.S. Secret Service, Department of Justice
and Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force.

NCMEC has collected information regarding the identification of 775
children who have been sexually abused in child porn images or
videos. But NCMEC's CyberTipline receives 1,400 reports of child
porn per week.

NCMEC tries to identify the source of the Web sites, but digital
camera equipment eliminates the need for outsiders' involvement. An
increasing number of those who suffer are toddlers and even babies
who can't relate information about the abuse.

Experts say the majority of child porn users aren't clinically
defined as pedophiles but rather "mainstream" porn customers looking
for something new to titillate them.

Among those adults who have been clinically diagnosed as pedophiles
(having a primary sexual interest in children), there is a new
boldness. Traditionally isolated and clandestine, now they share
free peer-to-peer network files and spend hours in chat rooms and on
bulletin boards talking about their insatiable demand for new
images.

Pedophile Web sites serve as a forum for abusers to validate their
feelings of sexual attraction to children. They also provide tips
for how to seduce children and how to avoid law enforcement
detection. Some sites suggest a good place to look for targets is
church, and they list events ranging from Easter egg hunts to summer
camps.

"They now have a sense of community," Collins says. "Many think,
'I'm not so odd after all since there are all these others like
me.'"

How did this happen? The sexual revolution, legalized abortion,
unfettered "adult" pornography and homosexual rights all played a
role in changing morals.

"We have become desensitized to almost all kinds of sexual behavior
and attitudes," says Gary R. Allen, Ministerial Enrichment national
director for the Assemblies of God. "Undisciplined sexuality in a
society leads to a greater propensity toward addictions and
perversions, including child pornography."

Yet there are signs of hope.

NCMEC has instigated efforts to stifle child porn at its source. A
coalition of online service providers earlier this year agreed to
establish a database to help authorities reduce distribution of
child porn images. At about the same time, major credit card
companies vowed to work with law enforcement agencies in sharing
information to make it more difficult for child porn users to open
new accounts and process transactions. Collins says one
investigation in Texas revealed more than 40,000 consumers had used
credit cards to purchase child porn from a single site.

In July, President Bush signed the Adam Walsh Child Protection and
Safety Act, which authorizes charging with a felony convicted child
molesters who fail to register on a national database. The law also
provides for a $150,000 fine for anyone who downloads Internet child
pornography and a minimum 30-year prison sentence for those
convicted of raping a child.

Experts concede law enforcement personnel can't arrest their way out
of the crisis. The number of caseloads is overwhelming and new sites
pop up as soon as others are shut down.

At the root of it, child porn isn't just about sexuality, Allen
says. "It has to do with control and insecurities, about the desire
to dominate children," he says. "It's about abusing others and using
sexuality to express dysfunctional behavior."

The long-term damage from such crimes is staggering.

"For every picture these people possess, a child had to be abused to
make it," Collins says.

--John W. Kennedy, Today's Pentecostal Evangel

[Tladatsi]

What is "sexualy immorality"? This is a very loaded term. What this usually means is that women begin to act with equal sexual liberty as men have. It is not the first sign of the "disintegration" of civilization, it is a sign of civilization.

Ray C. Stedman from one of his lectures in 1975-76 titled 'The Deeping Darkness' opens with the following stanza:



Further on he asks a rather pointed question and the subject of my enquiry to the Historians of TWeb. Let me point out, I am not doing this to engage in an argument or debate, but simply to milk your nucleus as to your corporate conclusions on this question:

"Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"

(To read the full article please use the following link. It will help to get the context of this man's very interesting exploration or summary of the collapse of the Kingdoms of man...it is not complete, hence you corporate wisdom is my need. Thanks.)

Link to "The Deepening Darkness" (http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3503.html) - which is part of a full lecture in both pdf, mp3 and I think Word.doc

[Sheepdog]

with respect to sexuality on TV in the States, we are actually quite conservative compared to the rest of the Western world. rules for public TV are still very restrictive. the pornography, and "T&A" style television is on cable, and usually only on the premium stations.

I'd like to remind folks reading this thread that sexual immorality is only one aspect of the problems i see with mass media.


there have been some very sobering comment by Ted Koppel:

Koppel said, "We have reconstructed the Tower of Babel, and it is a television antenna: 1,000 voices producing a daily parody of democracy, in which everyone's opinion is afforded equal weight regardless of substance or merit." In Koppel's assessment, "We now communicate with everyone and say absolutely nothing." He has described his own industry as "the shepherd constantly checking to see which way the sheep are headed; and then racing to overtake the flock so that he can be perceived as its leader. And whatever happens outside or beyond the scrutiny of television simply does not exist." In a commencement address at Stanford in 1986, Koppel described America as "nation of electronic voyeurs, whose capacity for dialogue is a fading memory, occasionally jolted into reflective life by a one-liner."

from: http://www.nndb.com/people/147/000024075/

that was in the 80's by the way.

[Sheepdog]

What is "sexualy immorality"? This is a very loaded term. What this usually means is that women begin to act with equal sexual liberty as men have.

really? i have never heard it used in that sense. typically the term includes when men act with "sexual liberty" of "men." (as defined by our affluent societies.)

perhaps you can provide specific examples

It is not the first sign of the "disintegration" of civilization, it is a sign of civilization.

so the Romans had no civilization? you'll have to rewrite a vast number of tomes on history. the Romans saw men as having absolute sexual freedom while women were just above slaves in status. and yet, historians as far as I know define Roman civilization the precursor to modern Western civilizations.

[jason]

i wouldn't stop at sexual immorality. before the Roman Empire collapsed, they engaged in what is now called "bread and circuses." civil unrest was already threatening the empire, to the caesars sought to placate the masses through cheap food and dumb entertainment.

sound familiar? excessive welfare, anyone? how about Hollywood? there is a great book on my wish-list called Amusing Ourselves To Death (http://www.amazon.com/Amusing-Ourselves-Death-Discourse-Business/dp/014303653X/sr=8-2/qid=1165261312/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-5639452-4953565?ie=UTF8&s=books). granted, the mind-numbing entertainment on TV and the "silver screen," is not state sponsored, but other than that the parallel is frightening.
That is it isn't it.

I don't think sexual immorality is the problem as such, but a general narcisism and lack of control that these are almost necessary by products of.

It is a symptom of a deeper problem in a decaying culture, not the cause of the decay.

BTW, I think the symptom is that sexual perversion is acceptable and "mainstreamed" not that some people in the culture engage in the behavior.

Jason

[Sheepdog]

don't get me started on the narcissism. :rant:

[jason]

don't get me started on the narcissism. :rant:
Does that mean you agree with me ?

[Sheepdog]

yes

[James Peter]

With regards to Rome is there really any evidence that Rome was more sexually immoral in the late fourth century (you know, around when it started to really decline in the West) than in the first century BCE (you know, just before it began to reach its height) or than in the fourth century BCE (before it became a great civilisation at all)? I don't think so. I think for every period you find people harping on about how a lack of the virtue of their ancestors is the cause of the ills of the day but that certainly isn't confined to a lack of sexual virtue.

Secondly, and relatedly, why is there the assumption that for the family unit to work it has to be built upon the model of 'one man, one woman and then children'? The ancients managed to supplement that with concubines (mostly slaves) without any real negative effects. In ancient Athens a man having sex with teenage boys didn't destroy the fabric of society did it? It was going on all the time that Greece was becoming great.

It isn't sexual immorality itself that leads to the collapse of civilisations but rather it is the rejection of the fundamental values of that civilisation but a large enough percentage of the population. That makes the civilisation no longer unified and leads to unrest (of course there can be other sources of unrest too) and makes the civilisation less able to fight her foes. A strong civilisation is a unified one.

Incidently common religion has been essential to pretty much every great civilisation up until the modern day (and I'm not convinced that the modern USA should be described as a 'great civilisation - although it does, mostly, have a common religion anyway). Common religion is the basis of shared morality usually which, as I've already said, leads to a strong cohesive society.

It is when people break the rules that there are problems, not when the rules themselves are immoral by our modern, western standards (unless of course the rules are inherently destructive).

[Tladatsi]

Yo, 'Sup S-Dawg,

Rome is a great example. For hundreds of years, indeed from the earliest days, as you rightly note, Roman men could do pretty much whatever they wanted with whom or whatever they wanted (check out the art work at Pompeii or the stories about Julius Caeser as a youth), at least among the upper classes. So if sexual licience is some sort of measure of sexual "immorality", Rome was immoral from day 1. Yet many writers, ancient and modern, will say that Rome became "decadent" or "sexually immoral" only after the Imperium. Why is this? What was more "decadent" in the later Empire than the earlier Republic that illicits this assessment? I think no small part was the sexual liberty that at least upper class women were able to practice, more or less on par with upper class men. That was quite shocking to contemporary Romans and later writers as well. It was this level of gender equity which seems to offer these sorts of descriptions of "sexual immorality".


really? i have never heard it used in that sense. typically the term includes when men act with "sexual liberty" of "men." (as defined by our affluent societies.)

perhaps you can provide specific examples



so the Romans had no civilization? you'll have to rewrite a vast number of tomes on history. the Romans saw men as having absolute sexual freedom while women were just above slaves in status. and yet, historians as far as I know define Roman civilization the precursor to modern Western civilizations.

[shunyadragon]

Ray C. Stedman from one of his lectures in 1975-76 titled 'The Deeping Darkness' opens with the following stanza:



Further on he asks a rather pointed question and the subject of my enquiry to the Historians of TWeb. Let me point out, I am not doing this to engage in an argument or debate, but simply to milk your nucleus as to your corporate conclusions on this question:

"Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"

(To read the full article please use the following link. It will help to get the context of this man's very interesting exploration or summary of the collapse of the Kingdoms of man...it is not complete, hence you corporate wisdom is my need. Thanks.)

Link to "The Deepening Darkness" (http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3503.html) - which is part of a full lecture in both pdf, mp3 and I think Word.doc

The problem with any generalization about history that contains the word 'always' is that it is 'always' wrong.

Other noted causes in history are sudden climate changes and invasion and conquest by another civilization.

[Thinking Madly]

Hm, very interesting. The fact that many acts that are perceived as immora lcan be assimilated into society without any real consequence may be the reasons that morality can sometimes become hazy in a society.
That makes it a little difficult to define what is moral and immoral. If you can't define immorality by saying "immorality is detrimental to society as a whole," then what can you define it by? As some pointed out earlier, boy-man relationships in Greece didn't seem to have any detrimental impact on its society. Or did it? I'd assume that it'd have a negative psychological impact on the young boys. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd really like to hear it. Since I've not explored this aspect of Greek society very much, the assumption could be wrong.

Any ideas on this topic? Thanks.

[shunyadragon]

Yo, 'Sup S-Dawg,

Rome is a great example. For hundreds of years, indeed from the earliest days, as you rightly note, Roman men could do pretty much whatever they wanted with whom or whatever they wanted (check out the art work at Pompeii or the stories about Julius Caeser as a youth), at least among the upper classes. So if sexual licience is some sort of measure of sexual "immorality", Rome was immoral from day 1. Yet many writers, ancient and modern, will say that Rome became "decadent" or "sexually immoral" only after the Imperium. Why is this? What was more "decadent" in the later Empire than the earlier Republic that illicits this assessment? I think no small part was the sexual liberty that at least upper class women were able to practice, more or less on par with upper class men. That was quite shocking to contemporary Romans and later writers as well. It was this level of gender equity which seems to offer these sorts of descriptions of "sexual immorality".

All through history the rich and powerful could essentially do what they want, decadent is fairly common in recent history and in most ancient civilization. Check out the OT.
So, ah . . . what's new?

[Minnesota]

Hm, very interesting. The fact that many acts that are perceived as immora lcan be assimilated into society without any real consequence may be the reasons that morality can sometimes become hazy in a society.
That makes it a little difficult to define what is moral and immoral. If you can't define immorality by saying "immorality is detrimental to society as a whole," then what can you define it by? As some pointed out earlier, boy-man relationships in Greece didn't seem to have any detrimental impact on its society. Or did it? I'd assume that it'd have a negative psychological impact on the young boys. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd really like to hear it. Since I've not explored this aspect of Greek society very much, the assumption could be wrong.

Any ideas on this topic? Thanks.
I would think that as a conservative Christian you would take as moral and immoral whatever the Bible and your particular brand of faith told you. Not so?

[Thinking Madly]

Of course it is so. I'm just interested in knowing where one would draw the line on these matters given the society doesn't g/o by ideas in the Bible. I'm asking for thoughts on that. That's all.

[shunyadragon]

Of course it is so. I'm just interested in knowing where one would draw the line on these matters given the society doesn't g/o by ideas in the Bible. I'm asking for thoughts on that. That's all.

Like the bobbing plastic Jesus on the dashboard?

[FreezBee]

Ray C. Stedman from one of his lectures in 1975-76 titled 'The Deeping Darkness' opens with the following stanza ..

:ill: I am allergic to stedman

Further on he asks a rather pointed question and the subject of my enquiry to the Historians of TWeb. Let me point out, I am not doing this to engage in an argument or debate, but simply to milk your nucleus as to your corporate conclusions on this question:

"Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"

(To read the full article please use the following link. It will help to get the context of this man's very interesting exploration or summary of the collapse of the Kingdoms of man...it is not complete, hence you corporate wisdom is my need. Thanks.)

Link to "The Deepening Darkness" (http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3503.html) - which is part of a full lecture in both pdf, mp3 and I think Word.doc

Thanks for the link anyway :smile:


So the question is: "Why is sexual immorality the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"

As others have pointed, we need better proof of this than what Paul wrote in Romans. And which civilization was disintegrating at that time?

Social changes come in batches, and sice reproduction is a major part of the determinant of society, sexual rules will change whenever anything else will.

Don't forget that even accepting marriage (which no one should be forced to do!), there is quite a variety of morals around it. Think about it. Arranged marriages, even where the bride is bought vs. marriage where the two parties choose each other. And polygami vs. monogami.

And forbidden fruit is after all tasty :yum:


I personally doubt the validity of stedman's claim, also because he speaks from an absolute moral pov. We might as well ask: "why is silly questions the first sign of a disintegrating civilization?"


- FreezBee

[safronlove]

Yes it is oblivious and natural....

[Zeluvia]

Maybe its not sexual immorality, but gluttony that first signals a nation's decay = p

That would be an unpopular veiwpoint in America today, now wouldn't it....

[FreezBee]

Maybe its not sexual immorality, but gluttony that first signals a nation's decay = p

That would be an unpopular veiwpoint in America today, now wouldn't it....

But sexual immorality is a kind of gluttony, isn't it?

- FreezBee

[Zeluvia]

I don't think so....

I think there is a difference between lust, gluttony and greed, ....

you could as well say gluttony was a type of greed....but I think the words are better in their specific meanings....

I don't find sex immoral, unless it is selfish sex, using people for your own satisfaction...and that is related to lust...

that is how it relates to both gluttony and greed....gluttony is all about over consumption for self satisfaction, and greed ...well that is just self satisfaction in aquiring items...

right?

So, greed, gluttony and lust ...or pursuit of self-interests to the exclusion of, or out of harmony with, the interests of the society could be the signals of the downfall of said society....instead of just saying its "sexual immorality" which is not a well defined term.

For example, I think that porn USED to be highly exploitative of women, but I also think modern women that choose to enter the sex industry in Western society are better protected and less exploited, which redeems that industry. The same for prostitution where it is legal, and protected. Therefore, while these economic industries used to be areas of exploitation and therefore "immoral" to my values, they are becoming more "moral". I do not consider sexual acts between consenting adults to ever be "immoral".

[FreezBee]

I don't think so....

I think there is a difference between lust, gluttony and greed, ....

you could as well say gluttony was a type of greed....but I think the words are better in their specific meanings....

Possibly a meaningful objection :thumb:


I don't find sex immoral, unless it is selfish sex, using people for your own satisfaction...and that is related to lust...

that is how it relates to both gluttony and greed....gluttony is all about over consumption for self satisfaction, and greed ...well that is just self satisfaction in aquiring items...

right?

But why aquire those items? If they are not neede, what are they replacing?


So, greed, gluttony and lust ...or pursuit of self-interests to the exclusion of, or out of harmony with, the interests of the society could be the signals of the downfall of said society....instead of just saying its "sexual immorality" which is not a well defined term.

You are quite right that "sexual immorality" is not well-defined, ever do right. It is a moving target, actuality. One of these days zoophilia may become trendy, just possibly.


For example, I think that porn USED to be highly exploitative of women, but I also think modern women that choose to enter the sex industry in Western society are better protected and less exploited, which redeems that industry. The same for prostitution where it is legal, and protected. Therefore, while these economic industries used to be areas of exploitation and therefore "immoral" to my values, they are becoming more "moral".

Have these industries changed, or is it simply your way of looking at them that has changed?


I do not consider sexual acts between consenting adults to ever be "immoral".

I fully agree, but I think that Ray Stedman looks at this differently. He probably considers sex outside marriage immoral no matter the age and mutual consent of those involved. Immorality is here a deviation from a certain absolute standard.


- FreezBee