Teleology of the Universe

[whag]

What was the purpose of the universe? The ultimate heat death is a staggering amount of years away. If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.

I find this the most interesting conundrums of western religion, particularly Christianity. If the ultimate environment for which we are destined is another supernatural dimension , not earth, then the only conclusion we can reach is that earth is a kind of "pre-stage" for humanity. If earth was always meant to be the pre-stage for humanity, then the fall of human beings seems inevitable to set the stage for whatever God planned for after the death of the sun (which, if we're alive at the time, will end us) and ultimate death of the WHOLE physical universe.

I said this to my Christian aunt-in-law this morning. My wife and I went to church with her and the pastor was preaching on Eden being the location of humanity's biggest blunder. After church, she reiterated that humanity screwed up in Eden, and that everything would be alright forever if that blunder hadn't occured. I patiently explained why that makes no sense, but she didn't get it.

[Truthseeker]

You've started from implicit assumptions, one of which is that the best theorems (sometimes called "laws") of physics currently are close to realism and are comprehensive enough for you to reach that conclusion.

[whag]

You've started from implicit assumptions, one of which is that the best theorems (sometimes called "laws") of physics currently are close to realism and are comprehensive enough for you to reach that conclusion.

In what way are the physical and heat death conclusions far from realism? Moreover, what are the ramifications to Christian theistic model if the "assumptions" about that are true?

[shunyadragon]

You've started from implicit assumptions, one of which is that the best theorems (sometimes called "laws") of physics currently are close to realism and are comprehensive enough for you to reach that conclusion.

They sure are!

[Jedidiah]

If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.

I find this the most interesting conundrums of western religion, particularly Christianity. If the ultimate environment for which we are destined is another supernatural dimension , not earth, then the only conclusion we can reach is that earth is a kind of "pre-stage" for humanity. If earth was always meant to be the pre-stage for humanity, then the fall of human beings seems inevitable to set the stage for whatever God planned for after the death of the sun (which, if we're alive at the time, will end us) and ultimate death of the WHOLE physical universe.

I said this to my Christian aunt-in-law this morning. My wife and I went to church with her and the pastor was preaching on Eden being the location of humanity's biggest blunder. After church, she reiterated that humanity screwed up in Eden, and that everything would be alright forever if that blunder hadn't occured. I patiently explained why that makes no sense, but she didn't get it.

False dichotomy.

[shunyadragon]

What was the purpose of the universe? The ultimate heat death is a staggering amount of years away. If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.

I find this the most interesting conundrums of western religion, particularly Christianity. If the ultimate environment for which we are destined is another supernatural dimension , not earth, then the only conclusion we can reach is that earth is a kind of "pre-stage" for humanity. If earth was always meant to be the pre-stage for humanity, then the fall of human beings seems inevitable to set the stage for whatever God planned for after the death of the sun (which, if we're alive at the time, will end us) and ultimate death of the WHOLE physical universe.

This is close to the view of the Baha'i Faith. The earth is the nursery of the souls, and the journey is through many worlds. There are many worlds, and universes in the physical realms, likely infinite in number. There are also infinite spiritual worlds for the journey of the souls beyond this world.

The definition of what is 'life' also differs in the Baha'i writings. In science life begins with the first reproducing organisms. In the Baha'i writings the physical realms are alive in an evolving nature at all levels in an evolving physical and spiritual nature of an infinite Creation.

[bling]

What was the purpose of the universe? The ultimate heat death is a staggering amount of years away. If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.

I find this the most interesting conundrums of western religion, particularly Christianity. If the ultimate environment for which we are destined is another supernatural dimension , not earth, then the only conclusion we can reach is that earth is a kind of "pre-stage" for humanity. If earth was always meant to be the pre-stage for humanity, then the fall of human beings seems inevitable to set the stage for whatever God planned for after the death of the sun (which, if we're alive at the time, will end us) and ultimate death of the WHOLE physical universe.

I said this to my Christian aunt-in-law this morning. My wife and I went to church with her and the pastor was preaching on Eden being the location of humanity's biggest blunder. After church, she reiterated that humanity screwed up in Eden, and that everything would be alright forever if that blunder hadn't occured. I patiently explained why that makes no sense, but she didn't get it.

You show a lot of good logic in your OP which I agree with.

You are right to conclude: “sin was inevitable”, but the follow up question might also be: “was it necessary to help humans fulfill their earthly objective?”

The Bible does not describe Adam and Eve’s first sin as a “fall” so was it more a transition?

Is sin the problem or is the problem with human’s willingness to humble themselves to the point of accept God’s pure charity in the form of forgiveness?

All mature adults have an earthly objective that can only be fulfilled in an earthly type place where you have a true free will choice with likely alternatives.

[whag]

You show a lot of good logic in your OP which I agree with.

You are right to conclude: “sin was inevitable”, but the follow up question might also be: “was it necessary to help humans fulfill their earthly objective?”

What was the earthly objective and how was sin necessary to help fulfill it?

The Bible does not describe Adam and Eve’s first sin as a “fall” so was it more a transition?

That's what I was getting at. It'd have to be a transition since the earth and universe weren't designed to last forever.

Is sin the problem or is the problem with human’s willingness to humble themselves to the point of accept God’s pure charity in the form of forgiveness?

I don't see the distinction between "sin" and the lack of humility to accept forgiveness. Theologians would call those equal.

All mature adults have an earthly objective that can only be fulfilled in an earthly type place where you have a true free will choice with likely alternatives.

I don't see how that is true. First, define the earthly objective and then explain why an "earthly type place" was needed. Eden was the original environment described in the Bible, having provision for all human need and no death. That's the opposite of what the earth really is. Death has always been extant and food has always been labored for.

[ShrimpMaster]

Hi Whag, first I would say that there is no way you would ever fully understand the answer given to this question by a Christian if you are not one yourself. I would say if you are sincerely seeking the Truth, then don't bother with your aunt’s faith and make it your own. Invite Jesus into your life and he will light the path for you.

On to your question, you stated "The ultimate heat death is a staggering amount of years away. If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.". I think this first sentence displays a few misunderstandings you have given Christian theology and this comes through later when your aunt states "After church, she reiterated that humanity screwed up in Eden, and that everything would be alright forever if that blunder hadn't occurred.".

I think we can summarize your assumption this way ‘the Earth is where humans were meant to live forever if they never sinned’. Now, I don’t see why that is true. First, the idea ‘if humanity never sinned’ is foreign to orthodox Christianity. Here is why; in orthodox Christianity, there is ‘no possible world’ where humanity never sins. It is inevitable. Why is that? This mostly lends to speculation among Christians as to why there is no possible world in which free creatures never sin. The answer I am sympathetic too is in the question itself. Free creatures will always inevitably choose to reject God and his love. Now, your response to this will lend to your bias as a believer or not. He wants you to repent. He wants you to ask for forgiveness. He wants you to trust Him. If you are not a believer your response is going to be more accusative, like ‘how could God load the deck and give me a losing hand, then make me ask for forgiveness?’, and at this point I would sincerely ask you to evaluate your own heart. Jesus wants your heart. Further, Jesus didn’t actually load the deck, because you have free choice. Humanity freely chose to reject him.

To answer the second idea of whether we are meant to live on Earth forever I would say that the bible never says we were meant to live on Earth forever. Although in Genesis, God says what he created is ‘good’, it is not indicative of his final purposes for humanity. When God blesses Adam all he tells them is to multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Further, death is apparent from the beginning when God tells Adam “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”. I don’t think God meant for us to live on earth forever if death was possible from the get-go.

Finally, it sounds like the pastor is correct in saying that Eden is the location of humanities biggest blunder, but there is no reason for your aunt to then say, 'if humanity never sinned, then we would all be good on Earth'. Mostly because it is a pointless statement given the appropriate understanding of Christian theology. There is no possible world where free creatures choose to not sin - or at least a world 'worth' making according to God (philosophical/theological speculation).

I could find some resources if you wish to delve deeper on this topic. Thanks

[whag]

N

Hi Whag, first I would say that there is no way you would ever fully understand the answer given to this question by a Christian if you are not one yourself. I would say if you are sincerely seeking the Truth, then don't bother with your aunt’s faith and make it your own. Invite Jesus into your life and he will light the path for you.

I didn't go to church with my wife and her aunt because I was seeking any truth. It's a fundamentalist church, so I knew what I was getting into.

Re: truth, I seem to have a much stronger epistemological base than the pastor.

On to your question, you stated "The ultimate heat death is a staggering amount of years away. If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.". I think this first sentence displays a few misunderstandings you have given Christian theology and this comes through later when your aunt states "After church, she reiterated that humanity screwed up in Eden, and that everything would be alright forever if that blunder hadn't occurred.".

I think we can summarize your assumption this way ‘the Earth is where humans were meant to live forever if they never sinned’. Now, I don’t see why that is true. First, the idea ‘if humanity never sinned’ is foreign to orthodox Christianity. Here is why; in orthodox Christianity, there is ‘no possible world’ where humanity never sins. It is inevitable. Why is that? This mostly lends to speculation among Christians as to why there is no possible world in which free creatures never sin. The answer I am sympathetic too is in the question itself. Free creatures will always inevitably choose to reject God and his love. Now, your response to this will lend to your bias as a believer or not. He wants you to repent. He wants you to ask for forgiveness. He wants you to trust Him. If you are not a believer your response is going to be more accusative, like ‘how could God load the deck and give me a losing hand, then make me ask for forgiveness?’, and at this point I would sincerely ask you to evaluate your own heart. Jesus wants your heart. Further, Jesus didn’t actually load the deck, because you have free choice. Humanity freely chose to reject him.

To answer the second idea of whether we are meant to live on Earth forever I would say that the bible never says we were meant to live on Earth forever. Although in Genesis, God says what he created is ‘good’, it is not indicative of his final purposes for humanity. When God blesses Adam all he tells them is to multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Further, death is apparent from the beginning when God tells Adam “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”. I don’t think God meant for us to live on earth forever if death was possible from the get-go.

Finally, it sounds like the pastor is correct in saying that Eden is the location of humanities biggest blunder, but there is no reason for your aunt to then say, 'if humanity never sinned, then we would all be good on Earth'. Mostly because it is a pointless statement given the appropriate understanding of Christian theology. There is no possible world where free creatures choose to not sin - or at least a world 'worth' making according to God (philosophical/theological speculation).

I could find some resources if you wish to delve deeper on this topic. Thanks

If sin is inevitable, then it's an essential part of the teleology. It seems to require mental gymnastics in order to get around that fact. That would make it a prerequisite to trigger the passion play that ultimately leads to the next environment. How then is that a blunder?

Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

[ShrimpMaster]

Well I think theologians would say that original sin initiated the beginning of the heat death of the universe. But we can also say the heat death was built in based on God's forknowledge of human free choice. I think the first would be more harmonious with scripture but both can be argued.

I do accept a literal Adam and Eve.

[whag]

Well I think theologians would say that original sin initiated the beginning of the heat death of the universe.

What theologians say that?

[whag]

I do accept a literal Adam and Eve.

ShrimpMaster, I don't want to discuss this with you. That quote and your claim that theologians believe my tea getting cold is Adam's fault makes me think a discussion would be fruitless. Do you agree?

[ShrimpMaster]

What theologians say that?

I don't think I have any specific material on this subject although it is sprinkled throughout various books. Genesis 2:15-17 is probably sufficient enough to imply that prior to original sin Adam could not die. That is not to say that it was God's intention for Adam to never die, or that God did not foreknow that Adam and Eve would sin.

The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Genesis 2:15-17 ESV)

[ShrimpMaster]

ShrimpMaster, I don't want to discuss this with you. That quote and your claim that theologians believe my tea getting cold is Adam's fault makes me think a discussion would be fruitless. Do you agree?

I am not sure what you mean. What would be fruitless? I am actually not sure where I stand with whether Adam and Eve are actual people or not. I usually say they are, but I could be persuaded otherwise.