Teleology of the Universe

[whag]

What was the purpose of the universe? The ultimate heat death is a staggering amount of years away. If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.

I find this the most interesting conundrums of western religion, particularly Christianity. If the ultimate environment for which we are destined is another supernatural dimension , not earth, then the only conclusion we can reach is that earth is a kind of "pre-stage" for humanity. If earth was always meant to be the pre-stage for humanity, then the fall of human beings seems inevitable to set the stage for whatever God planned for after the death of the sun (which, if we're alive at the time, will end us) and ultimate death of the WHOLE physical universe.

I said this to my Christian aunt-in-law this morning. My wife and I went to church with her and the pastor was preaching on Eden being the location of humanity's biggest blunder. After church, she reiterated that humanity screwed up in Eden, and that everything would be alright forever if that blunder hadn't occured. I patiently explained why that makes no sense, but she didn't get it.

[Truthseeker]

You've started from implicit assumptions, one of which is that the best theorems (sometimes called "laws") of physics currently are close to realism and are comprehensive enough for you to reach that conclusion.

[whag]

You've started from implicit assumptions, one of which is that the best theorems (sometimes called "laws") of physics currently are close to realism and are comprehensive enough for you to reach that conclusion.

In what way are the physical and heat death conclusions far from realism? Moreover, what are the ramifications to Christian theistic model if the "assumptions" about that are true?

[shunyadragon]

You've started from implicit assumptions, one of which is that the best theorems (sometimes called "laws") of physics currently are close to realism and are comprehensive enough for you to reach that conclusion.

They sure are!

[Jedidiah]

If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.

I find this the most interesting conundrums of western religion, particularly Christianity. If the ultimate environment for which we are destined is another supernatural dimension , not earth, then the only conclusion we can reach is that earth is a kind of "pre-stage" for humanity. If earth was always meant to be the pre-stage for humanity, then the fall of human beings seems inevitable to set the stage for whatever God planned for after the death of the sun (which, if we're alive at the time, will end us) and ultimate death of the WHOLE physical universe.

I said this to my Christian aunt-in-law this morning. My wife and I went to church with her and the pastor was preaching on Eden being the location of humanity's biggest blunder. After church, she reiterated that humanity screwed up in Eden, and that everything would be alright forever if that blunder hadn't occured. I patiently explained why that makes no sense, but she didn't get it.

False dichotomy.

[shunyadragon]

What was the purpose of the universe? The ultimate heat death is a staggering amount of years away. If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.

I find this the most interesting conundrums of western religion, particularly Christianity. If the ultimate environment for which we are destined is another supernatural dimension , not earth, then the only conclusion we can reach is that earth is a kind of "pre-stage" for humanity. If earth was always meant to be the pre-stage for humanity, then the fall of human beings seems inevitable to set the stage for whatever God planned for after the death of the sun (which, if we're alive at the time, will end us) and ultimate death of the WHOLE physical universe.

This is close to the view of the Baha'i Faith. The earth is the nursery of the souls, and the journey is through many worlds. There are many worlds, and universes in the physical realms, likely infinite in number. There are also infinite spiritual worlds for the journey of the souls beyond this world.

The definition of what is 'life' also differs in the Baha'i writings. In science life begins with the first reproducing organisms. In the Baha'i writings the physical realms are alive in an evolving nature at all levels in an evolving physical and spiritual nature of an infinite Creation.

[bling]

What was the purpose of the universe? The ultimate heat death is a staggering amount of years away. If earth was what was meant to be the sole place of our existence had we behaved, it still would eventually burn out in a finite amount of years, no matter what humanity did on earth.

I find this the most interesting conundrums of western religion, particularly Christianity. If the ultimate environment for which we are destined is another supernatural dimension , not earth, then the only conclusion we can reach is that earth is a kind of "pre-stage" for humanity. If earth was always meant to be the pre-stage for humanity, then the fall of human beings seems inevitable to set the stage for whatever God planned for after the death of the sun (which, if we're alive at the time, will end us) and ultimate death of the WHOLE physical universe.

I said this to my Christian aunt-in-law this morning. My wife and I went to church with her and the pastor was preaching on Eden being the location of humanity's biggest blunder. After church, she reiterated that humanity screwed up in Eden, and that everything would be alright forever if that blunder hadn't occured. I patiently explained why that makes no sense, but she didn't get it.

[whag]

What was the earthly objective and how was sin necessary to help fulfill it?


That's what I was getting at. It'd have to be a transition since the earth and universe weren't designed to last forever.

I don't see the distinction between "sin" and the lack of humility to accept forgiveness. Theologians would call those equal.

All mature adults have an earthly objective that can only be fulfilled in an earthly type place where you have a true free will choice with likely alternatives.

I don't see how that is true. First, define the earthly objective and then explain why an "earthly type place" was needed. Eden was the original environment described in the Bible, having provision for all human need and no death. That's the opposite of what the earth really is. Death has always been extant and food has always been labored for.

[ShrimpMaster]

[whag]

N

I didn't go to church with my wife and her aunt because I was seeking any truth. It's a fundamentalist church, so I knew what I was getting into.

Re: truth, I seem to have a much stronger epistemological base than the pastor.

If sin is inevitable, then it's an essential part of the teleology. It seems to require mental gymnastics in order to get around that fact. That would make it a prerequisite to trigger the passion play that ultimately leads to the next environment. How then is that a blunder?

Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

[ShrimpMaster]

Well I think theologians would say that original sin initiated the beginning of the heat death of the universe. But we can also say the heat death was built in based on God's forknowledge of human free choice. I think the first would be more harmonious with scripture but both can be argued.

I do accept a literal Adam and Eve.

[whag]

Well I think theologians would say that original sin initiated the beginning of the heat death of the universe.

What theologians say that?

[whag]

I do accept a literal Adam and Eve.

ShrimpMaster, I don't want to discuss this with you. That quote and your claim that theologians believe my tea getting cold is Adam's fault makes me think a discussion would be fruitless. Do you agree?

[ShrimpMaster]

What theologians say that?

I don't think I have any specific material on this subject although it is sprinkled throughout various books. Genesis 2:15-17 is probably sufficient enough to imply that prior to original sin Adam could not die. That is not to say that it was God's intention for Adam to never die, or that God did not foreknow that Adam and Eve would sin.

[ShrimpMaster]

ShrimpMaster, I don't want to discuss this with you. That quote and your claim that theologians believe my tea getting cold is Adam's fault makes me think a discussion would be fruitless. Do you agree?

I am not sure what you mean. What would be fruitless? I am actually not sure where I stand with whether Adam and Eve are actual people or not. I usually say they are, but I could be persuaded otherwise.